[Higgin] Imitates-The-Lizards - Self-antag ban note change request

[Imitates-The-Lizards]

BYOND account: Typhnox

Ban/note type (Check what applies):
(X) - Server Ban
() - Note
() - Forum Ban
() - Discord Ban

Ban/note length: 1 day
Ban/note reason: [MRP] As a non-antag assistant, gathered sunglasses, an armor vest, and two inducers to make a crossbow to hold up other crew for their money. Shot one, and when stopped after holding up a 2nd, threatened the officer arresting them IC with getting killed for not following arrest procedure. The arrest was valid. After being released, immediately made a second crossbow. You shot somebody and were fully-armed. You do not get to escalate off of valid arrests, and this represents overescalation in the course of self-antagonism, even if you didn't mean to have shot them. Please do not do this again.
Time ban was placed: 2024-3-22 9:12:57
Server you were playing on when banned: Manuel
Round ID in which ban was placed: 225912

Why are you making this appeal?(Check what applies):
() - The ban/note is factually incorrect
() - The ban/note is not against the rules
(X) - The ban/note needs modification
() - The ban was unjustifiably harsh
() - I was permabanned and I want another chance

Why should this appeal be accepted?: The ban is valid for the reasoning of self-antagging beyond the acceptable scope (ie, tiding is an acceptable level of self-antagging, shooting someone's arm off is not.) as determined by the admin, however, there are additional details in the ban which I wholly disagree with, and am requesting to be removed or modified, namely the portions regarding over-escalation. During the shift, Gwa-Gwa, the Security Officer, asked me about sticking people up, which I admitted to, and they batoned me. Looking back, I agree that the arrest was performed validly, although I still would have preferred that they asked for my compliance. Regardless, while in cuffs and being dragged to the brig, I told them that they shouldn't cry if they get killed over the way in which they perform arrests in the future, which is the central point of this "overescalation" portion that Higgin has thrown in, saying that they believe this was me escalating over the arrest and threatening to kill them. However, as I stated in the ticket, this was not the case - when I made that statement, I was telling Gwa-Gwa that other people would probably kill them in the future if they continued to conduct their arrests in the manner they did, I was not personally threatening them. I did not resist the arrest, and I had exactly zero plans to attack Gwa-Gwa in the future, I simply made a second crossbow in order to continue holding up members of the crew, so I believe it is unreasonable to include this portion of the ban, since I took exactly zero hostile actions against Gwa-Gwa beyond arrest banter, and the central statement in question is being interpreted in a way that is not consistent with my intent when making it, and it will cause admins in the future to view this incident with more negativity than is warranted.

[2024-03-22 08:43:23.230] GAME-SAY: Epicfailguy108/(Gwa-Gwa) (mob_3251) "hey" (Library (170,133,4))
[2024-03-22 08:43:38.569] GAME-SAY: Epicfailguy108/(Gwa-Gwa) (mob_3251) "did you shoot someone's arm off with a crossbow?" (Starboard Primary Hallway (161,130,4))
[2024-03-22 08:43:46.856] GAME-SAY: Typhnox/(Imitates-The-Lizards) (mob_3206) "Well to be fair, he owed me money." (Starboard Primary Hallway (159,129,4))
[2024-03-22 08:43:49.890] ATTACK: Epicfailguy108/(Gwa-Gwa) (mob_3251) stun attacked Typhnox/(Imitates-The-Lizards) with the stun baton (NEWHP: 90.5) (Starboard Primary Hallway (160,130,4))
[2024-03-22 08:43:53.256] ATTACK: Epicfailguy108/(Gwa-Gwa) (mob_3251) stun attacked Typhnox/(Imitates-The-Lizards) with the stun baton (NEWHP: 90.5) (Starboard Primary Hallway (153,129,4))
[2024-03-22 08:43:58.589] ATTACK: Epicfailguy108/(Gwa-Gwa) (mob_3251) handcuffed Typhnox/(Imitates-The-Lizards) (NEWHP: 90.5) (Starboard Primary Hallway (151,129,4))
[2024-03-22 08:44:16.278] GAME-SAY: Epicfailguy108/(Gwa-Gwa) (mob_3251) "damn" (Starboard Primary Hallway (154,130,4))
[2024-03-22 08:44:19.672] GAME-SAY: Epicfailguy108/(Gwa-Gwa) (mob_3251) "that's a lot of ammo" (Starboard Primary Hallway (154,130,4))
2024-03-22 08:44:23.045] GAME-SAY: Typhnox/(Imitates-The-Lizards) (mob_3206) "You're supposed to ask for my compliance, you know." (Starboard Primary Hallway (155,130,4))
[2024-03-22 08:44:23.832] GAME-SAY: Epicfailguy108/(Gwa-Gwa) (mob_3251) "what were you planning to do?" (Starboard Primary Hallway (154,130,4))
[2024-03-22 08:44:32.950] GAME-SAY: Typhnox/(Imitates-The-Lizards) (mob_3206) "I know space law isnt your strong suit, but still." (Starboard Primary Hallway (155,130,4))
[2024-03-22 08:45:00.715] GAME-SAY: Epicfailguy108/(Gwa-Gwa) (mob_3251) "you robbed someone and horribly mutilated someone" (Starboard Primary Hallway (155,130,4))
[2024-03-22 08:45:04.581] GAME-SAY: Epicfailguy108/(Gwa-Gwa) (mob_3251) "im not searching you im arresting you" (Starboard Primary Hallway (155,130,4))
[2024-03-22 08:45:28.016] GAME-SAY: Typhnox/(Imitates-The-Lizards) (mob_3206) "Youre supposed to tell me what crime im accused of, and then inform me youre arresting me, not just pull out baton and bonk me. Go read space law you idiot." (Library (172,134,4))

Line in question:
[2024-03-22 08:45:49.520] GAME-SAY: Typhnox/(Imitates-The-Lizards) (mob_3206) "Whatever, if you get killed, dont cry about it." (Central Primary Hallway (128,139,4))


[2024-03-22 08:45:37.899] GAME-SAY: Epicfailguy108/(Gwa-Gwa) (mob_3251) "no" (Starboard Primary Hallway (159,130,4))
[2024-03-22 08:46:00.083] GAME-SAY: Typhnox/(Imitates-The-Lizards) (mob_3206) "Since youre literally a crooked cop." (Brig Overlook (112,173,4))
[2024-03-22 08:46:02.137] GAME-SAY: Epicfailguy108/(Gwa-Gwa) (mob_3251) "i can cry if i want to" (Brig Overlook (112,174,4))
[2024-03-22 08:46:18.201] GAME-SAY: Epicfailguy108/(Gwa-Gwa) (mob_3251) "ecause i am a sensitive man[" (Brig (101,173,3))
[2024-03-22 08:46:36.428] GAME-SAY: Typhnox/(Imitates-The-Lizards) (mob_3206) "Not sensitive to books apparently, since you cant even read space law, despite being a secoff." (Brig (98,173,3))
[2024-03-22 08:46:49.445] GAME-SAY: Epicfailguy108/(Gwa-Gwa) (mob_3251) "i know enough about it" (Brig (101,173,3))

That's it. That was my "banworthy escalation". After this, Gwa-Gwa just gave me a 3 minute sentence despite the fact I shot someone's arm off, so I had no plans to attack him considering his leniency. He didn't even take my stolen armor vest or shades. While I do agree that the way Higgin interpreted my statement is reasonable, I think that my own testimony regarding what my intent was should be taken into consideration, especially in light of the fact that, again, I took exactly zero hostile actions against Gwa-Gwa beyond being spiteful against them for reasons that we went over in the ticket. Did not harm even the tiniest scale on their tail.

I am requesting the ban note be edited to something like: [MRP] As a non-antag assistant, gathered sunglasses, an armor vest, and two inducers to make a crossbow to hold up other crew for their money. Shot one and blew their arm off, and held up a 2nd crew member before being arrested. After being released, immediately made a second crossbow. While some level of self-antagonism is allowed (such as tiding), this is beyond the scope we find acceptable. Please do not do this again.

[Higgin]

Hey - I'd be happy to clarify it and I'm glad you made this.

The overescalation part of the note is in reference to the fact that you went around holding people up with a crossbow and shot a doctor's arm off. If things had gone south with the curator, much the same was possible. The overescalation issue is in that blowing folks' limbs off with poor IC reasoning as a non-antag, you're violating basic escalation policy - losing limbs significantly interferes in folks' ability to play and do their jobs, even if the amounts you were extorting them for were nominal. Starting off at that level of force also puts you in the ballpark of bringing lethal force to a conflict you started as a non-antagonist - which violates MRP's modified escalation policy.

You didn't make a single attack against Gwa-Gwa, but I can see how that might not show through in the note. I didn't make good use of the limited space to clarify that at the time. I'm happy to modify it to reflect that you did not actually attack Gwa-Gwa; that the overescalation was against the crew in connection with the self-antagonism; but given that we had to set the matter of arrest procedure straight in the ticket, I'm inclined to keep it there. You said at the time you understood as much as how what you said could be understood as a threat.

I'm not going to include commentary on tiding in the note. The applicable rules are here:

Breaking into staffed departments to take resources, or hoarding station supplies with little IC reasoning can be harmful to the experience of other players. Communicate first if you desire something that you do not have access to. Players may defend their workplaces from trespassers who damage or steal property with relaxed escalation.

(emphasis mine)

Unjustified grief/tiding, minor or otherwise, or unprovoked grief targeted towards players who wronged you in previous rounds ('metagrudging') can be followed up with notes, or bans.

You may begin IC conflicts with another player if it does not excessively interfere with their ability to do their job. While you are allowed to escalate conflicts, if it leads to violence and you have poor IC reasoning for inciting it, you may face administrative action.
...

Modified standard escalation applies to instances of player conflict. Players may escalate as per standard escalation policy on MRP where they have legitimate in character reason to do so. Players acting without legitimate IC reasoning (for example: randomly or unnecessarily attempting to steal items from departments or other people) void the right to escalate to lethal self-defence if it is employed reasonably by the wronged party.

Security acting within the constraints of space law are afforded a level of OOC protection against retaliation/escalation compared to regular crewmembers.

1. Inform the criminal that they are wanted, and why they are wanted. This is void if they are visibly armed, or in in the process of committing a crime, including trespassing in a high security area.

Before we get down into the full ticket logs, I'd like to propose the following adjustment instead:

[MRP] As a non-antag assistant, gathered sunglasses, an armor vest, and two inducers to make a crossbow to hold up other crew for their money. Shot one, and when stopped after holding up a 2nd, threatened the officer arresting them IC with getting killed for not following arrest procedure. The arrest was valid. After being released, immediately made a second crossbow. You shot somebody and were fully-armed. You do not get to escalate off of valid arrests, and this represents overescalation in the course of self-antagonism, even if you didn't mean to have shot them. Please do not do this again.

to

[MRP] Self-antagging and overescalation. As a non-antag assistant, gathered sunglasses, an armor vest, and two inducers to make crossbows to hold up other crew for their money. Shot one crewmember's arm off in a stickup, then held up another. When stopped by security, admitted to the shooting and was arrested without resistance. While arrested, threatened the security officer who arrested them with vague lethal consequences for violating arrest procedure. Made another crossbow immediately upon release. The arrest was valid. Please remember that the rules come before Space Law and SOP.

How's that sound to you?

[Imitates-The-Lizards]

Adjusted note is much more acceptable to me, as it much more accurately reflects the situation. I'm perfectly happy with that adjustment.

[Higgin]

Adjusted note is much more acceptable to me, as it much more accurately reflects the situation. I'm perfectly happy with that adjustment.

done and dusted

[Imitates-The-Lizards]

Adjusted note is much more acceptable to me, as it much more accurately reflects the situation. I'm perfectly happy with that adjustment.

done and dusted

Cheers, thanks, feel free to lock and move thread to handled appeals whenever.

[Higgin]

Adjusted note is much more acceptable to me, as it much more accurately reflects the situation. I'm perfectly happy with that adjustment.

done and dusted

Cheers, thanks, feel free to lock and move thread to handled appeals whenever.

Thanks for the quick turnaround on the response and clarifications here. I'll leave it for 24 hours and then move it over if nothing else.