[Dunham] Bisar - High Severity note is wrong

[Bisar]

Post Content:
When and where this incident occured: Manuel, 5/26/24
Byond account and character name OR Discord name: Bisar, Ted 'GreyTide Ted' Metek
Admin: Dunham
ROUND ID HERE IF APPLICABLE: 229466, subsequent pre-round (no ID available)
Detailed summary:


I'd like to apologize for getting so irate, both in the admin-help exchange of the previous round and the subsequent OOC conversation. I'm working on that, though to be frank, I sometimes feel my willingness to acknowledge my mistakes invites further ridicule and scrutiny. That's beside point of this complaint.

As Warden, one of my prisoners Lyndsey Buzzard (Newyearnewme) slashed herself up with a shard of glass, then (from checking the logs) drew all her blood out with a syringe and splashed it all over the floor.

<THESE LOGS WERE NOT IMMEDIATELY AFTER EACH OTHER, THERE WERE MANY ACTIONS TAKING PLACE AT THE TIME ALL THROUGHOUT THE ROUND>

[2024-05-26 06:55:13.113] ATTACK: Newyearnewme/(Lyndsey Buzzard) (mob_3316) attacked Newyearnewme/(Lyndsey Buzzard) with shard (COMBAT MODE: 1) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 87.3) (Prison Rec Room (100,184,2))
[2024-05-26 06:55:14.302] ATTACK: Newyearnewme/(Lyndsey Buzzard) (mob_3316) attacked Newyearnewme/(Lyndsey Buzzard) with shard (COMBAT MODE: 1) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 83.5) (Prison Rec Room (100,184,2))
[2024-05-26 06:55:15.464] ATTACK: Newyearnewme/(Lyndsey Buzzard) (mob_3316) attacked Newyearnewme/(Lyndsey Buzzard) with shard (COMBAT MODE: 1) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 79.8) (Prison Rec Room (100,184,2))
[2024-05-26 06:55:16.725] ATTACK: Newyearnewme/(Lyndsey Buzzard) (mob_3316) attacked Newyearnewme/(Lyndsey Buzzard) with shard (COMBAT MODE: 1) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 76) (Prison Rec Room (100,184,2))
[2024-05-26 06:55:18.105] ATTACK: Newyearnewme/(Lyndsey Buzzard) (mob_3316) attacked Newyearnewme/(Lyndsey Buzzard) with shard (COMBAT MODE: 1) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 72.3) (Prison Rec Room (100,184,2))
[2024-05-26 06:55:19.470] ATTACK: Newyearnewme/(Lyndsey Buzzard) (mob_3316) attacked Newyearnewme/(Lyndsey Buzzard) with shard (COMBAT MODE: 1) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 68.5) (Prison Rec Room (100,184,2))
[2024-05-26 06:55:20.671] ATTACK: Newyearnewme/(Lyndsey Buzzard) (mob_3316) attacked Newyearnewme/(Lyndsey Buzzard) with shard (COMBAT MODE: 1) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 64.8) (Prison Rec Room (100,184,2))
[2024-05-26 06:55:22.217] ATTACK: Newyearnewme/(Lyndsey Buzzard) (mob_3316) attacked Newyearnewme/(Lyndsey Buzzard) with shard (COMBAT MODE: 1) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 62.5) (Prison Rec Room (100,184,2))
[2024-05-26 06:55:24.130] ATTACK: Newyearnewme/(Lyndsey Buzzard) (mob_3316) attacked Newyearnewme/(Lyndsey Buzzard) with shard (COMBAT MODE: 1) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 62.5) (Prison Rec Room (100,184,2))
[2024-05-26 06:55:25.376] ATTACK: Newyearnewme/(Lyndsey Buzzard) (mob_3316) attacked Newyearnewme/(Lyndsey Buzzard) with shard (COMBAT MODE: 1) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 62.5) (Prison Rec Room (100,184,2))
[2024-05-26 06:55:26.624] ATTACK: Newyearnewme/(Lyndsey Buzzard) (mob_3316) attacked Newyearnewme/(Lyndsey Buzzard) with shard (COMBAT MODE: 1) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 62.5) (Prison Rec Room (100,184,2))

After the shard attacking, Lyndsey healed herself with a suture. When she was brought up to the Security Medbay, I saw that she had a very low blood level, but very little brute damage. I assumed this was because the doctor had healed her before I arrived.

<There are several hundred lines between these two sets of logs, above and below>

(the following is repeated quite a few times in the logs, here is snippet)
[2024-05-26 06:57:11.211] ATTACK: Newyearnewme/(Lyndsey Buzzard) (mob_3316) attempted to inject [Space-Up!] with the syringe (syriniver) which had /datum/reagent/blood (15u, 1 purity) (Prison Wing (105,185,2))
[2024-05-26 06:57:11.212] ATTACK: Newyearnewme/(Lyndsey Buzzard) (mob_3316) transferred reagents to [Space-Up!] with the syringe (syriniver) which had /datum/reagent/blood (5u, 1 purity) (Prison Wing (105,185,2))
[2024-05-26 06:57:14.162] ATTACK: Newyearnewme/(Lyndsey Buzzard) (mob_3316) has thrown Space-Up! . (Prison Wing (105,185,2))
[2024-05-26 06:57:14.202] ATTACK: Newyearnewme/(Lyndsey Buzzard) (mob_3316) splashed (thrown) Blood [floor] with in Prison Wing (104,185,2) (Prison Wing (105,185,2))
[2024-05-26 06:57:14.203] ATTACK: Newyearnewme/(Lyndsey Buzzard) (mob_3316) splashed (thrown) Blood on the floor. (Prison Wing (105,185,2))

https://tgstation13.org/parsed-logs/man ... ack.txt.gz



https://tgstation13.org/parsed-logs/man ... hs.html.gz

2024-05-26 07:00:36 [mob_3316] (115,176,4) || Lyndsey Buzzard (newyearnewme) has died at (Security Medical (115,176,4)).
BRUTE: 9 BURN: 0 TOX: 0 OXY: 195.667 STAM: 0
Brain damage: 0
Blood volume: 324.002cl (57.9%)
Reagents:
Blood:
7.912 units of Mushroom Hallucinogen
9.75 units of Epinephrine
2.68 units of Formaldehyde
1.75 units of Sanguirite

In response to them doing this, I had them pacified. At the time, I believed they had beat themself to death with a bat and a shard of glass, because we found the area covered in blood with a bat nearby when we went down to investigate (myself and someone playing third captain(?) which was apparently a promotion after roundstart). I had the following Ahelp exchange shortly after the pacification, which took around 5-10 minutes of dragging Lyndsey around in a straitjacket.

From Ticket #6 during round 229466 on Manuel:

---- Log Begins ----
2024-05-26 07:22:17: Ticket Opened by dunham: Hey, what happened between you and Lyndsey Buzzard the prisoner?
2024-05-26 07:22:33: Reply from bisar: She beat herself to death with a bat so I pacified her.
2024-05-26 07:22:58: Reply from dunham: Do you have actual proof of this? She's telling me otherwise
2024-05-26 07:23:20: Reply from bisar: She had bled all her blood out. We walked in and found blood everywhere.
2024-05-26 07:28:19: Reply from dunham: That's not a good enough excuse to pacify a prisoner for.
2024-05-26 07:28:47: Reply from bisar: All the evidence pointing to a prisoner beating themself to death isn't good enough reason to pacify them?
2024-05-26 07:29:18: Reply from dunham: A good reason would be beating you up or breaking windows. You're just torturing them at this point
2024-05-26 07:29:28: Reply from bisar: I'm not
2024-05-26 07:29:57: Reply from dunham: You're dragging them around in a straight jacket and pacified them. How'd you like it if you were in their shoes?
2024-05-26 07:30:33: Reply from bisar: I would probably understand if I had just bled myself totally dry
2024-05-26 07:31:06: Reply from dunham: As an admin, I'm telling you to knock it off. Find a better reason next time
2024-05-26 07:31:34: Reply from bisar: knock what off exactly??? what was the appropriate response to them killing themselff????###\#\]
2024-05-26 07:31:47: Reply from bisar: WHAT DO YOU WANT ME TO DO?
2024-05-26 07:32:58: Reply from dunham: Get em to medbay, talk with em to find out what happened, and if they're deemed crazy, put em in a straight jacket and have a psych talk to em or throw them into the padded cell for a bit. Pacifying is a bit too much, they didn't attack you in anyway
2024-05-26 07:39:42: <a>Dunham</a>/(Maxwell Combs) has created a note for Bisar<br />Pacified a prisoner because he thought she deliberately killed herself when they were dying from mushroom toxin. Please don't pacify prisoners unless they're extremely harmful to security staff
2024-05-26 07:42:04: Reply from dunham: In the future please only pacify aggressive prisoners that are attacking your staff.
2024-05-26 07:42:12: Reply from bisar: Ok.
2024-05-26 07:42:23: Resolved by Dunham
---- No Further Messages ----

This ticket can be viewed:

• By the affected player: http://statbus.space/tickets/229466/6
• By admins: http://statbus.space/tgdb/tickets/229466/6

This ticket was generated by Statbus v.1.18.1




With the information available to me, it seemed readily apparent that the prisoner had committed violent suicide. So I had them pacified. In response, dunham put a note on my account about having pacified a prisoner after I mistook a death from mushroom toxin for a violent suicide. The actual facts were that the prisoner slashed themself up, sutured themself, then drained out all their own blood.

[2024-05-26 06:39:14.263] ATTACK: Newyearnewme/(Lyndsey Buzzard) (mob_3316) transferred reagents to Newyearnewme/(Lyndsey Buzzard) with the sunshine pill which had /datum/reagent/drug/mushroomhallucinogen (15u, 1 purity) and /datum/reagent/toxin/mindbreaker (15u, 0.75 purity) (NEWHP: 100) (Prison Visitation Area (99,179,3))

They had taken a bunch of floorpills with the following in them, and apparently their actions with the glass and the syringe was them trying to "get it out"? From what I understood them having told me in character? In any case, having a HIGH SEVERITY note put on my account for pacifying a prisoner who committed violent suicide seems excessive, and as well the note itself is just incorrect.

I think it would have been judicious to have actually consulted the facts before issuing a note of that level.

Attached is a brief exchange I also had with Dunham, Rageguy505, and Newyearnewme in the subsequent pre-round and round start. I quickly ghosted and logged off because I was quite upset. I'm not sure how me going catatonic round-start was handled.

Reconnected
Please set up your character and select "Ready". The game will start in about 3 minutes and 16.6 seconds.
Note left by Dunham on 2024-05-26 07:39:42
Pacified a prisoner because he thought she deliberately killed herself when they were dying from mushroom toxin. Please don't pacify prisoners unless they're extremely harmful to security staff

PM to-Admins: Dying from mushroom toxin?

Current Admins:
• WalterTruck is a GameAdmin
• Striders13 is a AdminTrainer
• Higgin is a GameAdmin
• Dunham is a TrialAdmin
• Rageguy505 is a GameAdmin
Adminhelps are also sent through TGS to services like IRC and Discord. If no admins are available in game, sending an adminhelp might still be noticed and responded to.
OOC: Bisar: Lyndsey: were you dying from toxin damage last round?
OOC: Bisar: it was my understanding you had taken mushroom hallucinogen
OOC: Newyearnewme: no but
OOC: Newyearnewme: mushroom halluninogen decays at like
OOC: Newyearnewme: 0.08 per tik
OOC: Newyearnewme: and it makes you speak rnadom languages
OOC: Bisar: ok so now i have a note for pacifying you while you were 'dying of mushroom toxin'
OOC: Newyearnewme: so i was DESPARETE to try to
OOC: Newyearnewme: well you did pacify me fnr lol
OOC: Bisar: so now i just look like a total fucking dipshit who pacified a prisoner who was dying of poison when that's not what happened at all
OOC: Rageguy505: L

Adminhelp failing to open or work? Click here
-- Administrator private message --
Admin PM from-Dunham: That's what she died from, yeah.

<Round starts>

PM to-Admins: i did not mean to sign up as warden.

OOC: Newyearnewme: bisar im sorry dude but like. that was last round
-- Administrator private message --
Admin PM from-Dunham: Guess you'll have to play as Warden or step down IC'ly
Click on the administrator's name to reply.

It's at that point that I did the ghosting and disconnect. I trimmed out some surrounding natter that, as far as I could tell, was not related to the conversation.

[Dunham]

I'll trim the severity of the note and update it correctly but it's still quite a shitty move to pacify a prisoner over them attempting to get chemicals out of their system.

[Bisar]

The crux of the complaint is that I pacified them for reasons that seemed valid to me; I may have been misinformed on WHY they cut themselves up with a shard of glass then drained out all their blood, but I did it to stop them from violently killing themself again.

Mushroom hallucinogen and mindbreaker, while immensely obnoxious, are also totally nonlethal at any dosage level.

Thank you for taking into account that the severity may have been excessive, but I still believe I didn't really do anything wrong; however, I was going through other complaints, and it seems that an argument about keeping the note altogether would be in the realm of an appeal than a complaint.

I'm complaining because all the facts weren't taken into account when you left the note. It made me feel like I was being crazy-made and villainized for 'torturing' a prisoner.

On reflection, I could have perhaps cuffed them instead of used a straitjacket, but I don't know off the top of my head whether that would have made much of a difference for them. The straitjacket was meant to make the scene of carrying out the actions for reasons of mental stability, whereas handcuffs would have given more of a perpwalk vibe. But I'm digressing again.

[Timberpoes]

From viewtopic.php?p=586754#p586754 :

New host ruling: Admin's banning conduct can not be the subject of an admin complaint. That is what appeals are for, and the appeal leading to the ban being overturn is the minimum bar required before a complaint can be filed that references the ban conduct.

Appeals against bans and notes are the route we ask our players to try first before opening an admin complaint. Notes are treated the same as bans when it comes to the above rule on opening complaints that could instead be handled via appeals.

For the sake of completeness and transparency, I'm going to move this complaint to the ban appeal subforum since some form of engagement between player and admin has already taken place that is appeal-like.

I politely request the player continue to engage with this thread in the context of it being an appeal against the note first and foremost. Note appeal guidelines are set out here (viewtopic.php?p=347563#p347563), and will be copied below for convenience.

Note appeals:
Notes are remarks about players added to player's files in order to help keep track of player behavior, trends, as well as admin interactions with players. Notes have many uses and are not exclusively used to record rule breaking behavior, but we do recognize that their existence can seem like a black mark on the player.

For those reasons, notes can be appealed if they match one of the following two cases:

1. The note is factually or materially incorrect.
   1. There must be a difference between how an admin who knew all the facts would view you vs how an admin who only had the note to go on would view you. If you were being a shit but the note didn't correctly detail exactly how you were being a shit, an appeal nitpicking this detail is unlikely to be granted.
   2. Statements that are clearly pure opinion on the admins part can not be incorrect (because that is what the admin actually believes), but may be appealed under case 2 below.
   3. Appealed bans are only factually incorrect if the conditions around ban itself was incorrect. Getting unbanned because you apologized or similar reasons is not grounds to have the auto-generated note about the ban removed. Likewise: getting unbanned because you broke the rules but the admin or a headmin later determined that a ban was "too much" is not grounds to remove the ban's note.
   4. Notes appealed under this rule may be amended rather than removed.
   5. Notes appealed under this rule will generally be more successful if appealing players offers suggested rewording that they feel properly accounts for nuances without minimizing what the note is trying to highlight. Understand that we have to balance keeping notes short and succinct with accurately reflecting the situation.
2. The note's contents or existence is unjustifiably harsh to the player's standing in the eyes of admins reading the notes.
   1. Notes that contain admin opinions that unfairly paint the player in a bad light are one example.
      1. Emphasis on the phrase "unfairly". If you're repeatedly a shitter and an admin calls you a shitter in a note just take the hint and improve on not being a shitter

-by MSO

[Dunham]

Looking back through the say logs and after a discussion with the admin team, I can see where you're coming from by thinking that pacification would be a good way to stop a prisoner from harming themselves. Even though I believe that it's super harsh to strip someone of their right to defend themselves when they couldn't even speak of what even happened due to the overdose changing their language to Gibberish, I have to remember that not all people play the same way or think the same solutions as I do. Due to seeing your perspective and seeing what you've said while she was getting the surgery, your IC motive was to truly stop her from harming herself, not to punish her for her actions.

With that being said, I'll remove the note and apologize for writing it in the first place.

[Bisar]

Thank you. I understand why you would think I was behaving negatively; I know that my note history isn't exactly stellar so it's fair to believe I might have been misbehaving in a situation like this.