[Tegun] Moocow12 - Bombing Valids

[MooCow12]

BYOND account: Moocow12

Ban/note type (Check what applies): Note

Ban/note length: Until the cows come home
Ban/note reason: In round 224408, as a non-antagonist, tried to use explosives to kill a heretic on emergency shuttle. Due to circumstances outside of their control, ended up detonating the grenades on top of a non-antagonist miner. While the attempt was in good faith and with very small grenades, the player has been told to refrain from using explosives unless there's a round ending threat, and to not use suicide bombs at all.
Time ban was placed: 2/22/2024 (Is the standard for the forums month day year or day month year?)
Server you were playing on when banned: Terry
Round ID in which ban was placed: 224408

Why are you making this appeal?(Check what applies): This round sucked
() - The ban/note is factually incorrect -I wasn't told to never to suicide bomb again
() - The ban/note is not against the rules -I feel everyone in that room was valid, vibing in close proximity to a group of antagonists that has wiped half the station makes you appear evil and even if I saw that shaft miner I would have purposefully killed him, thanks to dynamic and bloodbrothers, determining an antagonist is more or less based on how people act rather than what they have or use.

() - The ban/note needs modification -"the player has been told to refrain from using explosives unless there's a round ending threat" implies the heretic didn't wipe out command and security, or are we arbitrarily locking the classification to a threat that directly ends the round in which case calling shuttle is a round ending threat.

() - The ban/note was unjustifiably harsh It didnt include my epic k/d/a of wiping out the husks and beepsky along with the shaft miner that was apparently "vibing" with them and the heretic.


Why should this appeal be accepted?: I'll just start from the beginning I made a maintenance base with a hidden entrance in dorms showers, fast forward later I try to go back to that base and a heretic (lukas) and several security thralls were there so I start immediately calling them out, it took the crew several minutes of me slipping them and generally on and off fighting for everyone else to arrive, not only were several of the husks sec, the fight ended up briefly relocating to the brig where I think a head of staff was killed, Lukas ended up blade shattering into dorms again where I once again slipped him and punched him to death, soon after as I try to dispose of his body a fucking non antagonist assistant chases me into my own department (I have a fucking damage slowdown) and nearly critted me with body throws and tried to blue space banana peel me in order to not only stop me from disposing of lukas's body but also to get him revived (they said it was based that lukas wiped out security and should be revived)

(edit apparently i only got the damage slowdown after the assistant body throwed me twice)

They successfully got the person who wiped out the command structure of the station and was seemingly near ascension revived and this was the point where i escalated into using POT WATER grenades instead of silly slips

Fast forward to shuttle, I see lukas and several husks killing someone I had just fucking revived and seeing as they are in control of a small room on the shuttle me and a mech decide to go ham and wipe the room out.

I run in, the mech jumps ontop of me and knocks me into a shaft miner who was apparently in the same room vibing with the heretic and thralls so he ends up getting the most of the explosions and the shaft miner ahelps.


I have massive issues with this, the stations security force AND command structure are both crippled or worse converted, the only ones capable of directly fighting the heretic and his thralls in normal combat were the shaft miners who instead chose to "vibe" they were the only ones left with combat gear and armor and chose to not use it and instead sit next to a group of antagonists who are actively killing people despite having the means to end it there.

So not only did they forcefully escalate both me and the mech to escalate with explosive force, they stayed in close proximity to the bad guys killing everyone and ahelped when they get hit by the aoes that they forced to come out? Isn't that kill baiting? Even if I knew there was a non antagonist miner in that room I probably would have purposefully killed them for acting like an antag to begin with, after that shit with the assistant I was fucking done with self antags at this point.

[Vekter]

I feel everyone in that room was valid, vibing in close proximity to a group of antagonists that has wiped half the station makes you appear evil and even if I saw that shaft miner I would have purposefully killed him,

This is not how validity works; people are not just magically valid because they are standing near a threat and not actively attacking it.

[MooCow12]

So you can stand near an antagonist and not harm them then ahelp when that antagonist gets bombed despite knowingly having the best equipment to fight them and refusing to use that equipment? So in general youre only impact on the round is to give an antagonist meta protection against anything that isnt single target.

Maybe I should start standing between antagonists and security using lasers and see how that ends up. Actually I could totally do that after gathering burn resistance.

[Vekter]

So you can stand near an antagonist and not harm them then ahelp when that antagonist gets bombed despite knowingly having the best equipment to fight them and refusing to use that equipment? So in general youre only impact on the round is to give an antagonist meta protection against anything that isnt single target.

Maybe I should start standing between antagonists and security using lasers and see how that ends up. Actually I could totally do that after gathering burn resistance.

Yes, because the point of the game is not to kill antagonists, it's to roleplay.

[MooCow12]

Yes, because the point of the game is not to kill antagonists, it's to roleplay.

And the crew got to roleplay that they were in a station where a very bad man wiped out security and was close to obtaining power that would have killed everyone else. Just like I roleplayed that the person I was hunting fucked me over twice, basing infront of my maint base, and killing the person I just revived. And the shaft miner got to roleplay being one of the heretic's minions and put everyone else in a much worse situation? Just like the assistant who roleplayed as a pos and also put everyone in a much worse situation.


I know im using alot of valid/antagonist words but that wasnt the mindset behind me bombing or fighting to begin with, Im using those words because these are the forums and im taking what happened in game and trying to explain it at that level because its the easiest to break down the entire situation at.

[Timberpoes]

I think what Vekter is trying to say is that players are often held responsible for the collateral damage they cause when fighting antags.

Although an antag is OOCly valid, it's always your responsibility and nobody else's but yours in order to make sure any explosives you use against them causes no collateral deaths.

It's usually a sliding scale where disproportionate use of explosives with no collateral can still find a player getting a talking to and a note, as well as proportionate use of explosives that cause a little collateral when the admin feels it's worth recording. Although killing antags is a thing you can do, it's not such an overriding objective that all the other server rules get suspended to allow players to do it - although allowances are made within reason. Sometimes this can result in a collateral kill dayban turning into a simple warning note or verbal warning instead.

[MooCow12]

Although an antag is OOCly valid

I know you dont mean it like this but I want to hammer this nail down, no antagonist was attacked based on their ooc validity throughout this round, it was all ic actions and natural escalation. The mere existence of a heretic husk not only implies but proves foul play has happened.

[Timberpoes]

Oh yeah, vibes.

I was trying to say that that although the OOC rules; be it escalation; act like an antag + get treated like one; or actually being an antag all permit players to kill other players when the appropriate IC circumstances present, there's still limits to that IC freedom and I think that's what Vekter was trying to refer to when referencing the point of the game being to roleplay over kill valids. That IC reality of still being responsible for your actions.

[Tegun]

Greetings and salutations

I wasn't told to never to suicide bomb again

Alright, this part is easy to correct. Do not use suicide bombs as a non-antagonist.

I feel everyone in that room was valid, vibing in close proximity to a group of antagonists that has wiped half the station makes you appear evil and even if I saw that shaft miner I would have purposefully killed him, thanks to dynamic and bloodbrothers, determining an antagonist is more or less based on how people act rather than what they have or use.

Being near someone is not in itself acting like an antagonist. If they were defending the heretic somehow, that'd be an issue. So it's still a non-antagonist who died because of you.

"the player has been told to refrain from using explosives unless there's a round ending threat" implies the heretic didn't wipe out command and security, or are we arbitrarily locking the classification to a threat that directly ends the round in which case calling shuttle is a round ending threat.

After a consultation from other admins, yeah, I just have a stick up my ass when it comes to explosives and this part could use a change.

It didnt include my epic k/d/a of wiping out the husks along with the shaft miner that was apparently "vibing" with them and the heretic.

As much as I'd like to add that kind of knowledge, I do not want to set a precedent of doing memes like that in notes based on appeals.

Why should this appeal be accepted?:I have massive issues with this, the stations security force AND command structure are both crippled or worse converted, the only ones capable of directly fighting the heretic and his thralls in normal combat were the shaft miners who instead chose to "vibe" they were the only ones left with combat gear and armor and chose to not use it and instead sit next to a group of antagonists who are actively killing people despite having the means to end it there.

So not only did they forcefully escalate both me and the mech to escalate with explosive force, they stayed in close proximity to the bad guys killing everyone and ahelped when they get hit by the aoes that they forced to come out? Isn't that kill baiting? Even if I knew there was a non antagonist miner in that room I probably would have purposefully killed them for acting like an antag to begin with, after that shit with the assistant I was fucking done with self antags at this point.

Well, this does give context to what was going on in your head during the round but doesn't really factor into the appeal. If people are being dicks to you that doesn't give you the right to be dick to other people, and the miner does not become an antagonist by being in the same room as a heretic. Plenty of weaponry which does not cause collateral damage can be used to kill a heretic and their husks.

So all in all, the points which should be in the note in my opinion:

• A non-antagonist died due to your grenades
• You've been told to be responsible with grenades
• You've been told to not use suicide bombs as a non-antagonist

How about "In round 224408, caused the death of a crew member while trying to kill a heretic by using grenades. Reminded to be wary of collateral damage when using grenades and told to not use suicide bombs while not an antagonist."? Makes it a bit briefer too. Keeping the round info because the note was actually placed in a later round.

[MooCow12]

Could you include the part where I was aware the room was about to be full of collateral damage anyway and that it doesn't give me an excuse to add to it. (The mech jumping in with a big indicator and exploding everything with missiles)

I remember the word I was trying to use in the ahelp, I was trying to add damage to where the mech was TELEGRAPHING its attack

[Tegun]

The ironical part is that now it's starting to sound like my own only bad note.
"In round 224408, caused the death of a crew member while trying to kill a heretic by using grenades. There were other sources of collateral damage as well but that does not justify worsening the situation. Reminded to be wary of collateral damage when using grenades and told to not use suicide bombs while not an antagonist."? Gives more context to why it's a note rather than a ban, but from admin point of view the important things is that we've had a talk about collateral damage and suicide bombs.

[MooCow12]

Thats fine although it should probably specify collateral kills rather than "damage" since you can make suicide bombs that reverse structural damage and breaches to the station/shuttle on their own, saying collatoral damage implies purely things like spacing a room and causing death via atmos when we all know shuttle atmos is a laggy pos that doesnt update gas being sucked out of it fast enough for anyone to take any damage to begin with.



But thats just a tiny nitpick with the wording.

[Tegun]

Right, I'll update the note and send this thread to the resolved pile tomorrow.