[Trexter555] Escalation Confusion

[Zybwivcz]

When and where this incident occured: Sybil
Byond account and character name OR Discord name: Zybwivcz/Rocco Kepplinger
Admin: Trexter555
Round ID: 195787
https://scrubby.melonmesa.com/round/195787
https://sb.atlantaned.space/rounds/195787

What Happened:
I was CE, shuttle was about to depart, I'm in space outside the chapel. Braydon Warren, an assistant, is there. He's got the captain's laser. Zero previous interaction with him. As soon as I see him, he throws a .357 at me. I assume, not unreasonably, that the assistant with the captain's laser and an antag-exclusive weapon(there was no gatfruit on the station) is an antag who accidentally threw when he meant to shoot. I pick up the revolver and fire it twice. Whoops, it was a reverse revolver, I get put into crit. Braydon shoots me several times with the stolen captain's laser, putting me deeper into crit. He then full strips me, including my hardsuit and internals, leaving space exposure to finish killing me.

Code: Select all

[2022-12-07 01:10:55.193] ATTACK: SinfulBliss/(Braydon Warren) has thrown the �.357 revolver  (Space (119,43,2))
[2022-12-07 01:11:02.435] ATTACK: Zybwivcz/(Rocco Kepplinger) fired at Zybwivcz/(Rocco Kepplinger) with .357 bullet from Space (NEWHP: 100)  (Space (128,43,2))
[2022-12-07 01:11:02.436] ATTACK: Zybwivcz/(Rocco Kepplinger) shot Zybwivcz/(Rocco Kepplinger) with .357 bullet (NEWHP: 100)  (Space (128,43,2))
[2022-12-07 01:11:03.184] ATTACK: Zybwivcz/(Rocco Kepplinger) fired at Zybwivcz/(Rocco Kepplinger) with .357 bullet from Space (NEWHP: 43)  (Space (132,43,2))
[2022-12-07 01:11:03.187] ATTACK: Zybwivcz/(Rocco Kepplinger) shot Zybwivcz/(Rocco Kepplinger) with .357 bullet (NEWHP: 43)  (Space (132,43,2))

[2022-12-07 01:11:10.115] ATTACK: SinfulBliss/(Braydon Warren) fired at Zybwivcz/(Rocco Kepplinger) with the hellfire laser from Space (NEWHP: -14)  (Space (135,40,2))
[2022-12-07 01:11:10.117] ATTACK: SinfulBliss/(Braydon Warren) shot Zybwivcz/(Rocco Kepplinger) with the hellfire laser (NEWHP: -14)  (Space (135,40,2))
[2022-12-07 01:11:10.589] ATTACK: SinfulBliss/(Braydon Warren) fired at Zybwivcz/(Rocco Kepplinger) with the hellfire laser from Space (NEWHP: -34)  (Space (135,40,2))
[2022-12-07 01:11:10.590] ATTACK: SinfulBliss/(Braydon Warren) shot Zybwivcz/(Rocco Kepplinger) with the hellfire laser (NEWHP: -34)  (Space (135,40,2))

[2022-12-07 01:11:12.918] ATTACK: SinfulBliss/(Braydon Warren) is stripping Zybwivcz/(Rocco Kepplinger) of the telescopic baton. (Space (135,40,2))
[2022-12-07 01:11:13.170] ATTACK: SinfulBliss/(Braydon Warren) is stripping Zybwivcz/(Rocco Kepplinger) of Rocco Kepplinger (Chief Engineer). (Space (135,40,2))
[2022-12-07 01:11:13.463] ATTACK: SinfulBliss/(Braydon Warren) is stripping Zybwivcz/(Rocco Kepplinger) of the �Chief Engineer's toolbelt. (Space (135,40,2))
[2022-12-07 01:11:13.718] ATTACK: SinfulBliss/(Braydon Warren) is stripping Zybwivcz/(Rocco Kepplinger) of the advanced MOD control unit. (Space (135,40,2))
[2022-12-07 01:11:13.981] ATTACK: SinfulBliss/(Braydon Warren) is pickpocketing Zybwivcz/(Rocco Kepplinger) of ATMOS holofan projector (left) (Space (135,40,2))
[2022-12-07 01:11:14.198] ATTACK: SinfulBliss/(Braydon Warren) is pickpocketing Zybwivcz/(Rocco Kepplinger) of the plasma internals tank (right) (Space (135,40,2))
[2022-12-07 01:11:17.455] ATTACK: SinfulBliss/(Braydon Warren) has stripped Zybwivcz/(Rocco Kepplinger) of the telescopic baton. (Space (135,40,2))
[2022-12-07 01:11:17.717] ATTACK: SinfulBliss/(Braydon Warren) has stripped Zybwivcz/(Rocco Kepplinger) of Rocco Kepplinger (Chief Engineer). (Space (135,40,2))
[2022-12-07 01:11:18.019] ATTACK: SinfulBliss/(Braydon Warren) has stripped Zybwivcz/(Rocco Kepplinger) of the �Chief Engineer's toolbelt. (Space (135,40,2))
[2022-12-07 01:11:18.520] ATTACK: SinfulBliss/(Braydon Warren) has stripped Zybwivcz/(Rocco Kepplinger) of ATMOS holofan projector. (Space (135,40,2))
[2022-12-07 01:11:18.700] ATTACK: SinfulBliss/(Braydon Warren) has stripped Zybwivcz/(Rocco Kepplinger) of the plasma internals tank. (Space (135,40,2))
[2022-12-07 01:11:37.464] ATTACK: SinfulBliss/(Braydon Warren) has stripped Zybwivcz/(Rocco Kepplinger) of the advanced MOD control unit. (Space (135,40,2))
[2022-12-07 01:11:39.142] ATTACK: SinfulBliss/(Braydon Warren) is stripping Zybwivcz/(Rocco Kepplinger) of the advanced insulated gloves. (Space (135,40,2))
[2022-12-07 01:11:39.762] ATTACK: SinfulBliss/(Braydon Warren) is stripping Zybwivcz/(Rocco Kepplinger) of the brown shoes. (Space (135,40,2))
[2022-12-07 01:11:40.217] ATTACK: SinfulBliss/(Braydon Warren) is stripping Zybwivcz/(Rocco Kepplinger) of the damaged chief engineer's jumpsuit. (Space (135,40,2))
[2022-12-07 01:11:40.543] ATTACK: SinfulBliss/(Braydon Warren) is stripping Zybwivcz/(Rocco Kepplinger) of the breath mask. (Space (135,40,2))
[2022-12-07 01:11:40.778] ATTACK: SinfulBliss/(Braydon Warren) is stripping Zybwivcz/(Rocco Kepplinger) of the security bowman headset. (Space (135,40,2))
[2022-12-07 01:11:40.907] ATTACK: SinfulBliss/(Braydon Warren) has stripped Zybwivcz/(Rocco Kepplinger) of the brown shoes. (Space (135,40,2))
[2022-12-07 01:11:41.010] ATTACK: SinfulBliss/(Braydon Warren) is stripping Zybwivcz/(Rocco Kepplinger) of the security HUDSunglasses. (Space (135,40,2))
[2022-12-07 01:11:41.369] ATTACK: SinfulBliss/(Braydon Warren) has stripped Zybwivcz/(Rocco Kepplinger) of the advanced insulated gloves. (Space (135,40,2))
[2022-12-07 01:11:44.512] ATTACK: SinfulBliss/(Braydon Warren) has stripped Zybwivcz/(Rocco Kepplinger) of the damaged chief engineer's jumpsuit. (Space (135,40,2))
[2022-12-07 01:11:44.851] ATTACK: SinfulBliss/(Braydon Warren) has stripped Zybwivcz/(Rocco Kepplinger) of the breath mask. (Space (135,40,2))
[2022-12-07 01:11:45.066] ATTACK: SinfulBliss/(Braydon Warren) has stripped Zybwivcz/(Rocco Kepplinger) of the security bowman headset. (Space (135,40,2))

[2022-12-07 01:11:58.552] ATTACK: Zybwivcz/(Rocco Kepplinger) has died (BRUTE: 154, BURN: 42, TOX: 0, OXY: 10.6667, CLONE: 0) (Space (136,40,2))

I ahelp. Trexter555 rules that it's IC, because shooting myself with the reverse revolver made me valid to be killed under escalation rules. I disagree.

For starters, using antag gear to bait someone you've had zero previous interaction with into killing themselves is probably actionable on its own.

Acting like an antag, like being an assistant with a stolen high value item, makes you valid. I think this is pretty well established. If you want another source, here's one from a previous round:
https://atlantaned.space/banbus/mytickets/195583/5

Code: Select all

Zybwivcz:
So to put it all together, someone without access taking the hand teleporter from the teleporter room is valid.

Trexter555:
correct
this doesn't apply to someone that normally has access to it, like the captain/rd/ce etc

Zybwivcz:
But anyone like assistants, engineers, sci, etc., they're fair game.

Trexter555:
yes

The reverse revolver shoots its user whenever it is used. Doesn't matter if you shoot at someone, in a random direction, or at yourself. Even if he hadn't self-antagged already, Braydon didn't have any valid reason to escalate after seeing me get shot by the reverse revolver, because seeing someone shoot themselves in the head is not sufficient to initiate a conflict.

Shooting myself twice with a .357 puts me instantly into crit. Under escalation rules, that should have ended the conflict even if there had been a valid conflict. Seven seconds later, Braydon moves over to where I'm lying in crit and shoots me several times with the stolen antique laser. Since I was busy lying there dying in crit after having shot myself twice, I can't have taken any action that justified continuing the conflict.

Brayden then fullstrips me while we're both outside the station in space, including my hardsuit and my internals. The only reason to remove someone's hardsuit and internals while they're lying in deep crit in space is to kill them, which is exactly what happens.


This isn't just differing interpretation of escalation policy, it was a multilayered misunderstanding of what it is. As trexter explains, an assistant with a high value item is valid. An assistant with a high value item and traitor gear is definitely valid. An assistant with a high value item, traitor gear, and who is using the traitor gear to bait people into being killed is definitely definitely valid. Shooting yourself with a gun doesn't make you valid. Killing someone who's in crit and out of the fight isn't valid.

[trexter555]

hey, basically the reason i ruled this ic was because i asked about it in an admin channel and they told me that it was fine, with the reasoning being you didnt have to shoot the revolver but you did, twice, when you could've just left the revolver there or walked away.

[Zybwivcz]

hey, basically the reason i ruled this ic was because i asked about it in an admin channel and they told me that it was fine, with the reasoning being you didnt have to shoot the revolver but you did, twice, when you could've just left the revolver there or walked away.

This is true. I was not forced to shoot the revolver.

But shooting the revolver(into my own face) did not make me valid.

[sinfulbliss]

Hey, I was the player in question so I felt I should weigh in on a couple things here because I don't think it's being accurately portrayed.

I didn't steal the antique, I found it in a random locker. So I wasn't valid like the assistant stealing the hand tele would be.

The reverse revolver was a christmas gift someone had gotten from the tree. They gave it to me without telling me it was reverse, and as a result I shot myself later on. I figured that's kinda the joke with the reverse revolver. Later I hear the AI and some borgs talking about how the CE was locking down borgs for no reason, a couple other players were mentioning more of the same, along with a flood that happened in evac - someone even told me specifically to kill you if I saw you although I didn't plan on doing that.

I decided to follow you outside of the evac airlock in space to see if you were planning to bomb the shuttle that was coming. Immediately I came across an expended stealth implanter. I tossed the reverse revolver toward you to see what you'd do. If you weren't evil you'd probably just bag it thinking it was a free 357. You decided to instantly turn it to me and double tap. This would have crit or killed me if it were real (which you thought it was). The intent to kill/crit me opens you up to escalation so I shot you two (2) times with the antique after, but didn't kill you because I wanted to stop to search you first to see if you had anything overtly traitorous. I found a C4 in your bag so I assumed you were a traitor after all and you died to space. Then I used a hand tele to teleport your body into the shuttle incase people wanted to revive and brig you or something.

It's also worth mentioning that Trexter didn't just instantly rule this an IC issue without investigation. We had a lot of back-and-forth and he'd initially assumed it was killbaiting until I explained the full situation. (I didn't escalate any conflict with you prior to tossing the revolver, I was just some guy in space that tossed a gun toward you).

[Zybwivcz]

I didn't steal the antique, I found it in a random locker. So I wasn't valid like the assistant stealing the hand tele would be.

An assistant running around with a high value item like the hand tele or antique laser(you had both) and one who "found it" lying around is still valid because they lack access to those items, per trexter555's comments in the ahelp linked.

The reverse revolver was a christmas gift someone had gotten from the tree. They gave it to me without telling me it was reverse, and as a result I shot myself later on. I figured that's kinda the joke with the reverse revolver.

So you knew it was a reverse revolver, which is both normally a traitor exclusive item as is the regular .357, and you knew that it couldn't have been used to actually harm you.

I decided to follow you outside of the evac airlock in space to see if you were planning to bomb the shuttle that was coming. Immediately I came across an expended stealth implanter.

I didn't see any expended implanters, which in any case are usually tossed out of the station all the time by traitors. That's what happened to this one, which I wasn't even near:

Code: Select all

[2022-12-07 00:27:33.280] SAY: 00:27:33.280] SAY: Dirt290/(Keegan Biery) "i found a stealth box, a stealth implant, and an intellicard" (Space (158,45,2))

I tossed the reverse revolver toward you to see what you'd do. If you weren't evil you'd probably just bag it thinking it was a free 357.

You threw it(instead of dropping it) at me without saying anything. When the assistant with the captain's laser runs up to you and wordlessly throws a .357 at you, the reasonable assumption is not "hey, free gun", it's "the assistant with the captain's laser and a .357 tried to shoot me but accidentally threw the gun instead".

You decided to instantly turn it to me and double tap. This would have crit or killed me if it were real (which you thought it was). The intent to kill/crit me opens you up to escalation so I shot you two (2) times with the antique after, but didn't kill you because I wanted to stop to search you first to see if you had anything overtly traitorous. I found a C4 in your bag so I assumed you were a traitor after all and you died to space. Then I used a hand tele to teleport your body into the shuttle incase people wanted to revive and brig you or something.

There is literally no way to determine where if anywhere a reverse revolver was pointed at when it fired except by looking through the logs. There is literally no way you could have known I decided to "turn it" anywhere, only that I fired it.

After shooting me with the antique laser you immediately strip my hardsuit and o2 tank:

Code: Select all

[2022-12-07 01:11:10.590] ATTACK: SinfulBliss/(Braydon Warren) shot Zybwivcz/(Rocco Kepplinger) with the hellfire laser (NEWHP: -34)  (Space (135,40,2))
[2022-12-07 01:11:13.718] ATTACK: SinfulBliss/(Braydon Warren) is stripping Zybwivcz/(Rocco Kepplinger) of the advanced MOD control unit. (Space (135,40,2))
[2022-12-07 01:11:14.198] ATTACK: SinfulBliss/(Braydon Warren) is pickpocketing Zybwivcz/(Rocco Kepplinger) of the plasma internals tank (right) (Space (135,40,2))

It was obvious that would kill me when I'm already in crit in space. If you had wanted to search me without killing me you would have dragged me back into the station first.

It's also worth mentioning that Trexter didn't just instantly rule this an IC issue without investigation. We had a lot of back-and-forth and he'd initially assumed it was killbaiting until I explained the full situation. (I didn't escalate any conflict with you prior to tossing the revolver, I was just some guy in space that tossed a gun toward you).

By your own admission it was killbaiting. You're claiming it was acceptable because you had some vague reason to think I was "evil". You were acting like an antag which means it wasn't valid escalation on your part. There was literally no way you could have known if I was aiming at you when I pulled the trigger, and you knew that I wouldn't have been able to harm you with that gun anyway. And then you took action(shooting me several times with the captain's laser while I was already in crit and then stripping my hardsuit in space) that you knew would kill me without seeing any "evidence" that I was an antag.

[sinfulbliss]

I didn't steal the antique, I found it in a random locker. So I wasn't valid like the assistant stealing the hand tele would be.

An assistant running around with a high value item like the hand tele or antique laser(you had both) and one who "found it" lying around is still valid because they lack access to those items, per trexter555's comments in the ahelp linked.

Incorrect! Trexter said stealing a high value item like the hand tele, from the tele room, makes them valid, not merely having the item.

"So to put it all together, someone without access taking the hand teleporter from the teleporter room is valid."

This is grand theft. According to the spacelaw page, that can receive capital punishment. Finding a gun in a locker and keeping it isn't worthy of capital punishment, much less a nonseccie gunning someone down over it.

I didn't see any expended implanters, which in any case are usually tossed out of the station all the time by traitors. That's what happened to this one, which I wasn't even near:

Code: Select all

[2022-12-07 00:27:33.280] SAY: 00:27:33.280] SAY: Dirt290/(Keegan Biery) "i found a stealth box, a stealth implant, and an intellicard" (Space (158,45,2))

So you think I'm just making stuff up? If I saw it somewhere random in space it wouldn't have mattered obviously, it's the fact it was right where you had walked off after leaving the evac airlock. Picture:

Spoiler:

Obviously this alone isn't enough to assume you're valid or anything, but it definitely added to my suspicion of you. (Note: this picture was taken mere seconds after you had walked off my screen towards the left).

I tossed the reverse revolver toward you to see what you'd do. If you weren't evil you'd probably just bag it thinking it was a free 357.

You threw it(instead of dropping it) at me without saying anything. When the assistant with the captain's laser runs up to you and wordlessly throws a .357 at you, the reasonable assumption is not "hey, free gun", it's "the assistant with the captain's laser and a .357 tried to shoot me but accidentally threw the gun instead".

That's... Really really hard to do. You can't "accidentally" throw something, you have to click an entire different button to even get in throw mode. Maybe if they were sleeping carp? But then they wouldn't be using a gun. Just a strange assumption to make.

There is literally no way to determine where if anywhere a reverse revolver was pointed at when it fired except by looking through the logs. There is literally no way you could have known I decided to "turn it" anywhere, only that I fired it.

This is an insanely terrible faith argument bordering on lying. Are you really trying to claim you were shooting it into space and not at me? It was patently obvious you were shooting at me and you've already admitted you were trying to kill me as shown by your also false "antique = valid" argument.

If you had wanted to search me without killing me you would have dragged me back into the station first.

The shuttle was leaving and I didn't want to do it in the shuttle where 10 people would be there to vulture the body. It didn't matter if you died at that point anyway though since you tried to kill me with the (reverse) revolver - if it had been a real one I'd be sitting in space dead, should I have just said to myself "oh this guy tried to kill me but failed, no harm no foul!"

By your own admission it was killbaiting. You're claiming it was acceptable because you had some vague reason to think I was "evil". You were acting like an antag which means it wasn't valid escalation on your part. There was literally no way you could have known if I was aiming at you when I pulled the trigger, and you knew that I wouldn't have been able to harm you with that gun anyway. And then you took action(shooting me several times with the captain's laser while I was already in crit and then stripping my hardsuit in space) that you knew would kill me without seeing any "evidence" that I was an antag.

It wasn't even close to killbaiting. Killbaiting is when you shove/attack/bother someone a lot until they're basically forced to retaliate, at which point you take that opportunity to murder them. I did absolutely nothing to you except toss a funny gun in your direction. To which you responded by trying to double tap me with it. The argument I couldn't have known what direction you were aiming because it's not logged is complete nonsense, unless you want to tell me you were shooting into the vastness of space for funzies with what you thought was a real 357.

If a clown throws a grenade the chemist told them was hellfoam at someone, but it ended up being nothing, would that person be allowed to retaliate if they knew the clown thought it was hellfoam? The answer is yes. It shows the intent to kill which is plenty enough to murder in retaliation, and yes to strip your suit in space too.

[Zybwivcz]

I didn't steal the antique, I found it in a random locker. So I wasn't valid like the assistant stealing the hand tele would be.

It applies to having high value items you aren't authorized to have. "The captain gave this to me personally" is authorization. "I just found this somewhere and decided to keep it knowing I wasn't supposed to have it" isn't.

It was patently obvious you were shooting at me and you've already admitted you were trying to kill me as shown by your also false "antique = valid" argument.

Of course I was trying to shoot at you because you were an assistant lurking in space outside the shuttle with the captain's laser(and the hand tele) and a .357 revolver.

But there is literally no way you could have known I was shooting at you. If I had been shooting out into space to see if it was really a working revolver with live ammo and a working firing pin the effect would have been exactly the same in every way. If I had shot at something to my right out of your sight it would have been exactly the same in every way.

The shuttle was leaving and I didn't want to do it in the shuttle where 10 people would be there to vulture the body.

"I wanted to steal your stuff instead of letting other people do it" isn't a good excuse for killing me. You shot me with the captain's laser before stripping me and killing me in space, looting me, and leaving my naked corpse on a table somewhere in the shuttle without making any effort to revive it.

It wasn't even close to killbaiting. Killbaiting is when you shove/attack/bother someone a lot until they're basically forced to retaliate, at which point you take that opportunity to murder them. I did absolutely nothing to you except toss a funny gun in your direction.

Killbaiting is when you bait someone into attacking you, so you have an excuse to escalate and kill them.

You, an assistant lurking outside the shuttle with the captain's laser(and the hand tele) and a traitor-only weapon tossing me the weapon to see if I'd kill myself using it is killbaiting.

[spookuni]

We have no intention of upholding this complaint - getting dunked because you tried to shoot someone with a revolver is within the bounds of a rule 4 IC issue if decided so by an observing admin, and we do not believe this requires remedy.

Spook: Do not uphold
Rave: Do not uphold
San: Do not uphold