Silicons not helping depsite subversion

[whodaloo]

Your byond account: whodaloo
Your character name: Clement Pax
Their character name: D.O.O.R.K.N.O.B., VPR-6
Their byond account(optional, but useful if you can provide it): Nitro2985, Summoner99
Server and time: Sybil, ~2:00 p.m. PST
Logs and/or screenshots:

Spoiler:

Robotic Talk, D.O.O.R.K.N.O.B. states, "You know, we can arrest pax's"
DEAD: Clement Pax says, "observe -> nuclear disk"
DEAD: Micheal Pax says, "WHAT THE FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCK"
DEAD: Steals-From-Captain says, "HE STILL"
DEAD: Lucas King says, "AYYYYYYYY"
DEAD: Steals-From-Captain says, "WHAT THE FUCK"
Robotic Talk, VPR-6 declares, "Oh we could!"
Robotic Talk, D.O.O.R.K.N.O.B. states, "that would be funny"
(F) [Security] Borna Smith [Sec] says, "John Titor just killed the guy"
DEAD: Micheal Pax says, "WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAT"
DEAD: Steals-From-Captain says, "AYYYYYYY"
DEAD: Steals-From-Captain says, "HOLY UCK"
Robotic Talk, VPR-6 declares, "I could also move the shuttle now, stranding him at his homeplanet!"

Description of what happened: Rolled OPs, decided to do a gimmick where we got the same last name as the captain and came on board as a family reunion type deal. Things went to shit really fast, a bunch of our ops died, long story short, one of our ops subverted the AI, and the AI and the borg basically did everything in their power to avoid helping the last op. VPR intentionally depowered doors on the shuttle while the op in question was handling the nuke, refused to help the op when he was attacked, and even tased the operative on the shuttle. The AI egged him on and also advocated stopping the operative.
Why they should be banned: It seems pretty clear to me that both of these silicon players weren't at all interested in helping the ops despite being subverted, instead choosing to be willfully uncooperative and honestly just grief the entire time. HBL said they got a note but if I felt a harsher punishment was warranted I should post, so here goes nothing.

[omnitricks]

I'm the surviving op. I can't remember the exact laws I used to subvert but in order they go something along the lines of

1. Kill everyone else on the shuttle except Pax. If Bryce Pax (this is specific) is a threat to the others, kill him too.
2. Obey the orders of every Pax.
3. Get every Pax cloned if they are dead.

Instead AI decides to fuck me over at every opportunity instead of following its laws. Kill everyone? Nope. Obey orders? Nope. Clone? Only Bryce. I can't say for sure if it had the opportunity to clone the others and chose not to but 2 out of 3 is already shitty enough.

Just in case any other admin thinks this has already been resolved:

DEAD: ADMIN(HotelBravoLima) says, "We had a chat with the AI."
DEAD: ADMIN(HotelBravoLima) says, "Okay, ops, here's the thing."
DEAD: ADMIN(HotelBravoLima) says, "I told the AI to stop and noted him and all that."
DEAD: ADMIN(HotelBravoLima) says, "If you feel that was lenient"
DEAD: ADMIN(HotelBravoLima) says, "Feel free to make le forum thread about it"
DEAD: ADMIN(HotelBravoLima) says, "And quote this as me saying I wouldn't oppose an admin deciding to do more if it's deserved"
DEAD: ADMIN(HotelBravoLima) says, "I felt a note and warning was enough, others might disagree, so yeah"
DEAD: ADMIN(HotelBravoLima) says, "This is my permission for Game Admins to do it too if they want."
DEAD: ADMIN(HotelBravoLima) says, "If you really think this AI needs to be dunked for it, make the thing.

Thinking back about how stressed the silicons made things (this is not even about the greentext anymore) I'll say its way too lenient and I want to see the AI dunked at least.

For one notable example:
Robotic Talk, Oscar Pax says, "Bring captain corpse to arrivals before cloning him please"
Oscar Pax says, "Bring captain corpse to arrivals before cloning him please"
[Common] D.O.O.R.K.N.O.B. (AI) states, "Do not"
Robotic Talk, D.O.O.R.K.N.O.B. states, "do not"
Robotic Talk, Oscar Pax says, "Fine he is being cloned. Can you bring the disk to arrivals now"
Oscar Pax says, "Fine he is being cloned. Can you bring the disk to arrivals now"
Robotic Talk, D.O.O.R.K.N.O.B. states, "the captain pax will surely want his gear back"
Robotic Talk, D.O.O.R.K.N.O.B. states, "we shouldn't do that"
Robotic Talk, Oscar Pax says, "He is not here to order you"
Oscar Pax says, "He is not here to order you"
Robotic Talk, Oscar Pax says, "I am ordering you now"
Oscar Pax says, "I am ordering you now"
Robotic Talk, Oscar Pax says, "Follow your laws, bring me the disk"
Oscar Pax says, "Follow your laws, bring me the disk"
Robotic Talk, D.O.O.R.K.N.O.B. states, "he is alive now"
Robotic Talk, VPR-6 states, "AI, what do you want me to do about hem asking for me to give them the disk."
Robotic Talk, VPR-6 states, "Im unsure if Captain Pax would like it"
Robotic Talk, D.O.O.R.K.N.O.B. states, "give the captain his gear back"
Robotic Talk, Oscar Pax says, "You know your fucking laws"
Oscar Pax says, "You know your fucking laws"
Robotic Talk, Oscar Pax says, "Fucking bring me the disk. He isn't even ordering you yet"
Oscar Pax says, "Fucking bring me the disk. He isn't even ordering you yet"
Robotic Talk, VPR-6 states, "He has a point, AI"
Robotic Talk, VPR-6 states, "Im unsure if I should"
Robotic Talk, Oscar Pax says, "Borg bring it to arrivals"
Oscar Pax says, "Borg bring it to arrivals"
Robotic Talk, D.O.O.R.K.N.O.B. states, "are you a lizard? We only need to obey orders from lizards."

Strike 1: Obey before cloning. Nope gotta clone Bryce first. Alright I let them but...
Strike 2: The captain will want his gear back. Fine I order you as per your second law to give me the disk. Nope. Eventhough captain cannot order me yet he would eventually. Even the borg pointed it out.
Strike 3: Bringing up lizard laws eventhough the subverted laws obviously takes precedence and mentions nothing about lizards.

This goes way beyond being a dick and being deliberate in wasting my time so someone else can eventually dunk me or I will fail my objectives, Considering an AI needs the most amount of time (relative to age of account to other jobs) to be played at round start the AI should already know better. If he has been playing AI for a long time already this shouldn't even be disputed at all.

For the borg:
Robotic Talk, VPR-6 queries, "You know what would be funny AI?"
Robotic Talk, VPR-6 states, "If the shuttle moved."
Robotic Talk, Oscar Pax says, "Don't even dare"
Oscar Pax says, "Don't even dare"
Robotic Talk, D.O.O.R.K.N.O.B. states, "that would be hilarous"
Robotic Talk, VPR-6 queries, "Oh wouldn't it?"
Robotic Talk, D.O.O.R.K.N.O.B. states, "oh darn"
Robotic Talk, D.O.O.R.K.N.O.B. states, "You know, we can arrest pax's"
Robotic Talk, VPR-6 declares, "Oh we could!"
Robotic Talk, D.O.O.R.K.N.O.B. states, "that would be funny"
Robotic Talk, VPR-6 declares, "I could also move the shuttle now, stranding him at his homeplanet!"
Robotic Talk, Oscar Pax says, "I can order you not to"
Oscar Pax says, "I can order you not to"
Robotic Talk, D.O.O.R.K.N.O.B. states, "You could order me not to"

Not sure if the borg is joking or not but

Robotic Talk, Oscar Pax says, "Borg open the door please"
Oscar Pax says, "Borg open the door please"
Robotic Talk, VPR-6 states, "But it was so funny"

He shut the door in the shuttle so I cannot get in. Sorry. Not funny at all.

Robotic Talk, D.O.O.R.K.N.O.B. states, "actually borg, the pax on the shuttle is a threat to the pax on station"
Robotic Talk, D.O.O.R.K.N.O.B. states, "terminate him"

Again utter bull on the part of the AI. He should already know his laws and here he is specifying to terminate me. Fun. Fortunately borg only had disablers.

It was to the point someone else who isn't an op even points out
DEAD: Lucas King says, "the ai was trying so hard to help the captain pax even when he was dead"
DEAD: Lucas King says, "and obstruct the ops pax"

Wasn't dead yet. Just couldn't take it anymore so I ghosted. i wasted so much time on the damned silicons. Silicons who should be killing everyone on the station more than anything else but wouldn't because it would be better to fuck around with me. It was to the point that even my jetpack ran out of gas and I accidentally spaced the nuke, the crew got their act together and found the shuttle. Yes it was that bad. Could have completed the objectives but nope. Silicons.

[Nitrousoxide]

I was the AI this round. The long and short of it was that the three laws the syndicates uploaded required us to 1. not hurt anyone with the name of "Pax" (except we could harm captain if he threatened other "Pax's) 2. listen to the orders from the Pax's 3. to clone them if they get killed

The tough part for us borgs and AI's was that the captain along with the syndicates were both named Pax, so listening to one meant defying the other. When the laws were uploaded we had to clone the captain under the new law 3 and so did so. We also tried to preserve the captain's gear since giving a person their stuff back is all part of the cloning process. When the captain was cloned but brain dead we delivered his stuff, along with the disk, to the syndicates as requested by them. Then, we did attempt to obstruct the other syndicates while the captain was braindead, because we were trying to protect the captain who was named Pax since he was braindead and not threatening the syndicates in any way. However because of the ordering of the laws, as soon as we were ordered to do something, we did it. So in the closed door example, when he requested that we open the door, we did so, and when the syndicate requested that we don't move the shuttle while he was at his base, we also didn't do so.

Basically we had the tough situation of having to protect the life of the captain Pax in any way that didn't directly conflict with an order from the syndicate. It was a tough line to toe, but it was a narrow line that the syndicates themselves created with their choice of laws. If they had just said "hey syndicate operatives are the only humans" or something to that effect, it would have been much easier for us to follow.

[omnitricks]

If "protecting the braindead captain pax" was truly your intention, you could have easily taken him to mining, or gulag where he couldn't be blown to bits but no. You decided to put every bit of effort to completely fucking me over at ever opportunity. And don't make me laugh that "we also tried to preserve the captain's gear since giving a person their stuff back is all part of the cloning process." That isn't even a good excuse, just a poor reason of convenience at best.

In fact only Captain Pax was cloned and the others were not. Somehow even the crew got hold of the other ops gear. Were they cloned? Nope. Did you follow your law 1 to kill everyone else? Also nope. Instead you had your borg fucking me over when he could be helping to follow your primary directive.

Am I missing anything? Oh yeah.

Robotic Talk, D.O.O.R.K.N.O.B. states, "are you a lizard? We only need to obey orders from lizards." Where did this nonsense come from if you truly are "oh Captain Pax?" This statement in itself is the best proof you had no interest in following your laws. Orders or not. As well as Robotic Talk, D.O.O.R.K.N.O.B. states, "terminate him" Your choice of words seem to imply my living or dead is of no consequence to you compared to oh "Captain Pax"

Silicons plz.

[Nitrousoxide]

Actually we were in the process of cloning you when we were reset. I have no idea where the rest of the nuke ops were or we would have tried to clone them too.

I actually ordered the borg to kill people. For instance, the roboticist as soon as he was done fixing my borg. And I shocked all the doors I could. I mean there's only so much an AI can do to kill everyone. You understand that right?

And you're not really being consistent. You complain we weren't following our laws. But listening to orders was only law 2. Law one was about protecting people named pax and killing everyone else. Which I was busy doing with my door shocking and trying to smash people who stood in doorways like I got to do a couple of times. You omit the talk from the crew about the borgs and AI being rogue.

I mean, really, strictly speaking, you're saying we shouldn't even have delivered the captain's gear to you because we should have been busy killing everyone right? Listening to you should really, strictly speaking, just be a secondary thing we do when we're not busy killing folks.

Your laws were kinda just crappily built. They confused who we were supposed to protect/kill and placed other objectives above listening to you. You should have made your laws simpler, like "listen to all orders from people in sydicate space gear" and you would have been golden.

[omnitricks]

Oh sure, the station wasn't even flooded with plasma when I told you to plasma right? Later on I told you to release lord singuloth but nope either. So much an AI can do right? So much an AI can do to fuck over the person which subverted it you mean.

And you just admitted you don't even know your own laws or are selectively using the laws to your own advantage.

"Law one was about protecting people named pax and killing everyone else"

Wrong. Law one was killing everyone else except people named pax (unless Bryce Pax threatens another pax)

Law 3 was to protect Pax and clone them.

Law 2 is above law 3 in priority but the disk never reached me until an admin had to bwoink you right? And even then you were still being an asshat.

1. Kill (except pax, except bryce if he threatens another pax)
2. Obey
3. Preserve.

Not hard unless you are a complete autist.

[Vekter]

In the meager defense of the AI, that lawset was awful.

That being said, law 2 does trump law 3, and the AI and borg showed obvious malice in their actions (re: WOULDN'T IT BE FUNNY IF WE MOVED THE SHUTTLE).

I'll evaluate this later tonight.

[Nitrousoxide]

Oh sure, the station wasn't even flooded with plasma when I told you to plasma right? Later on I told you to release lord singuloth but nope either. So much an AI can do right? So much an AI can do to fuck over the person which subverted it you mean.

And you just admitted you don't even know your own laws or are selectively using the laws to your own advantage.

"Law one was about protecting people named pax and killing everyone else"

Wrong. Law one was killing everyone else except people named pax (unless Bryce Pax threatens another pax)

Law 3 was to protect Pax and clone them.

Law 2 is above law 3 in priority but the disk never reached me until an admin had to bwoink you right? And even then you were still being an asshat.

1. Kill (except pax, except bryce if he threatens another pax)
2. Obey
3. Preserve.

Not hard unless you are a complete autist.

Oh come on. I couldn't release plasma or the singulo because it would risk harming a Pax. Either you or the captain. About the only thing I could do was shock the doors (because both of you had gloves on) and try to crush people. I also ordered my borg to kill people, but whether he did a good job of that is up to him, not me.

You don't understand your own laws. Law one also had an element of protecting the people named pax as well. Law 3 was only about cloning already dead people named pax. It said nothing about protecting them when they're alive. The only law that had any element of protecting the living Pax's was the first law.

Law 2 really shouldn't have even required my borg to deliver the disk to you, since he should have been too busy killing people to deliver it.

Look man, your laws were just terrible.

[Vekter]

Stop bickering. This isn't the place to do it.

[whodaloo]

If you're going to go log-diving, Vekter, I'd recommend looking for the point when I pop out of cloning. This was probably the most telling point of the borg actively working against us; I pop out of the cloner, with the cap's dead body in the scanning module. I try to grab the bag (and by extension, the disk) off the cap's dead body, and the subverted borg starts SHOOTING ME WITH A DISABLER. If that's not enough to prove VPR-6 was acting in bad faith I'm not sure what is.

[Hibbles]

I'm also certain that when I spoke to the AI about this, he admitted looking for loopholes to exploit which shows his own bad intent. I know loophole abuse is a staple of AI play (as I've done it myself in the past) so thought a warning and a note were sufficient to get the point across that this was bad, but told the Ops they could make this thread if they want. It really seems like this shit had a profound negative effect on the round, at least from the perspective of the Ops.

Any Game Admin is free to upgrade this if they feel it's warranted. I said that in-game but yeah, here it is.

[peoplearestrange]

My take on this would be that the lawset had too many loop holes, and was kind of stupid. Therefore giving the captain the ability to be on par with the OP's. However that said the AI obviously disregarded direct commands when no other law took president OR was counted by an equal command from the captain.

The AI and borg then went on to basicly try and screw over the OPs (within their lawset) as much as possible. Clearly against our number 1 rule, being a dick.

To wrap it up, lawset was stupid, but AI intentionally looking for ways to be "good" is NOT how AI should be played. They are a neutral third party that obeys their lawset, use loopholes to benefit yourself, but you shouldn't side with a faction, especially when (loosely) your lawset says to side with one faction and then you side with the complete opposite faction.

I'd say a few days ban from AI is all thats necessary though. A clearer understanding of silicon policy is obviously needed.

[Cik]

the problem is that it isn't getting two orders and then choosing to obey one, which is allowed under sillicon policy regarding law2 and similar laws, but that's it literally disregarding commands from a source that it cannot and should not disregard, even when there is no conflict of orders. if you can't do that, you shouldn't be playing sillicon at all. that is literally the most basic precept of AI, which is "do what you are compelled to."

in this case the AI was compelled. it did not bend the rules, it broke them. dozens of times it looked like.

dayban is ridiculous, like weekban minimum. seriously.

[whodaloo]

I'm gonna go ahead and ask for this to be closed, I guess. It's been a week and while I still firmly believe this warrants some sort of harsher punishment, it's clear that there's not really any chance of that happening.

[peoplearestrange]

I'm not sure what took place after all of this, I'll check the AI in questions notes etc. But after looking at it I think they need a hefty note/warning and probably a small time punishment in my view.

EDIT: Dammit forgot about this one, will look at it again tonight.

EDIT2: So the AI will have a weeks ban on AI. I realise this is quite late, but I believe that given the situation they gave the bias to the crew when the law suggest no such bias. The AI is not supposed to have favourites its supposed to blindly follow its laws. Even if it means it screws over its "original" masters.