[SubtleGraces] Psyentific - Cargo Jobban

[Psyentific]

Byond account and character name: Psyentific, Janet Williams
Banning admin: SubtleGraces
Ban reason and length: 1-week jobban, Cargo Technician and Quartermaster -- "Attacked and demoted the QM with a shotgun for not running Cargobay as they'd like." (E/N: It was a Detective Revolver, not a shotgun. Very big difference.)
Time ban was placed (including time zone): 2014-05-23 at 16:48 by SubtleGraces (E/N: This is twelve hours after the incident in question)

Your side of the story: The QM had an empty autolathe, two disassembled PAs sitting on his mail room conveyor, and (I believe) a warehouse full of crates at ~1hr in and ~30m on station. Unacceptable. Shameful. The autolathe is one of the core components of Cargo, alongside the supply shuttle console - To neglect it like this tells me that you have no idea what you're doing. To have something as important as a particle accelerator sitting disassembled in your mail room and have no idea it's there only serves to reinforce that, especially when that very same particle accelerator is reported missing/stolen - The QM ought to be making regular checks of the mail room; What if someone flushes an emag? A body? During the course of my faffing around as an Assistant (Stole two PAs and convinced the CE it was gnomes, worth it), I noticed that the QM was being very bad at his job. As an all-access assistant, I took it upon myself to demote him to Cargo Tech, and tell him exactly why I was doing this. I'd like to note that Cargo Tech and Quartermaster have exactly the same access levels, right down to Cargo Techs having QM Office access, so it was an ineffectual demotion.

Why you think you should be unbanned:
At no point did I escalate to lethal force (Detvolvers are non-lethal >:I), and, while my actions in-round were greytide as fuck (Steal TWO PAs, how many people get to brag about that, c'mon), the only thing wrong I did involving Cargo was demoting the Quartermaster. At no point did I use or misuse Cargo assets, at no point did I use Cargo to grief, and at no point did I stir up trouble using Supply. I feel that a cargo jobban is completely unjustified; To make a comparison, it'd be like jobbanning me from Chemist for demoting the chemist for making drugs and nothing but. Jobbanning me from Cargo for this just doesn't make sense, no matter how I look at it; If you're going to apply a jobban at all, it ought to be Command.

I'm also a bit curious why the jobban was applied almost twelve hours after the original ban.

Edit: Updooted with relevant admin/reason/story. Thanks Pandorsanic!

Edit2:
Original FNR text:
I main Cargo and off Sec, and I make it a point to try and be good (Or at least not shit) at whatever role I'm playing, whenever I play. My last contact with an administrator was with SubtleGraces on Friday(?) night, where I picked up a weekend ban - "Attacked and demoted a QM for "doing a bad job"; meanwhile they, as an assistant, are stealing the PA and greytiding." - While I agree that that was a very iffy thing to do (worthit), I think I served my punishment over that weekend ban, and I'm almost certain that a Cargo jobban was not applied alongside. If it was, I can't see the reason why. I'm not a problem player (anymore), I'm very rarely on the recieving end of A-helps, and I generally try and keep my nose clean and stay out of trouble. Recieving a jobban from my main department is a bit of a shock to me, especially since I've had no notification of this, no ban request thread, no admin PMs, no cargo-related misdemeanors, or really anything that would warrant a jobban.

I can honestly say that I've got no idea why I'm cargo jobbanned. Can someone check my player notes or the ban record and see who issued this and why? If you are the person who issued this, can you please reply? I don't like being banned 4noraisin, especially not from my favorite job on station. If I knew why I was banned, I could make a proper appeal, but as-is this kinda stinks

[Pandarsenic]

Data: 2880 minutes (2-day) game ban -- 2014-05-23 at 04:57 by SubtleGraces
"Attacked and demoted a QM for "doing a bad job" meanwhile they, as an assistant, are stealing the PA and greytiding. Just no."

10080 minutes (1-week) jobban, Cargo Technician and Quartermaster -- 2014-05-23 at 16:48 by SubtleGraces
"Attacked and demoted the QM with a shotgun for not running Cargobay as they'd like."

[Subtle]

Well, let me start off by saying that I apologize for taking a little while to get to your appeal. (Human beings need sleep, you know)

After applying the two-day ban for everything that happened with the QM I was approached by another admin regarding the incident, that combined with other opinions I'd collected after the ban lead me to a job-ban from cargo. If I'd gotten the weapon involved wrong, alright, that's my mistake and perhaps it puts a fault in the entire decision. It doesn't have much to do with what actually happened though, so I'll do my best to focus on the logic behind this decision.

Quite frankly if the mere sight of someone running the cargobay inefficiently translates to cause for you, as an assistant, to attack and demote them I don't think you should be in charge of it. This is about the only form of ban I could imagine actually causing you some distress and judging by this reaction it seems that was the correct choice. As I said in adminhelps I don't care just how bad it was. They're playing a game same as you and doesn't deserve to have their fun ruined because you don't like the way they go about doing things. For this week at least you'll just have to endure other styles of cargo-play.

I will not entertain the premise that a newer or not-as-skilled player deserves to be relieved of their position for thinly-veiled OOC reasons. End of story.

[Psyentific]

I was approached by another admin regarding the incident, that combined with other opinions I'd collected after the ban lead me to a job-ban from cargo.

Can I ask who that admin was and what those opinions were? Chatlogs, ideally.

I'd also like to comment that, in current NT Code, the Cargo Tech and Quartermaster have the same access level, right down to the QM's Office - There is literally no difference between the two. I certainly made him mad, and it's somewhat flattering that I've got a reputation, but I purposely 'demoted' him to Cargo Tech (instead of Assistant) because I felt that was appropriate for his level of competence while allowing him to remain in the round doing what he wanted to do. If you're going to sign up for a head or demi-head position, you're expected to be good at your job; If you aren't good at a department, you ought to have the presence of mind not to lead that department, skeleton crew or not.

Really, though, I'm more distressed by the fact that I recieved no notification of the ban, rather than that it was applied at all. Now that I know who, what, why, and how long, I can suck it up. It's that it snuck up on me out of the blue, with no indication of reason or length, that got me.

I will not entertain the premise that a newer or not-as-skilled player deserves to be relieved of their position for thinly-veiled OOC reasons. End of story.

If you're going to sign up for a head or demi-head position, you're expected to be good at your job; If you aren't good at a department, you ought to have the presence of mind not to lead that department, skeleton crew or not. If the chief engineer cannot patch a hull breach, he never should've been the chief engineer in the first place, and he ought to expect demotion. This holds across almost all jobs - Incompetence is grounds for demotion if somebody cares enough to actually do it.

I'm also curious why you think this is an OOC issue - I demoted a QM to CT for being bad at his job, plain as that. This would've stayed completely in-character if admins weren't summoned.

[Brotemis]

I agree with both bans on this. I make it no secret I dislike guncargo and I still remember you claiming you were going to preemptively jobban evade because you didn't like that decision. How much that still has bearing today is evident because of you attacking a quarter master and denoting them as an assistant.

Firstly you have no right or authority to do so. Secondly, were it anyone else, it would be considered random grief or greytiding likely. But since it's you and we know your ooc motivation, history plays a larger part.

I would simply suggest you deal with the fact that there will be less effective people in cargo and that things will not always go your way and things will be out of your hands. That's the crux of playing with others.

[Subtle]

I've asked them to weigh in with their opinions because I don't make a habit of keeping IRC logs. Better from the horse's mouth as they say.

Hopefully we won't be left hanging in the wind there, but in the end the choice to apply this ban was mine.
Unless someone has an excellent reason for why the situation doesn't directly relate to cargobay and its workings I'm going to stand by it.

[Psyentific]

A'ight - Sorry, I assumed Brotemis was peanut gallerying. Our mutual dislike of each other and our play/admin styles isn't exactly a closely guarded secret. I kneejerked, my mistake.
I'm still a bit curious as to what you (and Brotemis) think my OOC motivation was - The only straw I can grasp here is that you think I was angry/bitter that he was the QM and I wasn't; Silly, considering that there were three open cargo tech slots with the exact same level of access and I opted for Assistant instead. I won't say I wasn't put off by him being bad at his job (esp. considering he was a QM not a CT), but there really wasn't anything more to it than that.

As for past history? Shrug. I play Cargo a lot - I've got a reputation for it, good and bad. Incompetence, especially in one-off or command positions is my pet peeve. If he's going to demonstrate that he's still learning the department, he ought to be a cargo tech, not a QM. I could apply the same arguement to Med/Sci/Sec/Engi, if I cared enough about the department to involve myself. This whole thing wouldn't have happened if he rolled Cargo Tech and appropriated the QM's jumpsuit.

[CreationPro]

See, this is you went wrong, Psyentific: you were an assistant but decided it's fine and dandy to be the acting captain and demote the QM for not playing the way you want him to, instead of, for example, transferring to a cargo tech and explaining him the gist of the job and it's quirks. As far as I could understand, the QM never provoked you, either. You, on the other hand, went around being a greyshit. Greytiding isn't something any of us like and we crack down on it.

For now, I agree with SG's decision on this one, unless you somehow demonstrate you're willing to change your playstyle to accommodate other players' experience.

[Antonkr]

Right, I was the admin (or well apparently one of the admins) that suggested subtle to add in a cargo jobban as well, simply due to the fact that you decided to be a complete asshole to a new player and tell them that the way they are running cargo is not the way to do it, and you decided to demote them, without having any authority to. Also

[00:17:26]SAY: Janet Williams/Psyentific : I'M NOT GOING TO SIT BY AND WATCH YOU MAKE A FUCKING MOCKERY OF MY CARGO BAY

[Psyentific]

A'ight, you guys have made your point. Lock it up?