Dr. Aura - Condescending Attitude and Questionable Ruling

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sinisterspeaker
 
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Dr. Aura - Condescending Attitude and Questionable Ruling

Postby sinisterspeaker » Fri Sep 13, 2019 1:42 am #514392

When and where this incident occured (Game Server, forums, Discord): /tg/station 13 Sibyl-1
Byond account and character name OR Discord name: SinisterSpeaker
Admin: Dr. Aura
ROUND ID HERE IF APPLICABLE: 118461
Detailed summary:

All right. Here I am. Dr. Aura, rather than deal with my issues in-game, had me come here and waste my time making a forum account to complain about his irredeemable behaviour: I believe this may have been a bluff on Aura's part, however, as I don't see how a person in his position could ever believe that the decisions he has made here tonight could be defined as anything other than "disgusting". So, here I am, Aura - shall we begin?

Round start. I am Gage Moore, and I am an assistant. I said "round start", but in reality, I was joining this round during the autumn of it's life - that is to say, it was close to ending. So, upon joining the round and getting off the shuttle, I start searching for supplies, as I am wont to do during rounds that have accumulated a less-than-desirable amount of chaos. Perusing the maintenance tunnels, I come across an air canister, full of AIR (this is an important distinction for later), and it immediately piques my interest. Being a veteran Space Station 13 player, I am familiar with many different ways to harmlessly mess with - or, PRANK - my fellow crew members: opening an air canister at max pressure is one of the ways you can do this. Opening an air canister at max pressure is, at MOST, a minor annoyance. It pushes you around a bit. It hikes up the pressure in a small room, and makes very little impact on a medium-to-large room. It. Is. HARMLESS. Now, I ALSO understand that a canister can be used as a weapon - as can most things. A smart player can utilize a canister's pressure build-up to DEVASTATING effects, causing the room in which the canister is opened to be flooded with overheated gases and the like. This was, however, not what I was planning to do with my canister. I was merely planning to open it in a small room, and make people lose control of their feet for a bit.

Now, I'll apologize during this intermission if the formatting of this complaint is not up to par. It is late where I am at the moment, and I have just gotten home from a long day of work, so if things aren't as they should be, that is my fault. Anywho, onto the next part!

So. Where we last left off, I had retrieved an air canister from a closet, deliberated what to do with it, and came up with a plan and went on my way. The round in question took place on the MetaStation map, and so the Supply department was the first department I came upon. Immediately on sight, I knew they were my target: small room (Cargo Office), high-staffed, and a clear entrance (airlock was open) gave me everything I needed to engage, and so I did. Run in - BAM! Canister at MAX! Air starts spraying everywhere, and the pressure difference causes THE SUPPLY CREW TO START MOVING. MANY SHIFTINGS OF THE LOWER EXTREMITIES WERE MADE DURING THIS TIME AS THE AIR FORCIBLY PUSHED THE EMPLOYEES OF THE CARGO BAY AROUND THE OFFICE...

Ahem...

Now, perhaps somewhat predictably, the Cargo Bay retaliated to this prank with a little prank of their own! You see, they were equipped with foam riot shotguns, though I do not have the logs to provide proof of this. They began disarming me and shooting me, and I started doing the same - just a little harmless fun, right? WRONG. Enter Moffster. This BUG thought it was OK to take this playful messing-about a step FURTHER, and began to table and KICK me. I was unarmed and incapacitated during the entire ordeal. It wasn't until I reached orange health that I realized he might've actually intended to kill me, and so, when I was finally able to resist, I gave him two (2) whacks with a fire extinguisher pulled from the wall compartment to give him a little taste of his own medicine. Moffster, perhaps predictably, did not just TAKE this, and immediately disarmed me and proceeded to kill me in the Cargo Bay:

https://imgur.com/a/GQKdH2T

(Pardon the shoddy logs... I am new to this)

Anyway, I'm dead. That sucks! I don't want to be dead! I just worked all day, and want to play my favourite game with my favourite online community! So, I do what anyone in my position would do: I reach out to the administration, in the hopes that they would uphold the integrity of the server they volunteer for and PUNISH this player for their clear violation of the escalation ruling. After several messages sent across the admin-PM/deadchat channels, I FINALLY get confirmation from a one "Dr. Aura", who responds with such...

https://imgur.com/a/mSgNpbq

OK...? "Compromise an entire section"? Really? Well, you'll have to elaborate, Dr. Aura, because from my diverse knowledge of Space Station 13's systems, as well as the CLEAR EVIDENCE THAT THE CARGO BAY'S ATMOSPHERIC SYSTEM WAS NOT IN ANY WAY COMPROMISED DUE TO MY SHENANIGANS, I can see no issue with what I have done. So, please, elaborate...

https://imgur.com/a/NYdmATT

W-Whoa... all right! Question marks, huh? A little condescending, are we, Aura? That's quite the tone you've taken with me, a player who is merely curious as to why 1) you are questioning ME instead of my MURDERER, and 2) your claims of an air canister's potential, which I am aware, but also of which I have not utilized in my prank done on the Cargo Bay. So, please, Aura, curb the fucking 'tude… sorry.

At this point, I went on to say some things that I'm... not proud of. I'll admit it. I patronized Dr. Aura and his position within the admin hierarchy, and I resorted to name-calling: something which I do not consider to be indicative of someone capable of producing an intelligent argument. Nonetheless, let my dirty mouth show that I am EMOTIONALLY CHARGED ABOUT INJUSTICE, and truly believed at this moment that I was being wronged by the very people I believed were here to protect me. And so, I sarcastically remarked that it was I who was in the wrong in Aura's eyes, to which he responded after much time...

https://imgur.com/a/qCAij3L

A lot to process here! First, Aura says he "would've done the same", which is another issue entirely, and really brings into question his quality as a PLAYER, not just an admin! Next, Aura presents me with the aforementioned CHALLENGE, and then in all of his arrogance and bravado, claims that I "won't get the desired effect"... really? Aura... what do you suppose the "desired effect" would be for me? To get you removed from the admin team? Blacklisted from the community? HAVE YOUR BODY STRUNG UP AND QUARTERED AND HAVE YOUR REMAINS THROWN IN A DITCH? Aura, my man, it's not that serious! Well, not that serious, but I still take this seriously! You've definitely wronged me at this point, and I won't stand for it, but I don't necessarily need to see you punished. Not that I would be opposed to that, either, but you get the idea. Just chill out, Aura, you're not that important.

And that is more-or-less where it ends. I go on to tell Aura he is a human being incapable of rational thought and call him a blowhard, and in reponse he again invites me to post a complaint. The round ends shortly thereafter, and some of our disagreement pours into OOC, where Moffster's player (The_Birb) steps in and sloppily defends his actions. Aura catches our OOC argument, and rallies behind his legion of supporters to essentially silence me and put me into a corner, and at that point, I decided this complaint needed to be written, and... now it's done.

P.S.: It's worth noting that the next round I went to the EXACT SAME CANISTER that I opened the round prior, and opened it AT MAX PRESSURE in a 4x5(?) room to no (zero) [0] effect. It did no damage. Food for thought.



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MortoSasye
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Re: Dr. Aura - Condescending Attitude and Questionable Ruling

Postby MortoSasye » Fri Sep 13, 2019 1:57 am #514398

Logs from:https://tgstation13.org/raw-logs/sybil/data/logs/2019/09/12/round-118461/game.log

Ahelp conversation:
[2019-09-13 00:21:39.190] ADMINPRIVATE: Ticket #3: SinisterSpeaker/(Gage Moore): moffster killed me
[2019-09-13 00:24:22.444] ADMINPRIVATE: Ticket #3: SinisterSpeaker/(Gage Moore): can i get some confirmation that my ticket is being looked into. dude took me out of the round and is stashing my body because of a pretty harmless joke.
[2019-09-13 00:25:02.634] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Dr. Aura/(Tickles-The-Ivory)->SinisterSpeaker/(Gage Moore): It is, and doing something that can compromise an entire section isn't really a good joke.
[2019-09-13 00:25:26.472] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: SinisterSpeaker/(Gage Moore)->Dr. Aura/(Tickles-The-Ivory): how exactly does it compromise an entire section. it's air. i gave them air.
[2019-09-13 00:26:04.195] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Dr. Aura/(Tickles-The-Ivory)->SinisterSpeaker/(Gage Moore): Overpressure can cause brute damage? You can fill tanks with things other than that which they are labeled?
[2019-09-13 00:26:33.844] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: SinisterSpeaker/(Gage Moore)->Dr. Aura/(Tickles-The-Ivory): oh, so I'M in the wrong, then. got it. you might want to check your tone, trial admin. // Trial admins are full admins, careful there Karen.
[2019-09-13 00:26:41.992] ADMINPRIVATE: Ticket #3: SinisterSpeaker/(Gage Moore): you're being a bit of a prick.
[2019-09-13 00:28:14.070] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Dr. Aura/(Tickles-The-Ivory)->SinisterSpeaker/(Gage Moore): Yes you're in the wrong, because in the same situation I would have shot someone running into my department trying to max canister it too. If you want to report me for doing my job, feel free, but I don't think you'll get the desired effect.
[2019-09-13 00:29:43.709] ADMINPRIVATE: Ticket <A HREF='?_src_=holder;admin_token=2461053760167474510930772572926120;ahelp=[0x21049103];ahelp_action=ticket'>#3</A> resolved by <a href='?priv_msg=draura'>Dr. Aura</a>/(Tickles-The-Ivory)
[2019-09-13 00:30:00.766] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: SinisterSpeaker/(Gage Moore)->Dr. Aura/(Tickles-The-Ivory): well, you&#39;ve demonstrated pretty clearly that you&#39;re not a person who is capable of rational thought, so it doesn&#39;t matter what YOU would do in the situation. how about instead of being condescending towards me and siding with the guy who killed me for opening a canister full of AIR, you actually investigate the issue, you blowhard?
[2019-09-13 00:31:23.387] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Dr. Aura/(Tickles-The-Ivory)->SinisterSpeaker/(Gage Moore): I have investigated the issue and already made my ruling. If you don't like my findings, the way I conduct myself or feel slighted because I didn't rule in your favor, the forum takes admin complaints here: viewforum.php?f=23
[2019-09-13 00:31:27.227] ADMINPRIVATE: Ticket <A HREF='?_src_=holder;admin_token=2461053760167474510930772572926120;ahelp=[0x21049c95];ahelp_action=ticket'>#5</A> closed by <a href='?priv_msg=draura'>Dr. Aura</a>/(Tickles-The-Ivory).


Relevant rules that mark your issue as IC:

If a player wrongs you(theft, attacks, etc), you may retaliate. If you choose to retaliate with violence, you in turn have opened yourself up to violence. If you choose this route, do not expect admins to help you out if you die, even if you were not the original instigator. If you are concerned about being "kill baited" then consider calling security, using non lethal means to subdue your opponent, fleeing, or otherwise working things out (talking them down, getting your stolen items replaced, etc)

from: https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Rules#Escalation
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PostThis post was deleted by wubli on Fri Sep 13, 2019 2:07 am.
Reason: peanut

PostThis post was deleted by wubli on Fri Sep 13, 2019 2:09 am.
Reason: being in the round doesn't mean you were involved boris baby peanut

sinisterspeaker
 
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Re: Dr. Aura - Condescending Attitude and Questionable Ruling

Postby sinisterspeaker » Fri Sep 13, 2019 2:22 am #514410

MortoSasye wrote:-snip-


That's not how it was with previous /tg/ rulings, nor how it should be now. What I did was a harmless joke, and the response from the players involved was waaay over-the-top. What transpired was not a "punch for a punch" escalating fight: it was full-on right from the get-go, and the defence from both the admin and the player that was primarily involved was unsatisfactory. I don't put a lot of stock into the current ruling, and I think this incident should serve as a grounds to revise the policy in that regard. It's completely ridiculous to have PROTECTED BY THE RULES a player who can MURDER SOMEONE FOR SLIPPING THEM WITH A BANANA PEEL OR SOMETHING OF SIMILAR SIGNIFICANCE.

It also begs the question: had I not retaliated with my own violence, would Moffster have been in trouble? He delivered quite a lot of damage to me in a short period of time, and showed no signs of stopping, so are you to have me believe that I denied myself protection from the administration by defending myself in-game? Do you not see how that is flawed?

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Re: Dr. Aura - Condescending Attitude and Questionable Ruling

Postby Dr. Aura » Fri Sep 13, 2019 3:04 am #514423

For the sake of brevity, my own sanity and the fact I have work in the morning, I'm going to strip away the narrative and operate with the facts of the case presented. I operate on a legal standard, so I will be explaining my thought processes in full with the patent-pending FIRAC method.

Facts:
The round's antagonist was a cult (https://tgstation13.org/raw-logs/sybil/ ... 1/game.log),

[2019-09-13 00:02:56.646] GAME: 1GlitchyCent/(1GlitchyCent) has been selected as a cultist
[2019-09-13 00:02:56.646] GAME: Mulligan2/(Mulligan2) has been selected as a cultist
[2019-09-13 00:02:56.646] GAME: Gameaddict07/(Gameaddict07) has been selected as a cultist
[2019-09-13 00:02:56.646] GAME: Ronnysland/(Ronnysland) has been selected as a cultist
[2019-09-13 00:02:56.646] GAME: ToastGoats/(ToastGoats) has been selected as a cultist
[2019-09-13 00:02:56.646] GAME: Shirbu/(Shirbu) has been selected as a cultist


Which both the public and Cargo were aware of at the time of this incident occurring,

[2019-09-13 00:13:17.394] SAY: The Birb/(Moffster) "CULT" (Cargo Office (77, 138, 2))

The claimant, a non-antagonist at the time of incident, acquired and brought an air canister from maintenance into the cargo bay, setting the pressure to maximum and opening it to the room (https://tgstation13.org/raw-logs/sybil/ ... atmos.html),

00:19:54 [0x2004f9a] (75,141,2) || the air canister was set to 1013 kPa by SinisterSpeaker/(Gage Moore).
00:19:54 [0x2004f9a] (75,141,2) || the air canister Valve was opened by SinisterSpeaker/(Gage Moore), starting a transfer into the air.


Which was quickly reverted by the QM,

00:19:58 [0x2004f9a] (78,141,2) || the air canister was set to 10.1325 kPa by The Birb/(Moffster).
00:19:59 [0x2004f9a] (78,141,2) || the air canister Valve was closed by The Birb/(Moffster), stopping the transfer into the air.


Interestingly enough, the first attack between the accused and the claimant (The Birb, Leonxnoel; SinisterSpeaker respectively) did not come from the former, but from the latter (https://tgstation13.org/raw-logs/sybil/ ... attack.log),

[2019-09-13 00:20:00.804] ATTACK: SinisterSpeaker/(Gage Moore) has attacked Arturidot/(Elro Emontra) with Generic extra-strong absinthe (NEWHP: 85) (Cargo Office (78, 139, 2))

Regardless, it was at this point that, as the claimant mentions, he was curbstomped with the utmost of ceremony, which is reflected in the logs. After this, the ahelp was submitted and the conversation posted in full came about. These are not in question and the remainder of the complaints are not pertinent to the core of this issue, so I will not be addressing them further.

Issue:
To distill the conflict of this issue down for those who don't want to parse the logs of the round, the claimant is alleging that their actions did not constitute probable cause for the cargo crew to murder them, rending my ruling moot on grounds of mistake of rules and exclusionary rule.

Rule(s):
In this case, there is a twofold standard that can be applied to this case;

The Escalation Policy (https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Rules#Escalation), reading "If a player wrongs you(theft, attacks, etc), you may retaliate. If you choose to retaliate with violence, you in turn have opened yourself up to violence. If you choose this route, do not expect admins to help you out if you die, even if you were not the original instigator."
Rule 4 (https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Rules#Main ... thing_else), reading "Non-antags acting like an antag can be treated as an antag."

For the purposes of clarity in my thinking, I will make my case with both in equal light.

Application:
There is generally no way to go about this sort of thing, but how does one go about eating an elephant? One bite at a time. Having an understanding of the rules is almost as important as the facts to be applied, but the standard I hold most players to in matters of questionable intent is the standard of probable cause; 'evidence, facts and circumstances that would lead a cautious and prudence spessman to believe an antagonistic act has been, is being or is about to be committed'.

Applying this standard to the actions of the cargo staff (regardless of the fact they were not, in fact, attacking the claimant first), we can examine the factual circumstances that lead them to this action: during a known cultist incursion, someone from outside their department incurred and attempted to release an unknown agent in their department. Given the circumstances of the round and tendencies of antagonist type, I do not believe it would be out of the question to assume that such conduct is certainly out of place, especially befitting that of someone who has intentions outside that of the normal conduct of the department in question. Further, the quick actions of the QM severely mitigated the actions of the deployment of the canister, which ultimately did stop them from knowing whether or not the contents were harmful. However, these actions in and of themselves remain telltale signs of antagonistic behavior.

Even without applying the rules to these facts, it is apparent that the conduct undertaken by the claimant, regardless of reason, is verily out of place for an assistant and coincided with known methods of mass harm, which would not be an unheard of tactic by the publicly known and department-acknowledged threat to the station. It is through this lens that my expectation of the Cargo staff (though my words do not usurp their own) reasonably believed the claimant to be an antagonist.

From here, the application of the rules becomes simple: If we apply Escalation Policy, not only did the claimant attack Cargo staff first, but they were met with equal force in greater magnitude that lead to their death, which is in keeping with policy as stated. If we apply Rule 4, prior analysis convinced me that Cargo was acting in a reasonable capacity that the claimant was an antagonist.

Conclusions:
Given the two rules applied to the facts of this case, I opted not to engage with the Cargo staff, specifically the QM who was the subject of the ahelp. Ignoring the fact that I have nearly 18 times the play time as the claimant, I remain adamant that my findings were sound, even in the face of their questioning.

Finally, I will coda this with a prior headmin ruling from Kor (viewtopic.php?f=33&t=14718#p369897):

"If you perform an action which has zero benefit to you other than making others upset (like killing Ian) I will ban you if you adminhelp when someone kills you."
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PostThis post was deleted by wubli on Fri Sep 13, 2019 3:38 am.
Reason: just like this

PostThis post was deleted by MortoSasye on Thu Sep 19, 2019 1:01 am.
Reason: peanut policy

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Re: Dr. Aura - Condescending Attitude and Questionable Ruling

Postby MortoSasye » Thu Sep 19, 2019 1:12 am #515458

This complaint will not be upheld by us.

Their conduct was on point and actually should be praised considering they kept their cool around a person insulting them in ahelps and demanding something was done, even when their current admin rank was questioned. Admins are not supposed to be your punching bags.

Regarding the ruling, Dr. Aura also followed the current escalation rules in a proper manner so really, there's nothing actionable here.
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