3/3 in shitty bans this month, this time for bombing a wiz.

Oldman Robustin · Sun Oct 25, 2015 2:47 am

Byond account and character name: ForcefulCJS
Banning admin: lollerderby
Ban type (What are you banned from?): Banned from server
Ban reason and length: 4-5 days
Time ban was placed (including time zone): 10:45pm'ish
Your side of the story/Why you think you should be unbanned:

1) Lich
2) Summons a slaughter demon
3) Jaunts away
4) Just had a memezard round with a wizard hiding in maint all shift, now we get a LICH
5) Head to science to cook up the only known counter for liches
6) Occasionally see/hear about wizard fighting the crew, HOS is using an ion gun to attack the wizard. Wizard has been killed at least once and crew has not been able to destroy the body. Chaos rising as blood is being spread, demon being demon, etc.
7) Hear magic near medbay, walk into lobby and see two chemists ON THE GROUND
8) Wizard shoots one chemist a syringe gun
9) I assume they're probably fucked and a close range detonation is the only way to end this nightmare
10) Self-detonate, gib wizard, two chemists, and at least one other person in the medbay lobby

11) Banned, "WIZARD WASNT ENOUGH OF A THREAT TO JUSTIFY MAXCAPPING THE MEDBAY ENTRANCE AND KILLING MULTIPLE INNOCENTS"

Are bombs just ban bait at this point? Is Lich just a hilarious meme to lure people into getting banned?

Bonus points for banning me for failling to successfully bomb a blob (after screaming about it on radio for 2 minutes, turns out coders had made blobs bomb immune without logging it), then banning me for successfully bombing an antag that hadn't reached a critical mass of murderbone so I just have to sit around and let demons/wizard fuck with people until.. when exactly? Am I supposed to be psychic and know all the wizards spells and personal bodycount before killing it?

Fucking christ admins get a coherent bomb policy together.

Shadowlight213 · Sun Oct 25, 2015 2:51 am

Please follow the FNR appeal template as shown in https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=44

Deitus · Post by **Deitus** » Sun Oct 25, 2015 2:51 am #129163

i was in that round. you took out multiple innocents and nearly took out cyro. you deserved that ban.

lollerderby · Post by **lollerderby** » Sun Oct 25, 2015 3:02 am #129166

The wizard DISARMED a chemist and shot him with itching powder, he had no weapons except the syringe gun he had just stolen, he had no offensive spells, he was not enough of a threat to justify detonating a MAXCAP in MEDBAY and rendering one of the most highly trafficked areas on the station inhabitable as well as killing multiple innocents who were in no real danger.

Yes you should have some idea how dangerous the person/thing you're suicide bombing is before you BLOW UP A MEDBAY FULL OF INNOCENTS TO KILL IT.

I'm surprised you FNR'd this after I very leniently only banned you for four days, appeal denied.

Amelius · Post by **Amelius** » Sun Oct 25, 2015 3:13 am #129169

lollerderby wrote:The wizard DISARMED a chemist and shot him with itching powder, he had no weapons except the syringe gun he had just stolen, he had no offensive spells, he was not enough of a threat to justify detonating a MAXCAP in MEDBAY and rendering one of the most highly trafficked areas on the station inhabitable as well as killing multiple innocents who were in no real danger.

Yes you should have some idea how dangerous the person/thing you're suicide bombing is before you BLOW UP A MEDBAY FULL OF INNOCENTS TO KILL IT.

I'm surprised you FNR'd this after I very leniently only banned you for four days, appeal denied.

> You should have to evaluate how dangerous an enemy of the corporation and single antagonist is that is provided with an army of spells that instakill, escape, and unavoidably stuns, before bombing it.

> You should have to scan everyone around you with a medical scanner after they're hit with a syringe gun shot by an obvious spell-toting enemy of the corporation to see if it was lethal or not before coming to the conclusion that he is a danger.

That rationale is like banning for bombing a blob piloted by a retard, and being banned despite taking out the blob because 'you need to evaluate how dangerous it is first!'

I thought the rule was that if you got the primary antag it's legit.

Oldman Robustin · Sun Oct 25, 2015 3:17 am

lollerderby wrote:The wizard DISARMED a chemist and shot him with itching powder, he had no weapons except the syringe gun he had just stolen, he had no offensive spells, he was not enough of a threat to justify detonating a MAXCAP in MEDBAY and rendering one of the most highly trafficked areas on the station inhabitable as well as killing multiple innocents who were in no real danger.

Yes you should have some idea how dangerous the person/thing you're suicide bombing is before you BLOW UP A MEDBAY FULL OF INNOCENTS TO KILL IT.

I'm surprised you FNR'd this after I very leniently only banned you for four days, appeal denied.

I saw him attacking people and heard about it on radio. How the fuck am I supposed to know what was in the syringe gun? Or that he had downed two chemists with his bare hands and not a spell (seriously, count the number of times... since the beginning of time... that a wizard has stunned two people at the same time by pushing them on the ground instead of magic missiling them).

I saw plenty of bodies, I saw the wizard attacking the crew indiscriminately with stolen weapons. I couldn't find out anything else on radio except that the HOS was a piece of shit and the crew was not successful in stopping it. We also had a slaughter demon and even after ahelping you about it, there was no clear answer as to whether killing the wizard would end the round (does it? still unclear about this, killing the wizard when survivors are aboard now ends the round without mulligan, why are slaughterdemons any different?).

Just completely incoherent policy. Lich just feels like ban bait at this point. I'll take jaunt, summon some genocide antags, and then just jaunt around attacking people and nobody can ever kill me without getting banned! ITS BEAUTIFUL!

lollerderby · Post by **lollerderby** » Sun Oct 25, 2015 3:20 am #129176

Amelius wrote:
lollerderby wrote:The wizard DISARMED a chemist and shot him with itching powder, he had no weapons except the syringe gun he had just stolen, he had no offensive spells, he was not enough of a threat to justify detonating a MAXCAP in MEDBAY and rendering one of the most highly trafficked areas on the station inhabitable as well as killing multiple innocents who were in no real danger.

Yes you should have some idea how dangerous the person/thing you're suicide bombing is before you BLOW UP A MEDBAY FULL OF INNOCENTS TO KILL IT.

I'm surprised you FNR'd this after I very leniently only banned you for four days, appeal denied.
> You should have to evaluate how dangerous an enemy of the corporation and single antagonist is that is provided with an army of spells that instakill, escape, and unavoidably stuns, before bombing it.

Yes, you should. If no one has died to the wizard himself because he has no weapons or offensive spells then suicide bombing him and taking out a room full of people as well as a major part of the station is right out. You do not serve enough of a good in eliminating him as a threat to justify all the collateral.

> You should have to scan everyone around you with a medical scanner after they're hit with a syringe gun shot by an obvious spell-toting enemy of the corporation to see if it was lethal or not.

That rationale is like banning for bombing a blob piloted by a retard, and being banned despite taking out the blob because 'you need to evaluate how dangerous it is first!'

Okay, go maxcap bomb a blob that's down to just a core with half a dozen people welding it down and see how that works out for you.

I thought the rule was that if you got the primary antag it's legit.

If you end the round with the explosion it's overlooked because the round is over and so any collateral damage is pretty much irrelevant, but he failed to end the round even though he killed the wizard because there were other antagonists active that kept the round going.

Oldman Robustin · Sun Oct 25, 2015 3:24 am

If you end the round with the explosion it's overlooked because the round is over and so any collateral damage is pretty much irrelevant, but he failed to end the round even though he killed the wizard because there were other antagonists active that kept the round going.

Best policy evar!!1!one!

Is there still an active slaughter demon? Do slaughter demons keep a round going even if the wizard is dead? YOU HAVE NO WAY OF KNOWING, NOW GRAB A TTV AND PLAY BAN ROULETTE TODAY!!!

Our "does the round continue" code is incoherent at this point. Between mulligans obfuscating the outcome of killing antags and the multitude of changes (survivors don't keep the wizard round going anymore, I think, but they definitely used to, but probably not anymore, maybe).

Like I said, between the HOS using an ION GUN on the wizard and several bodies being dragged around the station, I have 0 fucking clue as to how many bodies are from a demon or from the wizard. You're asking for completely unreasonable knowledge to justify bombing an immortal fucking antag. I love how you mentioned that he used TWO slaughter demons and exhausted his spell options like ANYONE is ever going to have that level of information before killing a wizard. It's absurd.

lollerderby · Post by **lollerderby** » Sun Oct 25, 2015 3:33 am #129183

Oldman Robustin wrote:I saw him attacking people and heard about it on radio. How the fuck am I supposed to know what was in the syringe gun? Or that he had downed two chemists with his bare hands and not a spell (seriously, count the number of times... since the beginning of time... that a wizard has stunned two people at the same time by pushing them on the ground instead of magic missiling them).

I don't blame you for not knowing what was in the syringe gun, but I find it hard to believe that there was any reason to consider him a massive threat, I didn't see anyone in the logs yelling about him killing people or personally doing any harm, in fact you had a hug-off with him.

I saw plenty of bodies, I saw the wizard attacking the crew indiscriminately with stolen weapons. I couldn't find out anything else on radio except that the HOS was a piece of shit and the crew was not successful in stopping it. We also had a slaughter demon and even after ahelping you about it, there was no clear answer as to whether killing the wizard would end the round (does it? still unclear about this, killing the wizard when survivors are aboard now ends the round without mulligan, why are slaughterdemons any different?).

Honestly, I'm not sure. Mulligan is shit and I have no idea how it works.

Just completely incoherent policy. Lich just feels like ban bait at this point. I'll take jaunt, summon some genocide antags, and then just jaunt around attacking people and nobody can ever kill me without getting banned! ITS BEAUTIFUL!

If a wizard is very dangerous sometimes the good of killing him outweighs the bad of collateral, but that was certainly not the case here, you were much more damaging to the station and the crew then the wizard himself by far.

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Sun Oct 25, 2015 3:33 am #129184

Or you could stop trying to maxcap all your problems away.

lollerderby · Post by **lollerderby** » Sun Oct 25, 2015 3:36 am #129185

Oldman Robustin wrote:
If you end the round with the explosion it's overlooked because the round is over and so any collateral damage is pretty much irrelevant, but he failed to end the round even though he killed the wizard because there were other antagonists active that kept the round going.
Best policy evar!!1!one!

Is there still an active slaughter demon? Do slaughter demons keep a round going even if the wizard is dead? YOU HAVE NO WAY OF KNOWING, NOW GRAB A TTV AND PLAY BAN ROULETTE TODAY!!!

No one is forcing you to make a maxcap and fucking blow up a medbay full of people. This is the risk you take, if there had been no slaughter demons, mulligan, or anything of the sort involved and you tried to suicide bomb the wizard and missed you'd still be banned.

Our "does the round continue" code is incoherent at this point. Between mulligans obfuscating the outcome of killing antags and the multitude of changes (survivors don't keep the wizard round going anymore, I think, but they definitely used to, but probably not anymore, maybe).

Like I said, between the HOS using an ION GUN on the wizard and several bodies being dragged around the station, I have 0 fucking clue as to how many bodies are from a demon or from the wizard. You're asking for completely unreasonable knowledge to justify bombing an immortal fucking antag. I love how you mentioned that he used TWO slaughter demons and exhausted his spell options like ANYONE is ever going to have that level of information before killing a wizard. It's absurd.

Maybe if you don't know that much about the situation you shouldn't leap into it with a primed maxcap bomb.

Oldman Robustin · Sun Oct 25, 2015 3:42 am

But I didn't missed, I gibbed the lich.

I searched Github and I STILL don't understand what will allow a wizard round to end without a mulligan triggering.

How the fuck can you honestly stand behind a BOMB KILLS INNOCENTS = BAN UNLESS ROUND ENDS when there's absolutely 0 fucking way of knowing if the bomb is ever, EVER going to end the round?

It's a goddamn joke and I hope you realize that.

Between the slaugher demons and the lich, a bomb was the only realistic option for stopping the antags that round.

WHY ARE WE DESIGNING THE GAME WITH ANTAGS THAT REQUIRE BOMBS TO KILL WHILE ALSO BANNING FOR BOMBS THAT DONT END THE ROUND WHILE SIMULTANEOUSLY ADDING ALL SORTS OF OBTUSE MECHANICS THAT ALLOW ROUNDS TO CONTINUE IN ALMOST ANY CIRCUMSTANCE.

UnconqueredSun · Sun Oct 25, 2015 3:43 am

Okay, I realize how bad this sounds, but please hear me out. He's making some fairly good points. Now, I wasn't there myself so I'm only going off of what other people are saying.

It is quite unreasonable to assume that the crew can accurately determine the Wizard's spell loadout, especially if they havent' encountered them themselves. Two bodies on the ground can mean anything, he could have shot them with anything from chloral to neurotoxin. Plus, you know, when the wizard is right in front of you, you're not exactly thinking clearly. It might have been a bit extreme, but since this was a lich greater force is usually required.

I mean sure, Oldman is being a little...animated in his appeals/arguments. But it is a little much to penalize him for something like this.

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Sun Oct 25, 2015 3:43 am #129189

Bombing a lich doesn't even matter if they still got their phylactery somewhere. Nevermind i'm wrong as fuck, I think.

lollerderby · Post by **lollerderby** » Sun Oct 25, 2015 3:44 am #129190

I'm not going to argue this all night, any other admins/headmins are free to chime in but as far as I'm concerned this appeal is denied.

Oldman Robustin · Sun Oct 25, 2015 3:45 am

Saegrimr wrote:Bombing a lich doesn't even matter if they still got their phylactery somewhere.

Incorrect. Gibbing ends the wizard-lich 5ever.

Its the only way to kill the lich in the field permanently (unless you got polymorph wands or some shit).

lollerderby wrote:I'm not going to argue this all night, any other admins/headmins are free to chime in but as far as I'm concerned this appeal is denied.

Why are you even ruling or attempting to state a ruling for your own appeal? Even when SOS was the host he would let someone else have authority on the appeal.

It's so funny how much our bomb policy has 180'd since the last batch of headmins. I was encouraged by at least two of the old headmins to drop maxcaps on any solo antag or antag powerful enough to avoid traditional methods of killing. I bombed a slaughter demon in almost exactly the same spot, round didn't end, multiple innocents died, and it had been personally authorized by a headmin. Now we have this incoherent END THE ROUND OR EAT A BAN bomb policy?

God damn. At least give me a coherent policy.

Shadowlight213 · Sun Oct 25, 2015 3:49 am

Oldman Robustin wrote: REQUIRE BOMBS TO KILL

They don't REQUIRE bombs, and they certainly don't fucking require MAXCAPS. There are other ways to kill them.

Oldman Robustin · Sun Oct 25, 2015 3:53 am

palpatine213 wrote:
Oldman Robustin wrote: REQUIRE BOMBS TO KILL
They don't REQUIRE bombs, and they certainly don't fucking require MAXCAPS. There are other ways to kill them.

Ok I've hidden my phylactery in some "secret" maint room or deep space like 99% of other liches.

When I revive I just chill for a bit to make sure I can revive before someone drags me to chapel/kitchen.

You have to kill me to stop me from attacking the crew. How do you do it without bombs?

Don't forget I'm immune to chems and will constantly jaunt around too!

Fonedsky · Post by **Fonedsky** » Sun Oct 25, 2015 3:56 am #129196

Hi fams. Wiznerd here.
Can confirm, never actually damaged anyone IIRC, unless you count the slaughter demons as indirect damage.
I bought three bottles of meme blood, liched a broom, hid it in the vault, jaunted into a hallway and summoned the demons. Out of the three, only one (very good one, mind you) survived. I was generally just screwing around, hugging people, got killed at least thrice, saved by a demon because it ate me. On my last life, I went to chemistry. Chemists would probably kill me before I could recharge and my RISE spell was charging, so I disarmed em, dude tried to shoot me with itching powder but I disarmed him and shot him. Didn't see the bomb coming, rip in kill. Slaughter demon did a lot of damage post-bomb, but that's beside the point.

lollerderby · Post by **lollerderby** » Sun Oct 25, 2015 4:09 am #129197

Oldman Robustin wrote:
lollerderby wrote:I'm not going to argue this all night, any other admins/headmins are free to chime in but as far as I'm concerned this appeal is denied.
Why are you even ruling or attempting to state a ruling for your own appeal? Even when SOS was the host he would let someone else have authority on the appeal.

https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Admin_Conduct

Zilenan91 · Post by **Zilenan91** » Sun Oct 25, 2015 4:11 am #129198

Oldman blobs have been bomb immune literally for months. How have you not known this. Also wouldn't it be wise to actually wait more than ten minutes to have passed to appeal something that destroyed an entire department, killed a bunch of people, and made it very hard for people to get to the escape wing?

Krutchen · Post by **Krutchen** » Sun Oct 25, 2015 4:43 am #129208

So is Lich getting redone to make it so they have a set amount of lives, so that people don't have to resort to large scale gibbing methods, or mad dashes against the clock across the entire station to get to the kitchen?
Are you seriously going to throw bans around for inconsequential meme wizard rounds, when said wizard is directly harming the crew as what is quite possibly the least thought out wizard type in /tg/station history?
At this point, all you've got to do to play as a lich and have admin protection & clearance to extend a round out for hours is to stick to medbay and you're practically set for the entire round.

palpatine213 wrote:
Oldman Robustin wrote: REQUIRE BOMBS TO KILL
They don't REQUIRE bombs, and they certainly don't fucking require MAXCAPS. There are other ways to kill them.

List all the ways one can gib another player as a non antag for future reference, please. I'd hate to get banned for attempting to take out a slaughter demon toting antag that essentially turns a round into an extended murderfest.

Post by **lumipharon** » Sun Oct 25, 2015 4:55 am #129210

Unless the lich is dumb, the odds of him getting finished without resorting to some sort of explosives is about 0.1% (that chance being the singulo getting loose and just eating the entire station)

Like seriously, hide phylactery in space/inside a battery in an apc/inside a book on a shelf in the library/etc, and wait out your respawn timer before goin back in, and there's simply no way to beat them without explosives.
And banning based him for not using obviously OOC information that the round won't end because of a slaughter demon is inconsistant as fuck.

Either the bombing a dangerous wizard (and yes, releasling 3 slaughter demons very much makes you dangerous) with some collateral damage is ok or not. The round ending shouldn't factor into that.

Incomptinence · Sun Oct 25, 2015 5:08 am

The demons eating the lich prevents it being gibbed?

With a surviving demon phasing around waiting to kill and eat the lich even if the crew got him I don't see how else this would have ended.

Wyzack · Post by **Wyzack** » Sun Oct 25, 2015 5:29 am #129218

Is banning Oldman for a shitty reason a rite of passage now?

daman997 · Post by **daman997** » Sun Oct 25, 2015 5:35 am #129222

surviving demon here, I feel good about myself now :^)

John_Oxford · Post by **John_Oxford** » Sun Oct 25, 2015 5:49 am #129227

I can't even. This has gone way to fucking far not to have a bit of oxford thrown into the mix.

I'll keep it tidy, as to justify not getting FNR banned [again] and posting in a ban appeal.

You better fucking read it to, i spent 2 hours typing this shit out.

Spoiler:

lollerderby wrote:The wizard DISARMED a chemist and shot him with itching powder, he had no weapons except the syringe gun he had just stolen, he had no offensive spells, he was not enough of a threat to justify detonating a MAXCAP in MEDBAY and rendering one of the most highly trafficked areas on the station inhabitable as well as killing multiple innocents who were in no real danger.

Yes you should have some idea how dangerous the person/thing you're suicide bombing is before you BLOW UP A MEDBAY FULL OF INNOCENTS TO KILL IT.

I'm surprised you FNR'd this after I very leniently only banned you for four days, appeal denied.

Oldman had no possible way of knowing a wizard, whom of which is a enemy of the corperation, whom of which has a OOC license to kill any and everyone on the station without facing consiquences [see: ban] was firing itching powder out of a syringe gun.

Oldman had no possible way of knowing he had only a syringe gun, or any way of knowing he had no offensive spells.

He infact, was a very large threat to everyone around him, and very much so could have killed both the chemists, and oldman himself, had he not acted apon the wizard in the way that he did. It was a completely justifable act to do what he did. And no, this does NOT render "one of the most highly trafficked areas on the station inhabitable", You are prefectly capable of spending 20+ seconds in space without going into crit, and jumping across the hall would take less than 3. Thats not considering other modifiers such as firesuits/jackets/ingested renegants

The "multiple innocents who were in no real danger" where in LOADS of real danger. Simplying being next to someone who can kill you without reprocussions (see: antag) is a extreme danger. Killing said antag, and the innocents along with it is a justifyable act, as oldman had no way to know that it wouldn't have ended the round.

-

lollerderby wrote:
Amelius wrote:
lollerderby wrote:
-snip-
Yes, you should. If no one has died to the wizard himself because he has no weapons or offensive spells then suicide bombing him and taking out a room full of people as well as a major part of the station is right out. You do not serve enough of a good in eliminating him as a threat to justify all the collateral.

-snip-
Okay, go maxcap bomb a blob that's down to just a core with half a dozen people welding it down and see how that works out for you.

-snip-
If you end the round with the explosion it's overlooked because the round is over and so any collateral damage is pretty much irrelevant, but he failed to end the round even though he killed the wizard because there were other antagonists active that kept the round going.

Oldman had plenty of justification, he had no way to know that it was not going to end the round, or no clear indicatior that it would do otherwise. He had a open oppurtunity to kill a wizard, who spawned not one, not two, but three slaughter demons.

Why would it matter if you maxcapped a blob core, acording to your logic, it wouldn't matter, because the round would have ended anyways.

Oldman once again, had no possible way to know that killing the wizard wouldn't end the round, banning him for his ignorance violates the admin code of conduct [as you referenced before, not being a rule lawyer, you started it] [SEE EXCERPT IN ITALICS BELOW] Expecting someone to know something that they wouldn't know, then banning them based on information they didn't know at the time is literally fucking stupid.

Always try to consider what you'd have done in the players place. They don't have the luxury of piecing it together from attack logs, infinite time to make a decision, knowing every antag, etc. They'll act on incomplete information, they'll act on emotion. Don't judge them vs. perfect actions, but based on reasonable ones in their place.

-

lollerderby wrote:
Oldman Robustin wrote:-snip
I don't blame you for not knowing what was in the syringe gun, but I find it hard to believe that there was any reason to consider him a massive threat, I didn't see anyone in the logs yelling about him killing people or personally doing any harm, in fact you had a hug-off with him.

-snip-
Honestly, I'm not sure. Mulligan is shit and I have no idea how it works.

-snip-
If a wizard is very dangerous sometimes the good of killing him outweighs the bad of collateral, but that was certainly not the case here, you were much more damaging to the station and the crew then the wizard himself by far.

Anyone who has a license to kill everyone and anyone is a MASSIVE threat to everyone around them. Valid hunting, be it a shit activity to conduct, insures none of the crew are at risk. The simple fact that he is a antagonist puts him under the assumption that he is, infact, going to kill people, if he hasen't already. Thats what antagonists do. The fact that he had a hug off with him is complete irrelevant, bi-polar people are dangerous, their attitutudes towards the people around them can change at a moments notice, esspessially over a 2d spessman game.

If you have no idea how mulligan works, why would you ban someone if they didn't either. Once again, violation of admin code of conduct, that once again, you referenced to. Banning someone for something you aren't completely informed about is a pretty shitty thing, more so when its coming from a headmin. [SEE EXCERPT]

Don't be a hypocrite. If you're doing something you'd normally ban someone for doing, you're breaking this.

One again, why would it matter if the current case affects the station afterwards, he had absolutely no way of knowing if it was going to end the round or not, and based on previous experiences, he acted as if it was, he was wrong, and you banned him for it. This breaks two of the admin rules in the admin code of conduct. [SEE EXCERPT]

Bans are either to teach a lesson, punish malicious behavior, or remove shitty players from the community. Banning for mistakes doesn't really serve any of these purposes (an honest mistake can be explained and in the future avoided without having the players experience ruined with a ban).

Always try to consider what you'd have done in the players place. They don't have the luxury of piecing it together from attack logs, infinite time to make a decision, knowing every antag, etc. They'll act on incomplete information, they'll act on emotion. Don't judge them vs. perfect actions, but based on reasonable ones in their place.

-

lollerderby wrote:
Oldman Robustin wrote:
-snip-
-snip-
No one is forcing you to make a maxcap and fucking blow up a medbay full of people. This is the risk you take, if there had been no slaughter demons, mulligan, or anything of the sort involved and you tried to suicide bomb the wizard and missed you'd still be banned.

-snip
Maybe if you don't know that much about the situation you shouldn't leap into it with a primed maxcap bomb.

Your over exagerating this quite a bit, he didn't kill a medbay full of people, acording to you, he killed two chemists and the wizard. He had no possible way to know that there was a risk involved, he believed based on prior knowledge that killing the wizard would end the round. Its completely irrelevant to say "what if this happened". Because it didn't, he didn't miss, and slaughter deamons, mulligan, and anything of the sort are infact involved, saying otherwise is extremely arrogant coming from a headmin.

But neither did you, you have no idea how mulligan even works, but yet you banned someone for it. Thats extremely fucking piss poor. Not to mention it breaks the admin CoC [SEE EXCERPT]

Always try to consider what you'd have done in the players place. They don't have the luxury of piecing it together from attack logs, infinite time to make a decision, knowing every antag, etc. They'll act on incomplete information, they'll act on emotion. Don't judge them vs. perfect actions, but based on reasonable ones in their place.

Oldman Robustin · Sun Oct 25, 2015 6:42 am

Zilenan91 wrote:Oldman blobs have been bomb immune literally for months. How have you not known this. Also wouldn't it be wise to actually wait more than ten minutes to have passed to appeal something that destroyed an entire department, killed a bunch of people, and made it very hard for people to get to the escape wing?

Because contrary to memes I don't use bombs that much. Blobs aren't that common either, at least blobs that require bombs to shut down.

Oldman Robustin wrote:
palpatine213 wrote:
Oldman Robustin wrote: REQUIRE BOMBS TO KILL
They don't REQUIRE bombs, and they certainly don't fucking require MAXCAPS. There are other ways to kill them.
Ok I've hidden my phylactery in some "secret" maint room or deep space like 99% of other liches.

When I revive I just chill for a bit to make sure I can revive before someone drags me to chapel/kitchen.

You have to kill me to stop me from attacking the crew. How do you do it without bombs?

Don't forget I'm immune to chems and will constantly jaunt around too!

Still waiting for an answer to this one. As far as I'm concerned, Lumi is right, there's a .01% chance of you killing a competent Lich without using explosives to instantly gib it. The fact there are admins in this thread who don't even realize that gibbing is capable of preventing resurrection is just silly. And yea the slaughter demon was eating the wizard's body (at least once) which allowed it to freely resurrect without the risk of gibbing/incineration.

This whole scenario just feels idiotic. I'd be half tempted to do this just to see if I can ban everyone willing to bomb wizards on this server... at least until adminbus gets its shit together. Bonus points for using apprentices instead of demons to enhance the confusion surrounding who's causing the mass-carnage. OH YOU BOMBED THE WIZARD-LICH INSTEAD OF HIS HOSTILE APPRENTICES, NJOY UR BEN :^)

Stickymayhem · Sun Oct 25, 2015 7:58 am

This ban is dumb and a prime example of excessive rules bogging the game down.

It used to not matter that the game was unbalanced or not so well designed or the code wasn't perfect because you could smooth over the cracks using the games own mechanics.

How is any player with the information and options they have access to able to enjoy themselves anymore. Does everyone just get a turn being the immortal meming jackass for an hour with no counter play?

Mulligan is retarded and shouldn't factor into this anymore. At least something Fucking happened that round. It's gotten to the point that the only time a round has anything interesting happen it breaks the rules.

He technically made a decision that follows the shitty restrictive rules we have. He's not in the wrong but the server is. The attitude is.

Now that gets you banned the vast majority of the time.

Fonedsky · Post by **Fonedsky** » Sun Oct 25, 2015 10:07 am #129275

Stickymayhem wrote:This ban is dumb and a prime example of excessive rules bogging the game down.

It used to not matter that the game was unbalanced or not so well designed or the code wasn't perfect because you could smooth over the cracks using the games own mechanics.

How is any player with the information and options they have access to able to enjoy themselves anymore. Does everyone just get a turn being the immortal meming jackass for an hour with no counter play?

Mulligan is retarded and shouldn't factor into this anymore. At least something Fucking happened that round. It's gotten to the point that the only time a round has anything interesting happen it breaks the rules.

He technically made a decision that follows the shitty restrictive rules we have. He's not in the wrong but the server is. The attitude is.

Now that gets you banned the vast majority of the time.

Wiznerd here. Since my target suicided, I decided to screw around with the crew and get myself in dangerous situations, then after a while head to medbay fill a syringe full of chloral and do madman wizmeme surgery.

Honestly, I don't care if he's unbanned or not. Those who spend hours making a bomb to kill one guy (justified, one powerful guy) are very amusing. SS13 is wonderful like that.

onleavedontatme · Sun Oct 25, 2015 10:25 am

Turning medbay into a crater to kill a spooky skeleton is the kind of silly shit that attracted me to this game.

Also yeah Lich isn't really killable by normal methods.

Bombing an almost dead blob isn't really comparable because the lack of danger the blob poses is quickly/easily/conveyed to the player. You can see its gonna die soon anyway.

The endlessly respawning evil skeleton being "friendly" after releasing avatars of murderboner is not something thats so easily figured out and is in fact completely counter intuitive.

firecage · Post by **firecage** » Sun Oct 25, 2015 10:37 am #129285

Kor. I think it may be due to one person always/repeatedly using max cap bombs while toeing the line of the rules for any threat, even getting gulagged.

Ricotez · Post by **Ricotez** » Sun Oct 25, 2015 11:47 am #129306

I thought the rule regarding bombing the wizard is this:

did you kill the wizard? ok good
did you not kill the wizard? banned

it's a risk you take but if you succesfully kill the wizard the collateral damage is waived

of course the policy might've changed since the last time someone explained it to me

Amelius · Post by **Amelius** » Sun Oct 25, 2015 2:43 pm #129339

Stickymayhem wrote:This ban is dumb and a prime example of excessive rules bogging the game down.

It used to not matter that the game was unbalanced or not so well designed or the code wasn't perfect because you could smooth over the cracks using the games own mechanics.

How is any player with the information and options they have access to able to enjoy themselves anymore. Does everyone just get a turn being the immortal meming jackass for an hour with no counter play?

Mulligan is retarded and shouldn't factor into this anymore. At least something Fucking happened that round. It's gotten to the point that the only time a round has anything interesting happen it breaks the rules.

He technically made a decision that follows the shitty restrictive rules we have. He's not in the wrong but the server is. The attitude is.

Now that gets you banned the vast majority of the time.

This. Even shit which used to be totally clear-cut is now grey-area now. For instance, I got bwoinked for lasering a guy as the Captain, who was next to a conversion rune in maintenance when all hell broke loose, and this was recently after two-to-convert (rev with magic) was a thing. It was short-lasting, but I never should have been even remotely bwoinked in the first place.

I doubt you can gun down everyone non-implanted sans heads in the halls 10-15 minutes into your average rev round like folks used to. There's a reason revs usually win, now when it used to be split 50/50 down the middle, despite no real gameplay change influencing the balance of the mode to that extent - sec and heads don't pre-emptively attack people with lethals early-midgame in a mode where there are three guys with instant, melee conversions and everyone is converted anyways by midgame, simply being afraid of getting banned. The result is that sec and the heads have to play reactively without implants, and with implants they have to try to apprehend people alive until guilt is proven. Ordinarily this would be perfectly fine, but rev was always an exception to normal rules and rounds, making it the best stress relief - 'kill-or-be-killed', essentially.

Also, it's impossible for the mode to function when the revs know who they can and cannot kill, and the heads/sec do not. It functioned beforehand since we had lower rules and it was viable to just shoot everyone. But now you have an entity several times larger than security+heads combined, that only need ambush a single secman in the halls with water/soap/stunprods/even toolboxes, to turn that advantage into something ridiculous.

Tsaricide · Post by **Tsaricide** » Sun Oct 25, 2015 2:57 pm #129346

>Maxcapped bombed medbay as a non-antagonist to kill a harmless wizard with the spells ethereal jaunt and RISE, several innocents died as collateral damage and medbay and the bar area were totally devastated. The wizard was not personally enough of a threat to justify this.

>It's a lich
>He unleashed 3 blood demons
>Harmless wizard

And for those admins complaining it was max cap and not anything less, that just lowers the chances of actually gibbing the wizard and defeats the whole purpose of even using a bomb.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Sun Oct 25, 2015 3:03 pm #129347

The gibbing range of a bomb is really damn low to begin with, anything less than a Maxcap means your wasting a bomb, sure it'll kill the Lich Wizard but it won't gib it. As the title of this thread says, this is a shitty ban in all respects. The banning admin makes a lot of assumptions and presumes Oldman has OOC information which he is either unaware off or is impossible to ascertain in his position. Not to mention the admin fails to understand that Oldman was under a very life threatening situation, with two or three Slaughter Demons slaughtering the crew, it would only have been a matter of time until one of them found Oldman.

Oldman enters medbay, see's two dead/stunned chemists and a Wizard firing a syringe gun at them. Explain to me how do you expect anyone to know that not only did this Wizard somehow stun both of the chemists in hand to hand combat, but also his syringes were non-lethal/whatever it was?

When has a Wizard ever tried to hand fist someone in melee when he has a plethora of offensive spells which they use 99.99% of the time?

To reiterate, this is a shit ban all around. But it does bring up the good point of the position of bombs and how changes to the game, such as Mulligan and Lich, have muddled around with how bombs function from a OOC perspective.

Wyzack · Post by **Wyzack** » Sun Oct 25, 2015 3:10 pm #129348

I realize that Oldman bans have become this kind of weird community platform for discussing policy and shit but god damn there has been such a trend of moving towards nanny moderation it is fucking insane. The other day a guy got banned for handing out the armory. No one was harmed as a result, the admin just decided that was the wrong way to play the game so bannu. Low rules was a hit, so why are OOC consequences being used to control every aspect of the game?

Davidchan · Post by **Davidchan** » Sun Oct 25, 2015 3:56 pm #129365

These ban is... well shit. We can get banned now for getting valids for salads because of OOC/Meta knowledge we aren't allowed to know? Are we not allowed to shoot known changlings apart now too because they don't have an armblade or emp screech? That's exactly what the gist of this sounds like, valids are only valid if we are able to psychically know if they choosen specifically lethal powers or items? And how is utilizing the feasable method to remove a lich from play bannable now?

Krutchen · Post by **Krutchen** » Sun Oct 25, 2015 4:27 pm #129376

Krutchen wrote:
palpatine213 wrote:
Oldman Robustin wrote: REQUIRE BOMBS TO KILL
They don't REQUIRE bombs, and they certainly don't fucking require MAXCAPS. There are other ways to kill them.
List all the ways one can gib another player as a non antag for future reference, please. I'd hate to get banned for attempting to take out a slaughter demon toting antag that essentially turns a round into an extended murderfest.

So is Shadowlight going to respond to me & Oldman about what other ways one can deal with a Lich, or is he just going to be Shitposting in FNR threads as usual?

Zilenan91 · Post by **Zilenan91** » Sun Oct 25, 2015 5:16 pm #129393

Perhaps the problem is that if it was anyone else who bombed the wizard, it would've been fine. I mean, Oldman has been banned like nine times for bombing as a non-antag, and at this point, he should've realized it's just not okay in 99% of situations, and bombing a major hallway of the station, medbay and the bar, is also not okay.

Besides, it's just four days. Suck it up.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Sun Oct 25, 2015 5:25 pm #129398

Zilenan91 wrote:Perhaps the problem is that if it was anyone else who bombed the wizard, it would've been fine. I mean, Oldman has been banned like nine times for bombing as a non-antag, and at this point, he should've realized it's just not okay in 99% of situations, and bombing a major hallway of the station, medbay and the bar, is also not okay.

Besides, it's just four days. Suck it up.

So your admitting that the only reason Oldman should be banned is because he's Oldman, and that if anyone else had used the bomb then it would have been fine?

Personally I don't give two shits about people's play habits for the most part. But in this situation Oldman was clearly in the right to use the bomb in this particular scenario.

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Sun Oct 25, 2015 5:29 pm #129402

Steelpoint wrote:So your admitting that the only reason Oldman should be banned is because he's Oldman, and that if anyone else had used the bomb then it would have been fine?

Personally I don't give two shits about people's play habits for the most part. But in this situation Oldman was clearly in the right to use the bomb in this particular scenario.

It sounds more like people who continually do a thing will be put under more scrutiny for doing that thing.

Incoming · Post by **Incoming** » Sun Oct 25, 2015 5:48 pm #129409

Mechanics clarifications:

Lichs stay dead when either their item or their body is destroyed before rising. https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/12598 will help make destroying the item a more realistic option for crew, but if a lich is careful with his cooldowns then yeah, a bomb is one of the few effective ways to be absolutely sure. One of the other ways is to successfully capture a wizard alive and then burn it without killing it. This is amazingly hard to do.

To keep a round from ending the moment a lich dies for the first time the lich spell will turn off the ability of the round to end on wizard's death when it's first used. This is why bombing a lich will actually NEVER end a round immediately. This is shitty coding and entirely my fault and I will fix it shortly.

tl;dr Liches are powerful and hard to kill if they abuse the resurrection timer mechanics, Oldman did nothing wrong except assume that the wizard was a huge threat, which to be fair is usually a fairly safe assumption.

Edit: fix is now in the pull

Tornadium · Post by **Tornadium** » Sun Oct 25, 2015 6:58 pm #129432

Really?

He uses the only counter to lich, is successful and gets banned for it?

Oldman Robustin · Sun Oct 25, 2015 8:10 pm

Still waiting for that response on how we're supposed to deal with Liches without resorting to bombs. Shadowlight if you're going to post shit like that you better back it up.

As for "you should know better", that's precisely why I'm posting about all this shit. I *DID* know better, I thought I understood the contours of this game's bomb policy and that's how I've been bombing for so long (as a nonantag) without getting benned for it.

Two recent episodes, each shitty in their own unique way, have brought to a forefront how impossibly inscrutable our bomb policy is. With all the ahelp conversations, the bomb policy threads, etc. I've made and still not gotten an answer that lets me understand when bombing is appropriate, you can't act like my prior run-in's with the adminbus are a mark against me. Give me a clear understanding of where the damn line is before you accuse me of "toe'ing it". Putting in stuff like RISE! and Timestop and then aggressively banning non-antag bombers is just a recipe for bullshit.

My current plan for future bombs is to just get pre-authorization from admins every single time. I'm sure a few admins are nodding along with this thinking "GREAT!", but I hope most of you realize that if an intelligent veteran player who's no stranger to bombs can't reliably decipher when it's going to be bannable, and OOC communication becomes mandatory for every bomb use, we've gone way too far in the direction of regulating player behavior.

Shadowlight213 · Mon Oct 26, 2015 12:22 am

I'm on my phone, but you've started fucking screaming so what the hell.

As for killing the lich, sure if you see gibbing as the only way to kill the lich then you're limited in what you can do. However, there's another way to do it, that it seems no one has figured out.
Call the shuttle.
Seriously, kill the lich, call the shuttle, decon the consoles. If he comes back, kill it again. Each time he dies, the timer before he can revive goes up. Once he's down, but hasnt revived yet, use a smaller bomb or try dragging him to the gibber/cremator.
If he just decides to wait out the revive cooldown hiding, then you've bought more time for the shuttle to come. I know you'll yell about how this is retarded or something, but it just shows how rp is dead, and people care more about killing the antag than getting the crew out alive.

Also, Oldman quit jumping back and forth on the whole bombing the antag thing. When we talked about the blob bomb ban you said that the whole you didn't kill the antag with the bomb you get banned thing was stupid. But now you're screaming that it's all ok because you killed the antag. Make up your mind.

Wyzack · Post by **Wyzack** » Mon Oct 26, 2015 12:26 am #129501

I think his point was that it is a dumb rule, but it is still a rule. He gets bans whether he applies the bombs according to established precedent or not

Stickymayhem · Mon Oct 26, 2015 1:02 am

Shadow light you don't need to defend a shit rule if you think it's shit.

People aren't annoyed that you did something wrong, they're annoyed that something wrong is the norm. I probably could have done the same a few months ago.

If you think the rule is worth fighting for go for it though.

Krutchen · Post by **Krutchen** » Mon Oct 26, 2015 1:08 am #129511

palpatine213 wrote:I'm on my phone, but you've started fucking screaming so what the hell.

As for killing the lich, sure if you see gibbing as the only way to kill the lich then you're limited in what you can do. However, there's another way to do it, that it seems no one has figured out.
Call the shuttle.
Seriously, kill the lich, call the shuttle, decon the consoles. If he comes back, kill it again. Each time he dies, the timer before he can revive goes up. Once he's down, but hasnt revived yet, use a smaller bomb or try dragging him to the gibber/cremator.
If he just decides to wait out the revive cooldown hiding, then you've bought more time for the shuttle to come. I know you'll yell about how this is retarded or something, but it just shows how rp is dead, and people care more about killing the antag than getting the crew out alive.

Also, Oldman quit jumping back and forth on the whole bombing the antag thing. When we talked about the blob bomb ban you said that the whole you didn't kill the antag with the bomb you get banned thing was stupid. But now you're screaming that it's all ok because you killed the antag. Make up your mind.

You can gib, or you can go on a hunt through maint for a single item on the entire station. Did you ever play Nuke ops before Pinpointers were created? Also, Do you really think any Lich that's able to cause problems is going to just sit back and let the crew get on the shuttle? You know, the type of WIZARD who not only can have extremely dangerous spells, but also the ability to REVIVE HIMSELF over and over again, so that even if he fails to recall it once, unless you're high tailing it to the kitchen with his corpse in tow (While you're likely bleeding out from the variety of magical fuckery he's throwing your way, and quite possibly dealing with a Slaughter demon or two thrusting their murder boner into your every orifice), he'll be right back on your ass with full health and knowledge of exactly who is left and what kind of fight they can put up.

Shadowlight213 · Mon Oct 26, 2015 2:43 am

A wizard using information from death as a lich rather than using the scrying orb is as bannable as a ling doing that.