[NecromancerAnne] Sandshark808 - Bizarre ruling on RDM

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[NecromancerAnne] Sandshark808 - Bizarre ruling on RDM

Postby Sandshark808 » Wed Sep 04, 2019 7:34 pm #512519

Byond account and character name: Sandshark808, Steals-the-Gloves
Admin: NecromancerAnne
Time and Server incident occurred: Sybil, around 12:30 or 1:00 AM on 9/4/2019
ROUND ID HERE: 117805
Detailed summary:

So, this round had some admin fuckery going on that I really don't know the full extent of and I can't really comment on that. I was a chef who became a shaft miner and missed most of it, but when I got back onto the station there was a centcom official there who had shown up with the objective of arresting someone (a known traitor) who apparently had gotten lizard tail removal surgery and became human, or something.

Anyway, I decided out of a sense of lizard brotherhood to help centcom perform the arrest however I could. There was a bit of messing around, I gave them a fake gun from cargo, and after the HoS arrested the lizard officer I went to security to free him. That wasn't really necessary since they had apparently worked out the misunderstanding, or so I thought. I would come to find out later that, as soon as he got out of sec, the AI had killed him with a welding borg-tool and spaced the body.

I ended up catching the traitor and pushing him into a disposal, which meant he was stuck in cargo until someone came to arrest him. I called on the comms telling people where he was and waited for sec or centcom to show up. Instead, the AI showed up. I figured he'd go past me and release the guy, and whatever it's out of my hands at that point.

What he actually did was flash me, and then, instead of just getting the guy while I was down, he beat me to death, carried me out of the arrivals airlock, went into space a ways to be sure I wouldn't get rescued, and threw me. I checked the AI's laws and he was not subverted. His only outstanding law was that the traitor was human (not OneHuman, but "he is also a human"), which doesn't give him license to murder me for no reason.

Naturally I ahelped that. However, NecromancerAnne declared it an IC issue because I had helped the centcom agent, even though I didn't harm anyone or threaten harm to anyone, and I was posing no hindrance to the AI just opening the door for the guy and letting him leave. They cited the fact that someone found me and cloned me at roundend as a mitigating factor, which doesn't really diminish the act of RDMing by a non-antag non-usurped AI in my opinion. Especially because the AI went out of their way to hide me, and it was only by sheer luck that I wound up on a z-level that someone found me on.

As I said, I don't believe this was the correct judgment, and I don't really trust any further resolutions by this admin in light of the situation. For one thing, non-antag murder is not an IC issue. Admin event or not, I was assisting a lawful order by central command to aid in the arrest of a known criminal (who had publicly dropped an emag and other traitor gear) without violence. For the AI to go around murdering people without escalation, and going straight to lethal violence when he had already stunned me with a flash and I had done nothing violent at all, this is at least worthy of a temporary silicon ban for the player in question (Nari Harimoto, I think).

Secondly, there's not really a proper escalation tree for silicons in the first place. Even if I had survived, and had potentially fought off or disabled the AI shell, I would have been hounded by an essentially unkillable AI player for the rest of the round. Given their obvious desire to kill and space anyone they felt was valid, if they got another AI shell they would no doubt have returned to kill me again, seeing it as "valid escalation." Without busting into the AI core and disabling them I would be easy pickings and they wouldn't get any equivalent IC consequences to death and spacing.



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oranges
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Re: [NecromancerAnne] Sandshark808 - Bizarre ruling on RDM

Postby oranges » Wed Sep 04, 2019 8:51 pm #512524

I played as the lizard ambassador and basically I accidentally incited a riot, shooting a cargo tech who shot me with a foam force with my revolver and threatning to murder john human (a human lizard man).

Honestly im not sure why the borgs murdered other people other than me, Im not sure they should have been allowed to actually kill other lizards and permanently remove them from the round, as that's just a total dick move

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Re: [NecromancerAnne] Sandshark808 - Bizarre ruling on RDM

Postby NecromancerAnne » Wed Sep 04, 2019 9:08 pm #512527

Although I don't have a huge amount of time right now to handle this one, as I got up literally half an hour ago and I need to go do stuff today, I will say that this is likely a situation where I didn't give enough feedback.

So the AI player in question was being instructed by the heads that John Human, a 'human', is pretty important. They're giving a lot of emphasis on the protection of John Human and that the Lizard Ambassador is a threat. I also agree that the AI killing and spacing you for 'trapping' John was an overreaction on the AI's part, especially since he did so without saying a word. I don't believe that was a good thing at all, and had you not been cloned after the incident that AI would have received some kind of further punishment. But I chose to keep it to explaining to the AI how to properly handle these kinds of conflicts in a way that doesn't involve having to kill people who do not explicitly cause harm to human as a nonhuman and that spacing someone is kind of extreme. They seemed responsive and apologetic, so I felt it was enough.

It's not like I brushed off the incident entirely, and I'm sorry you felt that way and that is probably because I didn't tell you what was discussed. But I felt the entire situation was in part an IC issue and it wasn't just because you were siding with the Ambassador, but that the heads were very much trying to push the AI to protect John Human too. The fact that the Ambassador was sent to kill John was actually a deliberate attempt to cause these kinds of conflicts, but you would have had no way of knowing that and you got embroiled in it.

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Re: [NecromancerAnne] Sandshark808 - Bizarre ruling on RDM

Postby Sandshark808 » Wed Sep 04, 2019 9:21 pm #512530

Even if it's as you say, there's no excuse for a long-time player to go on a murdering spree as a silicon. They had a non-violent solution right in front of them, and used it, but went the extra step to kill me while I was blacked out from being flashed. They could have even just put me in crit and taken me to medbay, but they chose, again, to deliberately make me impossible to clone. If bans are avoided by the sheer luck of hitting the right Z-level and being revived, then what's the point of having specific rules about removal from the round? The intent was there. They had three chances to avoid it, and didn't.

Not to mention, they didn't "seem apologetic" when they taunted me in OOC chat after the round ended, saying I was mad for not being good enough to survive. I intentionally didn't fight back. I didn't think I was going to die because I had no reason to kill them, and they had no reason to kill me. Especially in defense of a known and outed Syndicate traitor, and in contravention of orders by the Nanotrasen representative who they also murdered in cold blood and removed from the round.

[2019-09-04 08:07:52.171] OOC: 08:07:52.171] OOC: Nari Harimoto/(H.A.R.I.N.O Viva Edition) "sandsharker mad cuz bad" (Emergency Shuttle (212, 70, 1))
[2019-09-04 08:08:27.634] OOC: 08:08:27.634] OOC: Nari Harimoto/(H.A.R.I.N.O Viva Edition) "i killed the ligger ambassador for saying he released a virus, i then killed another ligger who said they had John Human trapped and was going to give him to the enemy" (Emergency Shuttle (212, 70, 1))

Not to mention telling people not to save me:

[2019-09-04 07:47:35.694] SAY: 07:47:35.694] SAY: Anola Addictus/(HUMAN) (binary) "Robots we got some wounded in space and maint" (Medbay Central (89, 98, 2))
[2019-09-04 07:48:26.537] SAY: 07:48:26.537] SAY: Nari Harimoto/(H.A.R.I.N.O Viva Edition shell 107 - Engineering) (binary) "ignore the two liggers in space" (Cryogenics (84, 100, 2))
Last edited by Sandshark808 on Wed Sep 04, 2019 9:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: [NecromancerAnne] Sandshark808 - Bizarre ruling on RDM

Postby NecromancerAnne » Wed Sep 04, 2019 9:27 pm #512533

Well I didn't see that conversation in OOC because at the time I was handling a shuttle bombing as well as your ahelp. The appeal up at the moment was literally that bombing because I couldn't get the person who did it to respond.

Also, I think you're mistaken for the playtime of the player. They have about 400 connections total and joined literally four months ago.

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Re: [NecromancerAnne] Sandshark808 - Bizarre ruling on RDM

Postby Sandshark808 » Wed Sep 04, 2019 9:29 pm #512534

NecromancerAnne wrote:Well I didn't see that conversation in OOC because at the time I was handling a shuttle bombing as well as your ahelp. The appeal up at the moment was literally that bombing because I couldn't get the person who did it to respond.

Also, I think you're mistaken for the playtime of the player. They have about 400 connections total and joined literally four months ago.


I edited in some more logs. They were telling people specifically not to find or clone us.

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Re: [NecromancerAnne] Sandshark808 - Bizarre ruling on RDM

Postby ATHATH » Thu Sep 05, 2019 6:04 pm #512714

Sandshark808 wrote:
NecromancerAnne wrote:Well I didn't see that conversation in OOC because at the time I was handling a shuttle bombing as well as your ahelp. The appeal up at the moment was literally that bombing because I couldn't get the person who did it to respond.

Also, I think you're mistaken for the playtime of the player. They have about 400 connections total and joined literally four months ago.


I edited in some more logs. They were telling people specifically not to find or clone us.

And this was after NA had their talk with them, correct?

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Re: [NecromancerAnne] Sandshark808 - Bizarre ruling on RDM

Postby Sandshark808 » Thu Sep 05, 2019 7:11 pm #512728

ATHATH wrote:
Sandshark808 wrote:
NecromancerAnne wrote:Well I didn't see that conversation in OOC because at the time I was handling a shuttle bombing as well as your ahelp. The appeal up at the moment was literally that bombing because I couldn't get the person who did it to respond.

Also, I think you're mistaken for the playtime of the player. They have about 400 connections total and joined literally four months ago.


I edited in some more logs. They were telling people specifically not to find or clone us.

And this was after NA had their talk with them, correct?


It was after I ahelped, but I don't know when Anne talked with them.

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Re: [NecromancerAnne] Sandshark808 - Bizarre ruling on RDM

Postby Karp » Sun Sep 22, 2019 2:06 am #516032

This complaint is denied and will not be upheld.

Silicons are generally allowed more lenient escalation rules towards people outside of the purview of their laws. e.g. purged AIs plasmaflooding in retaliation for repeated attempted lawchanges/core break ins, silicons killing nonhumans based on orders, silicons killing nonhumans over attacking them.

The silicon in question here was talked to for acting slightly out of line by killing you and spacing you over trapping the event VIP in question. You were cloned afterwards. NecromancerAnne handled this situation well within their powers and logical decision-making by deciding a verbal warning and reminder to the silicon player in question that escalating to attempted permanent round removal instantly shouldn't be done if other options exist.

Our admins are encouraged to take what they believe is the necessary punishment(s) for the severity of certain actions up to and including bans and simple verbal reminders/warnings. NecromancerAnne handled the situation in this way and as such it was resolved and handled.
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