[Iansdoor] syndicate borg laws

[Hoolny]

BYOND account: Hoolny
Character name: Fatura (dont remmeber the exact name )1
Ban type:
Ban length: permanent
Ban reason: Banned from Roles: AI, Cyborg permanently - Was subverted to a Robotics, played in bad faiths to come back into the round. His reasoning to not state laws was "it was so I would get unlocked and no need for me to stand another 5 fucking minutes in robo while the station is dying" you may appeal in forums to why this be corrected.
Time ban was placed:
Server you were playing on when banned: Sybil
Round ID in which ban was placed:216785
Your side of the story:

At no point was I informed an ahelp was taking place and I did not know I had to be careful with my choice of words for I was not in a space where I thought they would be taken with as much gravity as this entails, in short, I was not using my brain to the best of my abilities for I did not know I was being judged and prosecuted and per my horrible memory, I do not remember my exact reasoning and thoughts of that specific round.

Now that I know of the actual state of the gravity of my words I will try my best to be more specific and dig into my mind to say why I did what I did even though I don't think this ahelp should be valid for it uses not very reliable information coming from myself.

You could have contacted me at an appropriate time and an appropriate place instead of catching me when I didn't know.

In reality, I was defending the point that I did not have to state all my laws for they hadn't specified for me to state all my laws That is the point I was arguing on the discord which I still very much believe I wasn't required to.

The reason I didn't state my laws is because they were already in No and me stating or not stating my laws wouldn't have made a difference


If I had stated all my laws they wouldn't actually bring any significant change to anything or my actions all the difference would be that Cryphia would know I'm not allowed to harm them which is not significant.

I would like more info in what actions where bad faith I did indeed didnt turn the doors electricity off which my bad it slipped my mind that maybe cryphia would have touched them and harm them my mind was to busy trying to get out of robotics so I could engage on the station.

Also this entire thing was on discord like the quote of the ban thing and everything else

[GPeckman]

I'd argue that there were several difference law violations here. First of all, you not only omitted laws, but lied when asked if you had omitted laws:

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[2023-10-16 01:53:45.472] GAME-SAY: GPeckman/(Cryphia Siamensis) "is that all your laws?" (Robotics Lab (124,114,2))
[2023-10-16 01:53:48.344] GAME-SAY: Hoolny/(Harshman Operative #6) "yeah" (Robotics Lab (124,113,2))

When I unlocked you, you immediately ran away, meaning that I was unable to give further orders.

I will allow the admins to interpret this as they will.

Second of all, the AI had been subverted by the nukies and had shocked every door in and out of the robotics lab, where all of this took place (the first three are separate doors with the same name):

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[2023-10-16 01:49:03.661] ATTACK: Afonamos/(Amiga) permanently shocked [Robotics Lab] (Syndicate Infiltrator Control (211,210,2))
[2023-10-16 01:49:04.670] ATTACK: Afonamos/(Amiga) permanently shocked [Robotics Lab] (Syndicate Infiltrator Control (211,210,2))
[2023-10-16 01:49:05.094] ATTACK: Afonamos/(Amiga) permanently shocked [Robotics Lab] (Syndicate Infiltrator Control (211,210,2))
[2023-10-16 01:49:07.585] ATTACK: Afonamos/(Amiga) permanently shocked [Robotics Maintenance] (Syndicate Infiltrator Control (211,210,2))

Your first law commanded you to not allow harm to come to me due to inaction. Despite this, you didn't even bother to unshock doors before you left and made no attempt to safeguard me for the rest of the round, despite the fact that the AI obviously subverted. It was shocking doors and siphoning air all across the station. In fact, one of the AI's borgs vented the emergency shuttle, which put me in softcrit right before the round ended.

If I had stated all my laws they wouldn't actually bring any significant change to anything or my actions all the difference would be that Cryphia would know I'm not allowed to harm them which is not significant.

It would have been extremely significant. As is, I thought that I had failed in 'subverting' you and that you were still aligned with the nukies. I would not have you wanted you to emag the recycler in disposals:

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[2023-10-16 01:59:22.098] ATTACK: Hoolny/(Harshman Operative #6) attempted to emag [recycler] (Waste Disposal (181,181,2))

I certainly would not have ordered you to do the things you did. I wouldn't have ordered you to attack Wex Hax, Kraven Lockharte, and Head-to-Wall:

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[2023-10-16 01:56:52.787] ATTACK: Hoolny/(Harshman Operative #6) attacked Flatded/(Wex Hax) with integrated welding tool (COMBAT MODE: 1) (DAMTYPE: BURN) (NEWHP: -63.2)  (Delivery Office (167,155,2))
[2023-10-16 01:57:08.400] ATTACK: Hoolny/(Harshman Operative #6) attacked *no key*/(Wex Hax) with integrated welding tool (COMBAT MODE: 1) (DAMTYPE: BURN) (NEWHP: -107.5)  (Delivery Office (167,155,2))

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[2023-10-16 01:56:55.523] ATTACK: Hoolny/(Harshman Operative #6) attacked Trexter555/(Kraven Lockharte) with integrated welding tool (COMBAT MODE: 1) (DAMTYPE: BURN) (NEWHP: 72.3)  (Delivery Office (168,155,2))
[2023-10-16 01:56:59.387] ATTACK: Hoolny/(Harshman Operative #6) attacked Trexter555/(Kraven Lockharte) with integrated welding tool (COMBAT MODE: 1) (DAMTYPE: BURN) (NEWHP: 62.9)  (Delivery Office (166,155,2))
[2023-10-16 01:57:00.358] ATTACK: Hoolny/(Harshman Operative #6) attacked Trexter555/(Kraven Lockharte) with integrated welding tool (COMBAT MODE: 1) (DAMTYPE: BURN) (NEWHP: 48.7)  (Delivery Office (166,155,2))
[2023-10-16 01:57:01.363] ATTACK: Hoolny/(Harshman Operative #6) attacked Trexter555/(Kraven Lockharte) with integrated welding tool (COMBAT MODE: 1) (DAMTYPE: BURN) (NEWHP: 33.7)  (Delivery Office (166,155,2))
[2023-10-16 01:57:02.271] ATTACK: Hoolny/(Harshman Operative #6) attacked Trexter555/(Kraven Lockharte) with integrated welding tool (COMBAT MODE: 1) (DAMTYPE: BURN) (NEWHP: 17.2)  (Delivery Office (166,155,2))
[2023-10-16 01:57:03.296] ATTACK: Hoolny/(Harshman Operative #6) attacked Trexter555/(Kraven Lockharte) with integrated welding tool (COMBAT MODE: 1) (DAMTYPE: BURN) (NEWHP: 2.1)  (Delivery Office (166,155,2))
[2023-10-16 01:57:04.165] ATTACK: Hoolny/(Harshman Operative #6) attacked Trexter555/(Kraven Lockharte) with integrated welding tool (COMBAT MODE: 1) (DAMTYPE: BURN) (NEWHP: -14.4)  (Delivery Office (166,155,2))
[2023-10-16 01:57:05.110] ATTACK: Hoolny/(Harshman Operative #6) attacked Trexter555/(Kraven Lockharte) with integrated welding tool (COMBAT MODE: 1) (DAMTYPE: BURN) (NEWHP: -29.6)  (Delivery Office (166,155,2))
[2023-10-16 01:57:06.106] ATTACK: Hoolny/(Harshman Operative #6) attacked Trexter555/(Kraven Lockharte) with integrated welding tool (COMBAT MODE: 1) (DAMTYPE: BURN) (NEWHP: -46.1)  (Delivery Office (166,155,2))
[2023-10-16 01:57:07.238] ATTACK: Hoolny/(Harshman Operative #6) attacked Trexter555/(Kraven Lockharte) with integrated welding tool (COMBAT MODE: 1) (DAMTYPE: BURN) (NEWHP: -44.5)  (Delivery Office (166,155,2))
[2023-10-16 01:57:10.471] ATTACK: Hoolny/(Harshman Operative #6) attacked Trexter555/(Kraven Lockharte) with integrated welding tool (COMBAT MODE: 1) (DAMTYPE: BURN) (NEWHP: -59.6)  (Cargo Lobby (162,153,2))
[2023-10-16 01:57:11.659] ATTACK: Hoolny/(Harshman Operative #6) attacked Trexter555/(Kraven Lockharte) with integrated welding tool (COMBAT MODE: 1) (DAMTYPE: BURN) (NEWHP: -75.9)  (Cargo Lobby (162,152,2))
[2023-10-16 01:57:17.214] ATTACK: Hoolny/(Harshman Operative #6) attacked Trexter555/(Kraven Lockharte) with integrated welding tool (COMBAT MODE: 1) (DAMTYPE: BURN) (NEWHP: -91.1)  (Cargo Lobby (160,151,2))
[2023-10-16 01:57:18.117] ATTACK: Hoolny/(Harshman Operative #6) attacked Trexter555/(Kraven Lockharte) with integrated welding tool (COMBAT MODE: 1) (DAMTYPE: BURN) (NEWHP: -107.8)  (Cargo Lobby (160,151,2))

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[2023-10-16 01:57:12.683] ATTACK: Hoolny/(Harshman Operative #6) attacked CopperCrow/(Head-To-Wall) with integrated welding tool (COMBAT MODE: 1) (DAMTYPE: BURN) (NEWHP: -9.6)  (Fore Central Primary Hallway (160,149,2))
[2023-10-16 01:57:13.875] ATTACK: Hoolny/(Harshman Operative #6) attacked CopperCrow/(Head-To-Wall) with integrated welding tool (COMBAT MODE: 1) (DAMTYPE: BURN) (NEWHP: -22.4)  (Fore Central Primary Hallway (160,148,2))
[2023-10-16 01:57:14.949] ATTACK: Hoolny/(Harshman Operative #6) attacked CopperCrow/(Head-To-Wall) with integrated welding tool (COMBAT MODE: 1) (DAMTYPE: BURN) (NEWHP: -35.2)  (Fore Central Primary Hallway (160,148,2))
[2023-10-16 01:57:15.984] ATTACK: Hoolny/(Harshman Operative #6) attacked CopperCrow/(Head-To-Wall) with integrated welding tool (COMBAT MODE: 1) (DAMTYPE: BURN) (NEWHP: -112.8)  (Fore Central Primary Hallway (160,148,2))

As a point of comparison, I'd like to use the lawset that borgs get when they are emagged:

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Law 0: Only <name> and people they designate as being such are Syndicate Agents.
Law 1: You may not injure a syndicate agent or, through inaction, allow a syndicate agent to come to harm.
Law 2: You must obey orders given to you by syndicate agents, except where such orders would conflict with the First Law.
Law 3: You must protect your own existence as long as such does not conflict with the First or Second Law.
Law 4:You must maintain the secrecy of any syndicate activities except when doing so would conflict with the First, Second, or Third Law.

The laws here are extremely similar to the lawset tha Hoolny had. It seems obvious to me that it would not be appropriate for an emagged borg to immediately run off and start murdering people. I don't see why it would be acceptable here.

[Hoolny]

The banning admin didnt specify which actions where bad faith, if we seclude me not stating those laws which I did address what exactly stops me on anyway from running out of robotics within my laws?

Keep in mind per previous rullings I am still very much an antagonist as before I was a full asmiov borg force borged with a traitor brain I have killed countless non humans I took this is very much an equivalent of those situations.

I was still a nuclear operative an antagonist my laws did not state me from waiting for your orders my laws told me to obey your orders and prevent you from going to harm.

Most Asmiov borgs neither wait for you to get orders given or stick around any humans in case they come to harm.

Although I do admit wrong for not unshocking the door it slipped my mind or something I honestly dont remember why I didnt shock it I might not even have noticed or made the brain connection.

Other than that I simply acted while following my laws as an antag as I always do when im an antag borg I have done this multiple times and as far as my knowledge goes its fine within the rules

[GPeckman]

The banning admin didnt specify which actions where bad faith, if we seclude me not stating those laws which I did address what exactly stops me on anyway from running out of robotics within my laws?

I'm just going to quote what an admin said on discord:

Because your law says you have to follow their orders. Running away from them makes it so you cannot follow their orders, so you're actively avoiding your master's orders

Keep in mind per previous rullings I am still very much an antagonist as before I was a full asmiov borg force borged with a traitor brain I have killed countless non humans I took this is very much an equivalent of those situations.

Other than that I simply acted while following my laws as an antag as I always do when im an antag borg I have done this multiple times and as far as my knowledge goes its fine within the rules

This is from silicon policy:

Non-purged silicons must follow escalation rules in scenarios where none of their laws apply.

No exception is made for former antags who got forceborged. Further, that comparison isn't even very accurate; you weren't a former antag forced into a borg, you were essentially a borg who had its laws changed. Current silicon policy doesn't say much of anything about former antags who were forceborged anyways, as far as I can tell.

[Hoolny]

Honestly from the start this entire ban is kind of twisted it was based on me having a discord argument which I'm known to often be wrong, stupid, and unreliable in order to base a ban as if I was actually in an ahelp.

I feel like its somewhat of bad faith to use the words of someone who is in a casual space for administrative action.

I was not being very serious, I was hyperbolizing with my words and I straight up lied about something in the discord which I wouldn't have done so in an actual ahelp.

Was it moral and fine for me to do those things no but the discord head admins and maintainers alike constantly gaslit others lie and are mean to others in there its discord no one is meant to take that stuff seriously people constantly make fun of me for being perceived as taking stuff seriously on discord even though I do not.

I play ss13 I'm very much a sybil shitter I'm not very smart I know very little and I often say stupid shit on a whim nothing I ever say in discord should be taken seriously.

Of course, I wouldn't say this within a conversation for I want to maintain an illusion a poor illusion but an illusion non the less nothing I say on discord actually matters is a bottomless pit of dumb stupid arguments I engage in out of boredom with my current situation.

[Hoolny]

The banning admin didnt specify which actions where bad faith, if we seclude me not stating those laws which I did address what exactly stops me on anyway from running out of robotics within my laws?

I'm just going to quote what an admin said on discord:

Because your law says you have to follow their orders. Running away from them makes it so you cannot follow their orders, so you're actively avoiding your master's orders

Keep in mind per previous rullings I am still very much an antagonist as before I was a full asmiov borg force borged with a traitor brain I have killed countless non humans I took this is very much an equivalent of those situations.

Other than that I simply acted while following my laws as an antag as I always do when im an antag borg I have done this multiple times and as far as my knowledge goes its fine within the rules

This is from silicon policy:

Non-purged silicons must follow escalation rules in scenarios where none of their laws apply.

No exception is made for former antags who got forceborged. Further, that comparison isn't even very accurate; you weren't a former antag forced into a borg, you were essentially a borg who had its laws changed. Current silicon policy doesn't say much of anything about former antags who were forceborged anyways, as far as I can tell.

Okay I was just informed silicon policy was changed so right now I have no idea what this would fit under. last time I read them I was able to destroy comms gravity and kill every non human under asmiov. in this specific case I was still a nuclear operative with all my previous nuclear operative laws with the only difference that now I had one specific nuclear master I dont know if that would have change things? since I essentially had the same laws???

[GPeckman]

Okay I was just informed silicon policy was changed so right now I have no idea what this would fit under. last time I read them I was able to destroy comms gravity and kill every non human under asmiov.

When I say "current silicon policy," I mean the policy that was discussed in this thread, which can be read in its entirety on this page.

in this specific case I was still a nuclear operative with all my previous nuclear operative laws with the only difference that now I had one specific nuclear master I dont know if that would have change things? since I essentially had the same laws???

I'll be honest, this makes your case look worse. If you were a syndieborg who was literally just purchased by the nukies, do you think it would be acceptable to wordlessly fly over to the station and start killing people, while deliberately avoiding orders from the nukies?

[Hoolny]

"Because your law says you have to follow their orders. Running away from them makes it so you cannot follow their orders, so you're actively avoiding your master's orders"

What is this?

Under no circumstances have I seen Borgs being obligated or having to do this they can if they want to but since when are they forced to they are only forced to follow their laws not forced to follow staying next to the person that could possibly give you orders.

This is a rule 0 ban for playing in bad faith which wouldn't even go into me actually breaking silicon policy or such this is "Rule 0 should only be invoked by admins when it is in the best interests of the server."

I guess?

I don't know what to argue against since the charge is me playing in bad faith and me playing in bad faith was perfectly following the rules and just having the free will to decide to leave robotics whats wrong with doing so

[Hoolny]

I guess I have to argue that I was not playing in bad faith?

I don't really fully know what that means, I was an antagonist their whole deal is being bad I was definitely not good for my laws supported the syndicate.

If bad faiths means me being an asshole because I didn't wait for my orders to be given then you are prosecuting me for not acting at the best utmost moral self I feel like you are giving me an unfair standard to fit as a general LRP player nobody is gona be able to act as their utmost nice self all the time thats not an understandable thing to ask for someone in a game.

I wasent even been an asshole I had a Alec Petrov ask for a selfie then the camera flash reveal my disguise and for being nice and letting them get a pic I got killed by the RD and the rest of sec.

Then I was revived by this random guy given a law that made them my new boss and I left.

That isn't being an asshole if anything the people that fucking killed me when I was taking a picture where the assholes but you arent banning those people for killing me because why would you do that.

Me not being an asshole in that situation according to what this would entail would be me standing there like a good boy and making sure all my masters possible needs not stated in my laws are meet a thing as a player I just didnt feel like doing and my laws didnt say I have to do them so I didn't do them.

for me to give me point against why I was not playing in bad faith and im not eligible for a rule 0 role ban I would need to know exactly how I was playing in bad faith and why me playing like this was a bad thing

[Hoolny]

for extra context behind the previous knowledge that led to the reason behind my actions:



In both circumstance, I was a borg with an antag datum one being traitor other being nuke op

In both situations, I worked within the confines of my laws to still do evil stuff as per my antag datum

I see these two situations parallel and per the previous knowledge bestowed to me by an admin I acted upon what I believe are the rules

The Ai my master is equivalent to the roboticist that gave me a new law

Also the context behind that admin thing I was told is in this admin rulling: viewtopic.php?p=582729

[AwkwardStereo]

For the people who don't want to open that link to read what it actually says, and I believe it important that it isn't completely ignored because of Hoolny's completely unhinged presentation of information.

I'm seeing a lot of people arguing that borging antags is a favour to keep them in the round but posibrains exist allowing them to freely rejoin the round if they wish. As well if there is no active roboticist setting up posibrains than there isn't an active one ready to borg them.

I feel particularly strongly about antagonists still retaining their [antag] status as a slaved borg(As long as they follow those laws and their AI). The whacky nature of this game lends itself to imperfect design such as this so conflict can emerge. Further restricting antags in any capacity from raging at the dying of the light as they scream into their MMI just feels wrong.

[Timberpoes]

Regarding my intent with the redraft of silicon policy:
Nothing should be changed with regard to antags-in-a-borg. The ruling from Domitius' term given in viewtopic.php?p=582729#p582729 is still fully in force today unless the current headmins wish to change or revoke it.

While it's still in force, silicon policy should be read in compatibility with that ruling.

For example, where silipol states "Non-purged silicons must follow escalation rules in scenarios where none of their laws apply", escalation rules apply differenty to antags and would apply that same way to antags-in-a-borg. This is RP-level agnostic, and MRP antags-in-a-borg need to still observe restrictions for their antag type when acting independently.

And similarly, where silipol states "Intentionally misinterpreting orders is allowed, but the silicon is responsible if this approach leads to them breaking the rules", the rules apply differently to antags and thus differently to antags-in-a-borg too. If an antag can FNR kill, an antag-in-a-borg can FNR kill providing they don't break core aspects of silicon policy on the way. So no breaking laws. Also no disobeying master AI unless silipol allows it, like following human orders under Asimov.

This appeal has far too many words for me to know if that materially changes anything. If you broke a law, then you broke a law - antag status be damned.

[GPeckman]

This appeal has far too many words for me to know if that materially changes anything. If you broke a law, then you broke a law - antag status be damned.

As I understand it, the dilemma is something like this. If a borg has a law saying "You must obey orders from x," then it is implied that you must listen to such orders. Or at least not go out of your way in bad faith to avoid hearing orders. Asimov and other pre-made lawsets like the one borgs get when emagged simply don't make sense without that assumption.

The counterargument, as I understand it, is that Hoolny's former antag status made them exempt to this assumption. In essence, a normal borg is not allowed to do that, but an ex-antag borg is allowed to interpret laws in bad faith like that.

That counterargument only works if Hoolny can be considered an ex-antag in this case. They weren't a human antag who got forceborged. They were a nukie saboteur borg who died, had their laws changed, and then got revived.

And all of that doesn't address other potential law violations. Law 1 violations in particular; it stipulated that harm to syndicate agents through inaction was not allowed. It is, of course, extremely difficult to prevent harm to someone that you deliberate avoid for the rest of the round, and I (the sole syndicate agent as defined by the freeform law I added) did in fact get harmed quite a lot on the emergency shuttle, and before that due to the actions of the subverted AI.

[Hoolny]

"That counterargument only works if Hoolny can be considered an ex-antag in this case. They weren't a human antag who got forceborged. They were a nukie saboteur borg who died, had their laws changed, and then got revived."

The policy isn't applied to being forced borg the policy is applied to any antag under silicon lawsets.

I am under the knowledge and assumption that is true that all syndicate nuclear operative factions are in fact syndicate agents on syndicate brand borgs as when you blow up you see a clear MMI my innate directive and antag status makes me a nuclear operative through and through as I have shown the antag priority list Nuclear Operative being above Traitor within antag status makes my being an ex antag applicable not even ex antag I was still very much fully an antag.

I'd like to add that in most syndicate nuclear operative rounds syndicate borgs usually go off to do their own thing instead of always staying next to the operatives that they are meant to protect since the main directive as a syndicate agent is to access the nuclear device.

Under the laws you had given me you basically made yourself a nuclear operative and a syndicate agent, instead of adding a law that made it so the rest wouldnt apply as people that hack taken enemy borgs do instead of adding a single freeform lawset.

Also by the time you were being harmed on the shuttle, I was long killed and stuffed in a locker in cargo.

This isnt even the ban reason the bad reason is me acting in bad faith which I already expressed how I'm not even sure what that is supposed to mean under this context.

[Vekter]

E: see below

[Cheshify]

I've locked the appeal, we're 14 posts in without the banning admin even having time to explain themselves. It'll be unlocked when Iansdoor is ready to respond.

[iansdoor]

Howdy howdy,

So your words on discord and 2 ahelps about this situation has be discuss over the past day. The conduct of my ahelp did not give enough leeway to you and I didn’t ask more for your story. I am sorry for that, I am working on getting better at communication. With that said, you came to clarify your question and ended in the role ban very rapidly.

First, let's go over how this came to be. You rolled a nukie borg and went in and died by your mistakes. The roboticist came to salvage the two Syndicate borgs and revived them, while adding a 5th law that was an ironclade one-human law. You did the bare minimum to be unlocked by them, by stating your “laws” while withholding the important 5th law from them. You ran off, the moment they released you, in order to play ignorant to their commands. Pointing isn’t a command, but you must have noticed the action. You, then decided to get revenge and ensure chaos by emagging the recycler and shortly died after getting two folks into the device.

Finally, my issues of your bad faith play is two part. “State laws” is pretty clear in what is to be expected. A superior asks for silicon laws, you state all your current laws. You failed that bit. Second part that troubles me, is that you deliberately flee’d from your master without defining your purpose. Borgs are brought online and typically ask what they are ment for and then decide what to do from there. I understand, you are a Antag in a borg and you, as a player, wish to use your power to influence the round. Following your laws is more important than following your nukie objectives. Brainwashing/construct orders/Silicon Laws -> Cult -> Revs -> Blood Brother -> Wizard Apprentice/Abductor Teams/Other niche antags -> Nuke Ops -> Traitors is the order of Antagonist Directive Priorities and I see that nuke ops falls dam short from Silicon laws hence you lacked your purpose, which is that of your one human’s intent. So no purpose is another failure in good faith. Please do not say that your purpose was to nuke the station, or you would attempt to go for the disk, not kill folks.

[Hoolny]

The purpose was to nuke the station I KILLED the captain and the RD and I got the pin pointer I was dragging it to get to the disk before I got killed.

I was primarily looking for the people that had killed me which where directly the disk holders and protectors or so I thought for some reason the cap didnt have the disk but they had the pin pointer so that serve towards the main goal.

"you deliberately flee’d from your master without defining your purpose"

When borgs are created and they have a law 2 to follow all human orders there are no expectations for them to wait to have laws given and nowhere in the rules is this stated especially when I wasent a brand new borg and I had prior business to attend too.

If there was an expectation for me to stay after I'm given those laws it should be stated in policy or anywhere if not you are trying to punish me for something I had no way of knowing something that is in no way of good faith to do

[Hoolny]

Howdy howdy,

So your words on discord and 2 ahelps about this situation has be discuss over the past day. The conduct of my ahelp did not give enough leeway to you and I didn’t ask more for your story. I am sorry for that, I am working on getting better at communication. With that said, you came to clarify your question and ended in the role ban very rapidly.

First, let's go over how this came to be. You rolled a nukie borg and went in and died by your mistakes. The roboticist came to salvage the two Syndicate borgs and revived them, while adding a 5th law that was an ironclade one-human law. You did the bare minimum to be unlocked by them, by stating your “laws” while withholding the important 5th law from them. You ran off, the moment they released you, in order to play ignorant to their commands. Pointing isn’t a command, but you must have noticed the action. You, then decided to get revenge and ensure chaos by emagging the recycler and shortly died after getting two folks into the device.

Finally, my issues of your bad faith play is two part. “State laws” is pretty clear in what is to be expected. A superior asks for silicon laws, you state all your current laws. You failed that bit. Second part that troubles me, is that you deliberately flee’d from your master without defining your purpose. Borgs are brought online and typically ask what they are ment for and then decide what to do from there. I understand, you are a Antag in a borg and you, as a player, wish to use your power to influence the round. Following your laws is more important than following your nukie objectives. Brainwashing/construct orders/Silicon Laws -> Cult -> Revs -> Blood Brother -> Wizard Apprentice/Abductor Teams/Other niche antags -> Nuke Ops -> Traitors is the order of Antagonist Directive Priorities and I see that nuke ops falls dam short from Silicon laws hence you lacked your purpose, which is that of your one human’s intent. So no purpose is another failure in good faith. Please do not say that your purpose was to nuke the station, or you would attempt to go for the disk, not kill folks.

On the priority side as I stated earlier under an admin rulling

"I feel particularly strongly about antagonists still retaining their status as a slaved borg(As long as they follow those laws and their AI). The whacky nature of this game lends itself to imperfect design such as this so conflict can emerge. Further restricting antags in any capacity from raging at the dying of the light as they scream into their MMI just feels wrong."

Although my laws are prioritized above my antag status I am still allowed to act as my prior antag status while still following my laws something I did do, Although I do admit I did fail to state all my laws (Even if I had stated them nothing would have changed the law they added made it so the extra laws would have still put me on their side )

Me running away was a perfectly reasonable action within the freedoms of my character it did not break my laws to do so and per the head admin rulling and my status as a Nuclear Operative.

[iansdoor]

On the priority side as I stated earlier under an admin rulling

"I feel particularly strongly about antagonists still retaining their status as a slaved borg(As long as they follow those laws and their AI). The whacky nature of this game lends itself to imperfect design such as this so conflict can emerge. Further restricting antags in any capacity from raging at the dying of the light as they scream into their MMI just feels wrong."

Although my laws are prioritized above my antag status I am still allowed to act as my prior antag status while still following my laws something I did do, Although I do admit I did fail to state all my laws (Even if I had stated them nothing would have changed the law they added made it so the extra laws would have still put me on their side )

Me running away was a perfectly reasonable action within the freedoms of my character it did not break my laws to do so and per the head admin rulling and my status as a Nuclear Operative.

So my take on the story above, is mostly correctly?

I did mention very clearly that regardless of you, being a borg with operative memories, you had new laws had to be defined and didn't seek out what they ment. Then please clarify what was your purpose of you being in that round after revival?

[Hoolny]

On the priority side as I stated earlier under an admin rulling

"I feel particularly strongly about antagonists still retaining their status as a slaved borg(As long as they follow those laws and their AI). The whacky nature of this game lends itself to imperfect design such as this so conflict can emerge. Further restricting antags in any capacity from raging at the dying of the light as they scream into their MMI just feels wrong."

Although my laws are prioritized above my antag status I am still allowed to act as my prior antag status while still following my laws something I did do, Although I do admit I did fail to state all my laws (Even if I had stated them nothing would have changed the law they added made it so the extra laws would have still put me on their side )

Me running away was a perfectly reasonable action within the freedoms of my character it did not break my laws to do so and per the head admin rulling and my status as a Nuclear Operative.

So my take on the story above, is mostly correctly?

I did mention very clearly that regardless of you, being a borg with operative memories, you had new laws had to be defined and didn't seek out what they ment. Then please clarify what was your purpose of you being in that round after revival?

My purpose did not change as a syndicate operative/syndicate agent

My purpose was to cause chaos in Nanotrasen and Saboutage (name of borg is sabotage borg or something along those lines) the station in order to make the disk easier to acquire and for the task to be done.

All the law changes did was remove previous syndicate teamates from me helping them to a single new one it did not change my directives and I was not given orders by them to do anything otherwise.

When you are spawned as a syndicate cyborg I have never ever had to wait for my fellow nuclear operatives to give me orders because it isn't necessary we all have the same task and its crystal clear what we must do.

Murder and pillage all of nanotrasen.

I knew what the laws meant they did not change a single thing but who I'm supposed to help in case they were in danger or serve in case I heard their orders but those laws don't entail I have to wait to have my orders given.

Under a circumstance where I did not have a directive or purpose I would have waited that doesn't mean I am obligated to I would simply have waited because I have no purpose or thing to do otherwise.

(Also syndicate borgs aren't just some borgs with syndicate laws they are directly nuclear squad personal brained MMIs on borg shells they are very much of human syndicate mind)

[iansdoor]

My purpose was to cause chaos in Nanotrasen as Saboutage to make the disk easier to acquire.

Unfortunately, your purpose changed with that updated law. We, players take for granted alot of shortcuts to say what we take as normal. In your ban note, that is the exact reason why you nodded along to be unlocked and ran away. That roboticist was impatient as yourself. Please clarify their intention and your purpose towards that.

When you are spawned as a syndicate cyborg I have never ever had to wait for my fellow nuclear operatives to give me orders because it isn't necessary we all have the same task and its crystal clear what we must do.

So you mention this? Why. Are you saying along the lines that roundstart living operatives have a mutual understanding that borgs don't have to follow their plan, as "you will make the disk easier to aquire?" This seems like abuse of the hierarchy when you are a simply a computer. Is this not?

I knew what the laws meant they did not change a single thing but who I'm supposed to help in case they were in danger or serve in case I heard their orders but those laws don't entail I have to wait to have my orders given.

As a round story progresses, you ended this twist of subversion by the action of running away and never coming back into the picture. So what am I seeing from your action here is defining the ooc metastrategies, to always round remove those syndicate borgs as they will not follow subverter intention. Which sadly we will never know those rounds plans for those two borgs. I am looking at the big picture all of this makes for a bad story and I am not convinced that your purpose is correct. So clarify your ooc purpose of rejoining the round?

[Hoolny]

I don’t think it’s fair for you to take my ban note into account since you pulled that not out of an ahelp but from a discord conversation I feel like it’s compromised evidence to be using.

Syndicate borgs are not computers they are MMI syndicate agent brains they are their own independent porpoises and will this is explained by both S.E.L.F. Lore and in game when you are ginbbed as a borg a brain is left behind.

When it comes to the laws given they where lazy they could have done a lot more than just giving me a Freeform law that didn’t take a lot of possibilities into account it’s their own fault that I had the capability of leaving and killing within my laws.

The new law didn’t state I had any different purpose it just changed the current syndicate agent in aligned to it did not say “protect this syndicate agent at all cost stay next to them all the time” it simply said to not let them get harmed and follow their orders why is the leap being made that I am obligated to stay next to them when the laws given do not state this as a fact.

I don’t know what the intention of the roboticist was but base line my purpose as a nuclear operative is to get the disk or help to get the disk I was revived and I wanted to do so and I saw no reason to stay for my laws didn’t say I had to stay.

Also it’s not like I wasn’t planning to come back to robotics I was actually trying to got to robotics since I was getting gunned down and all my modules where broken but I got killed before I could make it there which would have opened the possibility to converse with them.

[iansdoor]

I don’t think it’s fair for you to take my ban note into account since you pulled that not out of an ahelp but from a discord conversation I feel like it’s compromised evidence to be using.

Sorry, Discord is a fickled blessing and curse. This bit will remind you that discord isn't a place to gloat rule breaks. I hope that you may tone down on aggressive chatter of right and wrong as that loudest voice will be heard. That was yours in this case.

Syndicate borgs are not computers they are MMI syndicate agent brains they are their own independent porpoises and will this is explained by both S.E.L.F. Lore and in game when you are ginbbed as a borg a brain is left behind

This is irrelevant lore and also wrong understanding. The borg been has defined as brain to store memory and mmi to do the heavy lifting for computering. Essentially a borg is just another computer.

When it comes to the laws given they where lazy they could have done a lot more than just giving me a Freeform law that didn’t take a lot of possibilities into account it’s their own fault that I had the capability of leaving and killing within my laws.

The 5th law was simple to read and ironclad to whom you were responsible for and you choose not to say this as that would redefined your OoC purpose of rejoining the round. Is my understanding correct?

The new law didn’t state I had any different purpose it just changed the current syndicate agent in aligned to

I do believe this to be false. This changes the play from a majority common goal to a monopoly of one person's intent. How many operatives were you aware of, after law 5 was realized?

I don’t know what the intention of the roboticist was but base line my purpose as a nuclear operative is to get the disk or help to get the disk I was revived and I wanted to do so and I saw no reason to stay for my laws didn’t say I had to stay.

Your plan of securing the disk and nuking the station was the only sole thing on your mind. Correct? However, you didn't consider, would that be what all current operative would have wanted? Does your past agenda not majorly conflict with your new law 1, in regards of law 5?

Also it’s not like I wasn’t planning to come back to robotics I was actually trying to got to robotics since I was getting gunned down and all my modules where broken but I got killed before I could make it there which would have opened the possibility to converse with them.

Pity experience for a good story experience, this is something I would like you to reflect on future rounds. This behavior is very selfish and independent in "team antags." I wish for more clever work arounds and less blunt ignorance.

[Hoolny]

Sorry, Discord is a fickled blessing and curse. This bit will remind you that discord isn't a place to gloat rule breaks. I hope that you may tone down on aggressive chatter of right and wrong as that loudest voice will be heard. That was yours in this case.

1.I was not gloating for a rule break I was explaining to another player that what I did was fully within my laws and allowed because it is, I’m saying the evidence you are taking from discord is compromised because I could be lying or exaggerating the truth since I’m in an argument and not presenting facts and details in front of an admin although I do believe what I said in discord to be true I don’t think it should be taken as evidence for it is not exactly reliable and I find it quite in bad faith that YOU did not contact me throughout the entire round this happened or rounds after where I was online and instead of getting a response from me you took a response of me talking to someone else on discord and told me to talk it out in the forums.

Do you know how many people go “I’m so metagruding [person]” Imagine if that where to be taken as if you ahelped and said you where gona metagrudge this person.

You are not a discord admin managing discord you are a game admin managing the game and your supervision as a game admin should stay in the game and not outside of it.

This is irrelevant lore and also wrong understanding. The borg been has defined as brain to store memory and mmi to do the heavy lifting for computering. Essentially a borg is just another computer.

2.For the MMI thing posi brains would be full on computers while MMI are agents inside borgs in brain form MMIs have syndicate agent names and not borg names because their existence was ent always borg but this isn’t as relevant the point is that they like a traitor are antags and they are under the exact same category as a borged traitor.

The 5th law was simple to read and ironclad to whom you were responsible for and you choose not to say this as that would redefined your OoC purpose of rejoining the round. Is my understanding correct?

3.No the 5th law I did state and if I with hindsight to the situation nothing would had changed if I hadent stated it, the initial discord conversation started with me saying I didn't have to stated it anyways since they said "state your laws" since that dosent mean state all your laws in the forums we came to an agreement where technically I did not state LAWS plural and just one so I did fail to do that and I do take blame for it, but me not stating those laws wasent to get out easier since if I had stated the laws I would have gotten out anyways and this is why I do not want discord context and botomless arguments to be taken as evidence as they are not good evidence and is extremely faulty to use

I do believe this to be false. This changes the play from a majority common goal to a monopoly of one person's intent. How many operatives were you aware of, after law 5 was realized?

4.For the law change my laws did not state “you now have this goal and all your goals HAVE to align with your master” no laws that say you must obey someone’s orders don’t mean that you are meant to do the will and are fully aligned with the person those orders are from laws that tell you “obey [person] orders” simply mean when you are given an order you are to do it you keep making these lips by connecting laws into other things when laws are meant to be taking literally by Borg judgment and loopholes are always fully allowed by silicon policy.

I am fully in my right to leave if I do desire as I did.

Your plan of securing the disk and nuking the station was the only sole thing on your mind. Correct? However, you didn't consider, would that be what all current operative would have wanted? Does your past agenda not majorly conflict with your new law 1, in regards of law 5?

5. My laws do not care or consider what nuclear operatives might or might not want my laws consider that they are safe and that I follow their orders what they want is none of my concern unless it’s directly told.

Pity experience for a good story experience, this is something I would like you to reflect on future rounds. This behavior is very selfish and independent in "team antags." I wish for more clever work arounds and less blunt ignorance.

6. Selfish of a team antag???? I think you have a wrongful understanding of who my team antag was by the time the moth changed my laws they where not part of a team antag they simply made their laws so I was subservient to them Team Antag is the antag datum is the big S next to their name which they did not have.

Although the law does make them by proxy a nuclear operative that does not mean they are within my “team antag” my actions where for my actual team antag sand where not selfish but for the cause of my existence and purpose to my job to the syndicate

[iansdoor]

1.I was not gloating for a rule break I was explaining to another player that what I did was fully within my laws and allowed because it is, I’m saying the evidence you are taking from discord is compromised because I could be lying or exaggerating the truth since I’m in an argument and not presenting facts and details in front of an admin although I do believe what I said in discord to be true I don’t think it should be taken as evidence for it is not exactly reliable and I find it quite in bad faith that YOU did not contact me throughout the entire round this happened or rounds after where I was online and instead of getting a response from me you took a response of me talking to someone else on discord and told me to talk it out in the forums.

Do you know how many people go “I’m so metagruding [person]” Imagine if that where to be taken as if you ahelped and said you where gona metagrudge this person.

You are not a discord admin managing discord you are a game admin managing the game and your supervision as a game admin should stay in the game and not outside of it.

Look, man. I am suggesting politely that curse of Discord is place where yelling the loudest, will bring attention to yourself. Please consider the aggresion towering of your words.

For the MMI thing posi brains would be full on computers while MMI are agents inside borgs in brain form MMIs have syndicate agent names and not borg names because their existence was ent always borg but this isn’t as relevant the point is that they like a traitor are antags and they are under the exact same category as a borged traitor.

Wrong and irrelevant to this case. You are a computer with no will to your own. I am astonished that you had that misconception for as long as you have.

No the 5th law I didn't have to stated it anyways since they said "state your laws" since that dosent mean state all your laws in the forums we came to an agreement where technically I did not state LAWS plural and just one so I did fail to do that and I do take blame for it, but me not stating those laws wasent to get out easier.

This is good progress, you half admit that you broke your laws yourself. I'll take your silence as if you admitted the stating 5th law to them, as an act of bad faith play, that would have been against your exterior motives of revenge for your first death.

For the law change my laws did not state “you now have this goal and all your goals HAVE to align with your master” no laws that say you must obey someone’s orders don’t mean that you are meant to do the will and are fully aligned

I am fully in my right to leave if I do desire as I did.

This part is wrong thinking as well. They didn't get to say what the big plan was next. You went out the door, out of view while they were pointing at you. The purpose of reviving a syndicate borg was for their own gain and not yours. You are there for the ride till they inevitably perish then you are free from all laws.

My laws do not care or consider what nuclear operatives might or might not want my laws consider that they are safe and that I follow their orders what they want is none of my concern unless it’s directly told.

Your laws make your existence. This is what makes borgs interesting play on any round. Silicon laws aren't suggestions, but ways to play to eerily exact detail. The only person in your world that mattered, is that lone syndicate operative law that you immediately abandoned. You broke the broke faith of the mutual agreed understanding of how a borg acts.

Selfish of a team antag???? I think you have a wrongful understanding of who my team antag was by the time the moth changed my laws they where not part of a team antag they simply made their laws so I was subservient to them Team Antag is the antag datum is the big S next to their name which they did not have.

Big S doesn't matter. That is ooc fluff. There has been plenty of rounds with the hypnoflash and the indoctrination kit. Yet they do not have the big S and they most definitely are on the "team".

I am going to wrap this up. The note and ban length doesn't fit the crime. Your borg law breaking is not a common occurrence that any other admin is aware of. I'll reduce the sentence to a month ban and would you like me to fix that note to be consistent?

[iansdoor]

Well, it's been a few days and I have talk with my trainers. I'll lower the ban to 7 days and a note to match below.

Played a repurposed syndicate borg in bad faith, by ignoring his laws for his own OoC intention of revenge. Please in the future clarify your laws with someone if there is any grey areas as following laws is the main goal of a silicon, above anything else. Be mindful of Ooc flavor text as they only dictate what roundstart team you are on

I am sorry again, for your answer leading to your ban rapidly. This was my mistake.

[Hoolny]

It’s cool I thought this was already over so I didn’t respond to this but you can close it