[saegrimr] Banned for lizard racism & slipping

Oldman Robustin · Thu Oct 08, 2015 12:11 am

You have been banned by saegrimr.
Reason: Starting anti-lizard riots for no reason.
This is a temporary ban, it will be removed in 1440 minutes.

1) Shout anti lizard stuff on radio
2) Slip a lizard officer and take their baton/cuffs
3) Shout anti lizard stuff on radio, demanding security fire the lizards
4) One dude starts toolboxing an officer that's down, I pull the away toward the brig
5) Sec comes after me and I yakety sax around maint for a while
6) Get caught, accept whatever punishment is coming. 10 minute sentence after one of the lizards tells HOS I never harmed them and even tried to prevent harm.
7) BWOINK

Saegrimr: IC RESOLUTION? ON MY SERVER? NO NO NO THAT WONT DO!

As a side note, nothing else was going on. I wasn't aggravating a crisis or preventing security from addressing some greater threat. This was the only event of note taking place. Security was never broken into (or even damaged), nobody was killed, hurt, injured, or seriously inconvenienced. SECURITY, the very people I had aggravated, determined that even taking me out of the round was TOO HARSH of a punishment, and the HOS made that decision with both lizards present (and neither objected).

My biggest beef with this is if my VICTIMS felt like taking me out of the round was a disproportionate punishment, what justification does Saegrimr have for swooping in and taking me out of the next 30 rounds?

My second biggest beef is that there's a HUGE disparity in our policy about these sort of player-driven conflicts. I think they're absolutely healthy in moderation and unless someone is stoking violence as their standard behavior, there's no reason to try and intervene as an admin. I've seen admins both IC and OOC actively and tacitly allow this sort of stupid behavior. Nobody gets hurt, everyone stays entertained for 20-30 minutes, what exactly is the problem here? The alternative is SUICIDE HOPLINE and officers sitting in there department going braindead. Some player driven conflict is healthy when in moderation.

I don't do anti lizard stuff every round, I don't do it every day, or even once a week. I can count on one hand the number of times I've rallied against lizards on radio. If this was about shouting anti lizard stuff on radio, thats even more concerning since (I have no idea what other crew did besides occasionally also shout words of support) its just another wobbly line that keeps shifting in our policy. VIVA DOWN WITH THE SYSTEM! Is not going to get you banned if some idiot runs over and kills the nearest head of staff, why does "DOWN WITH THE LIZARD REGIME, NO MORE LIZARDS!" turn into bannable behavior?

My thinking is that it's not bannable behavior and that this is an outlier of some weird pro-security sentiment that feels the need to put a protective admin bubble around all sec players and ban any non-antags who cause them trouble. I've said many times myself, with far more sec/head/cap experience than almost any admin here, that I would rather engage in that kind of "light" conflict than sit there watching paint dry because the entire crew has been cowed into silence and respect by aggressive admin intervention.

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Thu Oct 08, 2015 12:18 am #124163

Greytide and deal with the consequences. I've also given you a week off assistant.

Your excuse of "Nothing has exploded in the 5 whole minutes i've been on the station, time to greytide" is a pretty weak one.

Oldman Robustin · Thu Oct 08, 2015 12:31 am

Saegrimr wrote:Greytide and deal with the consequences. I've also given you a week off assistant.

Your excuse of "Nothing has exploded in the 5 whole minutes i've been on the station, time to greytide" is a pretty weak one.

Well considering you banned me before I could give a more thorough follow up I dunno what you expect.

The fact we've come to slip & stealing sec items as a bannable form of greytide is just pathetic. I'll be sure to adminhelp the next time the clown slips me and writes "Shitcurity" in crayon outside the brig because shouting memes on the radio and stealing a baton is just a level of silliness that we can't tolerate here on SS13.

"Greytide and deal with the consequences" ACTUALLY meant that you couldn't complain if you ate a perma-sentence/execution/whatever if security caught your tiding ass, usually after you broke into the brig, actually harmed officers, and created chaos when actual station enemies were active.

Now apparently its Saegrimrs pet phrase for "dont say mean things to lizards on radio or ill ban you real good". If you're going to use a phrase to justify your ban, don't misuse an old saying in a completely incorrect context... make your own adage like "I'm a pretty shit admin, sure we've allowed for this type of behavior for years but I saw an opportunity to ban Oldman and thought, why not?". That one seems a lot more fitting.

Just for fun I went and read our greytide policy threads. Absolutely nothing you've done or said is supported by posts from past or current headmins, or any kind of significant support from adminbus. Policy doesn't support a dayban, my victims didn't want me taken out of the round, let alone daybanned, outside of disliking me how do you actually justify the dayban here?

Oldman Robustin · Thu Oct 08, 2015 12:41 am

P.S. There's never a good excuse for anti-lizard propaganda. That's the whole point. It's a silly meme that shows up daily here and despite that I almost never participate. Banning someone because they don't have some actual backstory of lizard abuse is absurd.

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Thu Oct 08, 2015 12:45 am #124172

Alright then.

[23:58:37]ADMIN: PM: Saegrimr/(Forgets-The-Signs)->ForcefulCJS/(Oldman Robustin): Why are you trying to start an anti-lizard riot
[23:58:58]ADMIN: PM: ForcefulCJS/(Oldman Robustin)->Saegrimr/(Forgets-The-Signs): because its literally the only thing going on in the station
[23:59:22]ADMIN: saegrimr has banned forcefulcjs.

Note this was about 15 minutes into the round, where you started your riot bullshit pretty much roundstart.

Spoiler:

Now I was going to end this here, but since I have todays logs open the first fucking thing I see this morning.

Spoiler:

Round before the one I banned you in.

Spoiler:

What the fuck is wrong with you

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Thu Oct 08, 2015 12:59 am #124174

In fact, rather than even attempt to deal with your three page essays about absolutely nothing, go bother a headmin about it until they cave in to your oldfag cred.

Post by **lumipharon** » Thu Oct 08, 2015 2:51 am #124192

Why deal with it OOC when it has been handled IC?

That is half the point of sec - relying on them to solve disputes instead of ahelping.

Someone running around stealing everyone's shoes is fucking annoying and dickish, but I would rather sec catch, beat and brig them, then cry to admins to get him banned or some shit.

Post by **Shaps-cloud** » Thu Oct 08, 2015 3:01 am #124201

That's fine and dandy if it happens once in a while, but when you're pulling that shit round after round (like saeg showed), admins are going to step in to cull it

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Thu Oct 08, 2015 3:08 am #124205

lumipharon wrote:Why deal with it OOC when it has been handled IC?

So tell me at what point does "IC punishment" stop overriding OOC punishment?

Guy shoves the clown, clown shoves him back, security batons him and leaves?
Guy smashes the brig windows, and gets his shit batonned?
Guy screams to riot, but nobody takes the bait and he gets slapped by security?
Guy screams to riot, and three people die in the greytide but he got thrown in perma?
Guy murders the clown, but security caught him and brigged him?
Guy releases the singularity, but security caught him executed him?

This is purely hypothetical and I want to see how much of a dick you think someone is allowed to be, you know, so long as security ever touches him.

Post by **lumipharon** » Thu Oct 08, 2015 3:14 am #124207

In your examples, up till screaming riot but nobody gets killed/seriously fucked with.

Of course minor shit should be dealt with by admins when it's done repeatedly (as that is itself is an ooc thing).

Fake edit: So after reading the logs you posted, the above point becomes pertinant in this case, since oldman DOES do retarded ebin meme shit like that fairly often.

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Thu Oct 08, 2015 3:23 am #124210

Right, so maybe extra information that would help here.

The sec officer in question was a lizard. Robustin goes and stuns the lizard for reasons. Random other greyshirt follows up on the YEAH FUCK THE LIZARDS moment and starts toolboxing them. He also caught a 2 day ban because he didn't want to explain to me why he did it.

Raven776 · Post by **Raven776** » Thu Oct 08, 2015 3:50 am #124216

I was the AI during this round. I was even the malf AI.

I can confirm that nothing had really happened. I randomed into AI and malf to boot and was trying to get my toes wet before jumping into the dirty (praying that the roboticist would get some borgs).

As much as it's worth, it would make a lot of sense for him to be bored as shit, and I certainly wasn't helping things by trying to keep my cover by pretending to be malfunctioning as a joke and goading shit on a bit.

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Thu Oct 08, 2015 3:56 am #124217

The admin PM was about 15 minutes into the round, 10 minutes before that is the screaming.

So unless you planned to go delta 5 minutes into the round I don't know what oldman is expecting out of antags. To entertain him immediately at every moment?

Zilenan91 · Post by **Zilenan91** » Thu Oct 08, 2015 4:59 am #124233

I was here during this round. Since I play a lizard, I wasn't too keen to go back to the station from mining due to the shouts of tiding over common almost as soon as the round started.

Jacough · Post by **Jacough** » Thu Oct 08, 2015 6:47 am #124248

If you're bored and you're not an antag maybe you should try doing some fun shit that DOESN'T involve being a dick to other people.

Not-Dorsidarf · Thu Oct 08, 2015 7:20 am

This is just another example of saegrmir going "Oh the victim doesn't want to press charges IC? TIME FOR BANNU"

Oldman Robustin · Thu Oct 08, 2015 9:15 am

I didn't do it BECAUSE I was bored, suicide is the norm for me when I get bored.

Rather I saw 2 lizardsec and decided that shouting about race war while provoking the officers would be time well spent.

Unlike oldtide I didnt:

1) Break anything
2) Hurt anyone
3) Steal anything that would be difficult to replace

Some other dude started toolboxing an officer I slipped so I actually intervened by dragging that officer back toward the brig at my own risk of getting assfucked by sec.

I expected normal server policy for me but somehow Saegrimr has developed some new Greytide policy that completely conflicts with everything I've read and understood on the policy forum. Apparently Saeg's standard is "If you can't justify your behavior to me, I'm going to ban you for it".

You're never going to be able to justify initiating aggression against security OR lizards OR clowns, etc. It's a completely arbitrary standard and that's half of why I'm up-in-arms about this because I have absolutely no idea what's kosher now. Again, greytide in even its mildest form, is never rational or justified behavior... but its asssitant-provoked conflict against security where the tide has both in-game and out-of-game considerations weighed extremely heavy AGAINST their favor (they can't complain to admins, they're also massive outgunned) but now there's a new standard that would conceivably make any kind of aggression against anyone bannable if "your excuse for starting it was shitty".

Also, like I said in the admin complaint, your logposting was extremely cherry picked and shitty. One of those incidents was me just meme'ing it up with HoS Emily Ranger alluding to her staple of slipping all day every day as a combat tool. The other was a greytide reaction against the HOS after a roundstart announcement that he'd be putting assistants on meathooks to encourage us to evacuate back to dreamstation (aka shitty IC raisins by HOS for trying to force map rotation aka an actual reason to yell tide shit on the radio).

I made my comments about the business of the round because I was trying to draw your attention to the fact that my tiding had not created additional problems for security in the face of a larger threat. As a regular security player I appreciate that tiding has its place but it quickly goes from "something to pass the time" to "Major PITA" when the tiding goes on while an actual threat looms over the brig. I could've said plenty of other things but honestly I was just taken off-guard by your question because since when do admins require a real IC justification for lizard racism?!?

Tornadium · Post by **Tornadium** » Thu Oct 08, 2015 9:57 am #124267

This was handled IC, unless at the time people were really that offended I don't think this requires any action?

Sounds like it gave something for sec to do at least.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Thu Oct 08, 2015 10:04 am #124270

Security handled this in game and even the offended parties seem ambivalent or friendly towards Oldman and his stunt.

The worst Oldman seemed to do was push down a Officer and run away with their Baton, hardly worth a ban.

There's a difference between looting and breaking down the brig and attacking Officers versus shouting verbal abuse and on one occasion pushing a Officer then running away.

Jacough · Post by **Jacough** » Thu Oct 08, 2015 10:06 am #124271

I expected normal server policy for me but somehow Saegrimr has developed some new Greytide policy that completely conflicts with everything I've read and understood on the policy forum. Apparently Saeg's standard is "If you can't justify your behavior to me, I'm going to ban you for it".

The first rule of the server is not to be a dick. Did you ever stop to think that

Rather I saw 2 lizardsec and decided that shouting about race war while provoking the officers would be time well spent.

Is being a dick?

Tornadium · Post by **Tornadium** » Thu Oct 08, 2015 10:08 am #124272

Jacough wrote:
I expected normal server policy for me but somehow Saegrimr has developed some new Greytide policy that completely conflicts with everything I've read and understood on the policy forum. Apparently Saeg's standard is "If you can't justify your behavior to me, I'm going to ban you for it".
The first rule of the server is not to be a dick. Did you ever stop to think that

Rather I saw 2 lizardsec and decided that shouting about race war while provoking the officers would be time well spent.
Is being a dick?

By that logic, stripping officers is being a dick.

Shouting shitcurity is being a dick, dragging people from sec hands is being a dick, breaking and entering into the brig is being a dick.

Being a dick IC drives content and conflict within the game, it is a requirement otherwise everyone is just waiting on the valids to start.

Oldman Robustin · Thu Oct 08, 2015 1:05 pm

Jacough wrote: The first rule of the server is not to be a dick. Did you ever stop to think that

Rather I saw 2 lizardsec and decided that shouting about race war while provoking the officers would be time well spent.
Is being a dick?

If I adminhelped everyone who was a dick to me when I play detective/Hos/Captain, and those players were banned, we'd have about 10 players left on the server.

The whole "dont be a dick" thing has a long established understanding of its meaning. We all know that "dont be a dick" does not literally mean "if you do anything dickish, in any sense of the word, we will ban you".

Janitors using water without signs when they have space cleaner is dickish. Almost anything the clown can ever do is dickish. Almost anything that has ever happened in this game that makes me laugh, involved one person being a dick to someone else. Calling the captain a condom at roundstart is dickish. Making the arrival announcer taunt new crewmembers is dickish. Taking a hardsuit but not using it to help prepare the engine or solars is dickish. Making borgs with humiliating names is dickish. Reading WGW is dickish, ETC. None of its bannable.

As I posted in the complaint thread, here's how most of human civilization has enforced rules:

1) Did you break a rule?
2) Was there an overriding justification that would excuse your rule breaking?

Saeg just skipped straight to #2. The only thing he's ever offered for a ban reason was that I didn't have a good excuse for being mean to Lizardsec.

He's not offered, or come anything close to, explaining what I did that made my behavior bannable in the first place. Like I said, I get slipped as security on a daily basis and people swiping my stuff while I'm on the ground is equally common. I make sure that person is set to arrest and regardless of whether or not they turn out to be an antag, I resolve it IC.

At what point did Lizard memes and slip n' steal crimes become BANNABLE? Let me beat the dead horse one last time here, THE HEAD OF SECURITY, WITH BOTH LIZARD OFFICERS PRESENT, DECIDED THAT PERMA WAS TOO HARSH AND THAT A 10 MIN SENTENCE WAS APPROPRIATE. THE LIZARDS DID NOT OBJECT AND ONE (Lizzy Ari) EVEN CONFIRMED THAT I HAD HELPED PROTECT THEM FROM AN ACTUAL HARMFUL ATTACK. THE ENTIRE INCIDENT WAS 100% RESOLVED IN-CHARACTER WITH INPUT FROM THE PLAYERS WHO WERE MOST NEGATIVELY AFFECTED BY MY BEHAVIOR, YOU COULDN'T HAVE A BETTER IDEAL FOR IC RESOLUTION OF A CHARACTER-DRIVEN CONFLICT.

Plus I have absolutely no guidance for what I can do to avoid a ban in the future without being a robot that doesn't so much as utter an insult without having full antag status.

Edit: What's with the "go whine to headmin" meme anyway. I've never contacted or otherwise appealed to a headmin about a ban, I make my appeals on this forum and make all my arguments in an open and transparent process, as opposed to "I'm gonna ban you, not even explain why your behavior was bannable, going to abuse my power by cherry picking the logs to present deceptive evidence without any way for you to provide your own logs, and then lock the thread first chance I get".

Oldman Robustin · Thu Oct 08, 2015 1:57 pm

Found the public logs on the Coding forum (really?), so here's the full versions of the incidents that Saegrimr posted:

"KILL THE HOS" incident from that morning:

Spoiler:

Yea so within 2 minutes of roundstart the HOS had promised to put us on meathooks because he didn't like Boxstation and the crew had agreed to nuke the station and we went delta. But Oldman Robustin shouted "RIOT/KILL THE HOS!!!" a few times on radio in response to the meathook announcement so that's totally bannable in the context of this very serious round.

Spoiler:

Oh my god guys look at this log. Here you can see three veteran players who all generally like each other having fun and churning out some good old meme's together. These players are having FUN and NOBODY IS BEING HARMED OR GRIFF'D. Clearly this is greytide at its absolute worst, I'm sorry for doubting you Saegrimr, hopefully you stop other instances of unauthorized fun from creeping up in the future.

I'm still cracking up at the mallcop bit though, hopefully you'll get around to banning Thomas for his unjustified insults toward the HOS.

Deitus · Post by **Deitus** » Thu Oct 08, 2015 2:18 pm #124339

i was the hos during the round in question, i remember one of my lizard officers got slipped and had the taser stolen by two greyshits, told the officer to set them to arrest and get on with the shift. greytide was pretty high that round, i think i sent one to the gulag and was about to do the same with oldman when he was brought in, he explained he helped an officer and the officer backed him up on the story, though he admitted to theft of something (i think a seclight and/or some other things) so i just gave him about 3-4 minutes, dont think i saw him again after that.

i personally dont think he should be banned, robustin can be a shit sometimes but this is really just greytiding that he accepted the consequences for

Wyzack · Post by **Wyzack** » Thu Oct 08, 2015 2:27 pm #124341

It is a good thing we can have OOC intervention so no one's feelings ever get hurt

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Thu Oct 08, 2015 3:13 pm #124355

Maybe next time you'll think twice before calling for riots. When other people take the bait, you'll be held responsible.

Tornadium · Post by **Tornadium** » Thu Oct 08, 2015 3:26 pm #124357

Saegrimr wrote:Maybe next time you'll think twice before calling for riots. When other people take the bait, you'll be held responsible.

You kinda ignored everything that was said.

Wyzack · Post by **Wyzack** » Thu Oct 08, 2015 3:34 pm #124360

I kinda get that when you spark a riot you will be responsible for any damage or harm that occurs the same way that if you subvert an Ai you are responsible for the murders. The thing is though this riot led to one guy getting toolboxed twice, a baton getting stolen, and Oldman getting punished ic. Not sure what part of this is day ban worthy

Super Aggro Crag · Thu Oct 08, 2015 3:41 pm

forcefulcjs spends every round that he doesn't get a position of authority at round start trying to stir up shit. when he IS in a position of authority, he picks fights with all the other heads and spams the announcement console insulting them and calling them cucks.

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Thu Oct 08, 2015 3:45 pm #124367

Wyzack wrote:I kinda get that when you spark a riot you will be responsible for any damage or harm that occurs the same way that if you subvert an Ai you are responsible for the murders. The thing is though this riot led to one guy getting toolboxed twice, a baton getting stolen, and Oldman getting punished ic. Not sure what part of this is day ban worthy

Because this is the norm for him. If he's not an antag, he's stirring shit up. It went too far, so him and the other person involved were punished.

If he honestly believes this ban is a mistake, he can convince a headmin that he does not in fact greytide at any available moment when not an antag. Because i'm not buying it.

Wyzack · Post by **Wyzack** » Thu Oct 08, 2015 3:49 pm #124371

Well that personally satisfies me, did not realize this was a real repeat issue

Oldman Robustin · Thu Oct 08, 2015 3:49 pm

Saegrimr wrote:Maybe next time you'll think twice before calling for riots. When other people take the bait, you'll be held responsible.

So you banned Kor right?

[23:52:06]SAY: Talos Valcoran/KorPhaeron : SMASH THE BRIG UNTIL THEY FIRE THE LIZARDS
[23:52:11]SAY: Talos Valcoran/KorPhaeron : SMASH THE WINDOWS
[23:55:59]SAY: Talos Valcoran/KorPhaeron : THEY ARE SWARMING OLDMAN

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Thu Oct 08, 2015 3:57 pm #124374

Oldman Robustin wrote:So you banned Kor right?

Considering you were the first to call out for it, you are the one being held responsible.

Spoiler:

Oldman Robustin · Thu Oct 08, 2015 3:59 pm

Super Aggro Crag wrote:forcefulcjs spends every round that he doesn't get a position of authority at round start trying to stir up shit. when he IS in a position of authority, he picks fights with all the other heads and spams the announcement console insulting them and calling them cucks.

Nice try Aggro, just because I hurt YOUR feelings while playing a head doesn't make it a pattern of behavior. Also I don't call people cucks as cap/security, such a word is beneath them.

My average round is either trying some gimmick in science, making an autism fort in engineering/atmos, or doing a completely acceptable job as captain/security, or if I'm busy IRL and don't want to waste a job slot, I'll go assistant and typically suicide if the round looks boring and I'd rather just ghost so I can follow the action. Maybe 2% of those rounds, when I'm bored, when I'm a non-critical role, I'll start up some stupid meme and yell about it on radio.

The catch is that I play far more than the average player or admin, so what's 2% of my rounds to me is 50% of the rounds to you. There's also a massive selection bias because you don't notice my average round because I'm quiet and will rarely leave my department, but when I'm screaming on the radio or making an announcement broadcast, EVERYONE knows I'm there.

Super Aggro Crag · Thu Oct 08, 2015 4:05 pm

You didn't hurt my feelings, but your feud with the CMO resulted in me having to have to try to run medbay by myself while you sniped at each other and flashbanged people to death in the path of a blob.

Tornadium · Post by **Tornadium** » Thu Oct 08, 2015 4:15 pm #124387

I've seen Oldman play quite a lot of rounds without Greytiding and actually doing a decent job as a head or as Med/Sci staff.

Oldman Robustin · Thu Oct 08, 2015 4:28 pm

Saegrimr wrote:
Oldman Robustin wrote:So you banned Kor right?
Considering you were the first to call out for it, you are the one being held responsible.

1) Thank you for finally developing a coherent reason for the ban

2) That is still shit policy that I've never heard before. Banning people for radio memes instead of just the idiots who take it too far, it's an illogical incoherent policy that would do nothing but chill the SS13 banter that we all cherish.

Let's have a thought experiment:

I) Someone says something dumb on the radio that attempts to focus aggression against a crew member. These statements are not credible or persuasive (e.g. Compare "CAPTAINS A CONDOM, LETS GET RID OF HIM!" to "HOP IS A TRAITOR I JUST SAW HIM PUT A REVOLVER IN HIS POCKET"). Recognizing that we're all intelligent adults who can tell the difference between a credible call to arms versus a meme that's just trying to get a reaction. If someone memes on radio and people join him, it's not because of their incredible powers of persuasion, but rather the players heard someone being an idiot and thought "hey that's a nice meme, I'm going to do it too". These new memesters made a completely voluntary decision and were not manipulated or deceived in any way, they 100% knew what they were doing. The admins can now:

a) Recognize that the people who joined in on the meme did so knowing EXACTLY what they were doing and why. Punish them as appropriate for whatever rules they broke.

b) Don't hold them accountable for their behavior, only the person who meme'd first. Make sure to actually incentivize people to hop aboard grey tides because it will give them heightened immunity from admins, if they bwoink you just blame it on the first guy and you're good to go as long as you didn't toolbox anyone. This is totally a good idea and smart policy. It also makes sure radio is reduced to nothing but AI requests and Arrival announcements, just like god intended.

>TFW when Saegrimr's hate speech policy is actually more restrictive than free speech policy in real life, where you have real people who suffer real harm from it.

Why.

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Thu Oct 08, 2015 4:37 pm #124400

Ahaha hold on I gotta stop you right here at

Oldman Robustin wrote:Recognizing that we're all intelligent adults who can tell the difference between a credible call to arms versus a meme that's just trying to get a reaction.

Now this is a quality meme.

The people who join in get punished.
The person who started it will also be punished, this is to prevent the "but this guy started it" and to stop that kind of greytide shit in the first place.
Had you not riled people up to gas the liggers space war now, would the other guy have just run up to the sec officer you stunned and started toolboxing them? Maybe? At least it would have been just on him instead.

TechnoAlchemist · Thu Oct 08, 2015 4:39 pm

Awhile ago we had a memo about cracking down on any race war shit stirring at all after it got really bad. I'm fairly certain players saw it too.

Oldman Robustin · Thu Oct 08, 2015 5:00 pm

It's actually funny because I refrained from using ultra-hostile language.

I never called for them to die, or to kill them, or any of that. Knowing that going full-on murderfrenzy is frowned upon, and it's not even that funny since it feels too forced, I held back and used more nuanced language to suggest that we simply remove lizards from positions of power, not tear them apart along with anyone caught in our path.

[23:48:05]SAY: Oldman Robustin/ForcefulCJS : PLEASE BE ADVISED THE GREYTIDE IS NOT SEEKING TO OVERTHROW THE SYSTEM, ONLY THE LIZARDS!!!!
[23:50:40]SAY: Oldman Robustin/ForcefulCJS : DOWN WITH THE LIZARD REGIME!!!
[23:51:49]SAY: Oldman Robustin/ForcefulCJS : SECURITY YOU HAVE TWO OPTIONS
[23:51:55]SAY: Oldman Robustin/ForcefulCJS : FIRE THE LIZARD
[23:52:01]SAY: Oldman Robustin/ForcefulCJS : OR FACE THE TIDE!!!
[23:53:13]SAY: Oldman Robustin/ForcefulCJS : RELEASE THE HUMAN PATRIOTS!!!
[23:55:27]SAY: Oldman Robustin/ForcefulCJS : HES-S OUT-T-T F-FOR-R-R-R UM-MAN B-B-BL-L-LOOD-D AN-ND-D OUR-R WOM-MAN-NS-S V-V-VIR-R-RGINIT-TY

The harshest word I used was "purge" which I meant in "remove them from positions of power" way and not a purge-the-movie style murderfrenzy.

Notice how I only call for the lizards to be FIRED from security? That I want lizards out of powerful positions, not out of the realm of the living?

These aren't small details. I never tried to promote harm, only a political restructuring.

Amelius · Post by **Amelius** » Thu Oct 08, 2015 5:02 pm #124412

Oldman Robustin wrote:Oh my god guys look at this log. Here you can see three veteran players who all generally like each other having fun and churning out some good old meme's together. These players are having FUN and NOBODY IS BEING HARMED OR GRIFF'D. Clearly this is greytide at its absolute worst, I'm sorry for doubting you Saegrimr, hopefully you stop other instances of unauthorized fun from creeping up in the future.

I'm still cracking up at the mallcop bit though, hopefully you'll get around to banning Thomas for his unjustified insults toward the HOS.

I was the HoS and can confirm it was 100% fun and consensual for all parties. No one was injured, no one died, we didn't lose a prisoner en route, or anything for that matter. Thomas pelting donuts at me was absolutely fucking hilarious, and it kept me occupied instead of going half-braindead due to zero station activity.

In case you're wondering why the logs Oldman cited didn't have me talking much, it was because I was searching / brigging Thomas for trespassing onto the bridge at that juncture.

Spoiler:

Shadowlight213 · Thu Oct 08, 2015 8:44 pm

Holding only the first person to call out shit responsible and giving everyone who joins in a free pass is stupid. Banning only Oldman in this case sets a poor precedent. Don't forget, he never actually attacked anyone and actually saved the guy being toolboxed. I personally haven't seen this kind of behavior from him before, so this doesn't seem to fall under the same region of people who yell greytide almost every round.

Wyzack · Post by **Wyzack** » Thu Oct 08, 2015 8:56 pm #124461

Saeg did ban the other guy though

Oldman Robustin · Thu Oct 08, 2015 9:31 pm

Wyzack wrote:Saeg did ban the other guy though

Yea and that's where we get this curious divide:

Dude 1: Shouts race war memes and toolboxes a slipped officer, ding dong bannu
Dude 2: Shouts race war memes and will drag away fellow greytides, loot dropped sec items, etc., no bannu
Dude 3: Shouts race war memes before anyone else, slip security and take a baton, ding dong bannu

I mean I have this sneeeaking suspicion that the key difference between 2 and 3 was that 3 is Oldman Robustin and 2 is a well-liked admin... more of the former than the latter I think (i.e. not admin favoritism, just saeg hating me). Muh logs weren't even used until after the ban and I think I've been able to establish that those logs are not indicative of me being a habitual greytider, so we're left with "uh he said that mean stuff first".

At this rate I'd just be happy if there was a tacit understanding that this was a grudgeban, I'd rather have saeg occasionally treat me like shit than have some overarching policy where now even slipping security or shouting tide memes on radio can catch you a ban. At least Saeg isn't at Brotemis levels of automatically stalking me every round and whispering in my ear every time I pick up insulated gloves or grab a spare weapon that I'm powergaming and need to cut it out.

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Thu Oct 08, 2015 9:49 pm #124483

If it was a grudge ban i'd find way more ways to loophole you into stupid bullshit. I had logged in beyond the point of where it started. Because of an ahelp that went through to IRC about shit happening because gas the liggers race war now.

First thing I find is the person in the gulag with a nice long stream of "HAS TOOLBOXED THIS DUDE", he refuses to answer why so ding dong bannu.
So then I go to look who started it in the first place. When the answer I got was what appeared to me as "I was bored", there wasn't anything else to go off of, job well done, everyone can go home now.

Accusing me of bias is the fastest way to get me biased.

lollerderby · Thu Oct 08, 2015 10:48 pm

Calling riots for no reason is pretty bad, but if you actually didn't end up ruining any rounds then this didn't really have to be a ban.

Oldman Robustin · Fri Oct 09, 2015 12:30 am

If you don't want to get accused of bias then talk through an event before banning someone.

I don't think I've ever been banned so abruptly, especially when this was hardly an open-shut case.

I wasn't providing you with a blanket justification for my behavior, I was explaining a mitigating factor... that my troublemaking was the only thing security was dealing with, with a fully staffed sec force, and thus some nonharmful slip n' steal greytiding and radio memes didn't fall into actionable behavior.

You took it as "Im allowed to do what I want when I'm bored" when I meant "Its really quiet on station, my activities were not overly disruptive". Maybe not being such a quick draw on the ban button would avoid misunderstandings.

peoplearestrange · Fri Oct 09, 2015 9:58 am

I think this has become a back and forth between mainly two involved parties. Maybe its time for an unbiased headmin to rule on this. Its clearly not going to get anywhere with just Saeg and Oldman talk as they both CLEARLY think they are right and the other is wrong and refuse to see any middle ground.

I'd appreciate if everyone could stop posting unless its something particularly relevant and/or hasn't been mentioned before, until a headmin resolves this.
I'm avoiding locking however.

imblyings · Post by **imblyings** » Fri Oct 09, 2015 12:01 pm #124645

ok I had a quick look over it

First off, cherrypicking logs after the fact really isn't nice. Admins actively finding reasons to ban people, well. I can see how that would be taken badly. Keep in mind though, that there are legitimate circumstances where for whatever example, admins need to step in to make sure people don't get the wrong idea about being able to get away with things because people didn't complain when they did it once.

For the incident itself, I don't endorse rioting or anything siccing other players on others for no reason other than, I'm bored. I might not personally ban for it whenever it happens but it does make you very valid, if not for bans, then for badmin things that are very unsporting and ruin the instigators fun very quickly. In this case though, nobody really got hurt so I'm not sure why this ban even happened.

That being said, 'I'm bored' or 'the round is quiet' is not an excuse to actually grief someone or ever grief. I've banned and seen people banned for it, it's a horrid excuse.

Tornadium · Post by **Tornadium** » Fri Oct 09, 2015 12:07 pm #124649

imblyings wrote:ok I had a quick look over it

First off, cherrypicking logs after the fact really isn't nice. Admins actively finding reasons to ban people, well. I can see how that would be taken badly. Keep in mind though, that there are legitimate circumstances where for whatever example, admins need to step in to make sure people don't get the wrong idea about being able to get away with things because people didn't complain when they did it once.

For the incident itself, I don't endorse rioting or anything siccing other players on others for no reason other than, I'm bored. I might not personally ban for it whenever it happens but it does make you very valid, if not for bans, then for badmin things that are very unsporting and ruin the instigators fun very quickly. In this case though, nobody really got hurt so I'm not sure why this ban even happened.

That being said, 'I'm bored' or 'the round is quiet' is not an excuse to actually grief someone or ever grief. I've banned and seen people banned for it, it's a horrid excuse.

It's not really even griefing though, We've gone far too hardcore on what the definition of griefing is.

Starting some IC conflict is not griefing, hell half the time as Sec i'm almost hoping Cargonia will start.