Widens-the-eyes Detective Unjustified execution

Comrade Leo · Post by **Comrade Leo** » Wed Jan 21, 2015 12:13 am #60987

Your byond account:ComradeLeo
Your character name:Tessa Rosa
Their character name:Widens-the-eyes
Their byond account(optional, but useful if you can provide it):Vigilare
Server and time:Badger, round ended ~21:45 GMT 20/01/2015
Logs and/or screenshots: see https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=2642
Description of what happened:Unjustified execution as detective

This is mostly a repost from that thread above.

For the record I was an Atmospheric technician not a assistant.

Mime emags Engineering. Intending to kill me. I disarm his minibomb and whisk it away. Stupid ass mime comes at us again, at this point it was Walter, myself and noel wailing on this mime who brings out yet another minibomb, which I disarm from him again and shove in my bag. Jane shows up after he pulls out a e-sword, she disarms him, then we all robust the shit out of him. Vigilare as Widens-the-eyes the DETECTIVE, at this point waltz in and tazercuffs the mime. He asks who had the sword, everyone says jane. He takes the mime away, I declare over the common channel that I had the two bombs the mime had. I sold one to lindsay for a Ushanka later on, however from this point on I have little interaction with Widens-the-eyes, just over the intercom refusing to hand them over as I was 'selling them'. I spend a while in Maintenance, and step out into the hallway, widens see me and I book it into maintenance, because he had declared he was going to harm and torture me over the common channel. I only hear Ty shouting for me to run, I didn't see what happened to Ty, but widens in his infinite unrobustness runs right past me. I hear that Widens has permenantly brigged Ty over the common channel a short while later. At this point I break into his detectives office and unwrench his tables, which is the only thing I did all round that could even be considered grief, widens sees me and I for some reason manage to just walk away.

Sometime later I hear Jane has brigged the Widens over the common channel. So i'm just chilling in the hallways and the chef comes at me with a bar of syndie soap and a fire extinguisher. Patricia is screaming he shot lindsay to death, cook still coming at me I robust him and he runs off, got his soap and ID so he can't get far. Chemist then pops up and sprays some shit in his face and melts his face off. A little while later I walk into medbay and grab the cook who had been restrained in a straight jacket. I bring him to the brig, after declaring I was bringing in a known murderer. They let me in, Widens is free, as I hadn't been zapped by beepsky at any point I assume i'm off arrest. They take the cook, then widens tazers me. Strips me to nothing, saying he didn't want me calling for help (I had already started Ahelping at this point but nobody answered me). He says something along the lines of I'm going to be executed. I ask the borg for help say that he was harming me, which he was, with pepper spray (three seperate times at this point despite being cuffed and restrained.). Either the borg was ignoring me and not following it's laws, or was subverted i'm not sure. It runs off. He starts monologuing about some authority to execute me, I for some bizarre reason manage to slip out my cuffs and try to book it, because who wouldn't when some detective tells you he is gonna execute me for and I paraphrase here "trashing his desk" as his only reason when I asked. He recaptures me, after a few yakketys. Then executes me, stuffs my body in a locker and that's it.

Then I speak with 'Administrator' who I assume was Gamarr, his name didn't show for whatever reason.

First you''l notice I mention he is only a detective. This is because he was, and never declared once he was a acting HoS. He had no authority to execute. Even if he was HoS or a captain, I could have been hardly considered a threat worthy of execution, having:

Never hurt anyone on the station.
Never griefed.
Never murdered.
Brought down two traitors.

The only things I was guilty of was holding contraband, and evading arrest. I never greytided, and for the very most of the shift had little to no interaction with Widens.

I'm going to bring up the rules here, because I feel the case was not handled properly.

Executions
Where possible, executions are to be authorized by, in order of availability; Captain/acting Captain → Head of Security → Warden.

Admin quoted to me that he had authority to execute as a detective, this is incorrect.

Security reserve the right to carry out executions, without authorization, in the case of potential significant risk or extraordinary circumstances.

I did not pose a significant risk to the crew or station. I never once harmed or threatened harm. Quite the contrary, bringing in one known murderer and joint helping bringing down the first tator.
The circumstances were not extraordinary, the station was not under threat from nuke ops, blobs, or otherwise.

When considering whether to authorize or carry out an execution, consideration should be made to the severity of the crime committed. There are varying degrees of syndicate collaboration, for example.

Severity of the crime was merely contraband. And deconstructing tables. None of which was worthy of execution. He did however permabrig the tator I brought in for murder, Ty for disarming him, and the mime for being a syndie. My crimes of having two pieces of contraband however were deemed worthy of a execution. I would have accepted a brig sentence, but execution is full on shitcurity. His execution was unjustified, even if the original admin called it 'greytide' he should have according to the rules for 'greytide' at least brigged me the first time. Considering I didn't go out of my way to intentionally screw with security, had very little interaction with them until the execution.

I think Vigilare got too heated after Jane brigged him, and wasn't IC when he was even considering execution, and was simply out to 'get back' for being out-robusted, which after not being able to get Jane, decided to take it out on me, despite my action helping security.

Why they should be banned: Jobbanned please at least until they learn not to abuse their position, Unjustified execution, exceeding authority, reason and percieved crimes.

Lastly not related:

Adminhelping and Security-matters
Theft, assault, annoyances, false arrests and sentence times are in-character matters, thus not adminhelp-able.
Unless if they are excessive, in which case you should adminhelp.

This is the reason I Adminhelped. I don't appreciate being accused of banbaiting, for intelligently arguing my case and the investigating admin getting angry.

danno · Post by **danno** » Wed Jan 21, 2015 1:06 am #61014

danno wrote:I was also "executed", although the circumstances under which it happened were chaotic. I still maintain that I posed 0 threat to anyone and was beaten to death out of spite more than anything. I wasn't fighting back or anything. Just using smoke. The second unlawful execution by the detective in that shift.

https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=2642

Vigilare is quite honestly the worst security player I've met yet. They may be the most hated security player on Basil.
After many rounds of playing security alongside them, I don't even know what to say.
It's like they exclusively play jobs that get guns right away, and then spend rounds looking for reasons to use them on people. It's abhorrent.
They play security like they're trying to be the epitome of shitcurity as some kind of ironic joke, but what happens is that they end up playing the epitome of shitcurity.
I'm looking for a jobban from security for Vigilare not only because of this round, but because of every other round I've worked with them in security. Not even the ones where I wasn't security. Specifically the ones where I was, because you get to see first hand how utterly awful they are.

Ahammer18 · Post by **Ahammer18** » Wed Jan 21, 2015 1:09 am #61017

We'll have to wait to hear his side of the story, but from hearing everyone's testimony in the first request I'm inclined to side with you.

Vigilare · Post by **Vigilare** » Wed Jan 21, 2015 1:13 am #61018

I'll give my side tomorrow 'cause it's 1am and my 3DS doesn't do essays at all

cedarbridge · Post by **cedarbridge** » Wed Jan 21, 2015 3:37 am #61066

This was discussed by 4 admins in adminbus. It was ruled IC. You harbored and distributed dangerous contraband (esword and bombs.) You were then surprised that the very limited security on the server executed you. Dunking antags doesn't give you special privileges so I'm not sure why you keep quoting that bit. You acted like an antag and the security available on the station treated you like an antag. Widens was also talked to about the issue at the time. All of this was handled by in-game administration (Gamarr handling directly.)

Post by **Vekter** » Wed Jan 21, 2015 2:53 pm #61216

Posting under An0n3 Amendment.

Isn't the Captain the only one who can authorize an execution? Admittedly that's stated in Space Law, but I was under the impression that part was echoed in the rules.

Vigilare · Post by **Vigilare** » Wed Jan 21, 2015 5:37 pm #61250

Comrade Leo wrote:First you''l notice I mention he is only a detective. This is because he was, and never declared once he was a acting HoS. He had no authority to execute.

there were literally three people in the entire security force
one of them was braindead
the other didn't know how to uncuff people
it's not a huge leap of logic to work out that the guy in the HoS's armoured greatcoat with the guns is probably the guy running sec

Even if he was HoS or a captain, I could have been hardly considered a threat worthy of execution, having:

Never hurt anyone on the station.
Never griefed.
Never murdered.
Brought down two traitors.

you were distributing syndicate minibombs. compare it to turning the PA to +3. it's not technically harmful, but damn people are most likely gonna die because of it.
the detective's office table stunt was hilarious Bad And Morally Wrong
... ok who am I kidding that was hilarious

I was 75% sure you turning in the straitjacket-guy was a trap, 'cause you had bombs and knew we wanted to arrest you
I told the newbiesec to get you both in for processing, then I did the arresting (and hiding you in a locker so the borg didn't cry law one)

at that time I had no idea the bombs were elsewhere, up until I searched your bag and couldn't find them

Admin quoted to me that he had authority to execute as a detective, this is incorrect.

I ahelped it first because I was only acting HoS (and ahelping before executions is good anyway) - received the reply that execution is an alternative to perma, and if I could perma you I could execute you

I did not pose a significant risk to the crew or station. I never once harmed or threatened harm. Quite the contrary, bringing in one known murderer and joint helping bringing down the first tator.
The circumstances were not extraordinary, the station was not under threat from nuke ops, blobs, or otherwise.

I knew you had minibombs, so that's.. a pretty significant threat
I didn't know you swapped them for the ushanka though (hence my slight befuddlement when I couldn't find them)

Severity of the crime was merely contraband. And deconstructing tables. None of which was worthy of execution. He did however permabrig the tator I brought in for murder, Ty for disarming him, and the mime for being a syndie. My crimes of having two pieces of contraband however were deemed worthy of a execution. I would have accepted a brig sentence, but execution is full on shitcurity. His execution was unjustified, even if the original admin called it 'greytide' he should have according to the rules for 'greytide' at least brigged me the first time.

I tried apprehending you in the maint tunnels - first time - which didn't work (mainly because Ty disarmed me and I had to pick my taser back up)
second time was when I dragged you to the brig cells and you broke outta cuffs and ran
third time, laser gun (though solitary or secpod confinement would've worked better at this point - iirc the shuttle was being called anyway)

Considering I didn't go out of my way to intentionally screw with security, had very little interaction with them until the execution.

that very little interaction is why I went for execution rather than five minutes brig
running from sec and sparking a half-hour-long manhunt is the absence of interaction, and also a crime

I think Vigilare got too heated after Jane brigged him

yeah, that's probably true. brigging sec is pretty awful.

and wasn't IC when he was even considering execution, and was simply out to 'get back' for being out-robusted, which after not being able to get Jane, decided to take it out on me, despite my action helping security.

not quite as true. there were other viable IC alternatives (permabrig, ten minute cell) but when I considered those I was fairly sure jane would break you out with her all-access and tasers. cuffs + bolted secpod/evidence room would have worked fine, though, I didn't think of those at the time

Why they should be banned: Jobbanned please at least until they learn not to abuse their position, Unjustified execution, exceeding authority, reason and percieved crimes.

I'd argue the execution was perfectly justified, if a bit extreme (for which yes I am sorry, secpod+cuffs/straitjacket would've been better)
Authority; there were literally three people in sec and two were unavailable for some reason.
Reason and perceived crimes; I asked you to turn yourself in several times pre-office, you didn't - the electropack threat was only after you ruined my tables and I stopped laughing about it

tldr: execution was justified and allowed, but there were less lethal alternatives I didn't consider
the guy in the HoS clothes is probably the HoS
and running from sec is a crime

danno · Post by **danno** » Wed Jan 21, 2015 5:58 pm #61259

>the guy in the HoS clothes is probably the HoS

except when they aren't at all
like this exact case
where you weren't, at all.

Vigilare · Post by **Vigilare** » Wed Jan 21, 2015 6:15 pm #61261

riddle me this.
who was the acting hos, then
if not the guy with the guns in the greatcoat

was it the newbiesec, who (though a pretty cool guy) didn't even know how to uncuff people
was it the braindead sec, who probably knew how to manage an understaffed secteam but was braindead in the brig from roundstart
was it the hop, who upgraded my id and disappeared to ??somewhere?? (and possibly gave you all-access too, not sure where you got that)

it all boils down to this basically
being an assistant doesn't mean 'licence to griff', it's not ss13 giving you carte blanche to screw with sec
it means you should assist, and follow orders, because that's literally an assistant's job, to get bossed around by everyone ever
it means you start sleazy maint bars or weird newscaster channels or something, like most crazy assistants
not that you get to steal contraband and tase people and let out prisoners. if you want to do that, suicide when you fail your antag roll.

danno · Post by **danno** » Wed Jan 21, 2015 6:30 pm #61264

If I stole the captain's armor, would it make me the captain? I guess I should have done that then.
I don't see a problem with what I did, and neither does the admin that handled the case. Stay salty.

Comrade Leo · Post by **Comrade Leo** » Wed Jan 21, 2015 7:49 pm #61276

there were literally three people in the entire security force
one of them was braindead
the other didn't know how to uncuff people
it's not a huge leap of logic to work out that the guy in the HoS's armoured greatcoat with the guns is probably the guy running sec

Or quite literally the detective who decided to steal the HoS's coat and an armoury full of weapons to be as powergamey as possible. Reinforced by not announcing it once, ever even when jane called you out over the common for being 'just the detective'.

If I was a paranoid man I could almost say that you literally only took on the HoS stuff, because as a speshul snowflake lizard you can't take a head role, and so circumvented that hardcoded rule. Especially so as you must have done it before any crime was reported, and so had no reason to switch jobs as the situation changed for the worse. But I'm not one to make assumptions based on poor information and paranoia.

you were distributing syndicate minibombs. compare it to turning the PA to +3. it's not technically harmful, but damn people are most likely gonna die because of it.

Just the one, which was never used, and was handed into security if you bothered to listen to the radio like ever, by Lindsay.

I was 75% sure you turning in the straitjacket-guy was a trap, 'cause you had bombs and knew we wanted to arrest you

Again if you had taken the time to listen to the radio, the botanist, myself, the chemist and the CMO were all reporting the cook as rogue, and had shot lindsay to death, as well as randomly beating people. Had you bothered being the detective you originally signed up for that '75% sure' it's a trap would have dropped to 0% when I also on the radio announced I was bringing in said murderer. Had it been in any way a trap, I wouldn't have stood there like a cretin for 2 minutes waiting for you to take the guy.

at that time I had no idea the bombs were elsewhere, up until I searched your bag and couldn't find them

There was a bomb still in the bag, again had you done proper detecting and investigating you would have seen it in the box in my bag. Plus the bomb in a bag that lindsay had dropped off apparently outside the brig.

I ahelped it first because I was only acting HoS (and ahelping before executions is good anyway) - received the reply that execution is an alternative to perma, and if I could perma you I could execute you

Had you also told him you never announced you had decided to take up the rank of HoS, i'm sure the response to the ahelps would have changed dramaticly.

I knew you had minibombs, so that's.. a pretty significant threat

Yet never once threatened to use them or harm anyone with them.

I didn't know you swapped them for the ushanka though (hence my slight befuddlement when I couldn't find them)

Again announced on the radio, and the recipient of the traded bomb. Starting to see a pattern with the radio here.

I tried apprehending you in the maint tunnels - first time - which didn't work (mainly because Ty disarmed me and I had to pick my taser back up)

After you threatened to torture me who wouldn't.

second time was when I dragged you to the brig cells and you broke outta cuffs and ran

Which you said you were going to execute me right away, not even bothering to check my bag once.

third time, laser gun (though solitary or secpod confinement would've worked better at this point - iirc the shuttle was being called anyway)

You had decided to use the final option before even considering the situation.

that very little interaction is why I went for execution rather than five minutes brig
running from sec and sparking a half-hour-long manhunt is the absence of interaction, and also a crime

Might have been the fact that you had threatened harm against me first. Before I had evaded you in the maintenance tunnels.

and wasn't IC when he was even considering execution, and was simply out to 'get back' for being out-robusted, which after not being able to get Jane, decided to take it out on me, despite my action helping security.

I didn't think of those at the time

You didn't think all shift, you listened to nobody.

Authority; there were literally three people in sec and two were unavailable for some reason.

You promoted yourself at round start this is clear. You weren't out of your depth as a detective until way after we all robusted the mime in your absence. Probably because you were too busy tooling yourself up.

I asked you to turn yourself in several times pre-office, you didn't.

The only true thing you had said.

- the electropack threat was only after you ruined my tables and I stopped laughing about it

Incorrect, my table deconstruction was in response to your threat.

tldr: execution was justified and allowed, but there were less lethal alternatives I didn't consider
the guy in the HoS clothes is probably the HoS
and running from sec is a crime

tldr: You talk out of your arse.

cedarbridge wrote:This was discussed by 4 admins in adminbus. It was ruled IC. You harbored and distributed dangerous contraband (esword and bombs.) You were then surprised that the very limited security on the server executed you. Dunking antags doesn't give you special privileges so I'm not sure why you keep quoting that bit. You acted like an antag and the security available on the station treated you like an antag. Widens was also talked to about the issue at the time. All of this was handled by in-game administration (Gamarr handling directly.)

Discussed based on incorrect information supplied by Vigilare. And ruled on that information, not to mention heavily biased as the admin was getting increasingly hostile as the ahelps went on despite myself arguing peacefully to the contrary. Nothing I said was considered or taken into account, and I had the distinct impression there was nothing I could of said to take away the immediate bias of "greytider". Considering Vigilare had already spoke to at least one admin at some point and the admin identifying me as "the other one with the two bombs", whom never bothered to contact me in that first instance.
I mentioned the dunking of the two antags specifically for a reason. First, the ones who were an actual threat to the station were given perma instead of execution, which in comparison is a much reduced sentence - having actually harmed people too. This implies that Vigilare was not thinking when he handed out his 'sentence' of execution, and was a knee jerk response of opportunity. Coupled with his perma sentence of Ty for just disarming him with no prior, just reinforces this. Second, it also reinforces the fact that I was at no point a threat to the station, or antag, and therefore would never have used the contraband in a threatening or harmful manner.

Vigilare · Post by **Vigilare** » Wed Jan 21, 2015 9:22 pm #61307

Comrade Leo wrote:First, the ones who were an actual threat to the station were given perma instead of execution

I'm not even going to bother replying to the rest, but this bit perfectly encapsulates just why they were given perma

antags are there to make the round fun, to do antaggy things - executing them (and therefore giving them no chance at getting back in the round) for doing their job is uncool

non-antags who act antaggy, on the other hand, are only doing it to screw with sec, and they get execution (because any other option and they'll keep doing it)
you were the latter. the actual taters (one of who escaped because I was too busy dealing with jane's esword stunt) were the former. that's why they get perma.

Raven776 · Post by **Raven776** » Wed Jan 21, 2015 9:35 pm #61311

Let's see... What did I do in this round...

I think this is the round that I was cracking the safe open and running around with the loot inside being a general nuisance to the security force. I remember having to turn my comms off after the first bout of 'I will torture you as nonharmfully as possible' was said. He also threatened to use an electropack, as that was 'nonharmful.'

My experience with Widens being an idiot was pretty much just listening to him over general comms saying how he would torture and execute Tessa or Jane or whoever the hell had his ire at the moment. That and the borg not intervening was rather bizarre.

I remember figuring that it was open season on an unruly security member, so I broke into the armory, hid inside a locker, and waited to jump out and scare him. Jane and crew decided they were higher and mightier than the (other) greytider on the station and played security force and tried to arrest me. They seemed to pretty much just assume that since they dunked an antag, they were allowed all the toys and privileges of security and destruction.

But as bad as I find that, the detective was worse and has proven to be pretty awful over a lot of rounds. Lockering a body that you could instead borg (or do any other number of things with) is awful.

cedarbridge · Post by **cedarbridge** » Wed Jan 21, 2015 9:39 pm #61314

Comrade Leo wrote:
cedarbridge wrote:This was discussed by 4 admins in adminbus. It was ruled IC. You harbored and distributed dangerous contraband (esword and bombs.) You were then surprised that the very limited security on the server executed you. Dunking antags doesn't give you special privileges so I'm not sure why you keep quoting that bit. You acted like an antag and the security available on the station treated you like an antag. Widens was also talked to about the issue at the time. All of this was handled by in-game administration (Gamarr handling directly.)
Discussed based on incorrect information supplied by Vigilare. And ruled on that information, not to mention heavily biased as the admin was getting increasingly hostile as the ahelps went on despite myself arguing peacefully to the contrary. Nothing I said was considered or taken into account, and I had the distinct impression there was nothing I could of said to take away the immediate bias of "greytider". Considering Vigilare had already spoke to at least one admin at some point and the admin identifying me as "the other one with the two bombs", whom never bothered to contact me in that first instance.
I mentioned the dunking of the two antags specifically for a reason. First, the ones who were an actual threat to the station were given perma instead of execution, which in comparison is a much reduced sentence - having actually harmed people too. This implies that Vigilare was not thinking when he handed out his 'sentence' of execution, and was a knee jerk response of opportunity. Coupled with his perma sentence of Ty for just disarming him with no prior, just reinforces this. Second, it also reinforces the fact that I was at no point a threat to the station, or antag, and therefore would never have used the contraband in a threatening or harmful manner.

1) Vigilare didn't provide logs and other materials used to make admin decisions. Rather, we arrived on the server at your request, investigated and made a ruling.
2) An admin being exasperated with you does no mark a "bias." It denotes that the admin in question is exasperated with you or the process of dealing with your claim. Since this particular case became a case of "This is the ruling" "BUT BUT BUT" "I know and thus my ruling." "BUT BUT BUT", I can understand that frustration on his part. Its not that the ruling was biased. You were unhappy with the ruling itself and thus the repetition and now this thread demanding more punishment above what was levied in the original ruling.
3) As stated previously, antags dunk antags all the time. Its a thing they do to keep heat off sometimes. "Hey sec dude I'm really cool see I dunked that mean traitor. I'm definitely not one myself!" is a common ploy. Its far from unheard of and doesn't really grant you immunity to sec confiscating contraband or punishing you for holding/withholding/carrying it.

Vigilare · Post by **Vigilare** » Wed Jan 21, 2015 9:41 pm #61316

yeah, I said 'I will torture you as nonharmfully as possible. maybe with an electropack.' or something to that effect; the non-harmful bit was so the borg didn't go all law one on me. and electropacks aren't even harmful (well, except on chairs), they just knock you down forever.

Raven776 wrote:Lockering a body that you could instead borg (or do any other number of things with) is awful.

Raven776 wrote:that you could instead borg

and now I'm actually regretting killing her, 'cause a secborg would've helped immensely.

damn.

(also I did ask for logs, but I was told they were too much trouble to get, and there was too much admin blahblah in the logs that would've had to be deleted)
(basically 'no you can't have logs they're hard to get sorry', is why I couldn't provide logs)

Gamarr · Post by **Gamarr** » Wed Jan 21, 2015 10:59 pm #61328

danno wrote:I don't see a problem with what I did, and neither does the admin that handled the case. Stay salty.

No. Just because you didn't get meted out a punishment (though the fact you still see absolutely no wrong in keeping a dangerous weapon is a serious symptom of bad playstyle) doesn't mean I also didn't see a problem in what you, the other two assistants, and the detective did. I straight out told the lot of you, individually, that while IC, the whole damn situation should not have even occurred and the actions of all parties involved was bad.

Everything would not have happened if Tessa and Jane hadn't kept blatantly dangerous shit and snubbed security because you think he's incompetent. I've said this I don't know how many times.

You want the authority to do that kind of stuff, transfer into security or get a bodyguard position to a head.

danno · Post by **danno** » Wed Jan 21, 2015 11:06 pm #61331

I'm still not talking about keeping the sword. I'm talking about how I didn't fuck with sec (until the end) nor greytide.

Vigilare · Post by **Vigilare** » Wed Jan 21, 2015 11:11 pm #61334

the act of keeping the sword, in combination with the snubbing, was the greytide attitude
like the only non-sec/command I'd ever consider letting keep the esword would be someone in RnD, and even then I'd stand there and watch them deconstruct it

in future I shall go for less lethal options before execution
and in future you shall (hopefully) not be such a shitler every time someone you don't like plays sec

... because
that's called metagrudging
and
it's against the rules
*penny drop*

danno · Post by **danno** » Wed Jan 21, 2015 11:19 pm #61337

You really going to go there?
You played an entirely new character. I had no idea it was you until Knaive said so in OOC after the round was over.
You know what really slays me about it
I thought for a moment it might be you during the round
and then you started going [[ahelpinh stop
and I was like "ahahah nah even vigilare isn't this retarded. can't be them."
I was CONVINCED it wasn't you, just some shitty new cop. I thought for SURE it was someone's first time as security.

You want to go down the metagrudge route? You're the only one in the scenario who knew who was who.
Absolutely retarded.

for real how many more straight up lies are they going to tell without repercussion

Vigilare · Post by **Vigilare** » Wed Jan 21, 2015 11:37 pm #61342

alright, fair point

in future, you shall (hopefully) not be such a shitler every time sec doesn't fellate jane's 'throbbing futa cock' [sic] tells you off for antagonising them
because no, running away from sec does not make you
a. cool, tacti- or otherwise
b. badass
c. robust
d. a good person

it does make you
a. an ass
b. reviled and loathed (and lynched)
c. get ban-requested
d. a bad person

it's really not astrophysics
like I can spell it out in short words if you need it

danno · Post by **danno** » Wed Jan 21, 2015 11:39 pm #61343

I don't know why you would possibly think I would listen to a word you say in regards to my behaviour
I have negative respect for you
I think you were awful
Why would I ever listen to you

Comrade Leo · Post by **Comrade Leo** » Wed Jan 21, 2015 11:51 pm #61345

2) An admin being exasperated with you does no mark a "bias." It denotes that the admin in question is exasperated with you or the process of dealing with your claim. Since this particular case became a case of "This is the ruling" "BUT BUT BUT" "I know and thus my ruling." "BUT BUT BUT", I can understand that frustration on his part. Its not that the ruling was biased. You were unhappy with the ruling itself and thus the repetition and now this thread demanding more punishment above what was levied in the original ruling.

Which is why I made this fnr.

3) As stated previously, antags dunk antags all the time. Its a thing they do to keep heat off sometimes. "Hey sec dude I'm really cool see I dunked that mean traitor. I'm definitely not one myself!" is a common ploy. Its far from unheard of and doesn't really grant you immunity to sec confiscating contraband or punishing you for holding/withholding/carrying it.

You missed the point of the paragraph entirely. Reread it. This FNR is about excessive punishment being dished out, far exceeding the crime, and without proper authorisation.

Vigilare wrote: I'm not even going to bother replying to the rest, but this bit perfectly encapsulates just why they were given perma

You aren't going to reply to my post because you can't back up a single one of your claims. Nor can you disprove mine.

antags are there to make the round fun, to do antaggy things - executing them (and therefore giving them no chance at getting back in the round) for doing their job is uncool

non-antags who act antaggy, on the other hand, are only doing it to screw with sec, and they get execution (because any other option and they'll keep doing it)
you were the latter.

Do I have to keep quoting the rules, or are you simply too dense to understand them? Secondly, Not antagy in the slightest. Considering you can't fathom a counter-argument. The rules say otherwise. Excessive punishment that didn't fit the crime. Execution is not exclusive.

(one of who escaped because I was too busy dealing with jane's esword stunt)

Another lie. A different antag busted him out. While you were in the brig.

Everything would not have happened if Tessa and Jane hadn't kept blatantly dangerous shit and snubbed security because you think he's incompetent.

Actually no, I was gonna turn in the bombs, until he told me he was going to torture me. But I will agree that I think he is incompetent now.

Vigilare wrote:alright, fair point

in future, you shall (hopefully) not be such a shitler every time sec doesn't fellate jane's 'throbbing futa cock' [sic] tells you off for antagonising them
because no, running away from sec does not make you
a. cool, tacti- or otherwise
b. badass
c. robust
d. a good person

it does make you
a. an ass
b. reviled and loathed (and lynched)
c. get ban-requested
d. a bad person

it's really not astrophysics
like I can spell it out in short words if you need it

Shitpost in your own FNR.

Timbrewolf · Post by **Timbrewolf** » Thu Jan 22, 2015 5:46 am #61437

Couple quick things:

1) Undeleted Vekter's post. The An0n3 amendment was ratified, the rules for the FNR subforum were updated weeks ago. His post is on topic, remarking on the typical operating procedure for executions.

2) While nobody has confirmed whether a Captain was available to sanction the execution or not, if Vigilare asked the permission of the admins to make sure it would be okay first given the circumstances then we have to assume it's valid. Given the situation, where people are purposely withholding known traitor items and stuffing the acting HoS into the brig at times it's akin to dealing with a mutiny or impromptu revolution. It doesn't seem like he was left with a lot of options to try to regain control of the station.

3) I'm curious what sort of shortage of personnel would cause the detective to jump up to HoS authority without any kind of confirmation or announcement? Where was the Captain or HoP in all of this? You shouldn't just notice the HoS is missing, break into his office and still his stuff and crown yourself the new HoS. That's not how that's supposed to work and, if that's what happened, it might be worth reconsidering this situation from the perspective of a crew who is being lorded over by a guy who isn't who he says he is.

4) If four admins came to the same consensus at the time this happened that's a pretty solid judgement.

I'm reading and re-reading over the above posts to try to get a more complete sense of what's going on, but in the mean time after one read-through that's my sentiment on the matter.

EDIT: This plays on what is kind of the expected gameplay as it has traditionally been and what is clearly written in the rules. Kind of an old-vs-new thing here. While the HoS can confiscate traitor items it's not something I've seen happen often. Very typically if you dunk a traitor you're welcome to his goodies with the understanding that a random joe might see you waving your cool new esword around, mistake you for a traitor, and kill you over it. And thus the esword gets passed to a new holder and the cycle repeats. Or whatever.

I have to say as a sec player I usually don't care, I'm more grateful for the help keeping the station safe so if Tommy Robust the Antag Slayer wants to proudly wear the esword he slapped out of a traitor's hands and killed them with then so be it. It's not unheard of for people to ask others to hand those things over but it's much more common for people to just let them keep it.

....buuuuuuut they can ask for it back, since having that stuff is technically a crime, otherwise everyone would just esword a random person to death and proudly claim over the radio that they killed a traitor and took all his goodies and don't worry about it and nobody would be able to say otherwise.

DOUBLE EDIT: I wouldn't call this situation an example of grey tiding. Not based on the testimonies here from the parties involved anyway.

danno · Post by **danno** » Thu Jan 22, 2015 6:34 am #61465

The issue during the round is one thing, and if it's resolved I'm glad, but they've been blatantly lying to admins in BOTH of their threads in FNR. That can't be kosher.

e: This ban req should also not just be about this particular round, but about them as a security player in general. There are other people who want to post who have strong opinions on this.

Stickymayhem · Post by **Stickymayhem** » Thu Jan 22, 2015 7:22 am #61494

I've been having a go through the logs and it seems to me that at best this is shitcurity and at worst metagrudging. From the situation there doesn't appear to be any justification for an execution.

What's more disturbing to me is their intent on killing them instead of arresting. This was a pre-meditated murder on someone who had actually caused no harm to them, as well as exaggerating and misrepresenting the situation to an admin.

Spoiler:

Looking at this original ahelp, it appears that they really wanted to exaggerate the situation as badly as possible, going so far as to connect the messed up office with the explosives. Gamarr, understandably, believes him as some tables have been deconstructed.

Spoiler:

Which isn't corrected as it should have been.

Spoiler:

Similarly Jane 'fighting' security is exaggerating the situation well beyond what actually happened, a non-lethal taze and run.

Spoiler:

So from the AdminPMs it's clear gamarr misinterpreted the situation from vigilare's description of it. Partly his own fault for not being thorough but it's easy to have been convinced by how he was contacted and the situation was phrased.

From some of the IC logs:

Spoiler:

It simply looks to me that Vigilare was angry and wanted them dead, particularly Jane. Considering they knew Jane's OOC identity but not the reverse, it's more likely they were metagrudging than Jane was. I also disagree with Gamarr's statement that Perma is equivalent to execution. This isn't always the case, and perma/execution in this instance wasn't really appropriate considering the Detective provoked them throughout the round and despite Jane's actions demonstrating that she was fucking up traitors, decided he wanted to gut her anyway. They all but lied in adminpms and lied throughout this thread. I think they deserve a security ban.

It's also worth noting that on lower population Badger rounds, security really shouldn't be this brutal for no real reason. I've seen a lot of testimony that this is commonplace when vigilare is in charge, so it may be worth hearing some more from people who've witnessed this kind of behaviour in other circumstances.

Shadowlight213 · Thu Jan 22, 2015 9:12 am

Ok. I was the borg for that round, Starlight. Just noticed this thread, so I might be late with this.
As for not obeying my laws, I will say I was extremely confused the whole time. I likely had the part of silicon policy of don't fuck with security unless you know exactly what's going on at the front of my brain, and I was just sitting there watching the medhud looking for any harm being done. I'm pretty sure pepper spray doesn't actually do any harm, and besides, I was an engiborg. I couldn't due anything due to flashes being nerfed to the point of uselessness.
From what little I saw of the engagement, I didn't suspect that widens was out to kill you. I will be honest, I kind of tend to ignore people's call for help when they are being arrested as a silicon, unless they are like in orange or sec is harmbatoning them, I'll whisk them to medbay. As I said, I came by, looked at the situation, and didn't notice any immediately obvious harm. I honestly didn't even know you got executed.
I was actually seeing widens as the victim throughout the whole ordeal, as I witnessed the brigging by Jane, who was being a major shit to him, but I was super confused on if I could interfere or not. To be fair, a number of the crew were taunting him over the radio, so I assumed that everyone was going to be fucking with sec. I know for a fact that the sec windows were broken multiple times.
I'm not sure if execution was the right option, but honestly, perma and brigging was out of the question at that point, as Jane had shown, not only her ability, but her willingness to break people out and brig the detective instead. Which is likely why he stripped your headset, as he knew Jane would rush to free you.
I usually wait untill I see the harm being done, or hear about it from multiple sources to confirm it, in order to act upon it. Just for clarification, I consider harm anything actually does detectable damage, so electropack torture does not violate Law one in my interpretation as that does no damage. (correct me if I'm wrong on this)

Raven776 · Post by **Raven776** » Thu Jan 22, 2015 11:38 am #61559

Security in low population rounds is generally a lax thing for numerous reasons...

1) There are less people breaking laws and anything blatantly broken gets fixed quickly by mostly volunteers, so brigging that assitant earlier will make them less likely to fix the hole in security's floor.

2) There are so few players that taking one that's doing nothing but breaking space law out of the round is awful.

3) The actual greytiders generally get bored and elevate their shit to murder and get banned. The valid hunters generally get bored and hop out an airlock.

4) If someone's going to murder half of the station, there's not much you can do to stop them once they're started. It's best to pay attention to actual problems instead of arguing with someone over small things.

Bombs and an esword would have made for a kickass mining start. I can't really tell you how many times I've been in a round and begged the HoS for the traitor's double Esword to kill goliaths. Those tools can go to great use somewhere else. Saying 'They belong to a traitor, no!' is just awful.

Comrade Leo · Post by **Comrade Leo** » Thu Jan 22, 2015 11:54 am #61561

palpatine213 wrote:snippen snappen :DDD

Pepperspray I think does do harm, as it showed on my hud that my head area had taken damage when it was used (it's definitely does stam damage to red). A coder can confirm that though.

As for electropack that would depend on the definition of harm to a borg, whether or not psychological harm (due to torture) is valid in that sense.

You also seem to be mistaken that I, had at any point intended to griffon widens, and when someone else had done so, tarred me with the same brush by association.

What I will say in response is, I gave you a Law 2 order to broadcast to the station to tell them I was being executed. I also screamed at you while I was in the first cell, that I was going to be executed which your Law 1 response, was to just leave. When you came the second time and I was in the far right cell, was when the execution (he had his Egun out for gods sake) was just about to take place, and I again screamed for you to stop him, you just left silently. Law 1 fail again. Thanks.

peoplearestrange · Thu Jan 22, 2015 3:39 pm

Comrade Leo wrote:
palpatine213 wrote:snippen snappen :DDD
Pepperspray I think does do harm, as it showed on my hud that my head area had taken damage when it was used (it's definitely does stam damage to red). A coder can confirm that though.

As for electropack that would depend on the definition of harm to a borg, whether or not psychological harm (due to torture) is valid in that sense.

Pepper spray and other stamina damage can appear like health lose (in terms of hud display) but this will be regained as stamina is.

As per the AI/silcon laws harm is defined as a lowering of HP (obviously this doesnt include temp stam damage). So I don't believe the electro pack does anything but a knock down. I'm almost certain it doesn't do burn damage like a larger electric shock would do.

Not-Dorsidarf · Thu Jan 22, 2015 4:17 pm

I'm pretty sure the electropack used to do burn damage, something like 5 per shock. Don't know if it still does.

Gamarr · Post by **Gamarr** » Thu Jan 22, 2015 4:59 pm #61622

Shockpacks have not done actual damage for ages. It simply stuns you if it is in your hands or worn on your back when it goes off via the signal frequency. And by 'ages' I mean since I ever came to tg (2+ years now?), it has never been harmful in the sense of the term other than being really bloody annoying if you get hooked up to one.

If it ever has after that time, it was a change that was quickly reverted (which I doubt) or it simply existed a really, really long time ago to the point I wonder where people are even getting this kind of idea from.

They were designed for sec to keep reigns on someone non-lethally, though they don't really work because soon as you let them go back into the station, some other 'civilian' will remove it (non-locking electropaks kinda defeat the point of them imo).

Scones · Post by **Scones** » Thu Jan 22, 2015 5:02 pm #61626

[16:13:21]SAY: Widens-the-Eyes/Vigilare : You can KILL HER for having that.
[16:13:25]SAY: Widens-the-Eyes/Vigilare : You ssshould, actually, becaussse it'sss that illegal.

[16:14:15]SAY: Widens-the-Eyes/Vigilare : Find Jane Wessst and kill her.

If we've moved this into a broader discussion abut Vigilare and his questionable Security behavior, this is entirely indicative of what he does on a regular basis. Look at those two lines from the logs:
>you can kill her
>this MEANS YOU SHOULD DO IT
This is, in my eyes, almost on par with just saying "...But they're valid, why shouldn't I? MUH VALIDS"

Quite a bit of what has already been said in the thread surmises the main issues at hand, but seeing as Sticky is interested in hearing from other people who regularly play alongside Vigilare, I feel I can weigh in on the matter as a semi-frequent Head of Security. This guy is an absolute nightmare to work with: He is the Warden who runs around outside the brig with a riot shield. He is the Officer who permabrigs people without asking. He displays almost every trait of somebody who should not be playing a role with the power to remove people from the round, constantly advocating for excessive/capital punishment for fairly minor crimes. I initially thought this was some bad cop/good cop routine he thought was funny to play with me but after having played enough rounds, it's clear that it goes beyond that and into the realm of "i will arrest you for space law infractions but subsequently violate space law in regards to sentencing because i happen to dislike you"

This is so expected it's almost hilarious in a way - The logs and analysis of them in this thread very clearly show that he twisted the information in his ahelps to deceive an admin despite very obviously metagruding somebody for what I personally feel is an astronomically trivial crime. Is this at all an acceptable attitude for a Detective who has somehow claimed the role of Head of Security? Summary execution for withholding traitor items and reigning you in for being an ass?

As a final note, I'd like to mention what Raven776 said about lowpop Security. As the lone(?) Officer on duty, it is your job to show faith and goodwill, not to be a solo gestapo member dead-set on permabrigging anyone and everyone for offenses that situationally are more or less somewhat minor. Players who act like this are exactly why Security has so much negative stigma around it and removing said players from the department is the most important step to fixing this.

EDIT FOR MORE SHIT: Let's look at the list of CAPITAL CRIMES under Space Law: Specifically, Mutiny, because I'm sure that's what Vigilare will use as his defense.

To act individually, or as a group, to overthrow or subvert the established Chain of Command without lawful and legitimate cause.

He permabrigged someone for shoving him, once, while he was chasing somebody because he was mad that he didn't get the fancy traitor item from someone who had participated in the subduing of an actual enemy of the corporation. Between this and his pretty shitty attitude I think we can throw Mutiny as a charge out the window due to the latter part of the bolded quote.
Additionally, was there a Captain or higher authority in the round? Was this self-authorized?

Vigilare · Post by **Vigilare** » Thu Jan 22, 2015 6:45 pm #61651

There was no Captain, and I've no idea whatsoever where the HoP was during all this; not in the Brig, at least. I asked the new Sec what he thought, he didn't seem to mind.

Palpatine pretty much nailed my attitude towards perma-ing Tessa at that point; there'd be literally no point whatsoever, since Jane would inevitably break her out (and perma me in the process). There was also someone else in perma she could've used to break out with, and a standard brig timer would have been an awful idea, seeing as you could've just said 'hey starlight law two let me out'. ('course, if you were in the brig in the first place, you're probably harmful..)

The 'you can kill her' vs 'you should' was a simplification to explain to the new Sec what was going on; I wasn't sure if he knew what was happening, what with everything going on and all

I perma'd Ty because he was directly responsible for Tessa escaping - he gets the same sentence she would have (at that point), which is perma. I'd have considered letting him out when it all settled down, and I did tell the other Sec to bring Ty in alive if possible - he was the 'least criminal' criminal.

In the end, if someone's going to go out of their way to antagonise sec, sec's going to respond in kind (and this is a good point so remember it now).

(And to be fair, that time with the riot shield was awful and I haven't touched riot armour since (well, except that one alien round, but aliens) - I do learn from my experiences. as Warden, I pretty much never leave the brig now unless I have to, and the riot gear stays where it belongs. teleshield is cooler anyway

I do go for the good-cop, bad-cop routine, true, but it's a valid idea - one officer threatens the flashes and peppersprays, the other offers early sentences. antag's gonna spill all their beans to the second officer (good-cop), leaving the first (bad-cop) free to drag in the crooks. It doesn't get bad-cop many friends (as evidenced here), but it does wonders for good-cop and, most importantly, it works. The one making the arrests should be the one doing the bad-cop; the culprit already dislikes them for bringing them in.)

pepperspray does holodamage and makes people scream - it's not law one damage
electropack knocks you on your ass, which is also not law one damage
(I was careful not to actually damage anyone in front of the borg, because law one and lizards don't work well)

As for vaguely HoS-ial duties, I would've made an official Announcement from the console but my starting ID didn't have access, and I was a little occupied to be waiting at the HoP line for an ID upgrade.

I do admit that executing Tessa was, although justified, a bit too much - there were other alternatives I hadn't considered, as I've already said, and (as I've also already said) I'm sorry we couldn't come up with a better option at the time.

As Raven said, tater items do have other uses. I'd be fine with letting anyone keep noslips or (if I'm feeling generous) a champroj or something. Cargo can have an emag swipe for their console (so long as sec gets to rifle through the syndie stuff first). A miner could convince me to give them minibombs, sure; if their reasoning was good enough, an esword for goliaths would be fine too (but I'd expect to see it every time they returned, because esword). But an Assistant and an Atmos Tech have no place using eswords/minibombs respectively; deadly weapons like those belong in the armory, where all the other deadly weapons are. The contraband locker is a thing. Even if you do dunk a tater, that doesn't give you a right to keep their stuff beyond using it to subdue them - steal their ebow? Sure, shoot them down when they try and run. But you don't get to keep deadly weapons when Sec says no.

Tasing Sec /is/ fighting them, and stripping and throwing them in perma is definitely so - see guncargo policy regarding cargo fighting back. Same principle; you can't strip and detain Sec when they try and take your illegals.

As for the accusations of lying to the admins, I completely refute those - due to the ambiguous wording, my statement was interpreted as 'Tessa stole bombs and destroyed the Det's [with the bombs]', rather than 'Tessa stole bombs and [separately] destroyed the Det's'. Apologies for any confusion this might've caused, but it most certainly wasn't malicious - rather, it was just the lack of a comma.
'Tessa stole bombs, and destroyed the Det's'
vs
'Tessa stole bombs and destroyed the Det's'
it's pretty damn easy to make a typo like that and not notice (I should've realised when Gamarr said 'blowing up', but I didn't connect it at the time)

Comrade Leo · Post by **Comrade Leo** » Thu Jan 22, 2015 7:15 pm #61664

There was no Captain, and I've no idea whatsoever where the HoP was during all this; not in the Brig, at least. I asked the new Sec what he thought, he didn't seem to mind.

Palpatine pretty much nailed my attitude towards perma-ing Tessa at that point; there'd be literally no point whatsoever, since Jane would inevitably break her out (and perma me in the process). There was also someone else in perma she could've used to break out with, and a standard brig timer would have been an awful idea, seeing as you could've just said 'hey starlight law two let me out'. ('course, if you were in the brig in the first place, you're probably harmful..)

The 'you can kill her' vs 'you should' was a simplification to explain to the new Sec what was going on; I wasn't sure if he knew what was happening, what with everything going on and all

I perma'd Ty because he was directly responsible for Tessa escaping - he gets the same sentence she would have (at that point), which is perma. I'd have considered letting him out when it all settled down, and I did tell the other Sec to bring Ty in alive if possible - he was the 'least criminal' criminal.

In the end, if someone's going to go out of their way to antagonise sec, sec's going to respond in kind (and this is a good point so remember it now).

(And to be fair, that time with the riot shield was awful and I haven't touched riot armour since (well, except that one alien round, but aliens) - I do learn from my experiences. as Warden, I pretty much never leave the brig now unless I have to, and the riot gear stays where it belongs. teleshield is cooler anyway

I do go for the good-cop, bad-cop routine, true, but it's a valid idea - one officer threatens the flashes and peppersprays, the other offers early sentences. antag's gonna spill all their beans to the second officer (good-cop), leaving the first (bad-cop) free to drag in the crooks. It doesn't get bad-cop many friends (as evidenced here), but it does wonders for good-cop and, most importantly, it works. The one making the arrests should be the one doing the bad-cop; the culprit already dislikes them for bringing them in.)

pepperspray does holodamage and makes people scream - it's not law one damage
electropack knocks you on your ass, which is also not law one damage
(I was careful not to actually damage anyone in front of the borg, because law one and lizards don't work well)

All that damage control. How much do you want to keep changing your story?

As for vaguely HoS-ial duties, I would've made an official Announcement from the console but my starting ID didn't have access, and I was a little occupied to be waiting at the HoP line for an ID upgrade.

And so carried this on by not announcing after getting an upgrade. Which you should never have had in the first place, because there was NO reason for it.

I do admit that executing Tessa was, although justified, a bit too much - there were other alternatives I hadn't considered, as I've already said, and (as I've also already said) I'm sorry we couldn't come up with a better option at the time.

You keep saying this, yet haven't offered a argument as to why you in your misguided opinion is or ever was justified.

As for the accusations of lying to the admins, I completely refute those - due to the ambiguous wording, my statement was interpreted as 'Tessa stole bombs and destroyed the Det's [with the bombs]', rather than 'Tessa stole bombs and [separately] destroyed the Det's'. Apologies for any confusion this might've caused, but it most certainly wasn't malicious - rather, it was just the lack of a comma.
'Tessa stole bombs, and destroyed the Det's'
vs
'Tessa stole bombs and destroyed the Det's'
it's pretty damn easy to make a typo like that and not notice (I should've realised when Gamarr said 'blowing up', but I didn't connect it at the time)

So Ty Andrews, Jane West and Tessa Rosa are pretty much greytiding,

We weren't. You were lying. Greytide implies explicitly going out of our way to annoy the shit out of security. When all we did was hold on to contraband.

Jane stole an energy sword and is running away with it....Tessa stole bombs and destroyed the Detectives's Office

'Stealing' implies we went out of our way to thieve the item from someones possession, when we had really only confiscated them from a tator as we were robusting them. You office wasn't destroyed, just the tables unwrenched.
You worded your ahelp intentionally to make us look like ultimate shitlers and greytiders.

now blowing up dets office is another matter, lemme look.

If you didn't mean it in this fashion, why did you not correct him?

I'm just rehashing what Sticky said now basically, and you haven't attempted to answer him either.

Vigilare · Post by **Vigilare** » Thu Jan 22, 2015 7:58 pm #61680

danno wrote:I don't know why you would possibly think I would listen to a word you say in regards to my behaviour
I have negative respect for you
I think you were awful
Why would I ever listen to you

forgot to reply to this one
"I don't know why I should listen to you because I don't like you and that makes your points invalid"
https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/ad-hominem

Comrade Leo wrote:All that damage control. How much do you want to keep changing your story?

it's all the truth, the whole truth, nothing but the truth, etc etc etc

And so carried this on by not announcing after getting an upgrade. Which you should never have had in the first place, because there was NO reason for it.

It was getting to the point where I'd have declared code red if it wouldn't have taken forever. (Keycard authentication devices take forever, it's 100% true.)
Sounds like pretty good reason.

You keep saying this, yet haven't offered a argument as to why you in your misguided opinion is or ever was justified.

Because stealing (and yes, it is theft) illegal weapons and causing a ridiculously long manhunt is, in fact, a crime
Several crimes
I'm not going to touch 'mutiny' because I was only acting HoS (insert 'gas the lizards' here). What I am going to cite, however (and these are all yours, not Jane's)...
... is theft, which is a crime
... is possession of explosives, which is also a crime
... is possession of a restricted weapon, which is also a crime
... is resisting arrest, which is a crime too
... is sparking a half-hour long manhunt, which is... a crime
... is distribution of contraband, which isn't a crime according to space law, though I guess it comes under 'creating a workplace hazard'.
(I'm not including the detective's office prank because it was actually pretty funny, but it's major trespass and vandalism for +6 minutes)

When you get to the point where you have a thirty-three-minute (thirty-nine if you count my office) brig timer per Space Law, plus multiple warnings... yeah, that's why it was justified.

We weren't. You were lying. Greytide implies explicitly going out of our way to annoy the shit out of security. When all we did was hold on to contraband.

'Explicitly going out of our way to annoy the shit out of security'
*cough*permabrig*cough*
*cough*office*cough*
*cough*maint*cough*

I seem to have an awful cough right now.

'Stealing' implies we went out of our way to thieve the item from someones possession, when we had really only confiscated them from a tator as we were robusting them. You office wasn't destroyed, just the tables unwrenched.

It becomes theft when you refuse to hand them over, and run away. It becomes theft when you have no legitimate use for them, but take them anyway and don't hand them in when requested. It becomes theft when Sec has to chase you for half the round to get them back.
Destroying the tables is... yeah, that's destruction. It's not quite on the level of 'loose singularity' DESTRUCTION, but it's still destruction nonetheless.

You worded your ahelp intentionally to make us look like ultimate shitlers and greytiders.

You didn't need my help with that.

If you didn't mean it in this fashion, why did you not correct him?

I'm just rehashing what Sticky said now basically, and you haven't attempted to answer him either.

This^, is a valid point. Also one I have an answer for. I didn't correct him because;
a) I wasn't concentrating as hard as I should've been on his exact wording
b) therefore I didn't realise he thought you used explosives to blow up my office, rather than just trashing the tables
c) I was too busy dealing with everything else that was going on, to apply close literary analysis to an admin PM
d) Admin PMs (especially replying to them) make my BYOND lag, and by the time it recovered it was at the top of the chat screen

I haven't attempted to answer Sticky yet because I'm going through this all a bit at a time, and replying to the torrential volumes of posts coming my way is a little difficult. You both said the same thing, however, so ^there's my answer.

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Thu Jan 22, 2015 8:30 pm #61690

If you guys are gonna go the direction of quoting yourlogicalfallacyis.com at eachother, i'd suggest this entire argument be closed.

Scones · Post by **Scones** » Thu Jan 22, 2015 8:46 pm #61696

Saegrimr wrote:If you guys are gonna go the direction of quoting yourlogicalfallacyis.com at eachother, i'd suggest this entire argument be closed.

Vigilare, stop, we don't need to devolve to that level

Do you fail to see how this was an improper escalation by you? People loot someone they robust, you get buttblasted over not having first pick of the loot, and in your own words, started a '30 minute manhunt' over it, culminating in execution/permanent sentences for pretty shit reasons.

Somebody shoving you while you go on validquest for a greyshirt with legitimately obtained loot is hardly perma-worthy

Just accept that you were in the wrong here, and I might feel somewhat more sympathetic. But as it stands? You just sound like an asshole who refuses to see the clearly defined issues in front of you

And finally? 'Bad cop' is an act. You are just shitty cop, and sadly, it seems to be genuine

Comrade Leo · Post by **Comrade Leo** » Thu Jan 22, 2015 9:21 pm #61702

It was getting to the point where I'd have declared code red if it wouldn't have taken forever. (Keycard authentication devices take forever, it's 100% true.)
Sounds like pretty good reason.

I snipped most of your reply because it's quite literally the same argument as before, despite you being told multiple times you are wrong. As for that gem above, you are quite literally retarded. An announcement. Anything. Like on the RADIO you forgot existed or I dunno on the HoS announcement system that only required HoS access. You didn't need to code red at all to simply tell us you were the HoS, not that you had the authority to promote yourself anyway.

Because stealing (and yes, it is theft) ....

Already been established it wasn't theft. You sparked the panic and manhunt not us.

'Explicitly going out of our way to annoy the shit out of security'
*cough*permabrig*cough*
*cough*office*cough*
*cough*maint*cough*

I seem to have an awful cough right now.

Must be all that bullshit stuck in your throat.

'S
It becomes theft when you refuse to hand them over, and run away. It becomes theft when you have no legitimate use for them, but take them anyway and don't hand them in when requested. It becomes theft when Sec has to chase you for half the round to get them back.
Destroying the tables is... yeah, that's destruction. It's not quite on the level of 'loose singularity' DESTRUCTION, but it's still destruction nonetheless.

I don't think you understand what theft means.

You worded your ahelp intentionally to make us look like ultimate shitlers and greytiders.
You didn't need my help with that.

This guy.

If you didn't mean it in this fashion, why did you not correct him?

I'm just rehashing what Sticky said now basically, and you haven't attempted to answer him either.
This^, is a valid point. Also one I have an answer for. I didn't correct him because;
a) I wasn't concentrating as hard as I should've been on his exact wording
b) therefore I didn't realise he thought you used explosives to blow up my office, rather than just trashing the tables
c) I was too busy dealing with everything else that was going on, to apply close literary analysis to an admin PM
d) Admin PMs (especially replying to them) make my BYOND lag, and by the time it recovered it was at the top of the chat screen

I haven't attempted to answer Sticky yet because I'm going through this all a bit at a time, and replying to the torrential volumes of posts coming my way is a little difficult. You both said the same thing, however, so ^there's my answer.

Not as if you aren't cherry picking who or what to reply to or anything. Protip: Use a shovel for deeper holes.

danno · Post by **danno** » Fri Jan 23, 2015 12:17 am #61753

Vigilare wrote:
danno wrote:I don't know why you would possibly think I would listen to a word you say in regards to my behaviour
I have negative respect for you
I think you were awful
Why would I ever listen to you
forgot to reply to this one
"I don't know why I should listen to you because I don't like you and that makes your points invalid"
https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/ad-hominem

in regards to your opinion of me as a player? Yes, the fact that I don't respect you or your opinion of me as a player makes your opinion of me as a player invalid, unrelated to the happenings of the round.
>linking yourlogicalfallacyis
wowwww you got me dude

As for the accusations of lying to the admins, I completely refute those - due to the ambiguous wording, my statement was interpreted as 'Tessa stole bombs and destroyed the Det's [with the bombs]', rather than 'Tessa stole bombs and [separately] destroyed the Det's'. Apologies for any confusion this might've caused, but it most certainly wasn't malicious - rather, it was just the lack of a comma.
'Tessa stole bombs, and destroyed the Det's'
vs
'Tessa stole bombs and destroyed the Det's'
it's pretty damn easy to make a typo like that and not notice (I should've realised when Gamarr said 'blowing up', but I didn't connect it at the time)

This is shit. It doesn't take a detective (aheh) to figure out that they're bullshitting here.

it's all the truth, the whole truth, nothing but the truth, etc etc etc

You tell a new lie in every post you make it's getting ridiculous
You literally, word for word, told people earlier of a make-believe round where I had killed the warden FNR as a non-antag
Can someone please make it clear that lying in FNR threads is a bad thing that gets punished??

e: Forgot to talk about the borg again. Being confused is one thing, but they dragged around someone in crit, who was being beaten to death, and instead of getting them to medical brought them to the brig to be beaten to death. I don't think you can explain that in any way other than a conscious violation of their laws.

Shadowlight213 · Sat Jan 24, 2015 1:29 am

Not dragging you to medbay was a stupid panic driven decision on my part. Basically, when I saw you getting attacked, my only thoughts were "Get her to safety! Get her somewhere secure." My mind thought Brig safety > Medbay safety. A stupid decision I know. I tried to bolt the door, but they managed to get in before it closed.
I wasn't trying to defy my laws. I had NO way to stun the detective, or stop him without breaking law 1. It was a split second decision that was the wrong choice, and I apologize for that.

Vigilare · Post by **Vigilare** » Sat Jan 24, 2015 3:13 pm #62282

(you're allowed to fire extinguisher non-humans if they're a threat to humans, by the way - lizards don't get protection from law one
they get protection from rule 1 though, so you can't run up to your nearest scalie and kill 'em for no raisins
and if they prevent human harm by their existence (e.g M.D lizard) they can claim law one and maybe get away with it)

I don't recall anyone being dragged in crit into the Brig, but my memory's not the best - when was this? I know Jane was dragged into the shuttle brig at the end, and the borg did try to flash us, but sec shades

danno · Post by **danno** » Mon Jan 26, 2015 1:40 pm #63025

I still do not feel like the issues Sticky brought up have been resolved or even examined.

Comrade Leo · Post by **Comrade Leo** » Mon Jan 26, 2015 2:13 pm #63034

danno wrote:I still do not feel like the issues Sticky brought up have been resolved or even examined.

That's because he is cherry picking what to reply to because he has no real counter-argument to his shitness.

Post by **Vekter** » Mon Jan 26, 2015 5:42 pm #63092

Guys, this is getting out of hand. If you can't discuss the matter while being civil we're going to have to lock the thread.

You've had two admins chime in on it, if you don't have anything else to say about it then let things be and we'll move on, otherwise please try to keep it civil.

danno · Post by **danno** » Mon Jan 26, 2015 5:57 pm #63102

I don't think that what Comrade said was unreasonable considering the amount of misleading and outright lying Vigilare has done here. But alright.

Timbrewolf · Post by **Timbrewolf** » Mon Jan 26, 2015 6:33 pm #63125

His actions were ruled IC at the time, by apparently four admins. I don't see any changes to the circumstances described here that would necessitate overruling that.