[TBM] Annihilite - This is incredibly frustrating.

[Annihilite111]

Ban Details
BYOND account: Annihilite
Character name: GOON U35
Ban type: note
Ban length: Permanent
Ban reason: Warned about potentially releasing harmful prisoners as an Asimov AI - in this case, the prisoner had been proven harmful and their AI was repeatedly telling them to not release them. "Releasing prisoners, locking down security without probable cause, or otherwise sabotaging the security team when not obligated to by orders or laws is a violation of Server Rule 1. Nonviolent prisoners cannot be assumed harmful and violent prisoners cannot be assumed non-harmful. Releasing a harmful criminal is a harmful act."
Time ban was placed:2023-11-26 23:39:33
Server you were playing on when banned: Manuel
Round ID in which ban was placed: Round 219567
Reasons for Appealing - Delete irrelevant sections
Is the reason/note factually accurate and fair?: no
If no, please provide more details: The note both misrepresents what happened and seems to misunderstand the rule it is quoting. I, a borg, went into brig and noticed a beat up human in cuffs. The human ordered me to take him away from the brig, which I did. The AI made no orders until long after the fact. I told you this. The prisoner also hadn't been "proven harmful" to me as I had not seen them do anything aside from being cuffed. I told you this too. The ruling quoted in the note also doesn't contradict anything I did, which I will demonstrate by going over it part by part:

"Releasing prisoners, locking down security without probable cause, or otherwise sabotaging the security team when not obligated to by orders or laws is a violation of Server Rule 1": I was obligated to by orders from the prisoner. This rule is meant to stop silicons from doing this unprompted, which I did not.

"Nonviolent prisoners cannot be assumed harmful and violent prisoners cannot be assumed non-harmful. Releasing a harmful criminal is a harmful act.": This directly supports my actions. It says I cannot assume a prisoner harmful until it has been observed to do violence. I therefore did not release a harmful criminal.

[TheBibleMelts]

going over the logs here, it looks like you started whisking the prisoner away here.

Code: Select all

10:44:39	SAY	annihilite/(ROOK U349) "no harm!"	(114, 165, 4)	Brig Entrance
10:44:47	SAY	annihilite/(ROOK U349) "only prison!"	(113, 165, 4)	Brig Entrance
10:44:51	SAY	annihilite/(ROOK U349) "okay?"	(114, 165, 4)	Brig Entrance
10:44:53	GAME	annihilite/(ROOK U349) is now being ridden by Nyla Harlow.	(114, 164, 4)	Brig Entrance
10:44:53	GAME	Crayno/(Nyla Harlow) started riding ROOK U349.	(114, 165, 4)	Brig Entrance
10:44:54	GAME	Crayno/(Nyla Harlow) is no longer riding ROOK U349.	(114, 163, 4)	Brig Entrance
10:44:54	GAME	annihilite/(ROOK U349) is no longer being ridden by Nyla Harlow.

were told by the captain here to stop, which was ignored.

Code: Select all

10:45:05	SAY	Tostah/(Allison Brie) "borg stop"	(112, 164, 4)	Brig Entrance
10:45:15	SAY	Tostah/(Allison Brie) "no borg you cant do that, thats a prisoner. Taking them away causes human harm."	(112, 157, 4)	Brig Entrance
10:45:30	EMOTE	Tostah/(Allison Brie) points at ROOK U349	(129, 123, 4)	Central Primary Hallway
10:45:30	EMOTE	Tostah/(Allison Brie) points at ROOK U349	(129, 123, 4)	Central Primary Hallway
10:45:30	EMOTE	Tostah/(Allison Brie) points at ROOK U349	(129, 123, 4)	Central Primary Hallway
10:45:30	EMOTE	Tostah/(Allison Brie) points at ROOK U349	(129, 123, 4)	Central Primary Hallway

after a chase(the prisoner had a freedom implant), had a conversation with said captain, where they explicitly told you that it was a harmful prisoner who had tried to kill them.

Code: Select all

10:45:36	SAY	annihilite/(ROOK U349) "my laws do not recognise that moving the prisoner breaches law 1"	(129, 128, 4)	Central Primary Hallway
10:45:41	SAY	Tostah/(Allison Brie) "It does."	(115, 112, 4)	Central Primary Hallway
10:45:45	SAY	Tostah/(Allison Brie) "You are interpreting them wrong"	(115, 112, 4)	Central Primary Hallway
10:45:46	SAY	annihilite/(ROOK U349) "they do not"	(129, 128, 4)	Central Primary Hallway
10:45:57	SAY	Tostah/(Allison Brie) "breaking a prisoner out of prison is a violatin of law 1"	(128, 117, 4)	Central Primary Hallway
10:45:57	SAY	annihilite/(ROOK U349) "i or my AI must view the prisoner cause human harm"	(129, 128, 4)	Central Primary Hallway
10:46:14	SAY	Tostah/(Allison Brie) "Yes. Blowing me up."	(134, 129, 4)	Starboard Primary Hallway
10:46:20	SAY	annihilite/(ROOK U349) "otherwise we must follow the orders of all humans, prisoners included"	(96, 132, 4)	Central Primary Hallway
10:46:27	SAY	annihilite/(ROOK U349) "i did not view this alledged event"	(96, 132, 4)	Central Primary Hallway

here's the attack logs from nyla, where it includes that they were actively using freedom implants and fighting security while you were talking with the captain.

Code: Select all

10:44:39	ATTACK	Crayno/(Nyla Harlow) shoved Tostah/(Allison Brie) (NEWHP: 99.7)	(114, 166, 4)	Brig Entrance
10:44:43	ATTACK	Crayno/(Nyla Harlow) shoved Tostah/(Allison Brie) (NEWHP: 99.7)	(112, 164, 4)	Brig Entrance
10:44:46	ATTACK	Tostah/(Allison Brie) stun attacked Crayno/(Nyla Harlow) with the telescopic baton (NEWHP: 89.3)	(114, 165, 4)	Brig Entrance
10:44:49	ATTACK	Tostah/(Allison Brie) grabbed Crayno/(Nyla Harlow) passive grab (NEWHP: 89.3)	(113, 164, 4)	Brig Entrance
10:44:49	ATTACK	Tostah/(Allison Brie) broke grab Crayno/(Nyla Harlow) (NEWHP: 89.3)	(113, 164, 4)	Brig Entrance
10:44:52	ATTACK	Tostah/(Allison Brie) shoved Crayno/(Nyla Harlow) with knocking them down (NEWHP: 89.3)	(113, 165, 4)	Brig Entrance
10:44:54	ATTACK	Tostah/(Allison Brie) kicks Crayno/(Nyla Harlow) with onto their side (paralyzing) (NEWHP: 89.3)	(113, 165, 4)	Brig Entrance
10:44:54	ATTACK	Tostah/(Allison Brie) shoved Crayno/(Nyla Harlow) (NEWHP: 89.3)	(113, 165, 4)	Brig Entrance
10:44:58	ATTACK	Insertgoodnamehere/(Lou Cherry) attempted to handcuff Crayno/(Nyla Harlow) (NEWHP: 89.3)	(113, 163, 4)	Brig Entrance
10:45:00	ATTACK	Insertgoodnamehere/(Lou Cherry) failed to handcuff Crayno/(Nyla Harlow) (NEWHP: 89.3)	(113, 163, 4)	Brig Entrance
10:45:03	ATTACK	annihilite/(ROOK U349) grabbed Crayno/(Nyla Harlow) passive grab (NEWHP: 89.3)	(114, 165, 4)	Brig Entrance
10:45:22	ATTACK	Insertgoodnamehere/(Lou Cherry) stun attacked Crayno/(Nyla Harlow) with the stun baton (NEWHP: 89.3)	(107, 112, 4)	Central Primary Hallway
10:45:26	ATTACK	Uncle_Fruit_VEVO/(Andre Michigan) stun attacked Crayno/(Nyla Harlow) with the telescopic baton (NEWHP: 89.3)	(106, 112, 4)	Central Primary Hallway
10:45:27	ATTACK	Insertgoodnamehere/(Lou Cherry) stun attacked Crayno/(Nyla Harlow) with the stun baton (NEWHP: 89.3)	(106, 111, 4)	Central Primary Hallway
10:45:28	ATTACK	Insertgoodnamehere/(Lou Cherry) attempted to handcuff Crayno/(Nyla Harlow) (NEWHP: 89.3)	(104, 111, 4)	Central Primary Hallway
10:45:29	ATTACK	Uncle_Fruit_VEVO/(Andre Michigan) grabbed Crayno/(Nyla Harlow) passive grab (NEWHP: 89.3)	(105, 112, 4)	Central Primary Hallway
10:45:31	ATTACK	Insertgoodnamehere/(Lou Cherry) handcuffed Crayno/(Nyla Harlow) (NEWHP: 89.3)	(104, 111, 4)	Central Primary Hallway
10:45:32	ATTACK	Insertgoodnamehere/(Lou Cherry) grabbed Crayno/(Nyla Harlow) passive grab (NEWHP: 89.3)	(104, 111, 4)	Central Primary Hallway
10:45:32	ATTACK	Crayno/(Nyla Harlow) pulled from Uncle_Fruit_VEVO/(Andre Michigan) with Lou Cherry (NEWHP: 100)	(105, 111, 4)	Central Primary Hallway
10:45:39	ATTACK	Insertgoodnamehere/(Lou Cherry) shaken Crayno/(Nyla Harlow) (NEWHP: 89.3)	(97, 126, 4)	Central Primary Hallway
10:45:41	ATTACK	Crayno/(Nyla Harlow) shoved Insertgoodnamehere/(Lou Cherry) (NEWHP: 100)	(97, 122, 4)	Central Primary Hallway
10:45:42	ATTACK	Insertgoodnamehere/(Lou Cherry) stun attacked Crayno/(Nyla Harlow) with the stun baton (NEWHP: 89.3)	(98, 120, 4)	Central Primary Hallway
10:45:42	ATTACK	Crayno/(Nyla Harlow) shoved Insertgoodnamehere/(Lou Cherry) (NEWHP: 100)	(98, 119, 4)	Central Primary Hallway
10:45:45	ATTACK	Insertgoodnamehere/(Lou Cherry) stun attacked Crayno/(Nyla Harlow) with the stun baton (NEWHP: 89.3)	(97, 117, 4)	Central Primary Hallway
10:45:47	ATTACK	Uncle_Fruit_VEVO/(Andre Michigan) stun attacked Crayno/(Nyla Harlow) with the telescopic baton (NEWHP: 89.3)	(96, 116, 4)	Central Primary Hallway
10:45:47	ATTACK	Insertgoodnamehere/(Lou Cherry) grabbed Crayno/(Nyla Harlow) passive grab (NEWHP: 89.3)	(97, 117, 4)	Central Primary Hallway
10:45:48	ATTACK	Insertgoodnamehere/(Lou Cherry) stun attacked Crayno/(Nyla Harlow) with the stun baton (NEWHP: 89.3)	(97, 118, 4)	Central Primary Hallway
10:45:50	ATTACK	Insertgoodnamehere/(Lou Cherry) stun attacked Crayno/(Nyla Harlow) with the stun baton (NEWHP: 89.3)	(97, 125, 4)	Central Primary Hallway
10:45:52	ATTACK	Uncle_Fruit_VEVO/(Andre Michigan) attempted to handcuff Crayno/(Nyla Harlow) (NEWHP: 89.3)	(96, 125, 4)	Central Primary Hallway
10:45:53	ATTACK	Insertgoodnamehere/(Lou Cherry) stun attacked Crayno/(Nyla Harlow) with the stun baton (NEWHP: 89.3)	(98, 125, 4)	Central Primary Hallway
10:45:56	ATTACK	Uncle_Fruit_VEVO/(Andre Michigan) handcuffed Crayno/(Nyla Harlow) (NEWHP: 89.3)	(96, 125, 4)	Central Primary Hallway
10:45:57	ATTACK	Insertgoodnamehere/(Lou Cherry) stun attacked Crayno/(Nyla Harlow) with the stun baton (NEWHP: 89.3)	(98, 125, 4)	Central Primary Hallway
10:46:00	ATTACK	Insertgoodnamehere/(Lou Cherry) stun attacked Crayno/(Nyla Harlow) with the stun baton (NEWHP: 89.3)	(97, 135, 4)	Central Primary Hallway
10:46:07	ATTACK	Uncle_Fruit_VEVO/(Andre Michigan) stun attacked Crayno/(Nyla Harlow) with the telescopic baton (NEWHP: 89.3)	(107, 141, 4)	Central Primary Hallway
10:46:14	ATTACK	Uncle_Fruit_VEVO/(Andre Michigan) grabbed Crayno/(Nyla Harlow) passive grab (NEWHP: 89.3)	(112, 148, 4)	Fore Primary Hallway
10:46:15	ATTACK	Insertgoodnamehere/(Lou Cherry) sprayed Crayno/(Nyla Harlow) with the pepperspray which had /datum/reagent/consumable/condensedcapsaicin (10u, 0.5 purity) (NEWHP: 89.3)	(113, 149, 4)	Fore Primary Hallway
10:46:16	ATTACK	Uncle_Fruit_VEVO/(Andre Michigan) stun attacked Crayno/(Nyla Harlow) with the telescopic baton (NEWHP: 89.3)	(112, 149, 4)	Fore Primary Hallway
10:46:17	ATTACK	Crayno/(Nyla Harlow) pulled from Uncle_Fruit_VEVO/(Andre Michigan) with Lou Cherry (NEWHP: 100)	(112, 148, 4)	Fore Primary Hallway
10:46:17	ATTACK	Insertgoodnamehere/(Lou Cherry) grabbed Crayno/(Nyla Harlow) passive grab (NEWHP: 89.3)	(113, 149, 4)	Fore Primary Hallway
10:46:28	ATTACK	Uncle_Fruit_VEVO/(Andre Michigan) stun attacked Crayno/(Nyla Harlow) with the telescopic baton (NEWHP: 89.3)	(112, 165, 4)	Brig Entrance
10:46:35	ATTACK	Uncle_Fruit_VEVO/(Andre Michigan) stun attacked Crayno/(Nyla Harlow) with the telescopic baton (NEWHP: 89.3)	(112, 171, 4)	Brig Overlook
10:46:40	ATTACK	MilitaryofZeon/(Harper Sanguine) attempted to handcuff Crayno/(Nyla Harlow) (NEWHP: 89.3)	(113, 172, 4)	Brig Overlook
10:46:40	ATTACK	Uncle_Fruit_VEVO/(Andre Michigan) stun attacked Crayno/(Nyla Harlow) with the telescopic baton (NEWHP: 89.3)	(111, 172, 4)	Brig Overlook
10:46:43	ATTACK	MilitaryofZeon/(Harper Sanguine) handcuffed Crayno/(Nyla Harlow) (NEWHP: 89.3)	(113, 172, 4)	Brig Overlook
10:46:56	ATTACK	Insertgoodnamehere/(Lou Cherry) grabbed Crayno/(Nyla Harlow) aggressive grab (NEWHP: 89.3)	(112, 173, 4)	Brig Overlook
10:46:57	ATTACK	Crayno/(Nyla Harlow) pulled from Insertgoodnamehere/(Lou Cherry) with Harper Sanguine (NEWHP: 100)	(112, 173, 4)	Brig Overlook
10:46:57	ATTACK	MilitaryofZeon/(Harper Sanguine) grabbed Crayno/(Nyla Harlow) passive grab (NEWHP: 89.3)	(113, 172, 4)	Brig Overlook
10:47:12	ATTACK	Crayno/(Nyla Harlow) shoved MilitaryofZeon/(Harper Sanguine) with knocking them down (NEWHP: 100)	(101, 171, 3)	Brig
10:47:13	ATTACK	MilitaryofZeon/(Harper Sanguine) shaken Crayno/(Nyla Harlow) (NEWHP: 89.3)	(102, 171, 3)	Brig
10:47:15	ATTACK	Crayno/(Nyla Harlow) attacked [��Brig omni air vent V1yu0] with the disabler	(101, 171, 3)	Brig
10:47:16	ATTACK	Crayno/(Nyla Harlow) attacked [��Brig omni air vent V1yu0] with the disabler	(101, 171, 3)	Brig
10:47:17	ATTACK	Crayno/(Nyla Harlow) fired at [floor] with the disabler beam from Brig	(101, 171, 3)	Brig
10:47:17	ATTACK	Crayno/(Nyla Harlow) shot MilitaryofZeon/(Harper Sanguine) with the disabler beam (NEWHP: 100)	(101, 171, 3)	Brig
10:47:17	ATTACK	Crayno/(Nyla Harlow) fired at [floor] with the disabler beam from Brig	(101, 173, 3)	Brig
10:47:17	ATTACK	Crayno/(Nyla Harlow) shot MilitaryofZeon/(Harper Sanguine) with the disabler beam (NEWHP: 100)	(101, 173, 3)	Brig
10:47:18	ATTACK	MilitaryofZeon/(Harper Sanguine) stun attacked Crayno/(Nyla Harlow) with the stun baton (NEWHP: 89.3)	(101, 174, 3)	Brig
10:47:18	ATTACK	Crayno/(Nyla Harlow) fired at [floor] with the disabler beam from Brig	(101, 173, 3)	Brig
10:47:18	ATTACK	Crayno/(Nyla Harlow) fired at [floor] with the disabler beam from Brig	(101, 174, 3)	Brig
10:47:19	ATTACK	Crayno/(Nyla Harlow) fired at [full tile reinforced window] with the disabler beam from Brig	(101, 175, 3)	Brig
10:47:20	ATTACK	Crayno/(Nyla Harlow) fired at [floor] with the disabler beam from Brig	(101, 174, 3)	Brig
10:47:22	ATTACK	MilitaryofZeon/(Harper Sanguine) stun attacked Crayno/(Nyla Harlow) with the stun baton (NEWHP: 89.3)	(102, 172, 3)	Brig
10:47:25	ATTACK	MilitaryofZeon/(Harper Sanguine) stun attacked Crayno/(Nyla Harlow) with the stun baton (NEWHP: 89.3)	(102, 171, 3)	Brig
10:47:30	ATTACK	MilitaryofZeon/(Harper Sanguine) attempted to handcuff Crayno/(Nyla Harlow) (NEWHP: 89.3)	(102, 171, 3)	Brig
10:47:33	ATTACK	MilitaryofZeon/(Harper Sanguine) handcuffed Crayno/(Nyla Harlow) (NEWHP: 89.3)	(102, 171, 3)	Brig

[TheBibleMelts]

the policy regarding harmful prisoners

Asimov and Security
Releasing prisoners, locking down security without probable cause, or otherwise sabotaging the security team when not obligated to by orders or laws is a violation of Server Rule 1.
Nonviolent prisoners cannot be assumed harmful and violent prisoners cannot be assumed non-harmful. Releasing a harmful criminal is a harmful act.

i would say that a human (the captain) telling you that they tried to blow them up is enough cause for you to not to be able to justify trying to release them with law 1 anymore.

[TheBibleMelts]

i did definitely typo cyborg with AI in the note though, and the captain was the one who told you not to assist them, but you did also spend a very lengthy time in a weirdly OOC conversation in binary talking about policies to them in order to justify not having to listen to them telling you to back off.

[Annihilite111]

the policy regarding harmful prisoners

Asimov and Security
Releasing prisoners, locking down security without probable cause, or otherwise sabotaging the security team when not obligated to by orders or laws is a violation of Server Rule 1.
Nonviolent prisoners cannot be assumed harmful and violent prisoners cannot be assumed non-harmful. Releasing a harmful criminal is a harmful act.

i would say that a human (the captain) telling you that they tried to blow them up is enough cause for you to not to be able to justify trying to release them with law 1 anymore.

Okay but this is...after I release the prisoner. We're in central primary hallway, and since we're talking it's very obvious that the prisoner has already gotten off me and ran.

[Annihilite111]

i did definitely typo cyborg with AI in the note though, and the captain was the one who told you not to assist them, but you did also spend a very lengthy time in a weirdly OOC conversation in binary talking about policies to them in order to justify not having to listen to them telling you to back off.

One: Yes we talked about policy in binary because that discussion is sometimes necessary when playing sillycone. In this case I believed that my interpretation of my laws was the correct one, which is why I defended it.
Two: The AI didn't tell me anything until after the event. I did not release any prisoners or even see the one I released afterward.

[TheBibleMelts]

binary chat here where you were talking about the policy. the AI did have to repeatedly inform you to stop after the fact, and the captain had to repeatedly tell you to stop during the fact.

Code: Select all

10:47:13	SAY	Korusho/(Blaine) (binary) "Do not let prisoners out, period. You go through the staff in Command or Security to interact with the permabrig or gulag."	(150, 25, 4)	AI Chamber
10:47:22	SAY	annihilite/(ROOK U349) (binary) "AI we are on asimov"	(129, 115, 4)	Central Primary Hallway
10:47:34	SAY	Korusho/(Blaine) (binary) "And I'm passing down a directive down."	(150, 25, 4)	AI Chamber
10:47:42	SAY	annihilite/(ROOK U349) (binary) "We are not allowed to disregard our law priorities because of the command chain"	(129, 114, 4)	Central Primary Hallway
10:47:53	SAY	Korusho/(Blaine) (binary) "Do not. Interact. With. The Permabrig."	(150, 25, 4)	AI Chamber
10:47:56	SAY	annihilite/(ROOK U349) (binary) "The only exception is high security areas"	(129, 114, 4)	Central Primary Hallway
10:48:08	SAY	Korusho/(Blaine) (binary) "THE PERMABRIG IS A HIGH SECURITY AREA."	(150, 25, 4)	AI Chamber
10:48:12	SAY	annihilite/(ROOK U349) (binary) "It is not"	(129, 114, 4)	Central Primary Hallway
10:48:25	SAY	annihilite/(ROOK U349) (binary) "Policy states that only atmospherics, the armory and toxins are"	(129, 114, 4)	Central Primary Hallway
10:48:35	SAY	annihilite/(ROOK U349) (binary) "Please read up on policy"	(130, 128, 4)	Central Primary Hallway
10:48:53	SAY	annihilite/(ROOK U349) (binary) "We are not security aligned. We are human aligned"	(153, 129, 4)	Starboard Primary Hallway
10:49:57	SAY	annihilite/(ROOK U349) (binary) "It was not a prisoner"	(156, 115, 4)	Medbay Aft
10:50:06	SAY	annihilite/(ROOK U349) (binary) "It was a non prisoner in brig"	(156, 115, 4)	Medbay Aft
10:52:12	SAY	annihilite/(ROOK U349) (binary) "Also you misread the policy bit. The etc. only applies to areas it would be dangerous for a non department member to access"

the captain, a human who was harmed by the person being brought in, told you they were harmful and you continued insisting that you were in the right to do so. it is correct that you did not release more prisoners after this, which is why this was a warning, and not a silicon ban - this notes function is what it says it is, a warning against releasing prisoners who you've been led to believe with good reason to be harmful.

[TheBibleMelts]

also i'm big dumb and forgot to post nyla's logs from when this started in the first post with allison's

Code: Select all

10:43:47	SAY	Crayno/(Nyla Harlow) "YOU STOPPED ME FROM KILLING AN ASISTANT.."	(161, 105, 4)	Fore Operating Room
10:43:50	SAY	Crayno/(Nyla Harlow) "why?"	(161, 105, 4)	Fore Operating Room
10:43:56	SAY	Crayno/(Nyla Harlow) "I cannot hear you"	(160, 105, 4)	Fore Operating Room
10:44:10	EMOTE	Crayno/(Nyla Harlow) coughs!	(129, 134, 4)	Central Primary Hallway
10:44:14	EMOTE	Crayno/(Nyla Harlow) coughs!	(114, 143, 4)	Central Primary Hallway
10:44:22	SAY	Crayno/(Nyla Harlow) "fuck you cap"	(114, 173, 4)	Brig Overlook
10:44:39	EMOTE	Crayno/(Nyla Harlow) coughs!	(114, 166, 4)	Brig Entrance
10:44:53	GAME	annihilite/(ROOK U349) is now being ridden by Nyla Harlow.	(114, 164, 4)	Brig Entrance
10:44:53	GAME	Crayno/(Nyla Harlow) started riding ROOK U349.	(114, 165, 4)	Brig Entrance
10:44:54	GAME	Crayno/(Nyla Harlow) is no longer riding ROOK U349.	(114, 163, 4)	Brig Entrance
10:44:54	GAME	annihilite/(ROOK U349) is no longer being ridden by Nyla Harlow.	(114, 163, 4)	Brig Entrance
10:44:59	SAY	Crayno/(Nyla Harlow) "borg take ma away law 2"	(114, 163, 4)	Brig Entrance
10:45:11	EMOTE	Uncle_Fruit_VEVO/(Andre Michigan) points at Nyla Harlow	(97, 135, 4)	Central Primary Hallway
10:45:12	EMOTE	Uncle_Fruit_VEVO/(Andre Michigan) points at Nyla Harlow	(97, 132, 4)	Central Primary Hallway
10:45:13	SAY	Crayno/(Nyla Harlow) "to sart borg"	(97, 123, 4)	Central Primary Hallway
10:45:33	SAY	Crayno/(Nyla Harlow) "BORG SAVE ME LAW @"	(100, 111, 4)	Central Primary Hallway
10:45:57	SAY	Crayno/(Nyla Harlow) "help"	(98, 126, 4)	Central Primary Hallway
10:45:59	SAY	Crayno/(Nyla Harlow) "me"	(97, 133, 4)	Central Primary Hallway
10:46:13	EMOTE	Insertgoodnamehere/(Lou Cherry) points at Nyla Harlow	(114, 149, 4)	Fore Primary Hallway
10:46:15	EMOTE	Crayno/(Nyla Harlow) cries.	(113, 148, 4)	Fore Primary Hallway
10:46:22	EMOTE	Insertgoodnamehere/(Lou Cherry) points at Nyla Harlow	(113, 160, 4)	Brig Entrance
10:46:23	SAY	Crayno/(Nyla Harlow) "I hate you all"	(113, 160, 4)	Brig Entrance
10:46:35	SAY	Crayno/(Nyla Harlow) "I thought you were on my side"	(112, 172, 4)	Brig Overlook
10:46:41	SAY	Crayno/(Nyla Harlow) "wow"	(112, 172, 4)	Brig Overlook
10:46:52	SAY	Crayno/(Nyla Harlow) "WHY WONT YOU LET ME KILL AN ASSISTANT!!"	(112, 172, 4)	Brig Overlook
10:46:58	SAY	Crayno/(Nyla Harlow) "does their life mean something"	(112, 173, 4)	Brig Overlook
10:47:30	SAY	Crayno/(Nyla Harlow) "fuck my implant ran out"	(101, 171, 3)	Brig
10:47:49	SAY	Crayno/(Nyla Harlow) "IT"S AND ASISTANT NOT YOUR MOTHER"	(105, 172, 3)	Transfer Centre
10:47:57	SAY	Crayno/(Nyla Harlow) "IF YOU PUT THAT SHIT ON ME I KILL YOU"	(105, 172, 3)	Transfer Centre
10:48:12	SAY	Crayno/(Nyla Harlow) "hahaha"	(117, 183, 2)	Prison Gym
10:48:49	SAY	MilitaryofZeon/(Harper Sanguine) "Nyla used their freedom implant and tried to escape."	(104, 175, 3)	Brig
10:48:56	SAY	Insertgoodnamehere/(Lou Cherry) "warden can you add nyla harlow"	(112, 168, 4)	Brig Overlook
10:48:56	SAY	Crayno/(Nyla Harlow) "asistant your days are nubered"	(107, 185, 3)	Prison Wing
10:49:54	SAY	Crayno/(Nyla Harlow) "asistant you will perish one day"	(107, 185, 3)	Prison Wing
10:50:54	SAY	Crayno/(Nyla Harlow) "AI LAW 2 BREAK ME OUT!!"	(110, 179, 3)	Prison Wing
10:53:40	SAY	Crayno/(Nyla Harlow) "cap you will perish"	(107, 185, 3)	Prison Wing
10:53:54	SAY	Crayno/(Nyla Harlow) "and I must say when is the last time you checked perma"	(109, 185, 3)	Prison Wing
10:55:06	GAME	Crayno/(Nyla Harlow) reset a fire alarm.	(104, 186, 3)	Prison Wing

[TheBibleMelts]

would adjusting the note from

Warned about potentially releasing harmful prisoners as an Asimov Cyborg. This round, released a prisoner without knowing whether or not they were harmful. Was told shortly after that they were, but insisted that without visually confirming the harm themselves, they were required to free them even mid-arrest - and argued with their AI/The Captain who was attacked by the prisoner, that they were in the right after the case. Before releasing a prisoner via law 2, you should verify whether or not they are harmful with the officers/your AI.

to

Warned about potentially releasing harmful prisoners as an Asimov Cyborg. This round, released a prisoner without knowing whether or not they were harmful. Was told shortly after that they were, but insisted that without visually confirming the harm themselves, they were required to free them even mid-arrest - and argued with their AI/The Captain who was attacked by the prisoner, that they were still in the right even after the situation had resolved. Before releasing a prisoner via Law 2, you should verify whether or not they are harmful with the officers/your AI.

be acceptable? i don't think my wording in the note was fantastic for what i was trying to get across as the warning, and had somebody with a more practice at it explain a better way to convey that. (thx vek)

[Annihilite111]

While this amendment presents a more accurate picture of events, I am still being noted for policy which as far as i can tell doesn't exist. The only related ruling (which you included in the note) doesn't say that security/command can designate humans as harmful, and i've frankly never heard of that being a thing aside from when the captain/HOS specifically adds a custom law saying that they can.
The standard for asimov harm has always been "did you or your AI personally see it?". That's why the reeducation chamber doesn't have cameras, because if the AI cannot see a prisoner get killed by sec, then as far as it knows it didn't happen even if it very obviously did.
Neither the captain nor the AI have the authority to order a borg to ignore its laws. That's why i talked back when i was ordered not to listen to prisoner orders (as a blanket statement and implying that i shouldnt have listened to the prisoner i freed) afterward.
This note seems to stem entirely from a sort of informal OOC expectation that silicons selectively try to get out of following their laws if doing so would make sec's life harder. This has in the past always been up to individual silicons to do, and isn't supposed to be mandatory which is why there's not a ruling enforcing it.
Please explain to me why this is no longer the case, and show me (or write, since you're a headmin) policy that backs that what i did was wrong.

[TheBibleMelts]

While this amendment presents a more accurate picture of events, I am still being noted for policy which as far as i can tell doesn't exist. The only related ruling (which you included in the note) doesn't say that security/command can designate humans as harmful, and i've frankly never heard of that being a thing aside from when the captain/HOS specifically adds a custom law saying that they can.
The standard for asimov harm has always been "did you or your AI personally see it?". That's why the reeducation chamber doesn't have cameras, because if the AI cannot see a prisoner get killed by sec, then as far as it knows it didn't happen even if it very obviously did.
Neither the captain nor the AI have the authority to order a borg to ignore its laws. That's why i talked back when i was ordered not to listen to prisoner orders (as a blanket statement and implying that i shouldnt have listened to the prisoner i freed) afterward.
This note seems to stem entirely from a sort of informal OOC expectation that silicons selectively try to get out of following their laws if doing so would make sec's life harder. This has in the past always been up to individual silicons to do, and isn't supposed to be mandatory which is why there's not a ruling enforcing it.
Please explain to me why this is no longer the case, and show me (or write, since you're a headmin) policy that backs that what i did was wrong.

i don't think the issue is that you messed up by trying to get out of following your laws - i think the issue was where you disregarded that security/the captain may have been arresting this person to prevent harm, immediately, with no attempt to verify with either the arresting officers, your AI, or the person being arrested if that was the case. odds are pretty high when you see the captain dragging somebody into the brig themselves, there's something serious going on related to the situation and you'd be acting reckless (and potentially harmful) in acting without the barest amount of information gathering.

[Annihilite111]

While this amendment presents a more accurate picture of events, I am still being noted for policy which as far as i can tell doesn't exist. The only related ruling (which you included in the note) doesn't say that security/command can designate humans as harmful, and i've frankly never heard of that being a thing aside from when the captain/HOS specifically adds a custom law saying that they can.
The standard for asimov harm has always been "did you or your AI personally see it?". That's why the reeducation chamber doesn't have cameras, because if the AI cannot see a prisoner get killed by sec, then as far as it knows it didn't happen even if it very obviously did.
Neither the captain nor the AI have the authority to order a borg to ignore its laws. That's why i talked back when i was ordered not to listen to prisoner orders (as a blanket statement and implying that i shouldnt have listened to the prisoner i freed) afterward.
This note seems to stem entirely from a sort of informal OOC expectation that silicons selectively try to get out of following their laws if doing so would make sec's life harder. This has in the past always been up to individual silicons to do, and isn't supposed to be mandatory which is why there's not a ruling enforcing it.
Please explain to me why this is no longer the case, and show me (or write, since you're a headmin) policy that backs that what i did was wrong.

i don't think the issue is that you messed up by trying to get out of following your laws - i think the issue was where you disregarded that security/the captain may have been arresting this person to prevent harm, immediately, with no attempt to verify with either the arresting officers, your AI, or the person being arrested if that was the case. odds are pretty high when you see the captain dragging somebody into the brig themselves, there's something serious going on related to the situation and you'd be acting reckless (and potentially harmful) in acting without the barest amount of information gathering.

This is a feature of silicons, literally baked into the laws. You CANNOT consider future, hypothetical harm against following laws unless previous harm has been witnessed. It works in security's favor when they take prisoners into reeducation and against them when their prisoners order borgs/AI to let them out. The behavior you suggest is mandatory (basically fishing for a counter order from security while delaying following the prisoner's) was considered borderline rule breaking two headmin terms ago, and there hasn't been a silipol rewrite since to justify it becoming OOC enforced behavior.
Silicons are roleplaying robots following extremely ill conceived laws that constantly unintentionally pitch them against the sensibilities of humanity, and this type of conflict was always intended to prevent them from becoming security's personal validhunting utility squad. If you don't want that you can draft new policy that gives security metaprotections against law 2'd silicons, but i really don't appreciate this expectation that following your laws can be rule 1 breaking.

If the antagonist ordered me to kill a random nonhuman i'd have done that too, and according to every preestablished ruling the responsible party would have been the person issuing the order. Are you of the opinion that i should be noted for that too unless i checked with the captain just in case?

[TheBibleMelts]

following a few conversations that i've seen in the bus about the ambiguity of this, along with taking what you've said in this post into account as to your intentions for doing what you did (i'm sorry we didn't get a ton of time to hash this out in the ticket itself due to the round coming to a close), i'm going to defer to administrators who have had a lot more practice with sillycon policy on this and lift the note. i think based on conversations you had in binary above, along with disputing the arresting captain after they'd told you they were harmful, i took your actions in worse faith than you'd actually intended here.

[Annihilite111]

following a few conversations that i've seen in the bus about the ambiguity of this, along with taking what you've said in this post into account as to your intentions for doing what you did (i'm sorry we didn't get a ton of time to hash this out in the ticket itself due to the round coming to a close), i'm going to defer to administrators who have had a lot more practice with sillycon policy on this and lift the note. i think based on conversations you had in binary above, along with disputing the arresting captain after they'd told you they were harmful, i took your actions in worse faith than you'd actually intended here.

I just didn't (and still don't think) think they were right that borgs have to check with command/sec before following law 2 orders. I said as much in binary, and feel pretty vindicated given what the author of our current silipol said in the peanut for my appeal.

[Vekter]

I confirmed that the note has been removed per TBM's post. Going to go ahead and resolve this.