[Maxipat] SNTCrusher - Server ban

[SNTCrusher]

BYOND account:[SNTCrusher]

Ban/note type:[Server Ban]

Ban/note length:[3 days]
Ban/note reason:[IN ROUND 225828 - As a non-antag miner, acquired a lot of syndicate loot (esword, spacesuit), resulting in security 1-person manhunt after the player. It culminated in escape shuttle, where sec opened lethal fire to arrest the player (they were hulk). Player retaliated against sec, killing the officer and one other player that tried helping the secoff after noticing a person in syndie gear killing them. You can't lethally retaliate against arrest, ban escalated from 2 (1 per kill) to 3 days due to history. Player was absent when ban was placed, if you feel i missed something appeal at forums.]
Time ban was placed:[2024-01-23 22:07:18]
Server you were playing on when banned:[Terry]
Round ID in which ban was placed:[225831]
Why are you making this appeal?:[The ban/note is factually incorrect;The ban/note needs modification]


[I want to understand how I should have acted in this situation. Round recap:Megafauna>Looted Syndicate items from valids>Saved secoof by killing Maint Clown>Other secoff spotted me with gear and without asking anything declared me traitor>killed 3 Broodmothers and multiple other spider types, saved few crewmembers>Shuttle arrived, I came there and no one attacked me, one secoff that had demonstratively shown eweryone Miniature E-Crossow said that I'm good>Other officer charges at me dualwielding lasers and attempts to kill me>I killed attacking officer and other officer that tried killing me and had E-Bow.
Before attack on me I newer been hostile for officer to assume that I'm a threat and nobody ever told me about arrest or asked about loot so by IC: 2 people, armed with contraband and lasers tried killing me.
Due to Space Law:
Contraband is a felony (Crimes that can result in 8 minutes, or 500-800 points in the labor camp.)
Standard Operational Procedures for arrests are as follows:
1.Inform the criminal that they are wanted, and why they are wanted. This is void if they are visibly armed, or in in the process of committing a crime, including trespassing in a high security area.
2.If compliant, cuff and transport the prisoner to the brig immediately and without harming them, and proceed to brigging procedures. You may utilize departmental security outposts to search compliant suspects or prisoners.
3.If resistant to arrest, use your nonlethal weaponry until such a situation may prompt use of lethal force, detailed below. If successful, transport the prisoner immediately to the brig and begin brigging procedure.

There are a few circumstances where deadly force is permissible:
Non-Lethal Weapons Ineffective - certain targets are impervious to NLWs, such as Mechs, Xenomorphs, Borgs, and Hulks. Lethal force may be used against these targets if they prove hostile.

Overally how shoud I have acted? I'm a hulk and cant use NLW, I shoud have just let that guy kill me without reason? It's Me or Them situation and I was only mirroring their actions.]

[Maxipat]

Yeah, i'll be glad to clarify! Let's break it down.

1. It's less of a space law thing and more of what rule 4 allows you to do. Basically by wearing and using syndicate items, you open yourself to be treated like an antagonist, no matter if you are one. It doesn't happen often, but you opened yourself to be "valided"/arrested by wearing them, and from the security officer's testimony they tried to arrest you way before the shuttle arrived. And thats how we get to the 2nd point.
2. You were a hulk, meaning the security officer had no other way to apprehend you other than shooting you with lethals, you can't be stunned and pose an active threat, especially when combo'd with esword. It basically made your situation worse.
3. Even assuming you aren't going to be killed for owning traitor items, you still can't (unless you'd be an antagonist) retaliate lethally to valid arrest (which was impossible to do non-lethally bcs of hulk).
4.

There are a few circumstances where deadly force is permissible:
Non-Lethal Weapons Ineffective - certain targets are impervious to NLWs, such as Mechs, Xenomorphs, Borgs, and Hulks. Lethal force may be used against these targets if they prove hostile.

While i agree that's what space law says, it's not a rule and only serves as evidence of good-faith play from those applying it.

5. If you want, i can change the wording of the note to better explain what went wrong, basically you can't LETHALLY retaliate against sec commiting a valid arrest (possesion of contraband as you said) ESPECIALLY when you made yourself impossible to arrest without lethals.

IN ROUND 225828 - As a non-antag miner, acquired a lot of syndicate loot (esword, spacesuit), resulting in security 1-person manhunt after the player. It culminated in escape shuttle, where sec opened lethal fire to arrest the player (they were hulk). Player retaliated against sec, killing the officer and one other player that tried helping the secoff after noticing a person in syndie gear killing them. You can't lethally retaliate against arrest, ban escalated from 2 (1 per kill) to 3 days due to history. Player was absent when ban was placed, if you feel i missed something appeal at forums.

i'd replace to

IN ROUND 225828 - As a non-antag miner, acquired a lot of syndicate loot (esword, spacesuit), resulting in security 1-person manhunt after the player. It culminated in escape shuttle, where sec opened lethal fire to arrest the player (they were hulk). Player retaliated against sec, killing the officer and one other player that tried helping the secoff after noticing a person in syndie gear killing them. You can't lethally retaliate against valid arrest, even if security uses lethals when you've made yourself unarrestable with non-lethal means, ban escalated from 2 (1 per kill) to 3 days due to history. Note ammended on appeal.

6. Of course i'm open to discuss it more if you still have any doubts or think that the note can still be improved.

[SNTCrusher]

Main reason behind that appeal is that I dont know how to act: It's literally Die or Get Banned situation.

[Maxipat]

You could've tried talking with them, peacefully surrender and make it clear youre surrendering or just get killed, its the risk you take when injecting yourself with hulk mutation.

[SNTCrusher]

Additionally one of te officers I killed had E-Bow and was using it, so he was valid?
God point to talk when guy unloads dualwielded lasers point blank at you.

[SNTCrusher]

Why shoud I talk when he never said a word to me, I had no clue why he was attacking me, and only arrest attempt I saw its when i was shot 3 times with disabler during my fight with Maint Clown.

[Maxipat]

Additionally one of te officers I killed had E-Bow and was using it, so he was valid?

Yep, pretty much secofficers that are using tot gear are valid, but good luck in attacking them without making entire sec department go after you.

Why shoud I talk when he never said a word to me, I had no clue why he was attacking me, and only arrest attempt I saw its when i was shot 3 times with disabler during my fight with Maint Clown.

Because he didn't have to talk with you to arrest you in that place, he either had rule 4 protecting him (you having visible tot gear on you making you rule 4 valid + you being stun-immune), or with space law, you were on the spot commiting a crime of possession of contraband, making him not need to state reason of arrest.

[SNTCrusher]

Why security is completly protected up to the fact that you will get banned for attacking them? I killed him in self defense because I didnt know about arrest at all.
If you help valid you can be threated as valid isnt it like that? Why cant I kill a officer assisting valid then? And then one guy I killed was valid and additional day of ban is unjustified.
The only person on the station that was against Me is that single secoff that just wanted to kill me, rest of the crew was in good relations with me and even ignored me killing 2 officers with esword.

[Maxipat]

Why security is completly protected up to the fact that you will get banned for attacking them? I killed him in self defense because I didnt know about arrest at all.

I don't know, i don't make the policy. If that's what we would allow as self-defence, that'd make hulk instant grief pass, because there's no other way to apprehend you than killing you, so you could just kill everyone trying to stop you in "self-defence".

If you help valid you can be threated as valid isnt it like that? Why cant I kill a officer assisting valid then? And then one guy I killed was valid and additional day of ban is unjustified.

This doesn't work the other way around, the security officer that shot you wasn't valid, a valid person helped them true, but that wouldn't my mind on your ban time from 3 days, it's usually considered as next time tier after 1 day and your note history is bad, to say the least.

The only person on the station that was against Me is that single secoff that just wanted to kill me, rest of the crew was in good relations with me and even ignored me killing 2 officers with esword.

You don't know if he wanted to kill you, he had no other option to apprehend you because of hulk mutation, as i said before you made your situation worse the moment you decided to add hulk on top of all your gear. The rest of the crew doesn't matter, i won't and can't expect everyone to start fighting a miner with enough powergame stuff to survive an admin nuke

[SNTCrusher]

How do I know that he doesn't want to kill me, as I said, he didn't talk to me at all and I assumed him valid for attempted murder. Why should i let anybody with sec ID allow to kill me, I dont have a single way to confirm his status, especially with his hostile actions.
Another problem is how different admins threat situations, because before I was banned for excessive validhunting after killing actual antag openly wearing syndicate loot, while you saying that I'm allowed to kill a secoff with gear.

[SNTCrusher]

And you didnt answered the question: If I will attack valid secoff and others secoffs will try to help him can i threat them all as valids? They assisting the valid, isn't they?

[Maxipat]

I'll open with a question, what is your goal in this appeal again? I think it got lost somewhere in the middle of it.

How do I know that he doesn't want to kill me, as I said, he didn't talk to me at all and I assumed him valid for attempted murder. Why should i let anybody with sec ID allow to kill me, I dont have a single way to confirm his status, especially with his hostile actions.

Again, you were a hulk, all other ways of apprehension were impossible because of your gear, also didn't you have memento mori too? Next time when officer tries to stun you will you also kill them because "that might be a decoy sec antag officer and not a real one"?

Another problem is how different admins threat situations, because before I was banned for excessive validhunting after killing actual antag openly wearing syndicate loot, while you saying that I'm allowed to kill a secoff with gear.

You were banned for excessive validhunting, going around station worldlessly, with hulk and mining gear looking for antags, not for killing one person that had tot gear. Here you got banned for invalid escalation against sec officer trying to arrest you, after you made it impossible for him non-lethally detain you, while also being rule 4 valid. If you go around ONLY looking for sec officers that have any resemblance of antag gear on them just to kill them, i'll ban you for excessive validhunting again, it's not your job as a miner to spend entire round gearing up and ruining antag's life while you're impossible to kill, if you want to spend entire round hunting valids play sec.

[Maxipat]

And you didnt answered the question: If I will attack valid secoff and others secoffs will try to help him can i threat them all as valids? They assisting the valid, isn't they?

About this, honestly i have no clue how i'd rule this and would probably ask other admins what do they think to reach a consensus. It's a line between actual self-defence and you trying to maximize kills. I don't think there's one single policy about this so i'd suggest you open a policy discussion thread for it.

[SNTCrusher]

Goal of this appea is to understand how shoud I act in future, you are telling me that I shoud let them kill me or be banned, I'm seeking for third option.
Fact that I had mori on me made situation even worse, because that means I'm not only gonna be killed, but RR'd. I never use lethals against stuns, my actions is just mirroring.
And now you saying that I will get banned for killing people with antag gear, even thou they are valids? Half of the round I'm killing megafauna, other half-valids, what else can you do as miner.

[Maxipat]

You could've tried talking with them, peacefully surrender and make it clear youre surrendering or just get killed, its the risk you take when injecting yourself with hulk mutation.

I've already gave you a 3rd option out, which you adamantly believe is not an option without even trying. Either way, i can offer you to ammend the note to what i proposed earlier, otherwise the appeal is denied. You're free to ask for headmin review.

[SNTCrusher]

No need to change anything in the note.
After reaching consensus in killing valid secoff and others who will try helping him, inform me about it.
Additionally I want explanation on third variant "spek it out" and how exactly I had to do it while bodyblocked in corner and being lasered down, when even after killing the threat I survived on 10 hp.

[Maxipat]

After reaching consensus in killing valid secoff and others who will try helping him, inform me about it.

This is not even relevant to this situation, you started attacking an officer and then his secoff friend (that had an ebow) tried helping him when you retaliated with esword. As i said, you can get the note ammended or ask the headmins for review. Otherwise its denied.

[SNTCrusher]

Why are you refusing to answer a question thats relevant to current appeal goal: gathering information about interacting with security metaprotection for future cases.
Additionally you still didnt described how shoud I properly escalate in situations like that and how your third variant shoud look like.

[Maxipat]

Why are you refusing to answer a question thats relevant to current appeal goal: gathering information about interacting with security metaprotection for future cases.

I'm not refusing to answer, you just refuse (?) to acknowledge it, because you think my answer is illogical from your standpoint. When dealing with metaprotected entity like security or captain, you can't retaliate not-lethally, even if they shoot you, as long as what they're doing does not void their protections. You, by using hulk mutator, removed all other options to apprehend you/arrest you except for lethal means, this does not let you escalate any differently, it was your choice to use the hulk mutator and your conscious choice to take this handicap. The security officer that was trying to kill you / apprehend you was not valid, he had no contraband on him and he tried to arrest you earlier in the round for having antag gear.

Additionally you still didnt described how shoud I properly escalate in situations like that and how your third variant shoud look like.

Because there's no proper escalation against metaprotected entity, they're metaprotected afterall. Your valid options were:
1. Trying to talk (even though your logs show not even a single word spoken or emoted for entire 2h round),
2. trying to run away (you had your blue/red cubes from mining loot, you even managed to disengage with them for long enough to heal before killing the two secoffs),
3. Surrender, which ties itself to talking.
4. Let them kill you, you were valid by rules and no other way of stopping you existed because of hulk mutator. You've created this situation, not the secoff.

Also,

(...)
And now you saying that I will get banned for killing people with antag gear, even thou they are valids? Half of the round I'm killing megafauna, other half-valids, what else can you do as miner.

It may be a surprise to you, but miner's job is mining, not validhunting without a single word said for 2h round.

[Maxipat]

Why are you refusing to answer a question thats relevant to current appeal goal: gathering information about interacting with security metaprotection for future cases.
(...)

Also, if you're specifically talking about a situation where you kill a valid secoff and other secoffs come in their help, that's not a question for appeal subforum as it has nothing to do with the appealed note. As i said earlier, make a policy thread about it if you want it cleared up. Until policy is set, it's up to the admin in your ticket.

[SNTCrusher]

Question I asked is simple: can I kill other secoffs whitch helping/protecting the valid officer wearing Syndicate gear?
The answer to this question will be the end of our conversation.

[Maxipat]

Question I asked is simple: can I kill other secoffs whitch helping/protecting the valid officer wearing Syndicate gear?
The answer to this question will be the end of our conversation.

The answer to this question has nothing to do with the situation you got banned for. It was a valid officer coming to help of a normal officer, not the other way around. As far as i know, its up to the admin that would take the eventual ticket, as there's no one clear policy to this exact situation. If you want one to exist, make a policy thread.

[SNTCrusher]

Acknowledged.
Current conversation is finished.

[Maxipat]

Great, i'll close and move this thread in 24h in case you change your mind until then.

[Maxipat]

It's been 24h, closing~.