[Unknown]Feedback Forum = Big middle finger to the community

[Oldman Robustin]

Maybe I've been missing something but since when have admins been ghost-locking threads without providing reasons, filtering certain words like "olding" and "newling" to prevent effective discussion of changes, and editing feedback thread titles childishly to confuse the subject matter and detract from the OP's message.

I made a thread (http://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=1528) to exclusively discuss the hivemind change to changelings. My original title was something like "Hivemind nerfs are another awful change" and discussion was almost entirely on-point and relevant to the host forum.

The coder responsible for the changes even contributed "I'm not going to freak out if you guys don't agree, though. If it gets reverted then I won't really be upset."

However, another coder decided apparently they WERE going to freak out. Cheridan deleted multiple posts for being off-topic (I never got to see them, but if Cheridan isn't even a moderator for that forum how is that possible), then my title got changed to "I don't like to pay for Hivemind", and when I tried to change the title back to what the thread was actually about, it got locked. Also "oldling" and "newling" were automoderated to "changeling", despite the fact that such distinctions are critical for understanding the history of changes behind changelings.

I hope I don't have to explain why "I don't care about paying for Hivemind and being given an extra point, but rewarding players for lone-wolfing changeling is taking the entire game mode in an awful direction" is not the same as "Wahh I don't like paying for hivemind". The title change was deliberately reworded to sound like a mindless whining thread instead of a serious feedback discussion.

I'm not sure how you can even justify this level of childishness and hostility to community discussion, but I'd like to see them come here and try.

Or just lock this thread too.

[Cheridan]

(I never got to see them, but if Cheridan isn't even a moderator for that forum how is that possible)

Because I'm a Forum Administrator, not a moderator.

I've already addressed this issue here: http://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic. ... 626#p32904

I've undeleted Paprika's shitpost here: http://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic. ... 528#p31804
It's a completely unconstructive hate post meant to single out and attack a contributor.

I've undeleted Kurado's post here: http://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic. ... 528#p31758
It doesn't bring up any new points, just a baseless whine generalizing all coders.

The other deleted threads were off-topic posts complaining about the CENSORSHIP CONSPIRACYYY
Kurado's final post in that thread was the last straw.
If me removing attack posts in Feedback is a middle finger to the community, then the Feedback forum is a middle finger to the developers who volunteer their time to make changes to the game, only to have it labelled as "YET ANOTHER AWFUL CHANGE".

If people just want to vent, take it to singulo.io where it can be properly disregarded.

[Aranclanos]

I don't know, most people who post on feedback are actually pretty chill, they aren't insulting coders on each opportunity spouting crap out of their asses. It's really about 3 or 4 guys doing it, I have no idea why you just don't ban them from the forums so we can have actual discussion of the subject instead of just 'i h4te coders!'

Really, nobody has to put themselves though that retardation because they want to help giving their free time to an open source game.

[Steelpoint]

What Aran said, just ban the people spouting vitriol so we can actually stay on topic. I think outright heavily moderating the discussion (filtering words, changing the OP's title) and then just locking the thread were in poor form.

[Cheridan]

I'd also like to clarify that I don't give a third of a shit about the actual code change. This keeps getting painted as coders trying to suppress opposition to their changes, instead of me deleting attacks.
I did support giving hivemind a cost, reasoning that it might make cooperation easier, that people who buy the Hivemind bundle would be cooperative players that would be more inclined to actually make good use of it. But if that's not happening and it gets reduces to 1 point or 0 points, it is a single-line change that matters incredibly little to me. Ikarrus, who made the change, has said he doesn't care much either way (and has already made changes based on feedback, increasing the % change for "pings" to show up to other changelings). Aranclanos has said he doesn't like it.
The amount of "heel-digging" in this situation is 0.

What Aran said, just ban the people spouting vitriol so we can actually stay on topic. I think outright heavily moderating the discussion (filtering words, changing the OP's title) and then just locking the thread were in poor form.

Yeah. You're probably right.

As far as the title change goes, it wasn't to make his argument sound mindless as Oldman believes; it was to change what was presented as a fact into what it is, an opinion, and to make it less grating -- the title "Another awful change" is very loaded and sets the tone of the posts that followed.

As far as filtering oldling and newling to just changeling... No other change has a distinction like this. Nobody calls Nuke mode preceding the TC-scaling updates Oldnuke. When the library was moved to where it is now, nobody called the map Newbox and Oldbox. The word Oldling only exists so that people can shout to bring it back, which is white noise that happens every single thread regarding changelings. Give it up, guys. Parasting will always be awful.
The filter's removed now at any rate.

[Steelpoint]

I would argue the idea of 'oldling' and 'newling' is present because it represents a massive shift in the antagonists play style and impact on the game, irrespective if its for better or worse. Whereas the changes to Nuke Ops only allowed them to bring additional equipment.

I would like to see Oldman's thread unlocked, any off topic content removed, and just ban the people who were constantly going off topic or similar.

[Saegrimr]

Shadowling

[Steelpoint]

Shadowling

I've been saying that for months, my old thread is even still on the old forums.

Either way.

[QuartzCrystal]

As far as the title change goes, it wasn't to make his argument sound mindless as Oldman believes; it was to change what was presented as a fact into what it is, an opinion, and to make it less grating -- the title "Another awful change" is very loaded and sets the tone of the posts that followed.

As far as filtering oldling and newling to just changeling... No other change has a distinction like this. Nobody calls Nuke mode preceding the TC-scaling updates Oldnuke. When the library was moved to where it is now, nobody called the map Newbox and Oldbox. The word Oldling only exists so that people can shout to bring it back, which is white noise that happens every single thread regarding changelings. Give it up, guys. Parasting will always be awful.
The filter's removed now at any rate.

Cheridan I like you, but this is incredibly shit. You can't just individually decide what forum titles ought to be or what made up words people are allowed to use to distinguish things. The original title was obviously an opinion, not a fact. Just because you disagree with the opinion (or anything else) doesn't mean you can change it without warning or notice.

Seriously, this is absolutely terrible.

Taken from an unrelated thread, but the following quote is relevant:

I think it's important to realize that views from multiple sides on any issue need to be considered. Discussion shouldn't be removed when it conflicts with the views of the moderators.

There is a perception (whether influenced by real events or not) that 4chan has been removing rational discussion and selectively enforcing rules (or making rules up on the spot) when they cross swords with the mods. This kind of shit has no place in /tg/station13.

[Cheridan]

There's a difference between a conflicting view and needlessly abrasive wording. I didn't edit any of the content of his posts.

[Scott]

My post was edited. Just saying.

[Cheridan]

My post was edited. Just saying.

I can't actually find the edit in the mod log, what did the post say originally? There was one post I edited just because it quoted Paprika's shitpost-- no point deleting something if it's just readable 3 posts down. If that's the one you're making a fuss about then ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[damiac]

Adding word filters for 'oldling' and 'newling' prevents discussion of the very real differences, because those are the terms the community uses to discuss them.
That's some erro during the meltdown level bullshit right there.

[Scott]

My post was edited. Just saying.

I can't actually find the edit in the mod log, what did the post say originally? There was one post I edited just because it quoted Paprika's shitpost-- no point deleting something if it's just readable 3 posts down. If that's the one you're making a fuss about then ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Then someone deleted the logs. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ It was just a childish edit.

[Cheridan]

Adding word filters for 'oldling' and 'newling' prevents discussion of the very real differences, because those are the terms the community uses to discuss them.
That's some erro during the meltdown level bullshit right there.

And why bother discussing it? The only reason anymore to mention oldlings is to call for a return to it, which is not going to happen. Every changeling discussion thread has an obligatory BRING BACK PARASTING style post, and at least one obligatory NO OLDING SUX post in response. I was just trying to get people to stop spinning their tires, getting mud everywhere.

[Jordie0608]

Then someone deleted the logs.

If we could delete the logs I'd have already executed my secret master plan.

[Arete]

And why bother discussing it? The only reason anymore to mention oldlings is to call for a return to it, which is not going to happen. Every changeling discussion thread has an obligatory BRING BACK PARASTING style post, and at least one obligatory NO OLDING SUX post in response. I was just trying to get people to stop spinning their tires, getting mud everywhere.

Did you seriously think that silently changing the content of people's posts without notifying them was going to reduce the amount of mud being thrown?

[QuartzCrystal]

There's a difference between a conflicting view and needlessly abrasive wording. I didn't edit any of the content of his posts.

Dude come on. You aren't the one to make this decision. In fact, as my SoS quote implies, no one is the one to make that decision. What you did is shit, and continuing to defend it by somehow insisting that you're right and anyone who disagrees is wrong is just making you look like even more of a shit.

[Aranclanos]

The thing is the antagonizing towards coders because of changes that you don't agree with. You won't agree with all changes, that's expected and you're welcome to post your feedback, that's why we have those forums, but remember that we can't make everyone happy.
Now, there are singular individuals (who like half of them don't even play the game anymore) who claim themselves to be the entire community and start saying crap that is just not true. Just look at the OP title of this thread, he is speaking about the community again, how we are (quoting it) making a 'big middle finger to the community'. Can you even make a title more pretentious? These kind of people don't represent the community, they represent only themselves, and with all the lies and antagonizing, they are making you decide between two choices, community or coders in a "community vs coders" conspiracy that doesn't exist.
Here's the thing, there aren't such options, the coders are part of the community. and these people are trying to split it and make everyone fight just to pull what they want for the game. It's just horrible.

Being all said, the question is, how do we stop said antagonization and community split that they are trying to pull off? Clearly editing just doesn't work and it isn't welcome by a lot of people, but then what do we have? Banning? I don't think that banning someone because they said 'coders are faggits' is smart either. Maybe we should on special cases, but those wouldn't be the most vocal ones? And I asure you, you'll get a million of other threads complaining about their bans because that's what they do. Just check the OP.

It's a tough one, but the perspective is clear, you have people trying to harm the community. Maybe we just have to stop overthinking it and act based of what is best for the whole server and coderbase.

[Psyentific]

Adding word filters for 'oldling' and 'newling' prevents discussion of the very real differences, because those are the terms the community uses to discuss them.
That's some erro during the meltdown level bullshit right there.

And why bother discussing it? The only reason anymore to mention oldlings is to call for a return to it,

But that's wrong

Oldling vs Newling is vital for context, playstyle, and overall comparison. Despite Para/Mute being ggnore, Old Ling with default hivemind, without armblade, without spacesuit, without all those traitor-equivalent powers was a unique and flavorful antag experience, that lended itself far, FAR more to teamwork (and betrayal) than Traitor. It straddled the line between team-based antag and solo antag, while having a lot of unique and changeling-specific powers, strategies, and playstyles.

New Ling is essentially traitor. Reskin and refluff a bunch of the items to biological equivalents, but it's Traitor. It's less incredibly-broken than oldling, but it's still shitty.

Removing a posters ability to distinguish between old and new changeling, in a discussion about old and new changeling, is shitty. It's like filtering "Orange Juice" and "Fruit punch" both to "juice", in a discussion about which juice is superior.

[Incomptinence]

I really don't see how the filter was off topic, it was literally applied mid thread in response to the thread. I have talked about the nuke and cult revamps myself in the past. While the nuke revamp does not have a catchy name I am aware of I have heard the cult revamp called sacrifice cult or sac cult.

I talk about oldling and newling optimally with a disclaimer that oldling was also trash and really I am certainly not looking for its return now.

Edit: Paprika's post was awful like many of their posts, but aren't they themselves a code contributor?

[Cheridan]

Alright, I see that the wordfilters and locking were crossing a line and I apologize for it. I wasn't trying to be literally Hitler or anything, but I do want to be able to come home after work and check on the forums without seeing a bunch of hatred and getting pissed off.

@Aranclanos thank you for the thoughtful post. You're right that deleting posts just makes people angrier, but the truth is it's the lowest amount of moderation available. Warnings are recorded and lead to bans, and bans are the highest amount of moderation possible.

Edit: Paprika's post was awful like many of their posts, but aren't they themselves a code contributor?

Yeah, Paprika is. That doesn't excuse the behavior though, in fact you'd think he'd have a bit more empathy there. I dunno if it's necessarily the case with Paprika, but there have been some people in the past, namely Malkevin, who have coded for the game while avoiding contact and association with other coders. He didn't want to be seen as part of the "INTERNAL DISCUSSIONS tower" or something.

[Oldman Robustin]

Did you seriously think that silently changing the content of people's posts without notifying them was going to reduce the amount of mud being thrown?

If this was my first visit here I'd be shocked too. I've kinda come to expect this kind of behavior here.

"Let's modify one of the original poster's title to make it sound like he's just inanely whining, surely that will reduce the animosity in this thread."

As for coder-hate, it all comes down to a delicate balance. You guys are maintaining and updating the game for free, but undoubtedly sometimes you shit the bed and introduce changes after bouncing it between 2-3 coders who barely have any experience on the item being changed - and those changes can stick around for months or even years before someone gets their head out of their ass and changes it again.

It's frustrating because the latter is easy to avoid, if you look at the github page for this change:

https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/4622

You'll see that EVEN THEN the majority of coders commenting were uneasy or opposed to the change, yet after a week Cheridan just jumps in and says "Nah guys, this is going to be a good change" without addressing ANY of the concerns and then pushes it through and says "Well we can always revert it". Now there's a giant shitshow spread across multiple threads and forums about a change that's widely disliked. Since the forums moved its harder to get a lot of momentum on these forums and that's why its so frustrating trying to fight bad changes. There's less interaction with the community than ever and all I'm seeing is an acceleration of poor decisions coming out the codermin and admin side of things.

[paprika]

Become a coder and make changes yourself. Discussing changes in PRs that you've made seems to go over a lot better than bitching on the forums which coders never read. If you want to make a difference, learn to code in ss13. It's actually really fucking easy. End of story.

I can go revert the changes in a PR just by going to ikarrus' PR and looking at the changes he made (which aren't a lot IIRC) so it's not exactly a hard thing to do but like the rest of the coders, it doesn't bother me enough to where I want to change it. Oldman, you obviously feel really strongly about the game and its balance, so why not actually change things for yourself and make PRs? The maintainers might actually give a shit.

[Oldman Robustin]

Become a coder and make changes yourself. Discussing changes in PRs that you've made seems to go over a lot better than bitching on the forums which coders never read. If you want to make a difference, learn to code in ss13. It's actually really fucking easy. End of story.

I can go revert the changes in a PR just by going to ikarrus' PR and looking at the changes he made (which aren't a lot IIRC) so it's not exactly a hard thing to do but like the rest of the coders, it doesn't bother me enough to where I want to change it. Oldman, you obviously feel really strongly about the game and its balance, so why not actually change things for yourself and make PRs? The maintainers might actually give a shit.

There's a lot of reasons that won't work right now but the simplest is this. I could do all that and become another coder who tries to strongarm changes that I think are best for everyone, or...

Coders could simply exercise a little decency and test/poll reactions from the community (here or in-game) before gutting a core feature of a common game type.

Even judging by the way those comments went its basically "ok 7/10 coders don't think this change is necessary, but I'm Cheridan so this debate is over, it's happening, thread closed". No reason to expect my foray into github (his turf) would go better than posting here where there's still some semblance of due process.

[Cheridan]

Unless something is an obvious WHATAREYOUDOING, or there are significant issues with an update, it will mostly be approved. In this case, even if there are people who were hesitant for the change, it's good that it was added simply because now the code supports the option to give it a cost, where it was previously not an option.

You call this "gutting a core feature" but, again, to me it's just a 1 line change that I don't really care about. I am not trying to shove the change down your throat, stop trying to present it as that.

[paprika]

Don't pretend coders don't have bias though, cheridan. You looked kind of upset when virtually all the players disliked the automatic mining scanner after it was added and said it was 'upsetting their autism' to make changes like this. You can see why this makes you look kinda bad.

[Arete]

A fully democratic system isn't really feasible, though, or even desirable. Most players don't even know what sort of changes they'd actually enjoy, let alone what sort of changes will make the game more fun for everyone else. That's not saying that people are dumb, it's saying that people aren't psychic. Ultimately, the community needs to be willing to try out proposed changes for a few weeks to show how the metagame evolves, and coders need to be willing to swallow their pride once that time period is up and evaluate based on community feedback whether the change has made things more fun for more people.

[bandit]

I will fully admit to being a person who calls for oldling more, but my reasoning is essentially this:

Oldling vs Newling is vital for context, playstyle, and overall comparison. Despite Para/Mute being ggnore, Old Ling with default hivemind, without armblade, without spacesuit, without all those traitor-equivalent powers was a unique and flavorful antag experience, that lended itself far, FAR more to teamwork (and betrayal) than Traitor. It straddled the line between team-based antag and solo antag, while having a lot of unique and changeling-specific powers, strategies, and playstyles.

New Ling is essentially traitor. Reskin and refluff a bunch of the items to biological equivalents, but it's Traitor. It's less incredibly-broken than oldling, but it's still shitty.

Removing a posters ability to distinguish between old and new changeling, in a discussion about old and new changeling, is shitty. It's like filtering "Orange Juice" and "Fruit punch" both to "juice", in a discussion about which juice is superior.

It's sort of shitty to take one person's experience with the game, that they find fun and isn't related to griefing, and say, essentially, NO, THIS IS NOT FUN AND YOU CAN'T SEE THIS AS FUN OR EVEN TALK ABOUT IT.

[mrpain]

As a member of this community I actually enjoy the feedback forum most of the time.

[MisterPerson]

Reminder that if you ever have a problem with any /tg/station code project members, procedures, decisions, actions, or anything else, feel free to PM me, Giacom, Cheridan, and/or Rock right away.