[Archie700] - Gobears - Banned for tiding/overescalation

[Festkongendk]

Ban Details
BYOND account: Gobears
Character name: Paulie Soprano
Ban type: Server
Ban length: 7 Days
Ban reason: In 222466, as a nonantag paramedic, when given paperwork to sign for access, proceeded to continously tide the HoP, even sawing him wordlessly after the initial incident, thermiting his office, and continuing to grief him with a fire extinguisher until he was critted in return. You have been playing here for awhile and due to your hustiry if self-antagging and relapsing into tiding, this ban has been extended to a week. Take time to reconsider your attitude towards others. Was not ingame when this ban was initiated.
Time ban was placed: 2024-01-20 05:19:28
Server you were playing on when banned: Manuel
Round ID in which ban was placed: 222471, although it was for actions in round 222466.

Reasons for Appealing - Delete irrelevant sections

Is the reason/note factually accurate and fair?: Yes/No - **If not relevant, please delete this section**

The ban note is partially accurate but has three inaccuracies, two major and one minor. The minor one is that I did not saw him for refusing me access unless I get the paperwork but rather the roboticist. That doesn't help my case but just thought I'd point that out. The first major one is that it makes it seem like the HoP was not escalating things with me when he was. The HoP attempted to crush me with his shutters while I was non-lethally taunting him. That is what lead me to bash his window with my crowbar and then thermite his office. After I thermited his office, the CMO called me into his office. I arrived there and the HoP showed up and started harm batoning me with his telescopic baton. This is what lead me to "grief" him with a fire extinguisher when I threw it at him threw the hole in his wall and then hit him with it as he was walking to the shuttle. The second major inaccuracy is that I did not stop griefing the HoP until I was critted. I hit the HoP until he was near-crit and then went onto the shuttle. At this point I had stopped attacking him. The CMO then came at me with a saw and started attacking me and got cuffed, then the HoP came in and started attacking me too. This lead me to getting put into crit and the HoP getting cuffed.


Do you disagree with the admin's interpretation of rules or policy?: Yes/No - **If not relevant, please delete this section**
If no, please provide more details: If you don't understand how or why what you did broke any of our rules, please explain here.

I don't even know what proper escalation is anymore. In the round before this I was paramedic and I went out of my way to save an assistant in crit beign dragged by an artificer. I revive him and as I heal him out of crit he gets up and starts taking medical supplies and healing himself. I keep trying to get him back onto the bed but he attacks me and tries to leave with all our shit. He was a non-antag. I know this incident is unrelated but my point is that a lot of times it seems people go completely unpunished for doing things that are far less justified than what I did. The rules as I read them are vague to me. I do not think I had a valid IC reason to saw the HoP 3 times and that is one area where the admin is correct. But after that instance the HoP was lobbying to get me fired which lead me to taunt him (after I risked my life to save like 5 people from the blob including members of security who arrested me earlier.) He tries to shutter me which deals just as much damage as multiple circular saw attacks minus the bleeding, but somehow I get dinged for over-escalating beyond that point. I agree I over-escalated by sawing the HoP, but everything after that was fair game and should've been handled IC. It's so frustrating to me that when I go paramed or a member of security I regularly go out of my way to risk my life for people so they don't sit out the entire round. For example 2 rounds before this I ended up getting dusted because I went through a portal trying to fight the wendigo to recover the miner's body. But the minute I lash out slightly overstep the line the hammer comes down on me. I know I have a long history and the admins have been gracious but sometimes it just seems like the rules are applied inconsistently. I don't think it's because of favoritism or metacliques, I understand how shit can just fall through the cracks or some admins are just inherently more forgiving than others, but it makes me feel shitty when people get away with worse stuff than I did and then I see them next round. I never removed the HoP from the round or even critted them, I'm just saying even though my actions at the beginning were unjustified it's not like it was a round ruining thing or that I consistently griefed him throughout. If he hadnt tried to crush me with the shutters I would've left it at that.

Do you feel the ban length or decision to note was unjustifiably harsh?: Yes/No - **If not relevant, please delete this section**
If no, please provide more details: Explain why to the best of your ability. Do you believe this wasn't even a rule break and you shouldn't have been noted? Do you agree with the decision to note or ban, but feel the duration is too harsh? What do you feel would have been proportionate instead and why?

I do believe it was a rule break but I think a week duration is too long even given my history. I think 24-72 hours would be more appropriate. I say this because I was willing to put my differences with security aside and saved their lives even though they arrested me. If I was a shitter I would not do that. at one point i recovered an egun from one of them as well as a hand tele. If I wanted to be a shitter I could've teleported into the HoP's office and gunned him down. Instead I gave the energy gun to a sec off and even offered up the hand tele which he didnt know I had. I am not a shitter and I try to help most people I come across, but when people are dicks to me or other players it pisses me off and I lose my patience. I will try to do better in the future, thank you.

[Archie700]

First, a note:

I keep trying to get him back onto the bed but he attacks me and tries to leave with all our shit. He was a non-antag. I know this incident is unrelated but my point is that a lot of times it seems people go completely unpunished for doing things that are far less justified than what I did. The rules as I read them are vague to me.

From what I'm checking in tickets, you did not ahelp this at all. There is no way we would even know this incident unless we deliberately witness it for ourselves, and even then, there is no context that we could draw from it until we decide to ask both people. We're not omniscient beings.

I'm going to sum up this entire incident.

Your first interaction with the HoP was when you argued with him about the paperwork on behalf of the scientist and end up trying to break in while sawing his desk and window. This is while the scientist also tried to get in and got disposaled in response.
Fair enough, but then you decided to, completely unprompted, saw the HoP in bar without warning, except for a single attempt to challenge him some time later.
Of course, you ended up being arrested for it and HoP demanded your demotion for that act. There was quite a lot of yelling at each other and other people that was all interrupted when blob came in and resulted in you being released and doing your job. I'm fast forwarding to the next incident.
So you come to HoP to annoy him, and while using the shutter isn't logged and it seems you weren't shuttercrushed, I have no evidence to conclude whether the shutters were used and you were still provoking him beforehand by approaching him and taunting him a while after the earlier incidents.
You then decided to try to break into the HoP office AGAIN and get flashed for your trouble, with no shuttering involved.
Then after this, you thermited his office and he harmbatoned you in response because of course he did, you thermited his office and didn't expect consequences?
Then after that, you decide that for revenge, you're going to bash him to near crit with a fire extinguisher, and are only stopped because you were stunned by him, and then he goes away to heal. By that time both the HoP and the CMO have enough and beat you to crit before they get arrested

The general feeling of this is that you kept pressing the HoP's buttons to get him to respond to you violently.
It was you would decided to be involved in the conflict between the scientist and the HoP by sawing the HoP window.
It was you who attacked the HoP in bar with the saw after issuing a challenge heard by no one.
It was you who decided to fan the flames by taunting the HoP after the whole thing was by the wayside and dealt with, resulting in a possible attempt at a shuttle crush.
It was you who decided to further piss off the HoP by trying to break in again and then thermiting his office, resulting in him charging to CMO to harmbaton you.
And it was you who decided it was a good idea to continue testing him by attacking him with the fire extinguisher to near-crit, resulting in retaliation.

You were definitely self-antagging and you have been warned for this before. Per Rule 4 of Global:

4. Lone antagonists are unbound by (most) rules.
With the exception of metagaming/comms, bug/exploit abuse, erotic/creepy stuff, OOC in IC or IC in OOC, or spawn-camping arrivals, solo antagonists may pursue any goals they wish, in any way they wish. Crewmembers may similarly handle antagonists in any way they wish, but are not allowed to pre-emptively search for, hinder or otherwise seek conflict with antagonists without reasonable cause to do so. Team antagonists can do as they wish as per lone antagonists, but their actions should neither harm their teams efforts, nor intentionally harm it through inaction. Emulating an antagonist by action or outfit puts you at risk of being treated as one.

You were escalating terribly to the point that you were basically treated like an antagonist. And your escalation falls foul of Rule 1 because because not only did you attack the HoP when he didn't respond to you, after the entire situation was dealt with and you were spared because of the blob, you decided to bring it up again to goad him into another fight.

You have had multiple notes of bad escalation, and you relapse to bad escalation. 1-3 days is not enough for this case. I need you to understand why you were banned and to curb your behavior before I can consider the appeal.

[Festkongendk]

From what I'm checking in tickets, you did not ahelp this at all. There is no way we would even know this incident unless we deliberately witness it for ourselves, and even then, there is no context that we could draw from it until we decide to ask both people. We're not omniscient beings.

Hey I've had time to cool off so I'd like to clarify this more. I often feel that when I ahelp for stuff that is ambiguous I get made fun of/ridiculed by the admin for "tattling" instead of just dealing with it IC. For me this has created a chilling effect. Here's an example of this. viewtopic.php?f=54&t=35300

Anyway I know it's not entirely relevant I'm just trying to explain my frustration so I'd like to address the main portion of this appeal.

I agree that I was a shitter for sawing the HoP 3 times for something he was well within his rights to do. I do not believe afterwards that I "over-escalated." Coming back to his door to non-violently taunt him is not escalation in my opinion. His decision to try and shuttercrush me is what lead me to thermiting his office. And I'd like to point out here that thermiting someones office is not as bad as trying to shutter-crush someone. I know you don't have logs of the button that is pressed but I addressed it IC - "You tried to shuttercrush me" or something like that. So I am not making this up. Then after he tries to put me into crit (the only reason he didn't is because the CMO stopped him) I returned the favor. I do not mind that the HoP retaliated against me, either by attacking me with the baton in the CMO's office for thermiting his office or by trying to crit me onto the shuttle. But if I over-escalated for him denying my request, he definitely over-escalated by trying to crush me with the shutters. I guess I can't prove it though so, do what you will.

Anyway I understand I am a problem player and that I overescalate things because of my poor temper and the fact that I feel marginalized. To reiterate I do not think it was acceptable for me to saw the HoP 3 times, but insulting the HoP is not overescalation according to the rules. For that reason I would ask that you reduce the penalty from a week to something you would find appropriate. I do not think a week ban will help me improve but instead is just punitive. I am legitimately trying to improve my behavior but there's something about my temprament that leads me to run afoul of the rules and I am sorry for this.

Also I do not think I will be able to convince you of anything beyond this post so after reading this and making your reply, feel free to close the appeal and make your final ruling.

[Archie700]

You are right that insulting the HoP is not overescalation. However, it is considered a continuation of a previous conflict that had you going to lethals first before hand, were arrested for, and was interrupted by the Blob announcement that had your access returned to you and resulted in your freedom.
I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you were nearly crushed by the shutter, because there is no evidence for either case - I tested it and there's no logging for the button press or the door closing. However, this was due to you trying to continue a conflict that already went to lethals because of your previous overescalation and that you already lost by being arrested for it. Trying to extend a conflict that was previously dealt with earlier is a good way to piss people off.
I'm going to take 2 days off the ban since you acknowledged it, but you have run afoul of the rules too many times because of escalation issues and violently instigating incidents between you and others with poor reasoning. You need to understand that this attitude towards other players is not good and you have to improve.
This is my judgement on the case at hand.

[Festkongendk]

okay appreciate it. i dont have anything else to say, you can move it to resolved unless another admin needs to weigh in.

[Archie700]

Ban reduced to 5 days with the note edited to clarify the situation.

In 222466, as nonantag paramedic, when hearing of HoP giving paperwork for access requests to a scientist, tided the HoP by sawing the window first, then sawed him in bar, resulting in his arrest. After back-and-forth between him and command that was interrupted by blob, came back to taunt HoP and nearly got shuttered, resulting in him thermiting the office. After HoP retaliated by beating him with baton before being stopped, brought the HoP to nearcrit with an extingusher before being critted in return. Ban reduced to 5 days on appeal. Please consider your attitude and history towards others.

[dendydoom]

From what I'm checking in tickets, you did not ahelp this at all. There is no way we would even know this incident unless we deliberately witness it for ourselves, and even then, there is no context that we could draw from it until we decide to ask both people. We're not omniscient beings.

Hey I've had time to cool off so I'd like to clarify this more. I often feel that when I ahelp for stuff that is ambiguous I get made fun of/ridiculed by the admin for "tattling" instead of just dealing with it IC. For me this has created a chilling effect. Here's an example of this. viewtopic.php?f=54&t=35300

for what it's worth this user was a brand new admin candidate at the time and is no longer an admin presently. admins might sometimes take a relaxed/jovial tone with players but are expected to regard the content of ahelps seriously if they're going to respond to them. if the admin isn't taking it seriously for no good reason (banbaiting, they're straight up lying, etc) then something has gone wrong.

[Festkongendk]

yeah im not trying to dog on that guy i was just using him as an example to shoq why i am discpuraged from filing ahelps because sometimes i get made fun of or that i am a tattletale. he wasnt the only one to do that. so i dont know whats acceptable and whats not bc ive seen people who crit me as non antag for no reason show up in the next round unpunished. and when i point that out when i get in trouble the admins will say well you didnt make an ahelp about him and its like my brother in christ i have been belittled for filing ahelps.

but anyway thst discussion would probably be better suited in another thread about server culture and best practices

[Archie700]

If there's no other outstanding issues with the note or ban then this will be considered resolved

[Archie700]

Resolved.