[Brotemis] Lecherstein - silicon jobban appeal/complaint.

imblyings · Post by **imblyings** » Sat Jun 07, 2014 8:02 am #12014

template wrote:Byond account and character name: Lecherstein, Syndicate Edgeborg-666
Banning admin: Brotemis
Ban reason and length: roundstart meta as a borg, bolting down the captains office simply to "secure the disk" without orders. You're a borg, you dont care about this. You care about your laws, 10080 minutes
Time ban was placed (including time zone): 7 June 2014, 3:00PM ish, +0800 GMT. Logs provided.

Your side of the story: see below

Spoiler:

I spawn as a borg.
Teleport to bridge to move to robotics for a cell change.
Notice captains office doors and bridge doors are open.
Realize captain left their office without securing the nuke disk first thing in the round.
Make a bridge announcement saying the captain is a condom for not securing the disk, bolt the doors with the lights on and wait for the captain to come back.
Get adminpm'd.
He tells me not to meta and to unbolt.
I ask him exactly how I have meta'd and what law or policy I have broken.
He does not answer and continues to ask me to unbolt the door.
I tell him I have no IC reason to do so and ask again as to what law or policy I have broken.
He provides not a single iota of justification for his rule 0 ruling nor does he explain what I have apparently meta'd.
I concede anyway, by asking the captain to ask me to unbolt the door.
He takes offence to this for absolutely no reason.
I get banned.
He explains away a week-long silicon jobban as being justified by not following a completely arbitrary rule 0 demand from him, even though the door was unbolted before he banned me.

Why you think you should be unbanned: see below

The ban reason is faulty for one.

You have been jobbanned by brotemis from: pAI, AI, Cyborg.
The reason is: roundstart meta as a borg, bolting down the captains office simply to "secure the disk" without orders. You're a borg, you dont care about this. You care about your laws
This jobban will be lifted in 10080 minutes.

roundstart meta as a borg

It's not meta to secure the syndie disk, known for being a target of syndicates and even if it is meta, why is it meta for a borg to do it but not the captain. In case of accusations that I was meta'ing syndies, well no. If there are logs to check, you can see that I never touched the who/check manifest buttons. If not, you can see that I didn't bolt and turn bolt lights off, thus not screwing over any syndies with emags or the like. There is also no policy or ruling whatsoever in the history of ss13 that makes it an offence for a borg to lockdown the captains office after seeing that the nuke disk was not secured. AI's and borgs do this plenty of times, I've done this plenty of times, normally with the intention of giving it some security while a head of staff comes to secure the items.

bolting down the captains office simply to "secure the disk" without orders.

Is simply not an offence. There is no rule 0 precedent, no silicon law, no silicon law interpretation precedent, no policy, no policy intepretation precedent that makes it an offence for a borg to secure the disk without orders. To say otherwise is to either lie or make a rule 0 ruling on the spot.

You're a borg, you dont care about this. You care about your laws

Again, there is nothing saying borgs cannot care about the disk. Until Brotemis specifically points out something in writing where it says silicons cannot care about the disk, he can kindly take back everything he's said. Furthermore, it would be covered under Law one to secure the disk, especially if the captain hasn't secured it.

---

Brotemis repeatedly tells me to unbolt. I don't, seeing as his first complaint against me, that it was 'meta', was completely wrong. He continues to request me do something that makes literally no IC sense. I've done nothing wrong. In a concession to Brotemis, I attempt to get some IC raisining to quickly get the door open by asking the captain to ask me to unbolt the door and hopefully, for me, get them to notice the unsecured disk. Brotemis takes offence at this for some reason. I then get banned.

To reiterate.

I haven't broken a single robot law or server policy.
I disagreed with Brotemis's strange complaint and stranger request for me to do something. Which I did anyway, when I got the captain to ask me to unbolt the doors and secure the disk.
I then get jobbanned from silicons for 10080 minutes.

The jobbans should be completely thrown out on the basis of me not having broken a single silicon law. I will also be pursuing an admin complaint against Brotemis for their conduct.

edit- further appeal information.

Roundstart Bolting
Don't bolt genetics, toxins, robotics, the armory, or other departments at roundstart. While the insides of these areas may be harmful, it doesn't justify being a dick and preventing people from doing their jobs.

In case Brotemis tries to use this policy to deny this appeal, which was also never quoted in the jobban information,
- It was not a mass round-start bolting frenzy. It was justified by the captain not securing the disk.
- I was not a dick, as not a single person was dicked over.
- I did not prevent a single person from doing their jobs, I was actually doing someones job for them.

I will also go through the asimov laws, to prove I didn't break any of them.

-Law one.
No one was harmed by my actions nor was I unable to reasonably stop harm.
-Law two.
At no point did I disobey a single law 2 order.
-Law three.
I was not in any danger at any time, so I could not have broken it.

full logs here

Spoiler:

elyina · Post by **elyina** » Sat Jun 07, 2014 11:06 am #12050

I'm confused. Is this a ban appeal or a complaint? It's in the ban appeals forum, is titled as a complaint and is using the proper template of neither. You need to appeal before opening a complaint, edit this to include the template if that's what you want to do

imblyings · Post by **imblyings** » Sat Jun 07, 2014 12:56 pm #12069

there, done. It better follows the template and all required information has been provided.

I'm waiting on Brotemis to either apologize, remove any related notes and retract the ban or explain his rule 0 ruling so that I can understand better why I was banned.

Antonkr · Post by **Antonkr** » Sat Jun 07, 2014 2:45 pm #12079

To get this straight, the borg decides to bolt the captain's door which contains litterally the most dangerous item in the game, following law 1.

This is outright a simply a bad ban. When has knowing that the NUCLEAR AUTHENTICATION DISC is dangerous EVER been meta?

Brotemis · Post by **Brotemis** » Sat Jun 07, 2014 4:11 pm #12086

You are a borg and only care about your laws. Before you start in on how the nuke disk is the most dangerous weapon or has the potential for the most harm, I'm going to stop your argument right then and there because that is a dead end.

The singularity has the same potential. Bombs have the same potential. Robotics has the same potential to crank out death machines. Xenobiology exists only as potential harm to humans and should be locked down right?

There are rules governing what the AI can do or has to ignore (genetics radiating monkey humans, surgery being harmful/borging) and roundstart meta that cannot be done like bolting down areas like secure tech, EVA, the armory, etc.

The captain's office because of the nuclear disk is one of them. You weren't ordered to bolt the captain's office and when asked to unbolt and and move on, you refused and demanded to know why. You made the smarmy comment to the captain about the order and he even asked why his office was bolted.

The bottom line is that after being told to unbolt it and move on 3 times, you still wanted to argue, and it was at that time the jobban was applied. If you really wanted to make a complaint, follow the procedure to do so and unbolt the office, then make a complaint after the round is over. Your round is not ruined because you had to unbolt the office.

To anton, if we're going to play the law 1 game, we bolt half the station, which is expressly forbidden

Antonkr · Post by **Antonkr** » Sat Jun 07, 2014 4:22 pm #12088

I still disagree. Toxins and genetics have always been a special consideration as you listed, however this is quite different case from them both. Shutting down toxins and genetics hasn't been allowed, but the borg telling the captain to secure the disk, and bolting his office seems completely understandable in my eyes, seeing that the nuke disk is very dangerous.

The singularity has the same potential.
Bombs have the same potential.
Robotics has the same potential to crank out death machines.
Xenobiology exists only as potential harm to humans and should be locked down right?

All of these have IC reasons to exist, and OOC reasons to not be locked down. Singularity when safely contained produces power which decreases human harm. Bombs can be used to mine more efficiently and remove dangerous wildlife on the asteroid. Robotics can produce cyborgs, and bots which decrease harm done on the station. Xenobio can be used for production, but there is an ooc reason to not bolt it down as well.

The nuke disc has literally only one purpose, to authenticate a nuclear strike. The only purpose it exists for, is to be secured by the captain. It's very much understandable that the cyborg would want to secure the most dangerous item on the station, which has literally zero useful purpose besides destroying the station, and causing a shitton of harm. The borg was following it's laws by not ignoring an obvious potentially fatal mistake done by the captain.

imblyings · Post by **imblyings** » Sat Jun 07, 2014 5:18 pm #12096

I'll say this first, sticking to your guns is admirable but stupid when you're wrong.

You are a borg and only care about your laws.

Thank fuck I did not break a single law.

Before you start in on how the nuke disk is the most dangerous weapon or has the potential for the most harm, I'm going to stop your argument right then and there because that is a dead end.

Your time here as an admin might be at a dead end.

There are rules governing what the AI can do or has to ignore (genetics radiating monkey humans, surgery being harmful/borging) and roundstart meta that cannot be done like bolting down areas like secure tech, EVA, the armory, etc.

Rules you do not seem to understand, as I've addressed that rule already. Not only have I not dicked anyone over, I did not stop anyone from doing their job and indeed, I was helping someone do theirs. Roundstart meta? I've asked and given you so many chances to explain just how securing the nuke disk after the captain fails too is meta and you have been silent so far.

The captain's office because of the nuclear disk is one of them.

Show me a single ruling, rule or policy where the AI or a borg is not allowed to bolt down the captains office after seeing the captain run out without securing the disk. Go on, I'm waiting.

You weren't ordered to bolt the captain's office

Means literally nothing apart from the fact you seem to be fishing around for any justification to not retract your ban, tbh. Oh jesus, a borg bolted the captains office with the nuke disk in it. Call fucking 911, this deserves a weekban, how could the borg do such a horrendous thing.

and when asked to unbolt and and move on, you refused and demanded to know why.

>admin says something dumb in an adminhelp that isn't true
>demands I do something dumber IC with no justification

no shit, of course I refused and demanded to know why. Your behaviour then and now is extremely strange.

You made the smarmy comment to the captain about the order

Or maybe you were too mad to realize I wanted to settle this with a compromise that made sense IC while getting the nuke disk secured at the same time.

and he even asked why his office was bolted.

See, the context in which you say this makes me think you haven't even looked at the logs. The dear captain only ever asked when I pointed out.

The bottom line is that after being told to unbolt it and move on 3 times, you still wanted to argue

The bottom line is that you're a horrible liar. You said it was meta, you said this to me in your first adminpm. It clearly wasn't meta. I asked what you were going on about and I rightfully refused because you can't get some basic things right. And remember, I did unbolt the doors. You've really got no basis for your ban.

and it was at that time the jobban was applied.

For a reason that doesn't hold up and god forbid you then try justifying a weekban for a player not doing what you told them to do, even when it made no sense.

Your round is not ruined because you had to unbolt the office.

No.

No, you're fucking wrong. My round wasn't ruined because I had to unbolt an office (which I did anyway). My round was ruined because some uppity admin decided to make a completely shit rule 0 ruling, power trip about it and then have the audacity to ban someone for questioning why.

if we're going to play the law 1 game

Show me how getting the nuke disk secured is in any way similar to stopping someone from doing their job in genetics, toxins or getting into EVA. Oh wait you really can't, can you.

Alright, I'm waiting.

Show me a single ruling, rule or policy where the AI or a borg is not allowed to bolt down the captains office after seeing the captain run out without securing the disk.
Show me how getting the nuke disk secured is in any way similar to stopping someone from doing their job in genetics, toxins or getting into EVA.

Pandarsenic · Post by **Pandarsenic** » Sat Jun 07, 2014 5:24 pm #12099

Bolting down and stopping people from using genetics and toxins is completely different from bolting down the captain's office and stopping people from using the nuclear authentication disk...? There's no meta, there's no powergaming, there's only a borg ensuring that the single most important thing the captain can do gets done.

There is literally no use to the Nuclear Authentication Disk except for authorizing the bomb, which is typically pretty harmful. There's nothing to DO with it except keep it out of people's hands.

He did nothing to actually lead to the requirement of him to unbolt the captain's office.

CreationPro · Post by **CreationPro** » Sat Jun 07, 2014 5:40 pm #12101

This one's a tough pickle.

I'll go ahead and point out the one particular point in which OP really DID make a mistake:

Brotemis wrote:-- Administrator private message --
Admin PM from-Brotemis: So yeah, unbolt the captains office. Last request

After that you should've stepped back and just unbolt the office, and THEN file an admin complaint. That would've left you without a ban that might be unjust, and still in the situation to stand your point.

Now, as for the situation itself, I'd say it falls under "don't bolt shit" rule, however it's a bit different, as the nuke disc currently has no other use but to blow the station up. On one hand, it certainly is an item only used for mass destruction. On the other hand, we don't let people get overzealous with securing it (like hiding it in AI core without knowing there are ops around, for gameplay improvement reasons.) It's not a time bomb that is INEVITABLY going to destroy everything, after all. And besides, a syndicate agent might need to steal it, since I believe it is an objective still, so I'd frown upon bolting it down without provocation.

imblyings · Post by **imblyings** » Sat Jun 07, 2014 5:51 pm #12103

I am curious as to why a player is obligated, under threat of a ban, to do something that makes no sense after being accused by an admin of doing something that they did not do. I am curious to know why a player is considered to have committed a mistake in this situation when the situation would not have happened if the admin hadn't sent the first adminpm.

I do not know how this came to be, I do not know why it is still like this and I do not like it. Setting a weekban for this, when players who kill other players as a non-antag get shorter bans, simply does not make any sense at all. Never mind the fact that the ban reason only mentions me being 'meta' and then some half-hearted somethings about me not being supposed to care about certain things.

On the other hand, we don't let people get overzealous with securing it..And besides, a syndicate agent might need to steal it, since I believe it is an objective still

Which is a fair point except,

The door bolt lights were on, intentionally, to draw the attention of the captain to their office when/if they came back. If I had wanted to secure it from traitors wanting it as a steal objective, I would have turned the bolt lights off to foil anybody emagging into the captain's office.

Nor was my main intention really to secure the nuke disk. It would have been nice if it was secured yes, but my main intention was to get the captain to do their job, thus the announcement pointing out the captain not having secured the disk.

It was never meant to be permanently bolted, as I'm fully aware of bolting down the captain's office permanently being a bad thing. This was solely to get the captain's attention, to get them to ask me to open the door. The doors would have been unbolted the moment I got the captain to do their job, which was what happened.

CreationPro · Post by **CreationPro** » Sat Jun 07, 2014 6:07 pm #12106

Well, I'm gonna pull up the same iffy excuse, but still a valid point: admins can make mistakes. They can be wrong, they can get pissed. Sometimes it's best to de-escalate the conflict yourself, which, in your case, could've been wise.

Back on point, making the captain do his job isn't really a borg's/AI's job (however it's anyone's at the same time), but yeah, the captain can and should secure the disk, as it's his only true duty. That's why I believe this one to be a tough case, I can't even say for sure if your actions are bad. They seem power-gamey to me, but that's about it - an impression.

imblyings · Post by **imblyings** » Sat Jun 07, 2014 6:22 pm #12111

I do need to counter by saying that not a single powergamer in the history of ss13 would ever entrust a nuke disk to a captain who ran off without securing the disk at roundstart and actually got themselves drunk before coming back while still requiring verbal prompts to secure (actually remember?) the disk.

Which is what I did.

CreationPro · Post by **CreationPro** » Sat Jun 07, 2014 7:21 pm #12130

Also a fair point. Unless something is untrue/missing, I believe this ban should be lifted.

Hibbles · Post by **Hibbles** » Sun Jun 08, 2014 5:42 am #12226

Sorry Brotemis, but this is several steps byond the pale. It is not metagaming to want to secure the item whose sole purpose is to detonate a nuclear bomb, and if the Captain has apparently failed in really his only ironclad absolutely must do this duty to secure...

Not to mention as a tangent that bolting down Secure Tech Storage is allowed, and I know that because I've been doing that every single round I've been AI for the past year+. Anything that can lead to subversion except, like, the RND room, yo.

I'm going to lift this immediately.

/tg/Station 13

[Brotemis] Lecherstein - silicon jobban appeal/complaint.

[Brotemis] Lecherstein - silicon jobban appeal/complaint.

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