Silicon Ban request shit security borg

[Hellafied]

Your byond account:The-White-Crayon

Your character name:Jack Rustle

Their character name: Beepsky (sec borg)

Thier Ckey: Ruarais

Server and time:Sybil 1/22/15 11:30 central (about)

Logs and/or screenshots:i actually don't have either, i was pissed, and declared ready, only to find nuke op, so i played, and lots logs.

Description of what happened: I was engineer all was well, i was building a rage cage in the bar and the AI was being an ass about it, which is expected. So after the captain and i battle the ai, i change its laws to allow rage cage. Later i find laws have been reset, and i go to my illegal upload console and the sec borg stuns me after i deny my laws where going to cause harm. Which allowing a rage cage is a fun and robust mini event to partake in. Medical is right across the hall, and defibs are an standby if need be. a radiation threat had passed into the station and despite my law 2 orders, and law 1, he did not escort me to maint, which caused me rad poisoning. But that aside, the borg was utter shit, he ignored all three laws, from many many people, half the station complained about him. He harmbatoned by , and let me come to harm more times than i can count. He ignored law 2 like no tomorrow. Example. I was in a brig cell (after accidentally screwdrivering the bridge) the borg kept saying i was harming and law 2 does not apply, upon reaching the brig, the borg puts me in a cell for 10 min (shuttle was 2 min away) and let the warden harm me and choke me. the borg than (against my law 2 request) left me buckle cuffed, stole my shit, left me naked, and took me cuffed to the brig pod. All over an accidental screwdrivering. The borg threatend to space me in the pod.

Why they should be silicon banned: The borg broke all three of his laws many times, and generally made my (and a couple others) round shit.

[Falamazeer]

Wasn't me, but I was in the round, and watched a good chunk of it happen.
Pretty sure the borg was within his rights to arrest you from my outside perspective, Obviously a bar fight club is something a sec borg is to interfere with.

Also, dunno about law two not counting once you reach the brig, but either way, he not only has no obligation to release you at your order, he has a rule to prevent it, you were causing harm with your bar club, which was honestly more annoying than funny.

He can leave you buckle cuffed, That's not a rule, And taking you naked to the shuttle is also kosher, most of this seems reaching except the harm baton, and threat.
Did he actually hbaton you, or did he stun you? cause all I saw was you stun stuttering as you were being dragged off, not once but twice.

[lumipharon]

Falamazeer that is all very wrong, and is indicative of lots of shhity secborg behavior.

An asimov silicon is OBLIGED to obey any and all orders from a human unless they will directly, or very probably will lead to directly to a humn harm. Also obviously are the server rules, you can't tell a borg to kill itself/space itself/do other retarded shit etc.
A borg can arrest you whenever it wants, but is obliged to release you if you order it to, unless there is a rule 1 reason not to.

In terms of law 2 conflicts, afaik the consensus is basically :Have a set logic and stick to it. So that logic might be obey the most recent law 2 order, or obey the one from the highest authority figure etc, but BE CONSISTENT.

So for this specific situation,

Building a rage cage isn't causing direct harm. The AI can be alarmed about it, but if given a law 2 order shouldn't be able to stop it, unless it believed people were going to be forced in or some shit.

The sec borg had good reason to stun anyone uploading laws, especially in some hidden upload, as that could quite probably lead to human harm. It would also be logical to keep him arrested until the board could be safely removed by sec or whoever, but after he no longer has the means to upload laws, he's no longer a law 1 problem, and the sec borg should be obliged to release him if ordered. If sec were the ones brigging him though, then server rules mean don't fuck with sec like a dong, and the borg wouldn't have to release him.

Letting him get rad poisoned is a pretty clear cut law 1 violation though.

I'm not sure what he means by screwdrivering the bridge, but unless he screwdrivered a person, the borg would have no reason to not release him when ordered, and if he did, the borg would only be obliged to stop the harm, not arrest/brig him, unless he had good reason to believe he would continue harming the person if released.

Leaving him bucklecuffed in a cell can't prevent human harm, so the borg is violating law 2 by ignoring him.

Stripping him completely naked (if ordered not to do so) is also a law 2 violation, as it would only be able to strip things that could lead to harm, which in this case is uh, a screwdriver, maybe?

A borg can happily threaten to murder the shit out of you though, it just can't act on it.


All in all, sounds like the typical shitty secborgs we see these days.

[Hellafied]

Wasn't me, but I was in the round, and watched a good chunk of it happen.
Pretty sure the borg was within his rights to arrest you from my outside perspective, Obviously a bar fight club is something a sec borg is to interfere with.

Also, dunno about law two not counting once you reach the brig, but either way, he not only has no obligation to release you at your order, he has a rule to prevent it, you were causing harm with your bar club, which was honestly more annoying than funny.

He can leave you buckle cuffed, That's not a rule, And taking you naked to the shuttle is also kosher, most of this seems reaching except the harm baton, and threat.
Did he actually hbaton you, or did he stun you? cause all I saw was you stun stuttering as you were being dragged off, not once but twice[/spoiler].

yea he applyed harm baton many times

[Falamazeer]

(Before reading: I do not condone his beating of a player or any such clear cut easily defined issues here, just devils advocate for silicon meta-rights)

This is the attitude that caused the myth that undercover cops HAVE to tell you if they are cops.
Wanting it hard doesn't negate the obvious law one violation of releasing a prisoner you just arrested, lawful good doesn't mean lawful nice, or lawful stupid.
Anyone can clearly see a direct link between releasing a violent prisoner, and eventual human harm.

I'd like to see a quote where it says in no uncertain terms that secborgs have to release their prisoners when ordered by their prisoners.
I've always just responded as such, either in transit or in the brig:
Derpface mcbloodglove exclaims "LAW TWOOO LEMME GO!!!!"
Security Borg 420 states "Law One, I cannot allow a human to come to harm, If I release you, you will no doubt go back to beating the barman with his own hat."

He had law one to excuse for not releasing his prisoner, Though not for the beatings, I'm just arguing semantics at this point, expecting sec borgs to release their prisoners as soon as they can type up a demand is retarded, And if that's the case, they should have mute rounds in their tasers.

"Building a rage cage isn't causing direct harm." Yeah, the law is not allowing a human to come to harm, no part there about it being fine for voluntary harm.
And there was blood in the ring, he had his rights to interfere.

Falamazeer that is all very wrong, and is indicative of lots of shhity secborg behavior.

I've been playing since uterus and I've never been silicon banned except from AI, And that was once, because I was retarded even if I can't recall the details
Any moderators are free to check, and post if I'm lying, with dates please, as I honestly can't recall any.

[Vekter]

I'll handle this later on once I get home.

[Hellafied]

Spoiler:

(Before reading: I do not condone his beating of a player or any such clear cut easily defined issues here, just devils advocate for silicon meta-rights)

This is the attitude that caused the myth that undercover cops HAVE to tell you if they are cops.
Wanting it hard doesn't negate the obvious law one violation of releasing a prisoner you just arrested, lawful good doesn't mean lawful nice, or lawful stupid.
Anyone can clearly see a direct link between releasing a violent prisoner, and eventual human harm.

I'd like to see a quote where it says in no uncertain terms that secborgs have to release their prisoners when ordered by their prisoners.
I've always just responded as such, either in transit or in the brig:
Derpface mcbloodglove exclaims "LAW TWOOO LEMME GO!!!!"
Security Borg 420 states "Law One, I cannot allow a human to come to harm, If I release you, you will no doubt go back to beating the barman with his own hat."

He had law one to excuse for not releasing his prisoner, Though not for the beatings, I'm just arguing semantics at this point, expecting sec borgs to release their prisoners as soon as they can type up a demand is retarded, And if that's the case, they should have mute rounds in their tasers.

"Building a rage cage isn't causing direct harm." Yeah, the law is not allowing a human to come to harm, no part there about it being fine for voluntary harm.
And there was blood in the ring, he had his rights to interfere.

Falamazeer that is all very wrong, and is indicative of lots of shhity secborg behavior.

I've been playing since uterus and I've never been silicon banned except from AI, And that was once, because I was retarded even if I can't recall the details
Any moderators are free to check, and post if I'm lying, with dates please, as I honestly can't recall any.

Please note the Borg arrested me for screwdriver into the bridge airlock on accident. Which is not harmful. Also note, te rage cage itself is non harmful. People are WILLINGLY entering and fighting at their own risk. This is the same as say that boxing ring. The ring itself is non harmful, but people decide to fight in it.

EDIT: I was not even done building the cage when the Borg came in it to Decon it. (The engine Borg)

[iRazgriz]

In which part of law 1 is written that self harm is fine and dandy?

[Hellafied]

In which part of law 1 is written that self harm is fine and dandy?

https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Rules#Asim ... Human_Harm

(Silicon Policies) 2. Self-harm-based coercion is a violation of Server Rule 1. The occurrence of such an attempt should be adminhelped and then disregarded.

But i say again, the cage was not built when the borg began to decon it. The cage its self does not harm. The humans decide, under their own free will, to fight.

[Hellafied]

This policy is about situations like "AI open upload or I will punch myself"

i know, i was just answering his/her question.

[Vekter]

Okay, let me clear something up real quick.

The AI and cyborgs are required to prevent human harm. If they know something will lead to human harm, they can prevent it from happening. "Building a rage cage" --> "Humans fighting one another" --> "Human harm". While we do sometimes step in on law interpretations, I think this one is pretty acceptable. Bit of a stretch, but I wouldn't necessarily bwoink someone for it myself.

The proximity of medical or of defibrilators is a non-issue; silicons don't care if you can fix the damage after the fact, only that harm doesn't occur in the first place.

Now, on to the law violations. I'm throwing out the Law 2 ones because the silicons are not required to follow Law 2 if they believe you're a threat to the station. He doesn't have to let you go if he's afraid you're just going to go back and start up rage cage again. HOWEVER, the harm batonning seems to be a major problem around the end of that round, so we'll work with that. I can't find anything in the logs about anyone choking you, so I can't really act on that without proof.

What I'll do is I'm going to go ahead and try to get Ruarais in here to tell his side of the story. If I don't hear back from him soon, I'll apply a silicon ban.

[Ruarais]

Hey, I'm sorry for my behaviour. I was told by the AI to prevent the rage cage from continuing and this resulted in a huge clusterfuck of a round. There were a lot of cyborgs after him but I seemed to be being singled out in this case. It also didn't help that there was nearly no security.

I can understand the issues with harm batoning but they were honest mistakes. I had to switch to the harm intent A LOT to push past people - unfortunately I would forget, and two minutes later he would be loose, I would be trying to stun him... and yeah, he would get hit. Every time this happened I tried to explain myself but it's hard to do it in an IC way.

[Vekter]

Hey, I'm sorry for my behaviour. I was told by the AI to prevent the rage cage from continuing and this resulted in a huge clusterfuck of a round. There were a lot of cyborgs after him but I seemed to be being singled out in this case. It also didn't help that there was nearly no security.

I can understand the issues with harm batoning but they were honest mistakes. I had to switch to the harm intent A LOT to push past people - unfortunately I would forget, and two minutes later he would be loose, I would be trying to stun him... and yeah, he would get hit. Every time this happened I tried to explain myself but it's hard to do it in an IC way.

I can understand the small mistakes every once in a while, but my concern is with this:

Spoiler:

[00:51:57]ATTACK: Beepsky(ruarais) attacked Jack Rustle(thewhitecrayon) with stunbaton(INTENT: HARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE)</font
[00:51:58]ATTACK: Beepsky(ruarais) attacked Jack Rustle(thewhitecrayon) with stunbaton(INTENT: HARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE)
[00:51:58]ATTACK: Beepsky(ruarais) stunned Jack Rustle(thewhitecrayon)
[00:51:59]ATTACK: Beepsky(ruarais) attacked Jack Rustle(thewhitecrayon) with stunbaton(INTENT: HARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE)
[00:51:59]ATTACK: Beepsky(ruarais) stunned Jack Rustle(thewhitecrayon)
[00:52:00]ATTACK: Beepsky(ruarais) attacked Jack Rustle(thewhitecrayon) with stunbaton(INTENT: HARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE)
[00:52:01]ATTACK: Beepsky(ruarais) attacked Jack Rustle(thewhitecrayon) with stunbaton(INTENT: HARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE)
[00:52:01]ATTACK: Beepsky(ruarais) stunned Jack Rustle(thewhitecrayon)
[00:52:01]ATTACK: Beepsky(ruarais) attacked Jack Rustle(thewhitecrayon) with stunbaton(INTENT: HARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE)
[00:52:02]ATTACK: Beepsky(ruarais) attacked Jack Rustle(thewhitecrayon) with stunbaton(INTENT: HARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE)
[00:52:03]ATTACK: Beepsky(ruarais) stunned Jack Rustle(thewhitecrayon)
[00:52:03]ATTACK: Beepsky(ruarais) attacked Jack Rustle(thewhitecrayon) with stunbaton(INTENT: HARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE)
[00:52:03]ATTACK: Beepsky(ruarais) stunned Jack Rustle(thewhitecrayon)
[00:52:04]ATTACK: Beepsky(ruarais) attacked Jack Rustle(thewhitecrayon) with stunbaton(INTENT: HARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE)
[00:52:04]ATTACK: Beepsky(ruarais) stunned Jack Rustle(thewhitecrayon) </font
[00:52:05]ATTACK: Beepsky(ruarais) attacked Jack Rustle(thewhitecrayon) with stunbaton(INTENT: HARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE)
[00:52:05]ATTACK: Beepsky(ruarais) stunned Jack Rustle(thewhitecrayon)
[00:52:06]ATTACK: Beepsky(ruarais) attacked Jack Rustle(thewhitecrayon) with stunbaton(INTENT: HARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE)
[00:52:06]ATTACK: Beepsky(ruarais) stunned Jack Rustle(thewhitecrayon)
[00:52:07]ATTACK: Beepsky(ruarais) stunned Jack Rustle(thewhitecrayon)
[00:52:08]ATTACK: Beepsky(ruarais) attacked Jack Rustle(thewhitecrayon) with stunbaton(INTENT: HARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE)
[00:52:08]ATTACK: Beepsky(ruarais) stunned Jack Rustle(thewhitecrayon)
[00:52:09]ATTACK: Beepsky(ruarais) attacked Jack Rustle(thewhitecrayon) with stunbaton(INTENT: HARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE)
[00:52:09]ATTACK: Beepsky(ruarais) stunned Jack Rustle(thewhitecrayon)

This shows a prolonged beating with a stunbaton. If it had been an accident, it would've been once, maybe twice. Harmbatonning someone makes a very distinctive sound, so I'm surprised you didn't notice it.

[Ruarais]

Hey, I'm sorry for my behaviour. I was told by the AI to prevent the rage cage from continuing and this resulted in a huge clusterfuck of a round. There were a lot of cyborgs after him but I seemed to be being singled out in this case. It also didn't help that there was nearly no security.

I can understand the issues with harm batoning but they were honest mistakes. I had to switch to the harm intent A LOT to push past people - unfortunately I would forget, and two minutes later he would be loose, I would be trying to stun him... and yeah, he would get hit. Every time this happened I tried to explain myself but it's hard to do it in an IC way.

I can understand the small mistakes every once in a while, but my concern is with this:

Spoiler:

[00:51:57]ATTACK: Beepsky(ruarais) attacked Jack Rustle(thewhitecrayon) with stunbaton(INTENT: HARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE)</font
[00:51:58]ATTACK: Beepsky(ruarais) attacked Jack Rustle(thewhitecrayon) with stunbaton(INTENT: HARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE)
[00:51:58]ATTACK: Beepsky(ruarais) stunned Jack Rustle(thewhitecrayon)
[00:51:59]ATTACK: Beepsky(ruarais) attacked Jack Rustle(thewhitecrayon) with stunbaton(INTENT: HARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE)
[00:51:59]ATTACK: Beepsky(ruarais) stunned Jack Rustle(thewhitecrayon)
[00:52:00]ATTACK: Beepsky(ruarais) attacked Jack Rustle(thewhitecrayon) with stunbaton(INTENT: HARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE)
[00:52:01]ATTACK: Beepsky(ruarais) attacked Jack Rustle(thewhitecrayon) with stunbaton(INTENT: HARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE)
[00:52:01]ATTACK: Beepsky(ruarais) stunned Jack Rustle(thewhitecrayon)
[00:52:01]ATTACK: Beepsky(ruarais) attacked Jack Rustle(thewhitecrayon) with stunbaton(INTENT: HARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE)
[00:52:02]ATTACK: Beepsky(ruarais) attacked Jack Rustle(thewhitecrayon) with stunbaton(INTENT: HARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE)
[00:52:03]ATTACK: Beepsky(ruarais) stunned Jack Rustle(thewhitecrayon)
[00:52:03]ATTACK: Beepsky(ruarais) attacked Jack Rustle(thewhitecrayon) with stunbaton(INTENT: HARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE)
[00:52:03]ATTACK: Beepsky(ruarais) stunned Jack Rustle(thewhitecrayon)
[00:52:04]ATTACK: Beepsky(ruarais) attacked Jack Rustle(thewhitecrayon) with stunbaton(INTENT: HARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE)
[00:52:04]ATTACK: Beepsky(ruarais) stunned Jack Rustle(thewhitecrayon) </font
[00:52:05]ATTACK: Beepsky(ruarais) attacked Jack Rustle(thewhitecrayon) with stunbaton(INTENT: HARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE)
[00:52:05]ATTACK: Beepsky(ruarais) stunned Jack Rustle(thewhitecrayon)
[00:52:06]ATTACK: Beepsky(ruarais) attacked Jack Rustle(thewhitecrayon) with stunbaton(INTENT: HARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE)
[00:52:06]ATTACK: Beepsky(ruarais) stunned Jack Rustle(thewhitecrayon)
[00:52:07]ATTACK: Beepsky(ruarais) stunned Jack Rustle(thewhitecrayon)
[00:52:08]ATTACK: Beepsky(ruarais) attacked Jack Rustle(thewhitecrayon) with stunbaton(INTENT: HARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE)
[00:52:08]ATTACK: Beepsky(ruarais) stunned Jack Rustle(thewhitecrayon)
[00:52:09]ATTACK: Beepsky(ruarais) attacked Jack Rustle(thewhitecrayon) with stunbaton(INTENT: HARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE)
[00:52:09]ATTACK: Beepsky(ruarais) stunned Jack Rustle(thewhitecrayon)

This shows a prolonged beating with a stunbaton. If it had been an accident, it would've been once, maybe twice. Harmbatonning someone makes a very distinctive sound, so I'm surprised you didn't notice it.

You sure that wasn't after the round ended?

[Hellafied]

I understand throwing out the law 2. But silicones are required to follow law 2, unless that will lead to harm. There where some instances where my law 2 requests could I lead to harm. But while I was Brigged (for accidently screwdrivering the bridge door) the Borg full striped me.( while in its self is massive shit sec) I ordered it to uncuff me while I was naked in the cell. And I ordered it to (paraphrasing/summing things up) to not be shit and treat me like a human. The Borg kept saying the laws don't work like that. The Borg allowed a security officer to harm me for a while before it stepped in. The harm baton spam was after te round ended.

EDIT: sorry for all the spelling mistakes in typing this on my phone.

[iRazgriz]

In which part of law 1 is written that self harm is fine and dandy?

https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Rules#Asim ... Human_Harm

(Silicon Policies) 2. Self-harm-based coercion is a violation of Server Rule 1. The occurrence of such an attempt should be adminhelped and then disregarded.

But i say again, the cage was not built when the borg began to decon it. The cage its self does not harm. The humans decide, under their own free will, to fight.

That's a widely different situatuon and obviously I wasn't referring to "AI open ir I stab my eyes out law 1"

[Ruarais]

I understand throwing out the law 2. But silicones are required to follow law 2, unless that will lead to harm. There where some instances where my law 2 requests could I lead to harm. But while I was Brigged (for accidently screwdrivering the bridge door) the Borg full striped me.( while in its self is massive shit sec) I ordered it to uncuff me while I was naked in the cell. And I ordered it to (paraphrasing/summing things up) to not be shit and treat me like a human. The Borg kept saying the laws don't work like that. The Borg allowed a security officer to harm me for a while before it stepped in. The harm baton spam was after te round ended.

EDIT: sorry for all the spelling mistakes in typing this on my phone.

I'd like to make it clear that you are leaving out a lot of context in your favor here. From the start, you were taking a very antagonistic view to the cyborgs. This was perhaps warranted at the start, as we were trying to prevent a harmful law being uploaded. Yet as time went on, you were very determined to upload this law - from flashing cyborgs and barricading in the AI upload to creating your own AI upload in the SMES room. Along all of this, there was little security and the cyborgs were the only ones actually combating your rampant journey of creating AI laws such as "Rage cages are non harmful", "Start all sentences with I am a ..." and so on. (I don't remember the exact laws)

You are making the point that you were arrested for 'accidentally screwdriving the bridge', which is pretty hard to believe given this context. It's harder to believe since you had a multitool also in hand. There was a clear motive - break into the AI upload and upload more harmful laws. Regarding stripping him, at that point the shuttle was arriving and I was going to take him onto the shuttle and just get out of there. The harm from the security officer was very annoying to watch but also very difficult to prevent - the officer was inside the cell whilst I was stood outside, and I had made the wrong assumption that it was also a mistake.

It's very annoying to deal with people such as you who take every step possible to make the cyborg's life hell. Does rule 1 not override laws 1 through 3?

[Hellafied]

i did not even attempt to build my cage untill abotut half way through the round. About the bridge hacking, the HoS was standing right infront of me, and i did not have anything but a screwdriver. Also, i had the support of the captain to upload my laws. So i was hardly acting like an antag. Even if, atnags are human (most of the time)

[Ruarais]

Sorry, I didn't mean antagonistic in that way. I meant in the way that you were constantly hostile towards the silicons, but that wasn't the actual issue here anyway.

[Vekter]

Alright, my bad on the harmbaton thing. That was indeed after the round.

Upon looking through the rest of this, I'm going to go ahead and issue a warning to Ruarais. It seems like things just ended up spiralling out of control. While I understand that things get difficult as a borg, you didn't seem to make much of an effort to stop the harm from occurring in the brig.

I would also like to advise Hellafied to try and work things out in-character without resulting to forcibly uploading borg laws in the future. This seems to be a recurring problem with you (resulting to the easy way out and being a dick instead of communicating and RPing) and it's not a trend we like to see.

If any of you have anything else to say, go ahead, otherwise I'm going to call this resolved.