[kevinz000] arguing with the ref in competitive ss13

[IcePacks]

Byond account and character name: icepacks, pryce bax
Banning admin: thanks kev
Ban type (What are you banned from?): competitive ss13 play
Ban reason and length: "Throw down the ban or drop it"
Well, since you're going to refuse actually talking to me when we're discussing what you did during the round, I guess it's throw down the hammer.
1440 minutes
Time ban was placed (including time zone): 12:20 a.m. est
Your side of the story:
without comment:
I ran into the captain's office, was arrested (after resisting arrest), permabrigged. Admin memes occur, everyone gets guns (mine is confiscated), eventually I am released into permabrig foyer. Some time after that, I finally manage to escape into the brig. An officer shoots the warden, who is carrying a shield. I pick up the shield. I am quickly overwhelmed and killed. Officers space me. I rise as a zombie, except not really. I adminhelp it. I am turned into a zombie by admins. I eventually break into the permabrig foyer, dying once in the process. Eager to spread my wholly impotent (zombies suck) zombie-seed, I attempt to attack the first person I see, the hos. I am permabrigged, as a zombie. I try to break out, dying again to the grille. The HoS arrests my corpse and stuffs it in the morgue. I get out. I run out of brig. I try to break out of maint, which is slow (zombies suck). I am discovered and killed. An officer spaces me. I return to the station, slowly. I break in, complaining to an assistant how zombies suck and how I plan to kill him to add him to my ineffectual zombie horde. I die. I am killed off for real. I AFK some more, someone raises me as a pod person. I take his SAW and inform him that I have a score to settle. I run to the bar, finding the HoS. I try to shoot him. I accidentally hit the bartender, killing them. Kevinz000 PMs me, asking me if I killed the bartender. A heated debate ensues, which I have in the logs below. I am banned after telling Kevinz000 to ban me or move on.

Logs are here. It's largely deadchat and internet dick-flapping.
Why you think you should be unbanned: Security collectively killed me four or five times, surely vindicating one attempt on my killer's life with a weapon acquired within the round.

[D&B]

HoS here

What you attacked was a sec officer wearing my hardsuit, I believe. I lost my shield after I got tased in the brig chasing you after you somehow broke out from perma.

We were trying to contain the infection, and later on you came out naked with a saw, shot the bartender dead, and then I believe I managed to stuff you somewhere.

You were complete shit the whole round.

[IcePacks]

i was a zombie for 3/4ths of the round so being shit was kinda in the territory

[kevinz000]

1. Wasn't admin memes, wizard summoned guns.
2. Your ban appeal thread title makes me think you don't understand at all.
3. You started the whole situation from roundstart by greytiding and using lethal force on security when you got perma'd and got killed for it.
4. Getting killed by a zombie is natural. You can not hold it against them even after you get re-humanized.
5. Admins did not turn you into a zombie.
6. From your explaination the only time security killed you for anything but survival was the first time when you got perma'd and tried to break out and use lethal force on security to do so.
7. You shot someone innocent while trying to shoot the HoS. Both cases would of resulted in the same thing.
8. This could of been a warning but you refused to discuss it so guess what? I'm going to listen to you and drop the hammer.
9. You told me to ban you or move on, and "If I did ban you there's going to be more than an appeal", what did you mean by that?
10. Denied, sit out the dayban, this could of been a stern warning but you absolutely refuse to communicate so I listened to you

[captain sawrge]

I have to wonder what "greytiding" implies in this case considering if it was just trespass and he copped a permabrig for it then the hostility towards sec seems fairly justified.

[D&B]

Even if you did become a zombie, you still had no directive to kill anyone, even less when you became a plant person, since at that point youre basically a self healing augmented human.

I understand that some conflict from non antag crime is your signature, but you really were complete shit and thought just because a wizard used summon guns, you were gonna get away with it.

[D&B]

Also if you don't like perma just suicide or don't do shit that will get you thrown into the dunce corner.

[kevinz000]

I have to wonder what "greytiding" implies in this case considering if it was just trespass and he copped a permabrig for it then the hostility towards sec seems fairly justified.

Rule 1
Precedent 6
Players who attempt to break into the captain's office, head of personnel's office, or the bridge at or near roundstart for no legitimate reason put themselves at risk for being legitimately killed by the captain, heads of staff, or security.
He disarmed the captain's egun and started shooting it on disable at the captain and security. He got what he deserved, and yeah. Wasn't just trespassing. By hostility he means he used a speargun to try to break out, and a LMG later when he got revived. He got killed as a zombie, that's completely justified and expected. He was just griefing that round and he refused to talk to me so I'm dropping the hammer like he asked.

[IcePacks]

why are you posting in numbered lists instead of "whoops! i forgot you were an antag. my apologies!"

the facts are up there, but if you need to read them again i'll sort them in a numbered list:

1) i did waltz into the captain's office when he left the door ajar and i DID disarm him when security responded
2) i was permabrigged
2b) and then afked as a non-antag
3) i was let out (i didn't mention that that was haytham, though, so that's on me i guess)
4) i died the first time running around the brig
5) i rose as a zombie valid secondary target
6) i died a bunch more
7) i perma-died as a zombie
8) i was raised as a podperson
9) i grabbed a SAW off the guy who raised me
10) i ran naked into the bar like an angry plant of war
11) i missed and struck some rando
11b) if it actually matters they deathgasped because they found it hilarious
11c)
12) you banned me after an internet dong-flapping match wherein neither of us listened to each other

counterpoints and arguments:
1) i was a zombie and was killed by other people
2) i tried to kill those people for killing me, an actual common occurence
3) i said "drop the ban or move on" because i figured you'd either be smart and move on or be dumb and respond to the promised appeal with a :^) (which more or less did happen) and set up an argument for a complaint (which i otherwise wouldn't really be able to do)
4) this was a dumb ban because of 1 and 2

Even if you did become a zombie, you still had no directive to kill anyone, even less when you became a plant person, since at that point youre basically a self healing augmented human.

i get the feeling that debating with you is going to be pointless since you're contending that a race with the flavor text "you hunger" and general "resentment towards the living" and "being spawned by a wizard who is an antag" actually has to check their fucking violence privledge with the crew but i will engage you that zombies are actually shittier versions of humans who can't even change their jumpsuits when carp tear them off (a carp tore off my jumpsuit)

i did afk in the brig, which is tantamount to soft-suicide as well

[D&B]

Sure, I'll concede that maybe it would have been justified if you had done the shooting as a zombie, but you were a podperson when you actually carried it off.

Do podperson get any special flavor releasing you from rules and such?

[kevinz000]

1. That's called being a greyshit, and rule 1 precedent 6.
2. Above.
2b. Above.
3. Forgot the part where you shot people with a magspear and caused a scene at the brig.
4. Beat to death by security for above.
5. Security is within their rights to kill zombies
6. And keep them from coming back to life if they can't have time for proper re-humanizing
7. Including disabling their bodies if they absolutely have to (Unless I'm told otherwise). I'm treating zombies as a team antag role unless I'm told otherwise.
8. Podpeople are basically self-healing lizards in terms of the rules far as I know, as they're nonhumans, and well, self healing.
9. Great, you have a gun.
10. Why do you think retaliating against security with a fucking machinegun for curbstomping you for being a greyshit is OK?
11. Well, that's a mistake yes, but you said you had the intent of shooting the HoS.
11b. Above. You said you had the intent of shooting the HoS, I asked why, you gave a dodgy answer.
12. You said there would be more than an appeal if I banned you, and to ban you or drop the case. I'm not going to just drop the case because you basically threatened to start a shitstorm, so I banned you. Threatening to start something that's "more than an appeal" is not going to stop me from trying to do my job. Retaliating against security with lethal weapons to kill or incapacitate them as nonantag for getting arrested for legitimate reasons was never allowed.

[IcePacks]

I was an antagonist.

[kevinz000]

I was an antagonist.

Only when you were a zombie.

[iamgoofball]

Even if you did become a zombie, you still had no directive to kill anyone

i'm just going to drop this here

https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/23810

come on guys

when we add a feature like zombies, please stop playing dumb and assuming they aren't bad guys

use your brain

please

[IcePacks]

Prior to being a zombie, I ran into the captain's office, resisted arrest, was permabrigged, walked out in the chaos of a summon guns round (being released) picked up a shield from an officer tagged by friendly fire, get overwhelmed, and died. Post being a zombie, I was being copied with my post-being-killed-by-sec zombie blood in, again, a summon guns round.

This could possibly justify a note. Most of my non-antag time was spent AFK in the permabrig.

[kevinz000]

Prior to being a zombie, I ran into the captain's office, resisted arrest, was permabrigged, walked out in the chaos of a summon guns round (being released) picked up a shield from an officer tagged by friendly fire, get overwhelmed, and died. Post being a zombie, I was being copied with my post-being-killed-by-sec zombie blood in, again, a summon guns round.

This could possibly justify a note. Most of my non-antag time was spent AFK in the permabrig.

1.If you're not the zombie species, you're deconverted from being a zombie. Headmins, correct me if I'm wrong.
2.Summon guns doesn't matter if you're not a survivalist made by the event, it does NOT GIVE YOU LICENSE TO GRIEF.
3.Well yeah, did you expect security to not stop you?
4. This could if your attitude was better and actually cooperated with me logdiving and trying to sort it out.

[D&B]

Even if you did become a zombie, you still had no directive to kill anyone

i'm just going to drop this here

https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/23810

come on guys

when we add a feature like zombies, please stop playing dumb and assuming they aren't bad guys

use your brain

please

Read the thread retard. I conceded that zombies are antag, but that it didn't carry over when he turned into a podperson.

[onleavedontatme]

[05:13:08]ADMIN: PM: KorPhaeron/(Kor Phaeron)->Emilc4h/(Raphaella Beckett): do you care that pax killed you someone ahelped it

[05:13:13]ADMIN: PM: Emilc4h/(Raphaella Beckett)->KorPhaeron/(Kor Phaeron): nah not really

[05:13:25]ADMIN: PM: Emilc4h/(Raphaella Beckett)->KorPhaeron/(Kor Phaeron): seeing a naked podman run in with an l6 saw was funny tbh

[kevinz000]

[05:13:08]ADMIN: PM: KorPhaeron/(Kor Phaeron)->Emilc4h/(Raphaella Beckett): do you care that pax killed you someone ahelped it

[05:13:13]ADMIN: PM: Emilc4h/(Raphaella Beckett)->KorPhaeron/(Kor Phaeron): nah not really

[05:13:25]ADMIN: PM: Emilc4h/(Raphaella Beckett)->KorPhaeron/(Kor Phaeron): seeing a naked podman run in with an l6 saw was funny tbh

The reason I didn't drop it is because 1. His attitude didn't sound like he cared, at all 2. He said he was aiming for the HoS instead of the bartender. Headmin input would be great.
EDIT: HoS ahelped it, said bryce was rdming as probably nonantag.

[kevinz000]

Ban is lifted.
[23:02] <@KorPhaeron> I think that given 10 presumably adult men have spent an hour discussing the legality of a videogame fight with the luxury of hindsight and full logs we should probably err on the side of not banning someone who made those decisions in real time

Consider yourself on thin ice.

[oranges]

does anyone really doubt my claim that kor protects bryce now? surely it is no longer indispute.

thank you kor I am vindicated.

[kevinz000]

does anyone really doubt my claim that kor protects bryce now? surely it is no longer indispute.

thank you kor I am vindicated.

don't care, welcome back to the game bryce pax, you're no longer my problem, hope you don't piss anyone else off.
also yeah, i've argued way, way too long about this and i'm done.

[Saegrimr]

It keeps happening

[Steelpoint]

If arguing for too long on a case is enough to acquit the accused then the justice system as we know it would not function.

Just argue long enough that you're appeal will be accepted.

Irrespective of what happened after, but breaking into a secure area at shift start and then retaliating against security who are within their right to kill/arrest you for doing being in the secure area is simply stupid.

[onleavedontatme]

does anyone really doubt my claim that kor protects bryce now? surely it is no longer indispute.

thank you kor I am vindicated.

Only took 6 months of repeating it for it to finally happen

[starmute]

Does anyone find anything disturbing about the fact that some of our oldest players are being targeted with "thin ice" probations? Just wondering. Its not like Bryce hasn't contributed anything throughout the years. We've all had a laugh or two at the constant "glorfs" and such.

I honestly don't think he was doing any of this to be a dick. Just a opinion from a player who has spent time around every single one of you.

There were misunderstandings. There were zombies. There was magic with guns. People die.

To quote bromethis "Quit making it a hugbox server"

There were lots of elements that went wrong that led to player misunderstanding and rule bending.

Regardless I hope the admins don't take this shit personally. However sometimes it sounds like they do.


If this game is becoming too personal. Take a break. Its a game.

[NikNakFlak]

Please don't pretend it's just because they are old. Old players have more notes and bans because they've been around longer sure, but not to this extent.

[kevinz000]

-snip-

Exactly that, I am not targetting Icepacks because he's an old player.

[lzimann]

This whole thing was kinda stupid. If the person killed didn't care about what happened, a ban here is pretty much not needed. Anyway, the ban was lifted and I believe we are done here.

[MrStonedOne]

does anyone really doubt my claim that kor protects bryce now? surely it is no longer indispute.

thank you kor I am vindicated.

kor's just doing it so that i don't have to