Banned for delivering minor burns to suspected gangers.

[ComradeQueTheReborn]

Yo.

So i just got banned.

"You have been banned by saegrimr.
Reason: Turning around and attacking implanted crew after being deconverted and given sec huds, proceeds to rant in deadchat about how loyalty implants don't matter and some other garbage."

Obviously Saegrimr didn't actually read the logs and just took the deadchat salt as gospel and decided to ban me.

So i'm Prima gang. Walking around. I hear spray canning in maint. I take a look. I see the HoP standing next to a Diablo tag. He runs when he sees me. I announce over radio that HoP is Diablo, see tagging in Maint.

Fast forward 2 minutes. HoP stuns me. Drags me to Bridge. Cap cuffs me. They drag me to the armoury. They implant me (My assumption is to de-gang me from Prima and re-gang me as Diablo so they can dominate quciker) I get up. Welder fuel/Welder the HoP. Get lasered to death. End of. (Apparently the Captain at some point put HUD glasses on me. I didn't see this happen since everything went down in a matter of seconds) Captain has minor burns. HoP has "Major burns" But some of that came from being hit with Lasers from the Captain. For some reason neither of them use the Medkit that they're stood next too in the Brig OR the Medkit in the Bridge.

Fast forward a couple of minutes (I am of course long dead by this point with my corpse dumped in the corner of the Warden's office) For some reason the Captain and the HoP charge the Medbay (Again, my assumption at this point being to ovverun the other gangs with their superior fire power) Instead they both get dunked. Beaten to death. They IMMIDIATELY start spamming dead chat calling me a cunt. Blaming me for their getting dunkt and demanding that i be banned.

I'm pretty confused since i NEVER acted out of character and my behaviour was also DEALT with in-character. I fight my case a little in dead chat. Then get a ban message from saegrimr who from the looks of it just gave me a ban because it's easier than actually looking into it and doing his job.

I have logs if someone can remind me where we post these i will do so.

Cheers TEAM!!

[Saegrimr]

You should pay more attention next time. Also you'd logged after the first PM while I was still investigating so I just went ahead and dropped a dayban.
If you're in captivity, implanted, then equipped with sechuds, don't just jump up someones ass with a welder as soon as they uncuff you.

Lets just use your words.

[11:47:03]SAY: Ghost/Comrade Que : The only rule that applies here is "Rule one: Don't be a dick." I hurt you for an IC reason and get killed for it. That's an issue dealt with entirely IC.

Unfortunately for you, being a dick after getting converted in a conversion gamemode passes the whole "IC issue" line.

[ComradeQueTheReborn]

If you actually read the logs, you'd see there must be literally half a second between the HUD glasses being put on me and the fight starting. Ofcourse i wouldn't see one line of lower case blue text during a gang fight.

I didn't log but I was alt-tabbed i must have gotten' booted.

You don't seem to understand Rule One. Which is concerning given your position.

Being a dick in this situation would have been: AFTER i had gotten implanted, been released and made aware that neither the HoP nor the Captain were Gangers. Hunting them down and killing them anyway.

What ACTUALLY happened was that in the confusion of a conversion game mode where I was 95% certain the HoP was a gangster they got a little bit burnt. The Captain literally had "Minor burns" and the HoP got mostly fucked up by the Captain's attempts at lasering me. I acted entirely within Character and was dunkt for it. That's how SS13 goes. I didn't break any rules.

En fete, if we want to be super hugbox about it. You could make a case for banning the Captain for immediately jumping to lasering an implanted person to death when he had all the tools available to him to detain me non-lethally and explain the situation, he was in absolutely no danger. With a sec officer, and the HoP in the same room. The weapon that he used to kill me has a Disable/Stun setting and we know that he had handcuffs because he had just a moment ago removed them from me.

[Saegrimr]

Next time don't jump to them assumed valids.

Why the hell would a rival gang uncuff you BEFORE converting you anyway?
I can understand things being hectic but when you're completely subdued its not like you have a lot else to worry about.

[ComradeQueTheReborn]

Because converting stuns.

They probably felt that once I was Implanted I was no longer a threat.

You really think i was just looking for a valid hunt kill? Against two armed and armoured Heads in a locked office with a riot geared Sec Officer outside? I was just trying to escape. I ran for the disposals chute I just used the fire to delay the response. As evidenced by the fact that I touched them each once with the Welder. Rather than click spamming and landing 3 or 4 welder burns before the lasers came in.

[Saegrimr]

I'm really not getting your logic but okay. You fucked up and then smugged about it afterwards. Pay more attention next time. I'm not lifting this.

[ComradeQueTheReborn]

What exactly did I fuck up?

Again I delivered MINOR BURNS to somebody in an attempt to escape their custody. For this I am banned. "Smugged about it afterwards" What does this mean? All i ever did was defend my actions in Deadchat when the two who were killed 5 minutes after our encounter in an exchange that had absolutely nothing to do with me came in bitching saying it was....somehow...my fault.

You have a very poor understanding of the mechanics of this game. You also have a poor understanding of the rules you're supposed to be enforcing.

[Archie700]

HoP here.

The reason why I was in maint was because I was scouting for tags. Near roundstart, we had received info from the AI that there was vandalism in telecomms. Both of us went to check out. Sure enough, Diablo gang tag. While Captain Lucina (Krusvik) was still in telecomms investigating for spraying, I was checking maint for more tags. When I found out more gang tags in cargo and mining maint, you suddenly appeared and, instead of asking, shouted "HOP GANG!"

Since the person who sprayed them would have maint access in order to cover ground, I assumed you were making a false accusation in order to cover yourself. I decided to report my own findings directly to sec. While there, I was lasered with disablers by sec and Captain, due to your accusation. I was then loyalty implanted and they found out I was never ganged, let alone a gang leader.

I suited up with Sec HUDs, ordered you under arrest due to suspicion of being a gang, and then AI informed me that someone was breaking into my office and killing Ian. I decided to go in, and sure enough, you were there, killing Ian. I decided to telebaton you WITH HELP INTENT and bring you to sec, instead of critting your ass. On the way, I met up with the captain, who cuffed you. By this time, word has spread that I was gang.

We brought you to sec, and decided to implant you. First time, "forgotten their life of crime", ok you were gang. We did it a second time. Now you're loyal. We uncuff you, and spoke to you a bit about how the HoP wasn't a gang any longer if ever. Lucina even gave you sec HUDs to check.

At which point you immediately burn me with a welder. I was set on fire.

I don't know what exactly happened in the fight, but I remember Lucina being set on fire BY YOU and her having to laser you to death. Being set on fire is pretty lethal since you would continuously burn until death and rolling on the floor IS EFFECTIVELY A STUN. I remember being hit by stray lasers from Lucina. The AI ended up having to lock us down because we killed someone and it was asimov. We had to break out and convince the AI that we were attacked and promised to not cause more harm. I was about to upload a law with captain's input when I heard that she was being beaten to death in medbay. I and the chaplain went to rescue her and contain the threat, only to end up dying for our effort.

Now, I would like to ask a few questions:

1) If I was gang, why would I bring you to sec?

2) Why would I allow the captain, who starts with implants roundstart and I could CLEARLY SEE WAS IMPLANTED, to bring you to sec?

3) Why would I allow anyone, let alone a gang member, to be loyalty implanted? Twice, even!

4) Why would I not immediately capture the captain if I was gang? Her access was important and she was near me when I carried you to sec. Why would I not turn on her, telebaton her, and turn her over to my gang to be converted?

[ComradeQueTheReborn]

You've lied several times which is interesting since i have the logs right here.

There was no discussion. Neither you, nor the Captain said anything to me. Obviously you didn't kill me, you dominate faster from converting.

The fact that there is an argument over somebody getting burned in a conversion mode, is really so ridiculous. I can't believe how upset you were that you got minor burns from my welder. The amount of whining and complaining you did in dead chat and now this wall of text (60% of which is false information)

You're really not cut out for this game.

[Saegrimr]

You're really not cut out for this game.

I dunno man, he's not the one currently banned for not paying attention and jumping to conclusions.

[ComradeQueTheReborn]

You're really not cut out for this game.

I dunno man, he's not the one currently banned for not paying attention and jumping to conclusions.

Real quick. Can you point me to the section of the rules where it says "Not paying attention and jumping to conclusions" is bannable?

90% of how we identify antagonists in this game involves quickly assessing information and coming to a conclusion. Was it unreasonable to assume that somebody stood next to a Diablo gang tag in Maint 5 seconds after I heard it being sprayed and then running away without explanation when spotted was a gangster?

Is this enough information to straight murder them on the spot, without catching a ban? No.

Is it enough information to use force against them to avoid conversion? Yes.

I used minimal, non-lethal force akin to stunning with a stun prod in order to facilitate my escape. In what twisted alternate universe is that a bannable offense?

[Archie700]

Holy shit.

We were communicating through command chat, with the HoS and AI in earshot. At this point, we weren't 100% sure it's gangs, even though we found multiple gang tags and spraying was heard. We didn't want to jump the gun and scream GANGS IN STATION PEOPLE REPORT TO SEC!

YOU were the one who said flat out "HoP is a gang!". I assumed that the tagger had maint access. So, when I saw you, an assistant in maint shouting, there were three options:

1) You were actually an innocent civilian who just happened to be in the wrong place.

2) You were a gang member shouting to deflect attention to me

3) You were a shitter.

Since I didn't have proof, I ignored you, said that you MIGHT BE a gang through command chat, and proceeded to sec.

After I was implanted, I went back to the bridge and put down shutters to prevent break ins, where AI told me through command that someone was breaking into my office. When I asked AI to confirm, he said that that someone was killing Ian. HoP office. When I went there, I found you. With a dead Ian and broken windows. What was I supposed to do? Leave you alone while you greytide? I brought you up, but forgot that I shuttered the bridge. Just as I was about to turn back, the captain came in. The captain most likely assumed that I caught the criminal and cuffed you. I let her.

We then went to sec. Both the Captain and I were wearing sec HUDs, so we could see who was implanted and who was not. We go into armory, where there were implants. We implant you and this who shit happens. Lucina even tossed you a pair of huds to check me. And we did our best to descalate the situation. But you went all HOP IS GANG LYNCH HE and burned me.

The only reason why we got away with minor burns was because we were able to take you down quickly and extinguish ourselves on time. Had we not, we might have been left with severe burns or even fall into crit and die.

Me not being cut out? I accuse YOU of not being cut out. You had poor situational awareness (gang base in sec near roundstart? Really?) and tried to kill me to satisfy your validboner.

And really, your situation fails on all counts. If BOTH of us were gang, why would we drag you to sec and implant you with LOYALTY IMPLANTS ONCE, let alone twice. If we were on opposing sides, either the captain or I would ignore you as soon as we spotted that one of us did not have an implant and have a baton round ending with either one of us dragged by the other to the base for either ganging or implantaion. The fucking CAPTAIN or the HoP would have been more valuable to a gang than am assistant.

[ComradeQueTheReborn]

So this guy bans me for "Not paying attention" when evidently he has problems doing that himself.

https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=4203

Why is this guys still admining.

Seems woefully incompetent.

[Archie700]

So this guy bans me for "Not paying attention" when evidently he has problems doing that himself.

https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=4203

Why is this guys still admining.

Seems woefully incompetent.

Did you seriously bring up a complaint from more than 6 months ago.

The fuck.

I don't agree with saegrimr in some cases but only once have I actually complained to him. And I just let it drop and didn't bring up his prior actions.

Now I feel fuCking bad because Saegrimr had to deal with THIS SHIT.

[ComradeQueTheReborn]

Admins need to be held accountable for making poor decisions. In this instance he has made a poor decisions and it would appear....not for the first time.

[peoplearestrange]

Admins are held accountable. However we aren't accountable for the stupid decisions that players make and then when they tell us how to do our job correctly from some supposed superiority of situations, the over all view we have of everything in game and the (usually) years of having been a player and then being an admin.

My point being is that a simple day ban has become something more involved than it needed to be simply because you believe everyone else is wrong and you are right. Which doesn't come across well when we ask people to play together, particularly in team based rounds such as gangs.

Anyway I'm going to go ahead and lock this pending an ultimate decision from a headmin. Right now its becoming too much of a slaging match with ad hominem thrown in for good measure.

[Hornygranny]

Denied. Be warned that your attitude sucks, and the road you are heading down is one that ends with you being thrown out.