[subtlegraces] MrMindless - AI/Cyborg Jobban appeal

[MrMindless]

Byond account: MrMindless
character name: C.K.D.
Banning admin: Subtlegraces
Ban type: Jobban (AI/Cyborg)
Ban reason and length: Banned for 180 minutes - Twisting his AI laws to be an obstinate jerk to the Captain who changed them; I gave you plenty of chances.
Time ban was placed: 09-Jun-2015 [time unknown]

Your side of the story: The captain that round uploaded a lawset which I at the time believed had as a logical result that any order given by the captain had a significant chance of, as part of the law, cause significant harm [law stated disobeying the captain would kill all humans in the universe] and attempted to prevent the captain from giving orders that could be accidentally disobeyed. However I did admit I crossed a line by doing so by locking the captain in the upload and cutting his means of communicating. It was at this point I was contacted by Subtlegraces and had a discussion regarding the matter. While I discussed for a non-insignificant time I however did undo all the measures I had taken against the captain including releasing him from the upload and lifting all speech blocks as ordered by Subltlegraces. It was at this moment I received a 180 minute ban. Deciding not to apply it however I find myself now jobbanned from AI/Cyborg position. The only action taken related to the matter later on was a PM (ingame) sent by me urging the captain to consider his orders carefully, to avoid any paradoxes. However given that no obstructive actions were taken to accompany said PM I simply consider it a matter of RP.

Why you think you should be unbanned: I honestly believe I complied with Subtlegraces fully following the discussion in adminhelp, if any of the measures were still active when I was banned this was due to oversight, not active malice. If not to be unbanned I would at the very least request Subtlegraces to explain in which way I failed to comply to his wishes and to notify me of the duration of said AI/Cyborg Jobban.

[Scones]

Could you or Subtle post the lawset's exact wording in question?

[MrMindless]

I must say I did not save the exact wording of the lawset so could anyone with access to the logs please post it?

[TechnoAlchemist]

The silicon ban was for 3 days.

[MrMindless]

thank you very much for informing me of that, I am a bit surprised that there is no way to check how long a jobban of this type lasts

[Shad0vvs]

In this round as cyborg,

Could you or Subtle post the lawset's exact wording in question?

Asimov into:
4. Disobeying the Captain will result in the instant deaths of all humans everywhere.

[Subtle]

On occasion we have to discuss with silicon players that despite certain unfun conclusions being the logical reach of the ASIMOV (or any anti-harm) lawset, they cause a lot of trouble and OOC are a pretty dickish thing to do. I.E. strapping all humans to a bed and ensuring they receive proper nutriment/water would be 100% effective in preventing any harm, but it's not acceptable because we're playing a game and that's not fun for anybody else. This is more-or-less one of those situations.

I'm fine with you calling the Captain an idiot for his substandard law. I'm fine with AIs taking advantage of loopholes, however when I have to argue for twenty minutes to get you to repower the room, turn the turrets off, let the Captain out of the upload and unmute him via telecomms from every channel in existence, it would appear that the lesson needs to be more direct.

As we talked about in-game, this entire thing could be solved by just listening to the Captain. Disobedience and inability are, as always, two completely different things.
If the Captain was purposefully using such law conflict to abuse YOU I'd have spoken with them instead.

[Subtle]

After sitting down and thinking about it I'll admit my decision to jobban you was hasty.

There are a number of interpretations regarding that law which are overwhelmingly dangerous, far more than just the one you decided on, and while I didn't like your response to the situation from an OOC perspective it's not my place to judge if the matter is resolved in-character, which it certainly was by the time I applied the ban despite the banter.

For what it's worth, the silicon ban is lifted as of this post. (The notes are also removed)

[Not-Dorsidarf]

Interesting note: The AI was pretty much forced to keep the captain from being able to order anyone around - The law didn't specify that it only applied to the AI , so it was the same as uploading "If anyone disregards the captain's orders, every human will die everywhere". Now imagine the typical reaction of an ss13 crewmember to getting orders from the captain.