[Archie700] Qunk - baffling ban

[Qunk]

Ban Details
BYOND account: qunk
Character name: Vlad Dracula
Ban type: Server
Ban length: Permanent
Ban reason: In R218008, in response to their boss hacking doors in security, proceeded to break into armoury and loot it, then fired lethals at the captain when he tried to arrest CE for it, snowballing into a Engineering war with the Captain that cumulated in Qunk trying to kamikaze the Captain in the shuttle. You have had multiple chances and even got unbanned from perma twice. There will not be a third time unless you apply with a vouch after a year.
Time ban was placed: 2023-11-04 02:35:37
Server you were playing on when banned: Sybil
Round ID in which ban was placed: R218008

Reasons for Appealing - Delete irrelevant sections
Are you appealing a validly placed permaban and would like another chance to be unbanned?: No? assuming this is asking if I think the ban was valid

Is the reason/note factually accurate and fair?: No
If no, please provide more details: The reason is technically accurate, but the information it presents is pretty one-sided and the ban itself isn't deserved. I did use lethals on the captain after he tried to arrest us, but we spared him in the end, not even cuffing him if I remember correctly. I also did try to kamikaze him at the end, but that was only after him and the AI (permanently) killed the CE, 2-3 other engineers, and a cargonian who had joined us. Painting this as the evil engineers abusing the poor captain is just silly, and banning me specifically out of everyone is even more so. This was pretty obviously a fun IC feud that got handled IC, and even if the captain complained about it (which I seriously doubt as he forgave me and tried to make peace at the end) we would *still* be on the right just in terms of body count and damage done to the other side
Supporting logs: The only logs I could find just had the round stuff, nothing specific like chat messages or player actions

Do you disagree with the admin's interpretation of rules or policy?: Yes
If no, please provide more details: The only thing I can think of this breaking is rule 1, but even then: there was plenty of IC justification/escalation, our side was mostly defensive after the initial heist, and the captain and AI were both pretty chill about it once it was all over

Do you feel the ban length or decision to note was unjustifiably harsh?: Yes
If no, please provide more details: With my previous bans there was at least something I did wrong (either intentionally or accidentally) and could learn from, while here its just taking an IC issue and turning it into a ban seemingly out of spite

[Archie700]

I was made aware of this incident because someone was complaining about the behavior of the CE in the round in tickets and that they raided the armory, when I went and dived in, I found out that the person who actually did it was you.

Roundstart, you and the CE were discussing hacking into security. The CE only got as far as opening some doors but you proceeded to loot the armory.

Code: Select all

[2023-11-02 17:55:07.910] ATTACK: Qunk/(Vlad Dracula) splashed [reinforced wall] with Thermite (90.0014), (Brig (102,176,3))
[2023-11-02 17:56:04.651] ATTACK: Qunk/(Vlad Dracula) fired at *no key*/(Sergeant-At-Armsky) with the laser from Armory (NEWHP: 45)  (Armory (104,179,3))
[2023-11-02 17:56:04.762] ATTACK: Qunk/(Vlad Dracula) shot *no key*/(Sergeant-At-Armsky) with the laser (NEWHP: 45)  (Armory (104,179,3))
[2023-11-02 17:56:05.231] ATTACK: Qunk/(Vlad Dracula) fired at *no key*/(Sergeant-At-Armsky) with the laser from Armory (NEWHP: 7.5)  (Armory (104,179,3))
[2023-11-02 17:56:05.364] ATTACK: Qunk/(Vlad Dracula) shot *no key*/(Sergeant-At-Armsky) with the laser (NEWHP: 7.5)  (Armory (104,179,3))
[2023-11-02 17:56:05.743] ATTACK: Qunk/(Vlad Dracula) fired at [potato battery] with the laser from Armory (Armory (104,179,3))
[2023-11-02 17:56:06.187] ATTACK: Qunk/(Vlad Dracula) fired at [potato battery] with the laser from Armory (Armory (104,179,3))
[2023-11-02 17:56:17.740] ATTACK: Qunk/(Vlad Dracula) has thrown the rack parts  (Armory (104,178,3))
[2023-11-02 17:56:19.704] ATTACK: Qunk/(Vlad Dracula) has thrown the rack parts  (Armory (104,178,3))

When the captain came to Engineering to arrest the CE for it (mistaken identity but he had evidence from prints and the AI), you proceeded to fire at him with lasers you stole from Armory, with some lethals.

Code: Select all

[2023-11-02 18:06:09.919] ATTACK: Qunk/(Vlad Dracula) fired at [full tile reinforced window] with the laser from Engineering Lobby (Engineering Lobby (121,90,4))
[2023-11-02 18:06:10.624] ATTACK: Qunk/(Vlad Dracula) fired at [floor] with the laser from Engineering Lobby (Engineering Lobby (117,90,4))
[2023-11-02 18:06:28.364] ATTACK: Qunk/(Vlad Dracula) fired at [floor] with the disabler beam from Engineering Lobby (Engineering Lobby (117,87,4))
[2023-11-02 18:06:28.870] ATTACK: Qunk/(Vlad Dracula) fired at [floor] with the disabler beam from Engineering Lobby (Engineering Lobby (119,87,4))
[2023-11-02 18:06:30.644] ATTACK: Qunk/(Vlad Dracula) fired at [floor] with the disabler beam from Aft Primary Hallway (Aft Primary Hallway (112,87,4))
[2023-11-02 18:06:31.294] ATTACK: Qunk/(Vlad Dracula) fired at [floor] with the disabler beam from Aft Primary Hallway (Aft Primary Hallway (112,90,4))
[2023-11-02 18:06:32.665] ATTACK: Qunk/(Vlad Dracula) fired at [plating] with the disabler beam from Aft Primary Hallway (Aft Primary Hallway (111,93,4))
[2023-11-02 18:06:50.282] ATTACK: Qunk/(Vlad Dracula) fired at [floor] with the laser from Central Primary Hallway (Central Primary Hallway (128,129,4))
[2023-11-02 18:06:50.493] ATTACK: Qunk/(Vlad Dracula) shot 8botticus/(Freddy Rathalos) with the laser (NEWHP: 98.6)  (Central Primary Hallway (128,129,4))
[2023-11-02 18:06:51.137] ATTACK: Qunk/(Vlad Dracula) fired at [floor] with the laser from Central Primary Hallway (Central Primary Hallway (128,129,4))
[2023-11-02 18:06:51.339] ATTACK: Satan On Wheels/(Barthalamue Ortinboch) shot Qunk/(Vlad Dracula) with the freeze beam (NEWHP: 100)  (Central Primary Hallway (130,119,4))
[2023-11-02 18:06:51.693] ATTACK: Qunk/(Vlad Dracula) fired at [floor] with the laser from Central Primary Hallway (Central Primary Hallway (128,128,4))
[2023-11-02 18:06:52.094] ATTACK: Qunk/(Vlad Dracula) fired at [floor] with the laser from Central Primary Hallway (Central Primary Hallway (128,128,4))
[2023-11-02 18:06:52.547] ATTACK: Qunk/(Vlad Dracula) fired at 8botticus/(Freddy Rathalos) with the laser from Central Primary Hallway (NEWHP: 79.4)  (Central Primary Hallway (128,128,4))
[2023-11-02 18:06:52.556] ATTACK: 8botticus/(Freddy Rathalos) shot Qunk/(Vlad Dracula) with the disabler beam (NEWHP: 100)  (Central Primary Hallway (130,128,4))
[2023-11-02 18:06:52.657] ATTACK: Qunk/(Vlad Dracula) shot 8botticus/(Freddy Rathalos) with the laser (NEWHP: 79.4)  (Central Primary Hallway (128,129,4))
[2023-11-02 18:06:53.101] ATTACK: Qunk/(Vlad Dracula) fired at [floor] with the laser from Central Primary Hallway (Central Primary Hallway (128,129,4))
[2023-11-02 18:06:53.204] ATTACK: Qunk/(Vlad Dracula) shot 8botticus/(Freddy Rathalos) with the laser (NEWHP: 60.6)  (Central Primary Hallway (128,130,4))
[2023-11-02 18:06:53.704] ATTACK: Qunk/(Vlad Dracula) fired at 8botticus/(Freddy Rathalos) with the laser from Central Primary Hallway (NEWHP: 41.8)  (Central Primary Hallway (128,130,4))
[2023-11-02 18:06:53.809] ATTACK: Qunk/(Vlad Dracula) shot 8botticus/(Freddy Rathalos) with the laser (NEWHP: 41.8)  (Central Primary Hallway (128,131,4))
[2023-11-02 18:06:54.265] ATTACK: Qunk/(Vlad Dracula) fired at [floor] with the laser from Central Primary Hallway (Central Primary Hallway (128,131,4))
[2023-11-02 18:06:54.776] ATTACK: Qunk/(Vlad Dracula) fired at [floor] with the laser from Central Primary Hallway (Central Primary Hallway (128,132,4))
[2023-11-02 18:06:55.336] ATTACK: Qunk/(Vlad Dracula) fired at [floor] with the laser from Central Primary Hallway (Central Primary Hallway (128,134,4))
[2023-11-02 18:06:55.694] ATTACK: 8botticus/(Freddy Rathalos) shot Qunk/(Vlad Dracula) with the disabler beam (NEWHP: 100)  (Central Primary Hallway (130,129,4))
[2023-11-02 18:06:56.692] ATTACK: Qunk/(Vlad Dracula) fired at [floor] with the disabler beam from Central Primary Hallway (Central Primary Hallway (128,137,4))
[2023-11-02 18:06:57.156] ATTACK: Qunk/(Vlad Dracula) shot 8botticus/(Freddy Rathalos) with the disabler beam (NEWHP: 22)  (Central Primary Hallway (128,138,4))
[2023-11-02 18:06:57.250] ATTACK: Qunk/(Vlad Dracula) fired at [firelock] with the disabler beam from Central Primary Hallway (Central Primary Hallway (128,138,4))
[2023-11-02 18:06:57.815] ATTACK: Qunk/(Vlad Dracula) fired at [floor] with the disabler beam from Central Primary Hallway (Central Primary Hallway (129,138,4))
[2023-11-02 18:06:57.928] ATTACK: Qunk/(Vlad Dracula) shot 8botticus/(Freddy Rathalos) with the disabler beam (NEWHP: 22)  (Central Primary Hallway (129,138,4))
[2023-11-02 18:06:58.420] ATTACK: Qunk/(Vlad Dracula) fired at [floor] with the disabler beam from Central Primary Hallway (Central Primary Hallway (129,138,4))
[2023-11-02 18:06:59.031] ATTACK: Qunk/(Vlad Dracula) shot TheLoLSwat/(Lisa Green) with the disabler beam (NEWHP: 93.6)  (Central Primary Hallway (129,135,4))
[2023-11-02 18:06:59.936] ATTACK: Qunk/(Vlad Dracula) fired at [floor] with the disabler beam from Central Primary Hallway (Central Primary Hallway (129,131,4))
[2023-11-02 18:07:00.344] ATTACK: Qunk/(Vlad Dracula) fired at [Central Access] with the disabler beam from Central Primary Hallway (Central Primary Hallway (129,130,4))
[2023-11-02 18:07:00.790] ATTACK: Qunk/(Vlad Dracula) fired at [floor] with the disabler beam from Central Primary Hallway (Central Primary Hallway (130,129,4))
[2023-11-02 18:07:00.944] ATTACK: Qunk/(Vlad Dracula) shot TheLoLSwat/(Lisa Green) with the disabler beam (NEWHP: 93.6)  (Central Primary Hallway (130,129,4))
[2023-11-02 18:07:01.300] ATTACK: Qunk/(Vlad Dracula) fired at 8botticus/(Freddy Rathalos) with the disabler beam from Central Primary Hallway (NEWHP: 17.5)  (Central Primary Hallway (130,129,4))
[2023-11-02 18:07:01.500] ATTACK: Qunk/(Vlad Dracula) shot TheLoLSwat/(Lisa Green) with the disabler beam (NEWHP: 93.6)  (Central Primary Hallway (130,129,4))
[2023-11-02 18:07:01.910] ATTACK: Qunk/(Vlad Dracula) fired at 8botticus/(Freddy Rathalos) with the disabler beam from Starboard Primary Hallway (NEWHP: 17.5)  (Starboard Primary Hallway (131,129,4))
[2023-11-02 18:07:01.911] ATTACK: Qunk/(Vlad Dracula) shot 8botticus/(Freddy Rathalos) with the disabler beam (NEWHP: 17.5)  (Starboard Primary Hallway (131,129,4))
[2023-11-02 18:07:02.340] ATTACK: Qunk/(Vlad Dracula) fired at [floor] with the disabler beam from Starboard Primary Hallway (Starboard Primary Hallway (131,129,4))
[2023-11-02 18:07:02.714] ATTACK: Satan On Wheels/(Barthalamue Ortinboch) shot Qunk/(Vlad Dracula) with the freeze beam (NEWHP: 100)  (Central Primary Hallway (130,128,4))
[2023-11-02 18:07:02.818] ATTACK: Qunk/(Vlad Dracula) fired at [floor] with the disabler beam from Starboard Primary Hallway (Starboard Primary Hallway (131,129,4))
[2023-11-02 18:07:03.321] ATTACK: Qunk/(Vlad Dracula) fired at 8botticus/(Freddy Rathalos) with the disabler beam from Central Primary Hallway (NEWHP: 16.3)  (Central Primary Hallway (130,129,4))
[2023-11-02 18:07:03.422] ATTACK: Qunk/(Vlad Dracula) shot 8botticus/(Freddy Rathalos) with the disabler beam (NEWHP: 16.3)  (Central Primary Hallway (130,129,4))
[2023-11-02 18:07:04.176] ATTACK: Qunk/(Vlad Dracula) fired at 8botticus/(Freddy Rathalos) with the disabler beam from Central Primary Hallway (NEWHP: 16.3)  (Central Primary Hallway (130,129,4))
[2023-11-02 18:07:04.276] ATTACK: Qunk/(Vlad Dracula) shot 8botticus/(Freddy Rathalos) with the disabler beam (NEWHP: 14.8)  (Central Primary Hallway (130,129,4))
[2023-11-02 18:07:04.728] ATTACK: Qunk/(Vlad Dracula) fired at [energy gun] with the disabler beam from Central Primary Hallway (Central Primary Hallway (130,129,4))
[2023-11-02 18:07:05.342] ATTACK: Qunk/(Vlad Dracula) fired at [energy gun] with the disabler beam from Central Primary Hallway (Central Primary Hallway (130,129,4))
[2023-11-02 18:07:11.978] ATTACK: Qunk/(Vlad Dracula) grabbed 8botticus/(Freddy Rathalos) passive grab (NEWHP: 12.3)  (Starboard Primary Hallway (131,129,4))

This started the entire Engineering war in question.

The other two who participated with you and the CE were both antagonists in the original, but you incited the fight by robbing the armory and giving the guns to Engineering. Furthermore, Engineering declared itself split from Command because of the war, which, coupled with the amount of weaponry you stole and gave to the engineers, meant the captain saw fit to legitimately kill the engineers for it because of collusion.

The entire war and seccession between the Captain and Engineering was a result of your actions because you decided to steal from the armory roundstart, basically self-antagging.

This is prime self-antagging, you have had been banned for self-antag behavior like this before. You have been perma'd for intentional sm delamming (twice) as a nonantag and all this falls under Rule 1. The appeal is denied and I ask you appeal in a year

Edit: with a vouch from another server.

[Qunk]

uh, yeah? I didn't deny any of that? As I said earlier, I may have used lethals but I just wanted to crit him and if I did I would've brought him to med (again if I wanted to kill him I would have just done it after we downed him). I also didn't deny breaking into the armory, but that just isn't against the rules (in fact it's sort of explicitly said that its fine as long as its interesting or adds to the round, which this definitely was and did). I'm also perfectly aware of what I got banned for previously, but me actively trying to destroy the entire station is on an entirely different level from trying to kill one guy who wiped out an entire department and a half (and made no attempt to revive any of them, despite the fact that we spared him multiple times). This was an IC situation that was handled in-game, and I really don't see a reason for bans to be handed out (not even to the captain). I really hope you get a second opinion on this, whether from another admin or even the captain/CE themselves

[Isratosh]

I really hope you get a second opinion on this, whether from another admin or even the captain/CE themselves

The captain was only cool with it because they thought you and the CE were antagonists. Robbing the armoury and starting a war with the captain is something an antagonist is expected to do, which neither of you were. A ban was also given to the CE for the events of this round.

[Archie700]

I had also discussed this with other admins prior to the ban and those who were on at that time were in agreement.
This is denied, you may call for a headmin review.

[Qunk]

I mean it's certainly something an antagonist is more likely to do, but that doesn't make it against the rules (I've like triple checked at this point and I can't find any rule I broke that would call for a ban, much less a perma). Again, I only tried to kill the captain after he killed everyone else, and even then i failed. like i didnt even loot him after we downed him, I'm genuinely confused about what this is for

also the CE wasn't banned though? https://tgstation13.org/tgdb/publicbans.php

[AwkwardStereo]

I mean it's certainly something an antagonist is more likely to do, but that doesn't make it against the rules (I've like triple checked at this point and I can't find any rule I broke that would call for a ban, much less a perma). Again, I only tried to kill the captain after he killed everyone else, and even then i failed. like i didnt even loot him after we downed him, I'm genuinely confused about what this is for

also the CE wasn't banned though? https://tgstation13.org/tgdb/publicbans.php

Public bans (that link) only displays permanent server and role bans. Any ban with an expiration date will not appear on that list.

Only admins get to see temp bans.

[Vekter]

I mean it's certainly something an antagonist is more likely to do, but that doesn't make it against the rules...

Self-antagging is covered under rule 1.

[Qunk]

my point was that this wasn't self antagging, i didnt try to kill anyone (except in revenge at the end) and i didnt even steal personal items. as i said earlier, engineering was almost entirely defensive after the initial armory heist, or at least i was

[Cheshify]

Headmin Review wasn't called, but this appeal seems to be at a standstill.
You seem to be uninformed to our actual ruleset, which is odd considering your history. To fill you in, there's a good section in the rules that can be attributed to banning "raiding the armory without cause".

Rule 1 Precedent 4
Unprovoked grief (occasionally known as greytiding), repeated cases of minor unprovoked grief, and unprovoked grief targeted towards specific players or groups (i.e. metagrudging) fall under rule 1. Admins may follow up on grief with allowing the affected parties to ignore normal escalation policy or measures such as warnings or bans.

Namely, the line Unprovoked grief (occasionally known as greytiding). Breaking into someone else's department for no reason other than to escalate to an all-out interdepartmental war is Self Antagging because you are taking the actions of an antagonist (fighting security and arming yourself, stealing from the armory, killing the captain) as a non-antagonist. The escalation does not matter when the crux of the entire fight is your improper actions at the start of it all.

Cheshify - Uphold
Fikou -
TheBibleMelts - Uphold