[LT3 ] James566 - Ticked resolved incorrectly

[James566]

Manuel
James566
Admin:LT3
Round ID:217820
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(i would post the recording here but i enabled shadowplay clips recording and not the actual recording ): )

So, i feel as if my ticked was resolved as an IC issue incorrectly.

What had happened was, i was a blood brother mime to the clown, Throughout the round i had done some acts of tomfoolery including
#1: Stealing the hand teli
#2: Slipping people with soap
#3: Trying to escape security about 3-4 times
#4: Stealing the detectives scanner and disposing it, security searched me then det shot me a few times (you may want to check logs on this as the detective shot me several times)

Stealing the hand teli and escaping security led to me getting brigged for 5m by the hos
I then left security after being let out by the hos, slipped a few more security officers "
Then, i was brought into brig and permabrigged for stealing the detectives scanner, (this is what led to the ticket) they had zero evidence on what i had done besides the detective saying i had done it
This is when i made the ticket due to me feelings as if i was permabrigged for something without evedence, i cant scroll up in chat to see the full admin ticket so please check logs for it,
later in the round while i was in perma, a heretic killed me and sacced me, i lived and got returned to the toxins lab, i asked ai to let me out (ai contacted security) i walked out of toxins and was greeted by the detective
who promptly shot me with hellfire guns as i was trying to type *surrender, i was unarmed det then took me back to security, captain never authorized an execution, the hos might have said to kill me but the hos has no authority to do so
without captains permission, which they didnt have (Captain said What the fuck i never authorized that)

I mentioned this in ahelp with the message (PM to-Admins: And the hos cant order an execution at ALL unless the captain aproves of it, concidering that the captains imidate reaction to me getting executied was "what the fuck i didnt order that" its safe to say their order was invalid, also i was in TOXINS LAB, how in the fuck would i get to toxins lab from perma without any broken windows leading outside?)

(Admin PM from-LT3: The rule is "You should make an effort, if the situation permits, to contact a superior as to their thoughts when a situation arises in which a prisoner may be executed or permanently imprisoned." and in this case, yes the HoS is a superior who can authorize it. There's nothing about a trial required)

Hos isnt a superior to themselves.

I then asked to speak to a headmin
They declined and marked my ticket as an IC issue

Im not sure what else to put here besides the full ahlep but im unsure of how to get that so uh just check logs on it i guess.

[Cheshify]

Hi there James, what exactly is the breach of conduct here, do you believe that they did not investigate issues? Please elaborate, since this does read a little bit like a ban request.

[James566]

I believe that their marking of the ticket was incorrect due to the hos breaking rule 6 and the detective breaking it aswell,
6. Deal with the bad guys in proportion to their crime(s).
as i had not committed any crime that would lead to an immediate field execution whilst trying to surrender, and due to the fact that the head of security cant even authorize an execution without captains permission i feel as if marking the ticket as an IC issue wasnt the correct option and i believe further action should have been taken

[lessthanthree]

Hey James,

Your ticket began with the permabrigging, your entire ticket is here:

Security is gonna permabrig me for a crime that they have no evedence of.
[Mime] ➡ Admins
2023-10-30T20:14:32
What happened?
lt3 ➡ [Mime]
2023-10-30T20:15:01
they are trying to permabrig me for stealing the detective scanner or whatever but they dont have any evedence of me doing that besides the detective saying i did it. also the detective keeps arresting people like a security officer when he shouldnt.
[Mime] ➡ lt3
2023-10-30T20:15:52
I'll look into it
lt3 ➡ [Mime]
2023-10-30T20:16:54
Yeah, im getting permabrigged for seemingly no reason right now besides "captains orders" they wont even tell me why.
[Mime] ➡ Admins
2023-10-30T20:17:11
Did you break in and steal the hand teleporter, or anything else?
lt3 ➡ [Mime]
2023-10-30T20:20:21
Yeah i stole that but i allready got brigged for that.
[Mime] ➡ lt3
2023-10-30T20:20:37
Hos just said they can permabrig by just word of mouth, saying that just because he's security his word is truth.
[Mime] ➡ lt3
2023-10-30T20:25:27
So you broke out of the brig the first time?
lt3 ➡ [Mime]
2023-10-30T20:27:51
no they let me out, i never broke out of anything.
[Mime] ➡ lt3
2023-10-30T20:28:08
they literally said "mime can go now by the way" then hos dragged me outside and uncuffed me
[Mime] ➡ lt3
2023-10-30T20:28:24
I talked to the HoS yeah, still working on this
lt3 ➡ [Mime]
2023-10-30T20:35:36
okay.
[Mime] ➡ lt3
2023-10-30T20:35:43
Det just murdered me.
[Mime] ➡ lt3
2023-10-30T20:38:30
Yeah detective has been being a security officer this entire round, also he just murdered me with no autherisation....
[Mime] ➡ lt3
2023-10-30T20:40:19
You broke out?
lt3 ➡ [Mime]
2023-10-30T20:42:03
No, i got heritic sacced and ended up in fucking toxins lab, det just shot me unarmed and hos "autherised" an exicution on me when they have no authority to do so.
[Mime] ➡ lt3
2023-10-30T20:42:45
The HoS can authorize such, actually.
lt3 ➡ [Mime]
2023-10-30T20:45:09
Captain didnt autherise it.
[Mime] ➡ lt3
2023-10-30T20:47:00
The rules say a superior, and so the HoS is within their rights to do that. It's unfortunate for you that it was a heretic, but they have no way of knowing that. They just see a mime out of perma.
lt3 ➡ [Mime]
2023-10-30T20:48:25
Also hos cant order an execution without a trial
[Mime] ➡ lt3
2023-10-30T20:48:39
And the hos cant order an execution at ALL unless the captain aproves of it, concidering that the captains imidate reaction to me getting executied was "what the fuck i didnt order that" its safe to say their order was invalid, also i was in TOXINS LAB, how in the fuck would i get to toxins lab from perma without any broken windows leading outside?
[Mime] ➡ lt3
2023-10-30T20:49:52
The rule is "You should make an effort, if the situation permits, to contact a superior as to their thoughts when a situation arises in which a prisoner may be executed or permanently imprisoned." and in this case, yes the HoS is a superior who can authorize it. There's nothing about a trial required.
lt3 ➡ [Mime]
2023-10-30T20:52:33
Hos has to have captains permission to order an execution, it says it the job description
[Mime] ➡ lt3
2023-10-30T20:53:09
Only pages on the wiki marked as moderated (with the green bar at the top) can be referenced for rules.
lt3 ➡ [Mime]
2023-10-30T20:54:42
'In cases where the Death Penalty is desired but the Captain or Acting-Captain is unable or unwilling to authorize the execution a trial is required to authorise the death penalty."
[Mime] ➡ lt3
2023-10-30T20:57:34
Space Law is merely an IC roleplay suggestion, as it says in the giant box at the top. The rules as enforced are the moderated pages with the green bar, and I quoted you the rule there.
lt3 ➡ [Mime]
2023-10-30T20:58:52
Great, also what was even the fucking point of my exicution??? like REALLY i was in there for a crime that they couldnt even proove.
[Mime] ➡ lt3
2023-10-30T20:59:36
That's really an IC issue at that point, find a lawyer.
lt3 ➡ [Mime]
2023-10-30T21:00:04
I want to speak with a headmin please.
[Mime] ➡ lt3
2023-10-30T21:02:44
Marked as IC issue by LT3
lt3 ➡ Admins

On receiving your ticket, I opened conversation with the captain regarding it, then the HoS to get their side of the interaction. (Included here is later me also contacting them to correct you were indeed let out of the brig.)

Hey there, what happened to the leadup to sending the mime to perma?
lt3 ➡ [Captain]
2023-10-30T20:18:19
Grand theft with stealing the hand teleporter, B&E to a restricted area, major trespass and they kept getting the clown to break them out
[Captain] ➡ lt3
2023-10-30T20:19:06
Gotcha thanks. Were they already in perma once for stealing it?
lt3 ➡ [Captain]
2023-10-30T20:25:11
no, they were in a cell until clown broke them out again
[Captain] ➡ lt3
2023-10-30T20:26:19
also, b4 u close this ticket ive got to go for 10mins or so, is that alright?
[Captain] ➡ lt3
2023-10-30T20:26:42
Yeah sure
lt3 ➡ [Captain]
2023-10-30T20:26:50
Client disconnected
➡ [Captain]
2023-10-30T20:27:25
Client reconnected
➡ [Captain]
2023-10-30T20:37:38
So the HoS let the mime out of the brig after serving the sentence, it wasn't a break out.
lt3 ➡ [Captain]
2023-10-30T20:44:44
I was told in security comms that the clown had broken the mime out (i think) but even so wouldn't grand theft be a permabrig crime on its own?
[Captain] ➡ lt3
2023-10-30T20:45:36
the guideline says should be met with longer brig, or perma. given they were already in brig for it once might be a little much to do that over a stolen scanner. anyways that's it.
lt3 ➡ [Captain]
2023-10-30T20:47:29
Resolved by LT3
lt3 ➡ Admins

Hey there, what happened with the mime in brig earlier after stealing the hand tele?
lt3 ➡ [HoS]
2023-10-30T20:31:13
after stealing the hand tele they were given a very lite sentence of 5 minutes and then let out before that was even done.(they resisted arrest and stole an officers gun) afterwords once they were released the detective said they immiedatly slipped them and stole their forensics scanner which they then disposalds. After hearing that the Captain gave the order to perma them
[HoS] ➡ lt3
2023-10-30T20:32:47
Got it, thanks!
lt3 ➡ [HoS]
2023-10-30T20:33:15
Resolved by LT3
lt3 ➡ Admins

Around this time you were attacked by the heretic and left in toxins, found by security and shot. Keep in mind the information players have in this situation. Security did not know of the attack, and you have been brigged once, then sent to perma. With the information on hand it's reasonable for security to believe that you broke out of perma, and act on that. You were in toxins, could have been building a bomb or something else, and a decision was made to shoot.

Moments after you were shot I asked a nearby security officer about it:

Hey there, what just happened with the mime?
lt3 ➡ [Sec]
2023-10-30T20:39:07
Det just gunned him down. Was unaware we where killing.
[Sec] ➡ lt3
2023-10-30T20:39:26
Aint sure why, other then had escaped perma. Seemed very easy to take alive.
[Sec] ➡ lt3
2023-10-30T20:39:51
Det just opened up on him. I would talk to him.
[Sec] ➡ lt3
2023-10-30T20:40:17
Resolved by LT3
lt3 ➡ Admins

Then went to the detective about it, then the HoS who confirmed that he authorized the detective to execute.

Hey there, what just happened with the mime?
lt3 ➡ [Det]
2023-10-30T20:40:41
broke out of perma. Got executed on sight. Simple as
[Det] ➡ lt3
2023-10-30T20:41:01

Hey, did you tell the detective to execute the mime?
lt3 ➡ [HoS]
2023-10-30T20:39:58
i told him he was authorized to do so. i believe escaping perma big makes you execution worthy
[HoS] ➡ lt3
2023-10-30T20:40:30

While it is on the harsh side for how you were acting, which I let the captain know, it is within the rules for security to perform the execution. Taking further action about this specific incident regarding getting you out of perma wasn't required, as security let you go free after the incident.

We got into if it was justified, but understand during the round I can't share information with security such as "the mime didn't break out, he was attacked by an antag" and as I said, it was unfortunate that it happened, but security is only acting on what they believe the situation to be. In this case a mime who's already had run ins with sec and perma'd is now in toxins. You cannot ban players based on them acting on information that they fully believe, even if it's wrong.

With the execution, Space Law versus the server rules, the moderated rules page is what we go by and that Space Law is for roleplay purposes only. So even if it says you should RP a trial, it is not required for the execution, and a superior can provide approval. In this case, the HoS.

This is where the IC resolution for the ticket comes in. You getting brigged by security and the evidence is shoddy, and then being in the wrong place at the wrong time re: the heretic is indeed an IC issue given security had reasonable belief you were breaking out. Given that this interaction with security had already come to an end and you were free on the station, there wasn't anything more to persue with the incident and contacting a lawyer IC about the ordeal would be an option. Had you continued to be say, locked up in perma then indeed perhaps it would have become a rule 6 issue about dealing with you in proportion.

What is the issue of conduct in how I handled it?

[Timberpoes]

Just a quick clarification on rule interpretation based on this:

... due to the fact that the head of security cant even authorize an execution without captains permission ...

Roleplay Rule 3 should be read within the context of its precedents as a whole:

Rule 3 Precedents
1. The internal chain of command for security is Head of Security > Warden > Officers & Detective.
2. Security are expected by default to follow the orders of their superiors, especially when determining the punishment of those you apprehend. When determining severe punishments such as permanent incarceration or execution, make an effort to contact a superior if the situation permits it.
3. You are allowed to disobey a superior's order with appropriate in-character roleplay reasoning. Complete disregard for the chain of command as a member of security is not tolerated.

Under the Security Chain of Command, any Head of Security is fully empowered to authorise executions without needing the Captain's input.

The Head of Security and Captain can also disagree on matters of Security and each can act independently to try and rally the Security team to support their point of view, although such conflict is exceptionally rare as it often results in mutinies.

Just wanted to clarify that point on the off-chance that it assists with the basis for the complaint.

[James566]

I feel as if your handling of the situation was up to par with this longer explanation, however i believe that action should have been taken against the detective due to the ignoring of the blatant violation of escalation policy.

The detective was acting like a security officer the entire round and had shot me for no reason before, i feel as if some kind of action should have been taken against the detective, he should be the last person to actively seek out execution orders, i myself have been reprimanded by staff for playing detective like a security officer.

Other than that, i can understand how it was marked as an IC issue now, perhaps a policy change should be suggested in regards to the HOS ordering and execution without explicit orders from the captain.

[Cheshify]

Alright, is this resolved James?

[James566]

Yeah, sorry for the late reply, there was a bear outside and i wanted to watch it.