[Saegrimr] Futur - Metagaming

[Boogeyman]

Ban reason: Metagamed the round "based on the amount of activity in the round" "nothing was happening so that means nuke ops or malf ai"
Ban length: One week.
Banning admin: Saegrimr

What happened: I was an engineer. Nothing was happening and I was bored. I wanted to get borged so I headed to robotics. I asked the roboticists to let me in but they didn't. I broke in with some tools and just waited around. Sec officer sees me breaking in. We yakkety sax, I dodge 3 taser shots but upon running away get hit. Get brigged for four minutes. Told to not break in again and I tell the officer "The robots will deal with you" and run away back to robotics to get borged. When I'm in robotics I wait around. Guy is in an MMI with a cyborg ready and the roboticists are taking forever putting him in delaying my borging, I put him in the robot and like 2 seconds after that the AI declares. Guy immediately goes secborg and I jump into a locker. He lasers two people to death in robotics and walks out. I go to the intercom to turn it on to announce the AI was malf and how I was going to get borged, but then the cyborg walks in mid sentence (I did let out what I had typed though) lasers me to death. In dead chat, I talk to the Sec officer and he's like bro how did you know? And I told him BECAUSE I AM GOD. I then went on to say, it's obvious when the AI is malf because nothing happens in the round till its caught and declared. Guy's like WAHHH WAHH that's meta! I say boo hoo, and I IC didn't act on any obvious OOC information.

Like five minutes later some Stealthminned admin PM's me and we have a conversation. I'm sure someone will post it here. I told him that I OOC knew that the round was malf because I am not an idiot and am an experienced player. I told him I IC didn't do anything metagaming, and was just speaking in OOC terms in dead chat. He doesn't respond to any of the arguments I made (though I'm sure he said some passive agressive bullshit in adminchat) and he stops PMing me because the round ends.

I play two rounds after this, not a word from admins. I try to log in later today and am manual banned for a week without a word from the admins, unable to explain my case.

So what was I banned for? Knowing what the round type was? Getting myself killed by a cyborg that I made? Getting arrested for 4 minutes? Saying a joke or two over comms?

Or is simply knowing the round type OOC and saying that in deadchat reason enough to warrant a ban? For example, I know that when I see a bunch of people huddled in one area with dissimilar jobs that it's probably a gang/cult/rev round. But IC I don't really know much. Is simply saying in deadchat: "I saw the Janitor, RD, an Engineer, and the Clown huddled around each other in misc sci." "Should have fucking knew they were cultists" reason to get a ban?

No? Then why was I banned?

Also, it really is TERRIBLE for the admins to ban someone with a manual ban AFTER THEY'VE ALREADY TALKED TO HIM. Why ban me 2 rounds after it happened? Why ban me after I had logged out? Are you afraid you can't actually have a conversation with me?

[Boogeyman]

And for clarification, as it may not be evident from the original post.

I never outed the AI.
I never screamed it was rogue.
I never tried to kill the cyborgs.
I never tried to break into its core.
I never looked for APCs.
I never went to the satellite.

I DID borg someone (despite my OOC hunch that the AI was malfunctioning) and I DID die like two minutes later to the person I borged.

What exactly did I do wrong? Where did I meta game?

[Saegrimr]

Actually I was busy running through logs for other information, then went to get food because I forgot.

You were banned because

[17:04:35]SAY: Ghost/Kingofcarrotflowerspt1 : I guessed that the AI was malf based on the amount of activity in the round
[17:04:46]SAY: Ghost/Kingofcarrotflowerspt1 : nothing was happening so that means nuke ops or malf ai

So five minutes of silence after you got tired of yelling about icky girls or something, you somehow guessed the AI was malf, and then proceed to act on it by trying to get borged so you can go on a murder rampage.

[16:50:46]SAY: Futur Ein Gottshanz/Kingofcarrotflowerspt1 : I'm getting borged. I'll be sure to murder you all in the next life.
[16:51:10]SAY: Futur Ein Gottshanz/Kingofcarrotflowerspt1 : Me want to be robot
[16:52:51]SAY: Futur Ein Gottshanz/Kingofcarrotflowerspt1 : G-Gos-sh-h w-w-w-wh-hat-t-t is-s-s y-y-your p-pr-rob-bl-l-lem?
[16:52:56]SAY: Futur Ein Gottshanz/Kingofcarrotflowerspt1 : I just want to get borged.
[16:58:46]SAY: Futur Ein Gottshanz/Kingofcarrotflowerspt1 : The robots will take care of you/
[16:59:22]SAY: Futur Ein Gottshanz/Kingofcarrotflowerspt1 : I want to be turned into a cyborg
[16:59:36]SAY: Futur Ein Gottshanz/Kingofcarrotflowerspt1 : BORG MEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
[17:00:00]SAY: Futur Ein Gottshanz/Kingofcarrotflowerspt1 : I WANNA BE A CYBORG!
[17:00:24]SAY: Futur Ein Gottshanz/Kingofcarrotflowerspt1 : LET ME IN
[17:00:28]SAY: Futur Ein Gottshanz/Kingofcarrotflowerspt1 : I WANNA BE BORGED
[17:00:38]SAY: Futur Ein Gottshanz/Kingofcarrotflowerspt1 : BORG MEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
[17:00:52]SAY: Futur Ein Gottshanz/Kingofcarrotflowerspt1 : ME WANT TO BE CYBORG
[17:01:18]SAY: Futur Ein Gottshanz/Kingofcarrotflowerspt1 : Cyborg to science entrance.
[17:01:27]SAY: Futur Ein Gottshanz/Kingofcarrotflowerspt1 : Bog
[17:01:33]SAY: Futur Ein Gottshanz/Kingofcarrotflowerspt1 : Good god
[17:01:38]SAY: Futur Ein Gottshanz/Kingofcarrotflowerspt1 : I want to be borged!
[17:02:09]SAY: Futur Ein Gottshanz/Kingofcarrotflowerspt1 : Boooooooooooorg me
[17:03:21]SAY: Futur Ein Gottshanz/Kingofcarrotflowerspt1 : Well I tried to get borged but the AI wo
[17:03:32]EMOTE: Futur Ein Gottshanz/Kingofcarrotflowerspt1 : <B>Futur Ein Gottshanz</B> seizes up and falls limp, his eyes dead and lifeless...

The real problem here is you were stupid enough to admit it, and with your history of metagaming i'm really not inclined to believe you just happened to decide to be a borg in completely good faith here.

[Boogeyman]

I don't have a history of meta gaming, you are mistaken. I was banned on /vg/ for being Sarcalogo. If you want to read that whole shit show for a laugh, take a look here. It's pretty frustrating actually.

http://ss13.pomf.se/forum/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=1866

I've never received a ban for meta gaming on /tg/ or even a note. The problem was that I wanted to get borged? Is that what you are saying? I already told you that the earlier comment was a joke. If you want to use meta arguments for my reasoning for why I got borged, I suppose I can only resort to meta arguments to counter that line of thinking.

You say I wanted to murder everyone, but look at my previous antagging history.

How often do I kill people as an antag?
What is my typical approach when antagging?
When I am subverted as an AI or Cyborg, how do I react?

Are you familiar with how I act in those situations? If so, does my behavior match the purported intent?

If any argument is to be made against me using my notes it is that I am a "valid hunter". If I were to use meta knowledge in my favor, based on the information you have and a general reputation, I would not side with the AI. I would hunt it down.

But the strongest form of argument against this ban is now this. You've changed the ban reason, the original ban reason seems to imply that I used OOC information to spoil the round type and fuck over the AI. I showed that was not the case and you've changed the ban reason to something along the lines of "Became a cyborg because he knew the AI was malfunctioning and wanted to kill people."

There are some problems with the revised statement. First of all, when and how is this bannable? Either this occurs before the AI is revealed to be malfunctioning or after. If it were after, I would agree that the ban reason was just, but also some of the blame would be on the idiot that borged me. But it happened before, which means that there is no sure fire way that I would know the game mode and the ban reason is false. You have to prove that I knew for a fact (not based on a hunch) that the round was Malfunction, and that I deliberately abused this information to become an antagonist. Prove to me, to us, that I was trying to become a cyborg and that I had substantial meta knowledge. Also worth noting is that in this case, I didn't even succeed in becoming borged. I was killed, and was never borged.

The statment

[17:04:35]SAY: Ghost/Kingofcarrotflowerspt1 : I guessed that the AI was malf based on the amount of activity in the round

Is not sufficient proof. First, you are ignoring that this is an elaboration of a response made to another statement said by someone else in dead chat. The statement is out of context and is not a confession to wanting to become borged because the AI was malfunctioning. Secondly, it is a guess. I say as much. "I guessed". It is not meta knowledge. Thirdly, we have to take a look at another statement.

[17:04:46]SAY: Ghost/Kingofcarrotflowerspt1 : nothing was happening so that means nuke ops or malf ai

This statement shows that I was not even sure if it was malfunction. It was in my mind, a 50/50 shot of nuke ops or Malf AI.

In summary: Prove that I knew for a fact that the game mode was malfunction. Prove that I abused this information to try to become an antagonist. If you cannot do this, then use logic and reasoning to explain why you believe someone failing to become an antagonist (become not trying to become) is bannable.

[Boogeyman]

DELETE THIS.

[Saegrimr]

You say I wanted to murder everyone, but look at my previous antagging history.

Actually, you said it.
[16:50:46]SAY: Futur Ein Gottshanz/Kingofcarrotflowerspt1 : I'm getting borged. I'll be sure to murder you all in the next life.

But the strongest form of argument against this ban is now this. You've changed the ban reason, the original ban reason seems to imply that I used OOC information to spoil the round type and fuck over the AI. I showed that was not the case and you've changed the ban reason to something along the lines of "Became a cyborg because he knew the AI was malfunctioning and wanted to kill people."

I didn't touch the ban reason. It is, and continues to be:
"Metagamed the round "based on the amount of activity in the round" "nothing was happening so that means nuke ops or malf ai". Your history of metagaming here and on /vg/ means this is your last change to shape up or ship off."

You metagamed the round antag, and then acted on it. Is this incorrect?

First of all, when and how is this bannable?

For the same reason that people counting the number of readied players in the lobby and comparing it to the crew manifest to check if there were 5 less players and screaming nuke ops also gets you banned. Which is why we had to do away with that feature.
"Nothing exploded yet, must be malf or ops" is just as bad.

Other things that will equally get you removed:
Going to get your implant removed so you can join revs/cults.
Using deadchat knowledge to gain an advantage against other players.
Multikeying or having someone ghost to feed you information.
Any kind of metacomms in general.

Prove that I knew for a fact that the game mode was malfunction. Prove that I abused this information to try to become an antagonist. If you cannot do this, then use logic and reasoning to explain why you believe someone failing to become an antagonist (become not trying to become) is bannable.

I'd rather you prove that you're someone we'd care to keep on this server, hopefully by not getting banned again after this week is up.

[Boogeyman]

Actually, YOU said it.

Futur said it, not me. Futur made a joke. Are jokes not allowed? Futur is Futur. I am me. Christopher. Sarcalogo, KingofCarrotflowers, not Futur. That is a statement made by Futur not myself. It is not indicative of MY desires, nor of Futur's because it is as I said, a joke. If we are talking about OOC actions then we can not use IC actions as evidence for the OOC. It would be like saying that I hate women, because earlier in the round Futur said "All women are whores." I am not Futur.

You metagamed the round antag, and then acted on it. Is this incorrect?

Yes that is incorrect. I go on to say why, if you actually read the post instead of skimming it.

I didn't touch the ban reason.

You did not modify the ban reason mechanically, but when pressed for a ban reason you changed it to be "Tried to become a cyborg because he knew the AI was malfunctioning" I did not meta game anything. I made an OOC guess. I talked about that guess in dead chat. That is it. A guess, it's that simple. A guess. My OOC behavior, and IC behavior are completely separate.

Boogeyman wrote:
First of all, when and how is this bannable?

This was a question that was not directed towards you. It is a question that I go on and answer myself. Your reaction to this one sentence convinces me that you didn't even read my whole post or just skimmed it over. I will repost what I had written after and I'd like for you to read it carefully.

It happened before, which means that there is no sure fire way that I would know the game mode and the ban reason is false. You have to prove that I knew for a fact (not based on a hunch) that the round was Malfunction, and that I deliberately abused this information to become an antagonist. Prove to me, to us, that I was trying to become a cyborg and that I had substantial meta knowledge. Also worth noting is that in this case, I didn't even succeed in becoming borged. I was killed, and was never borged.

The statment

[17:04:35]SAY: Ghost/Kingofcarrotflowerspt1 : I guessed that the AI was malf based on the amount of activity in the round

Is not sufficient proof. First, you are ignoring that this is an elaboration of a response made to another statement said by someone else in dead chat. The statement is out of context and is not a confession to wanting to become borged because the AI was malfunctioning. Secondly, it is a guess. I say as much. "I guessed". It is not meta knowledge. Thirdly, we have to take a look at another statement.

[17:04:46]SAY: Ghost/Kingofcarrotflowerspt1 : nothing was happening so that means nuke ops or malf ai

This statement shows that I was not even sure if it was malfunction. It was in my mind, a 50/50 shot of nuke ops or Malf AI.

In summary: Prove that I knew for a fact that the game mode was malfunction. Prove that I abused this information to try to become an antagonist. If you cannot do this, then use logic and reasoning to explain why you believe someone failing to become an antagonist (become not trying to become) is bannable.

I'd rather you prove that you're someone we'd care to keep on this server, hopefully by not getting banned again after this week is up.

No, no, no. That is not how this goes. I was banned, in absentia, without an opportunity to defend myself. When you ban someone, it is similar to a court of law. The person who is to be banned, is innocent until proven guilty. I, the accused am asking you to prove the things that you are saying. Prove to me I was acting on meta information. If you cannot prove it, then at least put forth a good argument using logic and reasoning as to why what you are saying is true. You are also obligated to respond to my defense, and my arguments. You've so far, just ignored and purposefully misconstrued what I've had to say. If you continue to do this, I will be forced to appeal to someone else higher on the food chain. If you want to have an honest discussion then, please re-read what I have written and consider the arguments presented. You cannot just ban me like this, it is unfair.

[Hornygranny]

Legalism is not welcome, and neither are you.