Box Removal Discussion

How, what and why to code in BYOND.
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oranges
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Re: Box Removal Discussion

Post by oranges » #560599

Bottom post of the previous page:

Megarop wrote:
oranges wrote:Only those with a genuine desire to improve the balance of the game, because players will tear their hair out about how you're ruining it when you rebalance anything.
oranges wrote:My standing advice to mappers is don't waste your time, nobody will appreciate what you do anyway.
Who are you even developing the game for if you don't enjoy making changes to the game, you don't like the people who actually play the game you maintain, and the majority of them don't like the changes you make to the game?

Also, the server literally has a rule that says "Your character will frequently die, sometimes without even a possibility of avoiding it. Events will often be out of your control. No matter how good or prepared you are, sometimes you just lose." and if you ask them about it a lot the playerbase will just tell you outright that ss13 can not or should not be balanced. Surely having a "genuine desire to improve the balance" of a game like this is a lost cause and even if you did accomplish making ss13 some semblance of "balanced" people would find it less fun anyway.
Are you asking me? I enjoy the job
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Megarop
Joined: Tue Jun 26, 2018 6:08 am
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Re: Box Removal Discussion

Post by Megarop » #560611

oranges wrote:Are you asking me? I enjoy the job
Some of the stuff you say really makes it sound like you don't.
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oranges
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Re: Box Removal Discussion

Post by oranges » #560613

Sounds like a projection on your part
halitosisman
Joined: Wed Feb 07, 2018 7:24 pm
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Re: Box Removal Discussion

Post by halitosisman » #560641

Flatulent wrote:
BeeSting12 wrote:
Flatulent wrote:
MMMiracles wrote:As a general question about future maps, what is the stance on the addition of a map with the concept that it's built in mind with a particular gamemode?
can’t you already load maps if you are admin? Why bother adding an event map into the code, this is content bloat. It won’t be used all the time.
That's not really good logic, cult isn't run 24/7 so is it content bloat? .357 revolvers aren't used all the time, they're content bloat too! As long as the map/mode is in rotation then it's not content bloat.
.357 revolvers can always be purchased if you are traitor, there is no element of chance that would lock you out of buying one. Cult can always roll as long as it’s enabled in config.

An event map may be completely forgotten or may overtake all other maps(and by extension, all other gamemodes) depending on the reception of the game mode. We have gamemode voting disabled, but voting for such a map would be a vote of secret/dynamic vs this new gamemode. Considering there are only so many maps coders can maintain(as oranges himself said in the map vote thread), this new event map would take place of an another map that could be played with any ruleset currently available on tg. Instead of having a choice between 5-6 maps if you want to play secret/dynamic, you now have a choice between 4-5. While it may not sound like such a big problem, today if Meta and Delta were removed from the map vote, you would have an option between Pubby and Box. That’s about it, really. Box is a buggy and badly designed mess and Pubby is a lowpop map.

There is also a problem of metaknowledge. Consider the following: imagine if there was a map that was designed exclusively for xenos. The entire crew knows xenoes are going to spawn. Roboticists will focus on mass-producing cheap mechs for the crew. Assistants will make acquiring bio hoods or other face covering helmets their top priority. A selective plasma flood may be prepared by atmospherics, provided that there won’t be any threat to crew. People will be more armed and prepared for xenos in comparison to an average round where crew wasn’t alerted that xenoes would spawn this round. The gamemode MUST be designed like warops, where crew is alerted roundstart that nukies are here to fuck shit up. But we all know how this plays out every time with war ops. People suicide all the time. Many don’t find warops fun, but since this new hypothetical game mode is announced before the round even begins, it being rolled guarantees some pop death, severity depending on reception of the game mode.
New maps already get forgotten. How can the reception of new maps get any worse? If it overtakes other maps, doesn't that mean it's a hit with the playerbase (or the admins)?

Also, early game metaknowledge exists for every gamemode, even traitors. Do you think security is looking for soap every time they bother to search new prisoners? The difference with traitors is that preparing for a deathmatch is typically not a wise response. For any other gamemode it usually is.
Tlaltecuhtli
Joined: Fri Nov 10, 2017 12:16 am
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Re: Box Removal Discussion

Post by Tlaltecuhtli » #560642

well i guess we ll have to see next year with the same thread as no new content is going to be merged on box, while mappers focus on new/map they like....
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Flatulent
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Re: Box Removal Discussion

Post by Flatulent » #560646

halitosisman wrote:
Flatulent wrote:
BeeSting12 wrote:
Flatulent wrote:
MMMiracles wrote:As a general question about future maps, what is the stance on the addition of a map with the concept that it's built in mind with a particular gamemode?
can’t you already load maps if you are admin? Why bother adding an event map into the code, this is content bloat. It won’t be used all the time.
That's not really good logic, cult isn't run 24/7 so is it content bloat? .357 revolvers aren't used all the time, they're content bloat too! As long as the map/mode is in rotation then it's not content bloat.
-snip-
New maps already get forgotten. How can the reception of new maps get any worse? If it overtakes other maps, doesn't that mean it's a hit with the playerbase (or the admins)?

Also, early game metaknowledge exists for every gamemode, even traitors. Do you think security is looking for soap every time they bother to search new prisoners? The difference with traitors is that preparing for a deathmatch is typically not a wise response. For any other gamemode it usually is.
1. There have been no new maps except kilo, donut rework and ice box. Kilo is a buggy unmaintained mess that doesn’t even work, everyone apparently hated donut a lot and ice box is just box and box fucking sucks. New maps will not get forgotten if they are good. This new map would have to be ultra good to even stand a chance in a map vote because the vast majority of people would want to play secret/dynamic. No matter how good the game mode is, it will not overtake secret/dynamic simply because they offer too much variety. They offer a lot of rulesets. A new gamemode has to be just one ruleset with just one way to play it.

2. Early game meta knowledge for traitors doesn’t even make any sense because you can’t prepare for all varieties of traitors. Chances are you won’t be prepared for SOMETHING unless you get all the fucking gear there is. Traitor has so much shit that power gaming them specifically is an exercise in futility. You powergame them exactly like how you would powergame cult or lings or revs. Just think about how you would deal with a desworder and why would your methods not work against other antags.
if you’re reading this please kindly suck my nuts
Mothblocks, winter 2021, “successfully” preventing bagil death with relevant data wrote:You seem to be under the fallacy that reinforcing that Bagil is a TDM shithole where you must carry bolas and spears on you at all times, while looking for the next valid to hunt down is a positive change to the server. I don't. The data suggests other people don't.
imsxz wrote:I give up there’s too many furries
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MisterPerson
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Re: Box Removal Discussion

Post by MisterPerson » #560736

This thread has gone wildly off topic and serves no real purpose. If/when icebox is ready, then we can revisit this. Until then, I'm just going to lock the thread.
I code for the code project and moderate the code sections of the forums.

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