[Names Are Hard] Escalation ruling

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Zybwivcz
 
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[Names Are Hard] Escalation ruling

Postby Zybwivcz » Sat Jan 19, 2019 9:38 am #469958

Byond account and character name: Zybwivcz - Franklin Nash
Admin: Names Are Hard
Time and Server(Bagil or Sybil) incident occurred: Bagil 2019-01-19 07:54
ROUND ID HERE: 100486
https://sb.atlantaned.space/rounds/100486

Detailed summary: I was an atmos tech, AFAIK the only engineering dept. personnel on the station. Since it's a skeleton crew I've got engineering access as well, it looks like nothing in either department has been touched. I stick plasma tanks in the collectors, take the CE's hardsuit(because, as I said, I was the only person in the engineering department). I stop by the protolathe to print some equipment, and notice there are a bunch of points built up. I head over to science to plow them into something assuming nobody's doing R&D. Marisa Kirisame is RD and in the R&D room when I get there, so I ask at the window for her to spend the points, and for a portal gun if it's printable. I get told to fuck off. I use my jaws of life to pry open the very first door into science(just the first door into the vestibule, not even science proper), step one tile into the door, open the oxygen closet right inside and grab the oxyloss kit so I can dose up on salbutamol. Marisa comes out, batons me, takes the jaws of life, drags me out. Figure it's an overreaction but a fair enough response at this point.

I then go back to the science window, ask for the tool back. She comes out of science, batons me, drags me into science, and beats me to death with the baton. Then drags my corpse to robotics and tells them to borg me. To emphasize: I was outside science, she comes out and stuns me, drags me inside to kill me, and then tries to forceborg me. Zero explanation or attempts to clone or revive.

I ahelp, Names Are Hard responds, sends a few messages asking what happened and I respond. Eventually they message me telling me it's been handled. At this point I'm in a Firefighter, having convinced the roboticist to stick me in one instead of a borg. I notice Marisa's still in-game on the shuttle when it departs, see they're not an antag in roundend summary. Apparently the killing was weird enough to other people that someone comments on in in OOC after roundend, to which Marisa/Yakumo Chen's response is the false claim that I tried to "break in repeatedly". When the next round starts, I don't join but upon checking the crew manifest I see Marisa Kirisame is listed as RD for this round as well. The only conclusion I can draw from this is that Names Are Hard's way of handling it was to take no action.

This seemed like such an obvious case of a wildly out of proportion overescalation I don't see how a reasonable admin response is to take no punitive action whatsoever. I didn't break a single thing, didn't take a single thing, my violation was opening the very first door of science and taking an oxyloss kit out of a locker. Marisa batons me to death without bothering to attempt to detain me nonlethally or stop when I'm in crit, and then tries to borg me instead of dragging me to cloning. Best case NAH was misinformed about what happened by the other party and didn't bother to try to verify it with me, but in any case it seems like the correct response is something more than nothing.



NamesAreHard
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Re: [Names Are Hard] Escalation ruling

Postby NamesAreHard » Sat Jan 19, 2019 10:03 am #469960

While I didn't ban them, it doesn't mean I took no action whatsoever. Also, I had thought at the time that you had, in fact, entered science, thought I guess I was wrong.

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Yakumo_Chen
 
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Re: [Names Are Hard] Escalation ruling

Postby Yakumo_Chen » Sat Jan 19, 2019 11:58 am #469966

It was early in the round and I was spending points on other things and you asked for a portal gun. I can't think of a reason an atmos tech needs one except to fuck around and grief so I tell you to fuck off. You're also wearing the CE hardsuit and the AI had been complaining about someone RCDing the engine open, and last time I swung by Engineering I could tell someone had plowed through CE's office with an RCD, so I knew you were up to no good already.

You clearly weren't entering science just to grab an oxy kit, you get told to shove off and the first thing you do is try to force your way in. I stopped you the moment I heard the door opening, because you're clearly breaking in. I take your tool so you can't just go and do it again.

You ask for the tool back but I say no. You can go print more anyway. You pull out your RCD and stand next to the window. You were obviously making an attempt to break in with that, like you had through engineering. I don't put up with shitters, so I went out and stunned you again before you could fully decon the front of science, and decided to borg you, since apparently being thrown out of science once wasn't enough, so I decide to start beating you to get the picture better through your skull.

Yes, you were trying to break in repeatedly, and you got fucked over for it. Yes, the admin talked about it, and I wasn't banned. Try not being a shitter next time.


Admin Complaints also isn't Ban Requests, so stop treating it like it is.

Zybwivcz
 
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Re: [Names Are Hard] Escalation ruling

Postby Zybwivcz » Sat Jan 19, 2019 6:32 pm #470017

Yakumo_Chen wrote:It was early in the round and I was spending points on other things and you asked for a portal gun. I can't think of a reason an atmos tech needs one except to fuck around and grief so I tell you to fuck off. You're also wearing the CE hardsuit and the AI had been complaining about someone RCDing the engine open, and last time I swung by Engineering I could tell someone had plowed through CE's office with an RCD, so I knew you were up to no good already.


If the engine was RCDed open it was by someone else. I used one to get into the CE's office and take the hardsuit because there was no CE and there was nobody at all in engineering, that's it. Didn't touch anything else, even the CE's locker. The door to engineering was still intact, so it's not as if some assistant could have just wandered in. Don't see how you could have "swung by engineering" since I went straight from engineering to science and you were already in R&D at that point.

You ask for the tool back but I say no. You can go print more anyway. You pull out your RCD and stand next to the window. You were obviously making an attempt to break in with that, like you had through engineering. I don't put up with shitters, so I went out and stunned you again before you could fully decon the front of science


I didn't disassemble a single thing in science. I didn't even start to disassemble a single thing in science. I didn't threaten to disassemble anything in science. I did not damage in any way a single door or window of science. I was standing outside of science asking for the tool back, you came outside of science, stunned me, and then dragged me inside science to kill me without saying or asking anything.

Admin Complaints also isn't Ban Requests, so stop treating it like it is.


I'm posting in admin complaints because an admin failing to follow policy correctly when issuing a ruling on a clear violation is an admin complaints topic. Doubly so when the admin may have been given false or misleading information by one of the players involved. Triply so when the player involved has a long history of Rule 7 stuff like this.

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Yakumo_Chen
 
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Re: [Names Are Hard] Escalation ruling

Postby Yakumo_Chen » Sat Jan 19, 2019 10:35 pm #470071

Pulling your rcd out right after you were denied forced access is more than an obvious threat to break in. I'm not a fucking idiot.

You are not an admin and my actual notes or behavior are none of your damn business, you don't have any right to claim what my history is or how the admin dealing was resolved.

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lmwevil
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Re: [Names Are Hard] Escalation ruling

Postby lmwevil » Sun Jan 20, 2019 8:26 am #470168

anyway on to the point, disclosure of notes and note history isn't something that can be requested - and if you DO learn of anything it's because the admin in question was nice enough to grant you a small tidbit (very rare in my experience). Just because they say 'resolved' does not indicate they've taken no action, and if you were truly that concerned you could have followed and asked them via forum PM or ahelp next round.
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Farquaar
 
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Re: [Names Are Hard] Escalation ruling

Postby Farquaar » Sun Jan 20, 2019 8:35 pm #470271

Figured I'd parse the logs and annotate what I gathered from the story.

Zybwivcz requests a portal gun, but is politely rebuffed.
Spoiler:
Code: Select all
[2019-01-19 07:55:08.917] SAY: Zybwivcz/(Franklin Nash) "Can I get a portal gun?" (Starboard Primary Hallway (184, 127, 2))
[2019-01-19 07:55:20.053] SAY: Yakumo Chen/(Marisa Kirisame) "no" (Research and Development (184, 124, 2))
[2019-01-19 07:55:26.217] SAY: Yakumo Chen/(Marisa Kirisame) "and furthermore, fuck off" (Research and Development (184, 124, 2))


Chen stuns Zybwivcz in the science vestibule, presumably after Zybwivcz entered illicitly using the jaws of life. Chen drags Zybwivcz out into the science lobby, and returns to the science department.
Spoiler:
Code: Select all
[2019-01-19 07:55:44.118] ATTACK: Yakumo Chen/(Marisa Kirisame) has stunned Zybwivcz/(Franklin Nash) with [telescopic baton] (NEWHP: 100)  (Research Division (180, 125, 2))
[2019-01-19 07:55:45.026] ATTACK: Yakumo Chen/(Marisa Kirisame) has grabbed Zybwivcz/(Franklin Nash) passive grab (NEWHP: 100)  (Research Division (180, 125, 2))


Zybwivcz peers in through the science window, asks Chen to give back the tool he used to break into the vestibule.
Spoiler:
Code: Select all
[2019-01-19 07:56:09.502] SAY: Zybwivcz/(Franklin Nash) "Gimme my tool back" (Starboard Primary Hallway (184, 127, 2))


Within seconds, Chen wordlessly and immediately leaves science. Zybwivcz proceeds to run away, but is stunned, harmbatoned and dragged back to science by Chen.
Spoiler:
Code: Select all
[2019-01-19 07:56:09.837] ATTACK: Yakumo Chen/(Marisa Kirisame) has stunned Zybwivcz/(Franklin Nash) with [telescopic baton] (NEWHP: 100)  (Starboard Primary Hallway (183, 128, 2))

Some harmbatons

[2019-01-19 07:56:17.663] ATTACK: Yakumo Chen/(Marisa Kirisame) has grabbed Zybwivcz/(Franklin Nash) passive grab (NEWHP: 71.5)  (Starboard Primary Hallway (183, 128, 2))


Zybwivcz attampts to call out for help over the radio, but is beaten to death before any sort of help could arrive.
Spoiler:
Code: Select all
[2019-01-19 07:56:19.220] SAY: Zybwivcz/(Franklin Nash) "SEC to science" (Research Division (180, 124, 2))

[2019-01-19 07:56:22.371] ATTACK: Yakumo Chen/(Marisa Kirisame) has attacked Zybwivcz/(Franklin Nash) with telescopic baton[DC] (INTENT: HARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE)

[2019-01-19 07:56:22.197] SAY: Zybwivcz/(Franklin Nash) "RD traitor" (Research Division (179, 116, 2))

More harmbatons

[2019-01-19 07:56:42.002] EMOTE: Zybwivcz/(Franklin Nash) seizes up and falls limp, their eyes dead and lifeless... (Research Division (180, 121, 2))


Chen proceeds to drag Zybwivcz' corpse to robotics for forceborging.
Spoiler:
Code: Select all
[2019-01-19 07:56:59.972] SAY: Yakumo Chen/(Marisa Kirisame) "dumb engineer tried to break in and had an accident" (Research Division (181, 105, 2))

[2019-01-19 07:57:29.162] ATTACK: Yakumo Chen/(Marisa Kirisame) has grabbed *no key*/(Franklin Nash) passive grab (NEWHP: -133.8)  (Research Division (181, 120, 2))


A cyborg (Nursk1) attempts to drag Officer Beepsky to apprehend Chen, presumably to prevent further harm on their part. Chen flashes the borg twice and drags Zybwivcz's corpse into science for borging, where it is transferred to hands of the roboticist.
Spoiler:
Code: Select all
[2019-01-19 07:57:00.942] ATTACK: Nursk1/(Robot) has grabbed *no key*/(Officer Beepsky) passive grab (NEWHP: 15)  (Research Division (179, 120, 2))

[2019-01-19 07:57:16.539] ATTACK: Yakumo Chen/(Marisa Kirisame) has flashed Nursk1/(Robot) with [flash] (NEWHP: 100)  (Research Division (185, 119, 2))
[2019-01-19 07:57:27.098] ATTACK: Yakumo Chen/(Marisa Kirisame) has flashed Nursk1/(Robot) with [flash] (NEWHP: 100)  (Research Division (185, 119, 2))

[2019-01-19 07:57:29.162] ATTACK: Yakumo Chen/(Marisa Kirisame) has grabbed *no key*/(Franklin Nash) passive grab (NEWHP: -133.8)  (Research Division (181, 120, 2))

[2019-01-19 07:57:39.574] ATTACK: Asm7/(Imani Bicknell) has grabbed *no key*/(Franklin Nash) passive grab (NEWHP: -133.8)  (Robotics Lab (167, 119, 2))


Zybwivcz is borged.
Spoiler:
Code: Select all
[2019-01-19 07:57:45.719] GAME: *no key*/(Franklin Nash) *no key*/(Franklin Nash) is no longer owning mob Franklin Nash(/mob/dead/observer) (Security Post - Science (175, 112, 2))
[2019-01-19 07:57:45.719] ACCESS: Mob Login: Zybwivcz/(Franklin Nash) was assigned to a /mob/living/carbon/human
[2019-01-19 07:57:45.720] GAME: Zybwivcz/(Franklin Nash) Client Zybwivcz/(Franklin Nash) has taken ownership of mob Franklin Nash(/mob/living/carbon/human) (Robotics Lab (167, 118, 2))


Nursk1 proceeds to bolt Chen into a room. For the most part this is neither here nor there, but I figured I'd include it because it's funny.
Spoiler:
Code: Select all
[2019-01-19 07:58:07.445] SAY: Yakumo Chen/(Marisa Kirisame) "stop" (Research Division (180, 111, 2))
[2019-01-19 07:58:07.572] SAY: Nursk1/(Robot) "rd killed a human and attempted to blow borgs" (Research Director's Office (183, 106, 2))
[2019-01-19 07:59:58.507] SAY: Nursk1/(Robot) "i have locked rd in sec in sci" (Research Division (176, 115, 2))

[2019-01-19 08:01:06.471] SAY: Yakumo Chen/(Marisa Kirisame) "stop" (Research Division (181, 108, 2))
[2019-01-19 08:01:07.448] SAY: Yakumo Chen/(Marisa Kirisame) "law 2" (Research Division (181, 108, 2))

[2019-01-19 08:01:18.318] SAY: Yakumo Chen/(Marisa Kirisame) "that's not how law 1 works dipshit" (Research Division (181, 108, 2))

[2019-01-19 08:01:11.385] SAY: Nursk1/(Robot) "law 1 fuck off" (Research Division (180, 105, 2))
[2019-01-19 08:01:24.151] SAY: Nursk1/(Robot) "not that i can do anything to you and your harmful ass" (Research Division (180, 105, 2))


After a brief investigation, Luke Cox (Nocturnal Quill) asks Chen to clone Zybwivcz. Chen gives his reasoning as to why Zybwivcz deserved immediate extrajudicial execution. Chen agrees to clone Zybwivcz if he hasn't been borged yet, which he has.
Spoiler:
Code: Select all
[2019-01-19 08:04:06.423] SAY: NocturnalQuill/(Luke Cox) "AI says you killed someone" (Research Division (180, 109, 2))

[2019-01-19 08:04:07.972] SAY: Yakumo Chen/(Marisa Kirisame) "do I need to explain" (Research Division (180, 115, 2))
[2019-01-19 08:04:08.848] SAY: Yakumo Chen/(Marisa Kirisame) "yes" (Research Division (180, 119, 2))
[2019-01-19 08:04:15.585] SAY: Yakumo Chen/(Marisa Kirisame) "it was an engineer repeatedly breaking in" (Research Division (181, 107, 2))
[2019-01-19 08:04:21.512] SAY: Yakumo Chen/(Marisa Kirisame) "who stole the CE hardsuiot" (Research Division (180, 107, 2))
[2019-01-19 08:04:45.359] SAY: Yakumo Chen/(Marisa Kirisame) "I defended my department from an intruder" (Research Division (180, 108, 2))

[2019-01-19 08:04:43.392] SAY: NocturnalQuill/(Luke Cox) "RD, go clone them" (Research Division (181, 108, 2))

[2019-01-19 08:04:47.974] SAY: Yakumo Chen/(Marisa Kirisame) "sure" (Research Division (180, 108, 2))
[2019-01-19 08:04:54.234] SAY: Yakumo Chen/(Marisa Kirisame) "might be borged already though" (Research Division (180, 108, 2))

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Yakumo_Chen
 
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Re: [Names Are Hard] Escalation ruling

Postby Yakumo_Chen » Mon Jan 21, 2019 1:19 am #470318

As I mentioned to the admin when the actual ahelp was ongoing (admins can find it in the logs), someone pulling out an RCD is unlikely to show up in the logs, so it is just going to look like a wordless murder as far as the logs go (I admit thought I rebuffed him about the tool but I probably didn't bother when I saw the rcd ) I saw him pull it out and acted on what was a clear attempt to break in.

I don't lie in ahelps because again, I'm not a fucking idiot.

I don't know where else this thread has to go. Names said it was resolved and I'm not obliged to say if anything actually happened as a result. (Hint: I wasn't banned)

If you're hung up about me not eating a ban for it, try not breaking in next time. If you want to steal science points then you can probably print your own rnd console in engineering anyway. And print extra jaws of life.

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lmwevil
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Re: [Names Are Hard] Escalation ruling

Postby lmwevil » Mon Jan 21, 2019 3:03 am #470359

alrighty, fetched the ahelp logs related to the ticket


Spoiler:
[2019-01-19 07:57:41.149] ADMINPRIVATE: Ticket #2: Zybwivcz/(Franklin Nash): Marisa Kirisame just killed me for stepping one tile into science, don't think she's an antag just an asshole. - heard by 0 non-AFK admins who have +BAN.
[2019-01-19 07:59:08.223] ADMINPRIVATE: Ticket #3: Yakumo Chen/(Marisa Kirisame): borg is ignoring law 2 orders to stop arresting me for a guy that is dead and cannot be harmed further - heard by 1 non-AFK admins who have +BAN.
[2019-01-19 07:59:49.677] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Names Are Hard/(Lia Swarmer)->Yakumo Chen/(Marisa Kirisame): Can you give me some more context?
[2019-01-19 08:00:19.479] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Yakumo Chen/(Marisa Kirisame)->Names Are Hard/(Lia Swarmer): an engineer was repeatedly trying to break into science, so I killed him. the borg has been trying to use beepsky to arrest me despire the guy being dead and I'm not harming anyone else
[2019-01-19 08:00:32.001] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Yakumo Chen/(Marisa Kirisame)->Names Are Hard/(Lia Swarmer): I ordered the borg to stop arresting me as per law 2
[2019-01-19 08:01:22.062] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Names Are Hard/(Lia Swarmer)->Yakumo Chen/(Marisa Kirisame): They might be considering you the type of person who would kill someone for stepping in science.
[2019-01-19 08:02:02.772] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Yakumo Chen/(Marisa Kirisame)->Names Are Hard/(Lia Swarmer): well there's a greyshit in here and I haven't killed him, so that logic doesn't work
[2019-01-19 08:02:15.626] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Names Are Hard/(Lia Swarmer)->Zybwivcz/(Franklin Nash): What happened before you were killed? Did you have any other interactions with Marisa?
[2019-01-19 08:02:35.613] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Names Are Hard/(Lia Swarmer)->Yakumo Chen/(Marisa Kirisame): I'll talk to them about it. The borg is Robot, right?
[2019-01-19 08:02:49.688] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Yakumo Chen/(Marisa Kirisame)->Names Are Hard/(Lia Swarmer): yes
[2019-01-19 08:03:03.407] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Names Are Hard/(Lia Swarmer)->Nursk1/(Robot): Hi, can I have a word?
[2019-01-19 08:03:10.719] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Zybwivcz/(Franklin Nash)->Names Are Hard/(Lia Swarmer): I jaws-of-life'd open the first door to science and opened an oxygen closet right inside the door. Only thing I had done previously was stand at the window to RD and ask her to use spare research points
[2019-01-19 08:03:13.214] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Nursk1/(Robot)->Names Are Hard/(Lia Swarmer): sure
[2019-01-19 08:03:50.188] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Names Are Hard/(Lia Swarmer)->Nursk1/(Robot): Can you explain your logic behind trying to arrest the RD?
[2019-01-19 08:04:24.732] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Names Are Hard/(Lia Swarmer)->Yakumo Chen/(Marisa Kirisame): How many times did the engineer try to break in?
[2019-01-19 08:04:27.080] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Nursk1/(Robot)->Names Are Hard/(Lia Swarmer): saw him murder a man, and not arresting like space law
[2019-01-19 08:04:28.958] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Yakumo Chen/(Marisa Kirisame)->Names Are Hard/(Lia Swarmer): twice
[2019-01-19 08:05:14.636] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Names Are Hard/(Lia Swarmer)->Yakumo Chen/(Marisa Kirisame): Did they do anything to disturb you while in science?
[2019-01-19 08:06:04.514] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Names Are Hard/(Lia Swarmer)->Nursk1/(Robot): So you believed that they would kill more people in the future?
[2019-01-19 08:06:13.782] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Yakumo Chen/(Marisa Kirisame)->Names Are Hard/(Lia Swarmer): they were trying to RCD the window down and were bothering me about tech points and asking for techs that were pretty far in, they started breaking in after I told them to fuck off so I assume they were breaking in to fuck with things
[2019-01-19 08:06:26.411] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Nursk1/(Robot)->Names Are Hard/(Lia Swarmer): yeah, he also tried to blow me, but i turned off power in rd office before he could
[2019-01-19 08:08:33.416] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Names Are Hard/(Lia Swarmer)->Zybwivcz/(Franklin Nash): Why were you trying to get into sci?
[2019-01-19 08:09:25.894] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Zybwivcz/(Franklin Nash)->Names Are Hard/(Lia Swarmer): There were a zillion unused research points showing on the engi R&D console. I wanted to make sure they weren't just piling up because sci was fucking around
[2019-01-19 08:10:06.984] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Names Are Hard/(Lia Swarmer)->Yakumo Chen/(Marisa Kirisame): It seems the borg saw you as someone who escalates to harm very quickly, since you outright killed someone for intruding in your department rather than critting or arresting them.
[2019-01-19 08:10:55.282] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Yakumo Chen/(Marisa Kirisame)->Names Are Hard/(Lia Swarmer): I didn't really have the tools to arrest and the borg was interfering when I was putting him in crit, leaving me with no real options, and then the other guy went the full way
[2019-01-19 08:12:38.544] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Names Are Hard/(Lia Swarmer)->Nursk1/(Robot): Wait a bit.
[2019-01-19 08:13:22.767] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Names Are Hard/(Lia Swarmer)->Yakumo Chen/(Marisa Kirisame): Did you intend to kill the engineer, or were you trying to nonlethally arrest them?
[2019-01-19 08:13:38.392] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Zybwivcz/(Franklin Nash)->Names Are Hard/(Lia Swarmer): For what it's worth Marisa's done this kind of non-valid lethal escalation stuff to me before. To a different character, so it's not some metagrudge they just like to kill people for shitty reasons.
[2019-01-19 08:14:00.865] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Yakumo Chen/(Marisa Kirisame)->Names Are Hard/(Lia Swarmer): I honestly was just going to borg him for trying to break in, I assumed he wanted to fuck with my research points and generally be an ass because I told him to fuck off
[2019-01-19 08:14:17.773] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Yakumo Chen/(Marisa Kirisame)->Names Are Hard/(Lia Swarmer): he didn't get the message the first time I kicked him out either
[2019-01-19 08:17:39.941] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Names Are Hard/(Lia Swarmer)->Nursk1/(Robot): We're all good here. /// Ticket closed at this point with the borg
[2019-01-19 08:18:20.674] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Names Are Hard/(Lia Swarmer)->Yakumo Chen/(Marisa Kirisame): When you say you kicked them out, did you physically stun them and throw them out?
[2019-01-19 08:18:26.929] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Yakumo Chen/(Marisa Kirisame)->Names Are Hard/(Lia Swarmer): yes
[2019-01-19 08:19:29.005] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Names Are Hard/(Lia Swarmer)->Yakumo Chen/(Marisa Kirisame): Logs are only showing him intruding once.
[2019-01-19 08:19:42.955] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Yakumo Chen/(Marisa Kirisame)->Names Are Hard/(Lia Swarmer): he took out his RCD and was going for the research window
[2019-01-19 08:20:05.258] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Names Are Hard/(Lia Swarmer)->Yakumo Chen/(Marisa Kirisame): That's not grounds for killing someone.
[2019-01-19 08:20:18.614] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Yakumo Chen/(Marisa Kirisame)->Names Are Hard/(Lia Swarmer): he was clearly breaking in a second time
[2019-01-19 08:20:57.783] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Names Are Hard/(Lia Swarmer)->Yakumo Chen/(Marisa Kirisame): Logs are showing you stunning, then immediately killing him.
[2019-01-19 08:21:18.470] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Yakumo Chen/(Marisa Kirisame)->Names Are Hard/(Lia Swarmer): the logs aren't going to show I saw him trying to break down a window with an RCD
[2019-01-19 08:22:19.690] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Names Are Hard/(Lia Swarmer)->Yakumo Chen/(Marisa Kirisame): So you killed him because he RCD'd your window and entered sci?
[2019-01-19 08:22:48.573] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Yakumo Chen/(Marisa Kirisame)->Names Are Hard/(Lia Swarmer): after his first break in attempt with a jaws of life, yes
[2019-01-19 08:24:04.122] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Names Are Hard/(Lia Swarmer)->Yakumo Chen/(Marisa Kirisame): I'm going to note you for overescalation here. Killing someone for trying to enter your department once and actually entering once before they actually do anything harmful is going too far.
[2019-01-19 08:24:48.327] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Yakumo Chen/(Marisa Kirisame)->Names Are Hard/(Lia Swarmer): isn't it within the rules I am allowed a lot more leeway to defend my department then regular escalation?
[2019-01-19 08:25:31.097] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Yakumo Chen/(Marisa Kirisame)->Names Are Hard/(Lia Swarmer): You may defend your workplace from trespassers who damage or steal property within that space with significantly greater force than elsewhere. If someone is severely disruptive and returns after ejected, this opens them up to "fun" of the creative workplace death variety.
[2019-01-19 08:26:05.252] ADMINPRIVATE: Names Are Hard/(Lia Swarmer) has created a note for Yakumo Chen /// redacted unless a headmin tells me to fetch it
[2019-01-19 08:26:18.740] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Names Are Hard/(Lia Swarmer)->Yakumo Chen/(Marisa Kirisame): Did they steal anything or cause damage?
[2019-01-19 08:30:45.390] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Names Are Hard/(Lia Swarmer)->Zybwivcz/(Franklin Nash): They've been handled.
[2019-01-19 08:31:14.369] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Zybwivcz/(Franklin Nash)->Names Are Hard/(Lia Swarmer): Thanks /// both tickets marked as resolved at this time
[2019-01-19 08:43:00.873] ADMINPRIVATE: Ticket #7: Yakumo Chen/(Marisa Kirisame): I want my note changed as they clearly made two attempts to break in - heard by 1 non-AFK admins who have +BAN.
[2019-01-19 08:43:19.945] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Names Are Hard/(Lia Swarmer)->Yakumo Chen/(Marisa Kirisame): Alright.
[2019-01-19 08:43:36.343] ADMINPRIVATE: Names Are Hard/(Lia Swarmer) has edited a note for Yakumo Chen /// exact wording was edited for clarification
[2019-01-19 08:48:02.750] ADMINPRIVATE: Ticket #8: Zybwivcz/(Franklin Nash): Since I see they weren't an antag, I really don't understand how that could possibly have been valid. Don't know what Marisa claimed, but I just stepped in the front door of sci and didn't break or take anything - heard by 1 non-AFK admins who have +BAN. // roundend ahelp of player assuming nothing was done


without looking all that, deeply seems like Names are Hard put work into investigating this issue and came to a verdict appropriately

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Re: [Names Are Hard] Escalation ruling

Postby Zybwivcz » Mon Jan 21, 2019 4:55 am #470400

lmwevil wrote:alrighty, fetched the ahelp logs related to the ticket

without looking all that, deeply seems like Names are Hard put work into investigating this issue and came to a verdict appropriately


I can kind of see the point, if N.A.H. had accurate and truthful information. But despite claiming otherwise Marisa obviously had the "tools to arrest" like the collapsible baton I was killed with, and actively worked to keep a borg from stopping the killing, as well as straight out killing me rather than even just leaving me in crit. They didn't kill me and try to forceborg me because they had no other good option and were just defending their department, they just did it because they wanted to.

There was also no attempt to clone me. I was in an MMI and then in a mech hanging around robotics for the rest of the round, so it would have been very easy.

And again, I didn't try to break into science a second time. I didn't deconstruct anything, I didn't attempt to deconstruct anything, I didn't threaten to deconstruct anything. I have no idea what I was holding when Marisa came out to kill me, I went to the window to ask for the jaws of life back, but the idea that I'd stand in front of a window so they could see I was going to try to break in doesn't make any sense at all. Nor does the idea that my wordlessly standing there was such an urgent threat that Marisa deciding to leave science and then drag me back inside science to kill me.

Here's the Rule 1 Precedent from the wiki that's quoted in the ahelp logs:
"You may defend your workplace from trespassers who damage or steal property within that space with significantly greater force than elsewhere. If someone is severely disruptive and returns after ejected, this opens them up to "fun" of the creative workplace death variety."

I wasn't trespassing in science when I was stunned and killed. I died inside science because I was dragged inside to be killed there. I didn't damage or steal any property or a single tile or even attempt to. My first and only attempt to get into science was to jaws open the very first door into science, which is not "severely disruptive" nor did I try to return after being ejected.

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Re: [Names Are Hard] Escalation ruling

Postby oranges » Mon Jan 21, 2019 6:55 am #470437

Yakumo_Chen wrote:I don't know where else this thread has to go. Names said it was resolved and I'm not obliged to say if anything actually happened as a result. (Hint: I wasn't banned)


To the headadmins, for a final resolution obviously.
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Re: [Names Are Hard] Escalation ruling

Postby Nervere » Sat Jan 26, 2019 6:29 am #471969

An examination of the ahelp exchange between Names Are Hard and all involved parties, which is available in this thread, show that the investigation for this incident was rather extensive and aimed to get all details before taking action. That’s the best we can ask of an admin during an investigation. Yakumo’s actions here were clearly in the wrong, which is why Names Are Hard chose to resolve the ticket after giving Yakumo a note warning her for escalation.

One might argue that a note is light for the situation that transpired, but Names Are Hard admits that there was a slight misunderstanding with the situation, which probably accounts for this. Admins aren’t perfect and sometimes they make mistakes - but in Names’ case, his ahelp investigation was excellent and thorough, so there is little fault to be found.
In the end, the offending player was punished, and the investigating admin conducted an extensive investigation to determine that punishment. One thing that could have been done better is informing the reporting party that the player had been punished.
Other than that, there is nothing actionable in Names’ conduct, so we have chosen to not uphold this complaint.


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