Keith Earl (ErikHanson) - Heads Jobban Request

[Rocco Ward]

Your byond account: tilus
Your character name: Rocco Ward
Their character name: Keith Earl
Their byond account(optional, but useful if you can provide it): ErikHanson
Server and time: 10/29/2014 - 8:20 PM
Logs and/or screenshots:
Complete Logs
Summary of Logs
Description of what happened: Basically sums up to that he meta'd really hard. I walked into tcomms after roundstart as an engineer and he detained me for roughly ten minutes until I was forced to spawn as a blob right in the middle of security. No questions were asked. He just beat me with his baton, and forced me to stay in security to confirm his suspicion. In the logs he even admits that he suspects me of being *something* and to just wait it out.
Why they should be banned: You don't assault someone for walking into a room they HAVE ACCESS too and then beat and detain them for 10 minutes FOR NO FUCKING REASON! I'd also like to add that CE was also trying to drag me to permabrig but the officers had their guns drawn and he felt the need to back off.

[ErikHanson]

Hi, here's my side.

I walked into tcomms, and saw you sitting there between the doors, no gear, no protection, nothing, as soon as i came in, opened the door, you ran out, and kept running, so i suspected your of something, being a traitor, or something else, because you where doing odd things.

Keith Earl says, "Guys"
Keith Earl says, "Let me explain this"
Keith Earl says, "For one moment"
Keith Earl says, "I came into tcomms"
Keith Earl says, "i saw him, between the doors, laying down"
Keith Earl says, "So, i tried to ask him what's up"
Keith Earl says, "and he ran away"
Keith Earl says, "and kept running"

[Rocco Ward]

You don't assault someone for walking into a room they HAVE ACCESS too and then beat and detain them for 10 minutes FOR NO FUCKING REASON!

[srifenbyxp]

Normally I laugh and chuckle at silly request but shitty behavior as a head don't sit right with me, so to clarify:

1. You were Antag (You are infected by the Blob!) which means you have little to no say in anything because it's your job as antag to fuck all.

2. Did the supposed guilty party fuck up? From what the logs and you say yes, pretty much. If anything bans won't be given but a warning most likely will for shitty behavior regardless of antag status.

[Antonkr]

Hm, I am a bit conflicted on this one. Laying down between the doors in telecomms with no protective gear even as an engineer is kinda shady at most (even with the access there), but no crime was commited. Gonna ask hbl his thoughts.

[MrGlasses]

CE is in the wrong here, in my opinion, but i'm not sure if it constitutes a headban or even a ban at all.

[Timbrewolf]

I was present and watching when this happened.

It didn't appear to me that the CE was purposely holding you in security to run the clock and see if you would turn into a blob, he brought you in to explain to them what was going on. You made an escape attempt, got caught again, and then dragged back inside.

It's really more security's fault that the warden didn't take you from the CE and give you an appropriate brig time for trespassing or whatever. Also it's partly your own fault for not managing to run the hell away when you had the opportunity. You only ended up adding to your own time being interrogated with that one.

The whole situation boils down to the fact that you were caught acting weird in a sensitive area of the station. It makes perfect sense IC for the person in charge of that area to want to get you detained and interrogated to find out why you were in there and what you were hoping to accomplish.

I mean come on dude:

1) You weren't a roundstart engineer, you weren't in uniform. You're suspicious. When the CE opened the door he would've seen a guy in a hot pink jumpsuit and budget insulated gloves laying down on the floor. Yeah that's totally normal.
2) As soon as the CE arrives you bolt.
3) When he detains you and tries to take you to sec rather than explain the situation you start screaming like a jackass:

Rocco Ward says, "CE IS ROGUE"
Rocco Ward says, "dragging me"
Rocco Ward says, "HELP"
Rocco Ward says, "HE'S ATTACKING ME"
Rocco Ward says, "FOR NO FUCKING REASON"

You started out shady as shit and only made things worse and worse for yourself every step of the way.

[Rocco Ward]

I did not escape, I was released! None of the officers there tried to charge me with anything and had their weapons drawn almost ready to tackle the CE.

Rocco Ward says, "LET ME THE FUCK OUT"
Rocco Ward says, "FUCK THAT DICK"
Keith Earl says, "This crewmember"
Buford T. Justice says, "What happened"
Keith Earl says, "tried to break into"
Buford T. Justice says, "expain that shit"
Keith Earl says, "tcomms"
Rocco Ward shows you: Rocco Ward's ID Card (Station Engineer): assignment: Station Engineer
Rocco Ward says, "I thought it was engineering"
Keith Earl says, "Let's put it this way"
Keith Earl says, "I came into tcomms"
Not Found queries, "as an engineer doesn't he have access to Tcomms?"
Keith Earl says, "and he ran off"
Buford T. Justice says, "Rocco if you do something suspcious again you gonna get locked up"

Right after that the officers let me go. When I left security, the CE came out and ran after me and started beating me again inside maint. He would not leave or let me get away.

Also it's partly your own fault for not managing to run the hell away when you had the opportunity. You only ended up adding to your own time being interrogated with that one.

The whole situation boils down to the fact that you were caught acting weird in a sensitive area of the station. It makes perfect sense IC for the person in charge of that area to want to get you detained and interrogated to find out why you were in there and what you were hoping to accomplish.

Not once did he ask me anything. I literally WALKED into telecomms, and he pulled out his baton and started beating me with it as he dragged me off to security. I spent a good time on the floor stunned from repeated - "Rocco Ward has been knocked down with the telescopic baton by Keith Earl!" I didn't get a chance to explain anything, I was just brutally attacked.

The whole situation boils down to the fact that you were caught acting weird in a sensitive area of the station. It makes perfect sense IC for the person in charge of that area to want to get you detained and interrogated to find out why you were in there and what you were hoping to accomplish.

I mean come on dude:

1) You weren't a roundstart engineer, you weren't in uniform. You're suspicious. When the CE opened the door he would've seen a guy in a hot pink jumpsuit and budget insulated gloves laying down on the floor. Yeah that's totally normal.
2) As soon as the CE arrives you bolt.
3) When he detains you and tries to take you to sec rather than explain the situation you start screaming like a jackass:

Rocco Ward says, "CE IS ROGUE"
Rocco Ward says, "dragging me"
Rocco Ward says, "HELP"
Rocco Ward says, "HE'S ATTACKING ME"
Rocco Ward says, "FOR NO FUCKING REASON"

You started out shady as shit and only made things worse and worse for yourself every step of the way.

Panicking and screaming on the intercomm for help when a lunatic player is attacking without a valid reason is pretty normal. And repeated attempts to subdue me and drag me across maint was suspicious as fuck. I had every right to call him rogue. Even after I showed my engineer ID, he still persisted in his attempts.

And for the record I was attacked with his telescopic baton for a grand total of - 16 times (Not to mention the amount of time spent inbetween being chased, handcuffed, and idle in security.)

[Timbrewolf]

I don't know if you were "released" so much as this big dumb idiot sec officer walked into the brig while this was happened, and you took the opportunity to push through everyone and run out the door.

The big dumb idiot sec officer being me personally.

What this boils down to is whether or not the CE had a good enough reason to be suspicious about what you were doing. I think walking by TCOMMS and seeing a guy dressed in assistant clothes loitering around inside not doing anything is a pretty good reason to stop and get that guy out of there. If what he says happened next is true:

as soon as i came in, opened the door, you ran out, and kept running, so i suspected your of something,

Then I think it's fair that the only excuse you provided:

Rocco Ward says, "I thought it was engineering"
Rocco Ward says, "YOU DUMB FUCK"

Doesn't really rate.

[Rocco Ward]

Did he have a good reason to be suspicious? Slightly. Did he ask any questions? Not once. So he immediately pulled out his baton, and came at me. Even after he found out I had access (confirms it wasn't trespass) he still wouldn't let go. There was no crime committed. As far as I could tell, he was severely paranoid and had no justification for his actions.

And are you seriously implying that as a head you have the right to detain people from your department for that long without a tangible crime?! Ten minutes. TEN! All based on suspicion!?! That's ABSOLUTELY RIDICULOUS no matter how you try to spin it!

[Timbrewolf]

Actually if you were granted access by the HoP without confirming with the CE first then you have what's known as "illegal access". Even if your ID says Engineer if the CE didn't sign off on you joining his department you're still a trespasser. And he has every right to detain you and have your access taken away via demotion back to whatever.

So yeah, an assistant he didn't approve getting access to Engineering hiding in TCOMMS is grounds for him to arrest you as someone trespassing where you dont belong. Just because the HoP has the access machine doesn't mean he is in charge of every department. It's a good reason why you should always talk to the head of the department you want to join before you just run into the HoP line and request a change, because otherwise stuff like this can happen.

You were not some random guy he saw loitering in the halls and he decided to just grab you off the street and hold onto you to see if you would turn into a blob. You were someone who didn't belong in an area over which he has supervision, and at each step of the way you continued to act suspicious and hostile towards the CE.

Like seriously, it bears repeating but:

Rocco Ward says, "I thought it was engineering"
Rocco Ward says, "YOU DUMB FUCK"

Why would any CE want to keep you in his department after you both insulted him and admitted you don't even know where Engineering is? If your goal is to just get away from this guy and get back to your blob site, why are you trying to escalate the argument? A major reason this took long enough for you to turn into a blob is because you kept CAPSLOCK pushing the CE back and being obviously REALLY MAD about being taken away from TCOMMS. You weren't acting like a normal person who got caught trespassing somewhere would. You were being incredibly defensive and multiple people picked up on that, the CE included.

[Rocco Ward]

Illegal access... really?! That is a BIG stretch of the imagination. I didn't exactly knockout the HoP and steal his ID now did I? Most players know that at roundstart it is quite common for assistants to be assigned new jobs, and that sort of thing should be expected when you are a head. The fact that I had access to the room by opening and closing the airlock without any visible hacking gear should be a dead giveaway to the CE. The moment that he didn't try to take me to the HoP line to get demoted shows that he didn't care that I was promoted. So that entire point you just made is not really relevant to this case.

So let me ask this, WHAT CRIME WAS COMMITED?! Which one exactly Anon? Point to me in space law where it says walking into telecomms is a capital crime. You seem to be very one-sided on this case and discount that the CE just KIDNAPPED & ASSAULTED a random person for ten minutes without a good reason?! I mean I could understand if I walked into the armory as a security officer or something but it was telecomms! The airlock didn't even finish closing by the time the CE appeared for fucks sake.

On top of everything you have just said, think about precedent. Would it be perfectly ok for perhaps the RD to do the exact same thing to someone promoted to scientist who happened to walk into xenobio or toxins? What if the clown was promoted to genetics and the CMO attacked him?! You seem to be deadset that the CE in this situation had every right to do so. And my problem isn't so much that he attacked me or tried to get me demoted, but that he detained me for long enough for me to burst inside security for easy pickins. He even said so in the logs,

Keith Earl says, "WHEN I ASKED HIM"
Keith Earl says, "TO TELL ME WHY HE'S THERE"
Keith Earl says, "SO HE IS SOMETHING"
Keith Earl says, "STRANGE"
Jim Otis says, "Looks like a engineer to me"
Keith Earl says, "A AGENT, A NUKE AGENT"

Clearly that "strange" thing he was referencing meant I was a nuke ops. Obviously. That explains why he kept me detained in brig for so long intentionally when no crimes were commited. And that also explains why he never searched me. He just waited... and waited. Whenever I would try to get away he would bring me straight back to security, never try to press any crimes or ask me questions. To say he was not powergaming his ass off is very disingenuous. It was crystal clear that he didn't think I was a syndie. Regardless of this and everything that happened, he still had no right to detain me for as long as he did. Maybe take away my ID? Sure, I could handle that, but to go this far?!

Absurd.

[ThatSlyFox]

I was the HoS that round and from what I saw Rocco really hadn't done anything and it got to a certain point to where the CE was going out of his way to get him to the brig. If he didn't burst when he did I would have removed his cuffs him and sent him on his way. Interrogation was mentioned but it would not have worked because there was no evidence against him, I searched him. At most we would have kept a close eye on him.

Keith Earl says, "WHEN I ASKED HIM"
Keith Earl says, "TO TELL ME WHY HE'S THERE"
Keith Earl says, "SO HE IS SOMETHING"
Keith Earl says, "STRANGE"
Jim Otis says, "Looks like a engineer to me"
Keith Earl says, "A AGENT, A NUKE AGENT"

I don't know about you guys but that just screams valid hunting to me. He was laying down in tcomms and then ran when keith entered. Is that shady? yes. Does keith need to stun him with his baton and chase him around for over 5 minutes over it? no. If he wants to act like security then he should sign up to be security. We should really discourage behavior like this. I do not think a ban should be put in place but erikHanson should get a warning.

[Hibbles]

So here's the basic story.

>See a guy who's acting wierd
>Oh, he's running from me
>Clearly that means he might be a Round Antagonist
>Better detain him indefinitely

Being correct in your assumption doesn't make it any better. I'm a little reminded of a guy we banned from silicions some time ago. He killed a dude, as Asimov. Why? He thought he was a Changeling. Why? Because he saw the guy braindead in the Chapel Office earlier, and now he was walking towards the shuttle. That's it, that's the end of that sentence. That's it. And the borg just straight-up murdered him on the spot. Since people in low-priority jobs who go braindead don't usually come back, so clearly it was more likely that he'd been eaten and replaced by a Changeling. And he didn't just suspect this in a little 'oh, this guy has a gasmask and is hovering around, he's probably going to kill me with a pipebomb' thing that veteran players often get. Like, you can predict some of this, sure. But he went immediately to death based on that, and solely that.

And staunchly argued in his appeal that was a reasonable way to do #logic.

Being suspicious of this sort of shifty behavior is okay but you really went above-and-beyond the call of duty. If one weren't charitable, one might suspect you were trying to wait out the clock to see if he was a blob, which is a tad on the meta side of the spectrum.

EDIT: Although I also want to clarify two points, as far as I'm concerned Anon has the final word in all matters, as do the others whenever they're actually elected, even if I might hover around for a while and abuse people some more or whatever.

Second point is that Mr. Blob was incredibly unsubtle with his precious antag round and if he wasn't, wouldn't have lost it in such a silly manner, even if all the above is also true.

[Malkevin]

So let me ask this, WHAT CRIME WAS COMMITED?! Which one exactly Anon? Point to me in space law where it says walking into telecomms is a capital crime. You seem to be very one-sided on this case and discount that the CE just KIDNAPPED & ASSAULTED a random person for ten minutes without a good reason?! I mean I could understand if I walked into the armory as a security officer or something but it was telecomms! The airlock didn't even finish closing by the time the CE appeared for fucks sake.

FYI: IIRC: On-station T-comms didn't exist when I updated Space Law, I'm pretty sure only the CE and RD had access to the T-Comm sat at the time too - even if not the only way to get to the Sat was through the teleporter, which is a Command Level area itself.
If you read the notes for a Code 309 you'll see that Major Trespass is a Major Crime which can lead to a perma brigging if the reason for the trespass is believed to be to commit a capital crime, like grand sabotage.

[Ikarrus]

I've spoken privately with ErikHanson and gave him a warning about the extended detention without charge.

However, that's as far as I'll take it. The CE was not informed of your transfer and you were not in uniform, either. The HoP can issue access and transfer jobs but it is the CE who has the final say in who is in their department (exceeded only by the Captain).

I've found that your behavior was suspicious and indeed worthy of an arrest and questioning, but being held in the brig for an extended period of time without a formal charge by the CE is not something I believe should be happening.