[okand37] Aqualie123 - Making up facts to ban player

[Aqualie123]

Key: Aqualie123
Character: Justice Huey
Admin: okand37
Time incident occured: ~1:18AM EST
Detailed summary: Received a request from this admin inquiring about the previous round in-regards to some security officer who attempted to detain me while I was on my way to lavaland to gather some ore. He asked me what happened and I told him that the security officer had followed me onto the mining shuttle and attempted to detain me. I had already launched the shuttle so he knocked down after it launched so I detained him instead and stuck him in one of the mining dorm room and stripped him.

He then replied shortly after saying I removed the player from the game, they had no way of getting out, no access to any commucation and I shocked the doors then immediately banned me without letting me finish explaining or even bothering to examine the logs. So for the record here, all of these statements are incorrect and are madeup or he simply just took the word of the player ahelping and decided to push this through ASAP.

1. I gave him time to call for help on the radio and confirmed that help was coming (HoS was enroute as well as CE since he saw what happened on the mining shuttle as he was in space for whatever reason.
2. I did not shock any doors so I don't know where the hell he got this shit from
3. I left his radio and some of his gear in the room with him so after he uncuffed himself he could use it again if necesssary

I get it you don't like me but don't go around making shit up and have the decency of examining the logs and verifying what actually happened or take the time to listen to both sides of the story. As conduct for admin states have some professionalism dude or move over and let someone do the job.

[Shaps-cloud]

Any post that comes before okand giving his response will likely meet a similar fate to the half dozen already dead posts

[Okand37]

I don't have any like nor dislike for you, merely the wellbeing of the server in mind.
I asked you if you left him in the room naked and you never denied it.
I asked you if you shocked the door and you never denied it.

I did give you time to explain as we went back and forth discussing the situation for a period of time, but you only brought up points that you informed the HoS and CE, which is fine-but lets return to the point. Correct me if I am wrong, and we'll piece it together.

The officer was ordered to bring you into questioning and followed you into cargo, they followed you onto the shuttle and were knocked down. You decided that the best decision here was to cuff them and shove them in a mining dormitory room. I was informed by the player you left them naked and the door was electrocuted-so I had asked you these two things, and you never denied them or gave any explanation for them. You did inform me you alerted the CE and HoS, but you must also note that if they were not to retrieve said person it is still your fault for leaving them in the room. Mind you, you haven't been the best in escalation so, as per the rule, bordering one constantly ends up in a punishment.

When you're questioned, you're expected to answer any and all questions so as to help the administration team properly conduct an investigation. Because the logs were not readily available from the previous round, I wanted to ask you about the situation so I'd have more of something to run on-but because you never denied the things brought up, it seemed rather easily solvable from there.

Returning back to the main point, regardless of whether you asked someone to get them out or not; why did you decide that locking someone in a room was the best course of action when they tried to arrest you for what could've been a valid reason?

[onleavedontatme]

why did you decide that locking someone in a room was the best course of action when they tried to arrest you for what could've been a valid reason?

I don't think there should be an obligation on players parts to let security arrest them, especially if they are not aware of why security is doing it. Games are played for fun, getting interrupted and kidnapped for seemingly no reason is not fun, he resisted that outcome.

That said I have no idea what this conversation actually looked like in this particular situation or if he actually left the guy a way out.

[Okand37]

why did you decide that locking someone in a room was the best course of action when they tried to arrest you for what could've been a valid reason?

I don't think there should be an obligation on players parts to let security arrest them, especially if they are not aware of why security is doing it. Games are played for fun, getting interrupted and kidnapped for seemingly no reason is not fun, he resisted that outcome.

That said I have no idea what this conversation actually looked like in this particular situation or if he actually left the guy a way out.

There's no obligation to allow players to let security arrest them, but mind you being 'interrupted and kidnapped for seemingly no reason' is essentially what happened to the officer, except with no way out of their own. The difference however between a cell and a locked mining room-not to mention the remoteness of the latter, make it rather different.

[Lumbermancer]

It's a self fulfilling prophecy of sorts.

Security will try to arrest (or at least cuff) person without talking with them first in fear of being taken advantage of and attacked by a baddie, and arrestee will attack the security in fear of being kidnapped and arrested for no reason.

[CPTANT]

Cutting all wires will almost certainly display the door shocking animation, disabling power afterwards will power down the shock

So I can't really find it odd that people think the door was shocked.

[D&B]

You'd think a long time admin would know that cutting all the wires depowers the airlock.

[Screemonster]

You'd think a long time admin would know that cutting all the wires depowers the airlock.

if they didn't have time to view variables, or the round was over, all they would have had to go on was the sec officer saying he saw the door shock animation go off while the wires were being cut, and without gloves of their own the officer could only assume it was still shocked for the rest of their stay.

[Aqualie123]

I don't have any like nor dislike for you, merely the wellbeing of the server in mind.
I asked you if you left him in the room naked and you never denied it.
I asked you if you shocked the door and you never denied it.

Wow thanks for making this alot easier for me, first off you did not ask me if I had left him in the room naked. You told me that I DID leave him in the room naked then promptly banned me before I could even type off a single world to respond with.

Admin PM from-Okand37: Which if you stripped them stark naked they wouldn't have any possible way of telling them. So I believe we're concluded here.

Secondly, you never asked or even mentioned anything about a door being shocked in our few messages so I have no idea where you are whipping this out from as it is only mentioned in the made up ban reason.

You have been banned by okand37.
Reason: Stripped an officer and buckled them into a mining dorm and shocked the door when they tried to arrest them.
This is a temporary ban, it will be removed in 1440 minutes.
To try to resolve this matter head to https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewforum.php?f=7
Connection died.

Thirdly, looking at the available game logs which show very limited admin information it says you accessed the player panel at

[05:15:04]GAME: <a href='?priv_msg=okand37'>Okand37</a>/(Verena Knox) checked the player panel while in game.

then banned me exactly 27 seconds later at 05:14:27, so you already had your finger basically on the trigger after you posted your little smirky response which proves anything I responded with wouldn't even have mattered regardless as you only wanted to ban me. So I find the whole "I don't have any like nor dislike for you, merely the wellbeing of the server in mind." far from the truth like everything else you have said.

The officer was ordered to bring you into questioning and followed you into cargo, they followed you onto the shuttle and were knocked down. You decided that the best decision here was to cuff them and shove them in a mining dormitory room. I was informed by the player you left them naked and the door was electrocuted-so I had asked you these two things, and you never denied them or gave any explanation for them. You did inform me you alerted the CE and HoS, but you must also note that if they were not to retrieve said person it is still your fault for leaving them in the room.

Again more incorrect facts he followed me onto the shuttle stunned me then was knocked down from the acceleration this was repeated about 2-3 times as we went from station -> lavaland -> station -> lavaland in which I finally stunned him when we reached lavaland the 2nd time. And yes I decided it was the best decision to leave him on mining rather than return him to SS13, I mean seriously who detains a security officer then goes and turns them self in??? Hello?? Is your brain working?

Moving on since I already said you didn't ask me about the doors and I already mentioned help was enroute and that I left him with some of his gear.

Mind you, you haven't been the best in escalation so, as per the rule, bordering one constantly ends up in a punishment.

Really? care to actually back this up with some facts or examples?? (logs, screenshots, notes, or data)

[Wyzack]

pro tip

being a massive cunt gives people the impression you deserved it

[NikNakFlak]

http://pastebin.com/ucFCgVg0 AdminPM conversation
http://pastebin.com/4JW7DWck Say/attack logs for the incident



Some things I'd like to personally point out

[05:02:39]ADMIN: PM: Adminbane/(BLACK CLOWN)->Okand37/(Verena Knox): OOC says he's a shit in general, he was completely silent during it all so I'm inclined to agree
You were silent during it, in fact you didn't say basically anything all round.


[05:06:38]ADMIN: PM: Okand37/(Verena Knox)->Aqualie123/(Justice Huey): Did you consider that he may have been trying to arrest you for a valid reason?
[05:06:55]ADMIN: PM: Aqualie123/(Justice Huey)->Okand37/(Verena Knox): considering he didn't say anything no.


[04:27:04]SAY: Justa Blakman/Adminbane : Engineer
[04:27:12]SAY: Justa Blakman/Adminbane : Mind coming with me for a second?
[04:27:24]SAY: Justa Blakman/Adminbane : Just need a chat
[04:27:51]ATTACK: Justice Huey(aqualie123) disarmed Justa Blakman(adminbane) (NEWHP: 94.4)(60,162,1)
[04:27:56]ATTACK: Justa Blakman(adminbane) shot Justice Huey(aqualie123) with the electrode (NEWHP: 98)(59,163,1)
[04:28:03]SAY: Justa Blakman/Adminbane : Backup to asteroid
[04:28:09]ATTACK: Justa Blakman(adminbane) stunned Justice Huey(aqualie123) (NEWHP: 98)(12,194,2)
[04:28:10]ATTACK: Justa Blakman(adminbane) stunned Justice Huey(aqualie123) (NEWHP: 98)(12,194,2)
[04:28:18]SAY: Justa Blakman/Adminbane : Backup to asteroid
????
Is that not him saying something?



[05:15:27]ADMIN: PM: Aqualie123/(Justice Huey)->Okand37/(Verena Knox): his location was already told to the HoS and CE
I'm assuming he had his radio since he called out, but you never said anything about his location and without pulling these logs and sorting which took far far far too long for something this dumb, there's no quick way to determine that.


[04:29:59]ATTACK: Justice Huey(aqualie123) electrified Room 1 (37,24,5)
It is possible you cut the shock wire and THEN the power wires, but the sparks showed when you cut this so there's a good reason to assume that the door was shocked, because after the round has happened, there is zero way to tell if the door was or was not shocked because cutting power wires is not logged.

[NikNakFlak]

Double post from your appeal to.

Some random sec officer stalked me into cargo and then onto mining shuttle and began stunning me without saying a word as I was launching the shuttle.

See above

[oranges]

He then replied shortly after saying I removed the player from the game, they had no way of getting out, no access to any commucation and I shocked the doors then immediately banned me without letting me finish explaining...

Wow thanks for making this alot easier for me, first off you did not ask me if I had left him in the room naked. You told me that I DID leave him in the room naked then promptly banned me before I could even type off a single world to respond with...

I get it you don't like me but don't go around making shit up...

[05:14:59]ADMIN: PM: Okand37/(Verena Knox)->Aqualie123/(Justice Huey): Which if you stripped them stark naked they wouldn't have any possible way of telling them. So I believe we're concluded here.
[05:15:16]ADMIN: PM: Aqualie123/(Justice Huey)->Okand37/(Verena Knox): ??
[05:15:27]ADMIN: PM: Aqualie123/(Justice Huey)->Okand37/(Verena Knox): his location was already told to the HoS and CE
[05:15:31]ADMIN: Okand37/(Verena Knox) has banned aqualie123.

What did they mean by this?

[Aqualie123]

http://pastebin.com/ucFCgVg0 AdminPM conversation
http://pastebin.com/4JW7DWck Say/attack logs for the incident

Thanks for including the relevant logs

Some things I'd like to personally point out

[05:02:39]ADMIN: PM: Adminbane/(BLACK CLOWN)->Okand37/(Verena Knox): OOC says he's a shit in general, he was completely silent during it all so I'm inclined to agree
You were silent during it, in fact you didn't say basically anything all round.


[05:06:38]ADMIN: PM: Okand37/(Verena Knox)->Aqualie123/(Justice Huey): Did you consider that he may have been trying to arrest you for a valid reason?
[05:06:55]ADMIN: PM: Aqualie123/(Justice Huey)->Okand37/(Verena Knox): considering he didn't say anything no.


[04:27:04]SAY: Justa Blakman/Adminbane : Engineer
[04:27:12]SAY: Justa Blakman/Adminbane : Mind coming with me for a second?
[04:27:24]SAY: Justa Blakman/Adminbane : Just need a chat
[04:27:51]ATTACK: Justice Huey(aqualie123) disarmed Justa Blakman(adminbane) (NEWHP: 94.4)(60,162,1)
[04:27:56]ATTACK: Justa Blakman(adminbane) shot Justice Huey(aqualie123) with the electrode (NEWHP: 98)(59,163,1)
[04:28:03]SAY: Justa Blakman/Adminbane : Backup to asteroid
[04:28:09]ATTACK: Justa Blakman(adminbane) stunned Justice Huey(aqualie123) (NEWHP: 98)(12,194,2)
[04:28:10]ATTACK: Justa Blakman(adminbane) stunned Justice Huey(aqualie123) (NEWHP: 98)(12,194,2)
[04:28:18]SAY: Justa Blakman/Adminbane : Backup to asteroid
????
Is that not him saying something?

I'm a shaft miner not an engineer,

[05:15:27]ADMIN: PM: Aqualie123/(Justice Huey)->Okand37/(Verena Knox): his location was already told to the HoS and CE
I'm assuming he had his radio since he called out, but you never said anything about his location and without pulling these logs and sorting which took far far far too long for something this dumb, there's no quick way to determine that.

It's all there in the logs you posted mate:

Code: Select all

[04:28:53]SAY: Unknown/Adminbane : Help me out here
[04:28:57]SAY: Unknown/Adminbane : YES!
[04:29:01]SAY: Unknown/Adminbane : HURRY DAMMIT!
[04:29:26]SAY: Justa Blakman/Adminbane : THAT WAS ME

This is when CE acknowledged he saw him on the mining shuttle enroute to lavaland.

Code: Select all

[04:30:25]SAY: Justa Blakman/Adminbane : Kill on sight I'd say
[04:30:40]SAY: Justa Blakman/Adminbane : Has me locked in Room 1 of the lava outpost
[04:30:46]SAY: Justa Blakman/Adminbane : Armed and dangerous
[04:31:05]SAY: Justa Blakman/Adminbane : Door is bolted and likely shocked

Around the time HoS arrived at lavaland enroute to rescue sec officer, so in total he was trapped for about ~3 minutes. Also to note that he still had his radio on the whole time. So this pretty much already confirms what I've already been saying I didn't leave him without communication gear, doors were not shocked, and help was enroute. What else is there to say??

[Lumbermancer]

I'm a shaft miner not an engineer?

This changes absolutely nothing.

[Okand37]

With all of the information presented, it still isn't changing my mind.

In the conversation, I asked you points about locking them in the room and removing them from the round, instead of elaborating on what you did, you simply replied with a comment of
[05:13:59]ADMIN: PM: Okand37/(Verena Knox)->Aqualie123/(Justice Huey): Locking someone in a room without any way of getting them out is about equal to permanently removing them from the round.
[05:14:11]ADMIN: PM: Okand37/(Verena Knox)->Aqualie123/(Justice Huey): Rather, any way of them getting out.
"[05:14:36]ADMIN: PM: Aqualie123/(Justice Huey)->Okand37/(Verena Knox): If people don't know there location and weren't coming to assist him then yes that would be correct"

Looking over the conversation again, I did give you a chance to respond, but you only ever replied as is presented above; this has also happened every other time I had tried to talk to you recently when you'd been warned about over-escalation. With this in mind, your conduct between you and the individual and your general unresponsiveness/inability to co-operate, not to mention your recent reputation with over-escalation, yes I'd say you warranted it quite fine. The reason electrocution was mentioned in the ban reason is because it was one of the pieces of information given towards the situation.

Having the player panel was used to access your information such as notes, did you consider that?

They went on the shuttle and were knocked down, it isn't a lie, it is a summary.

I was under the impression they were stripped to the fullest extent, and again you were not being very helpful in your responses nor proving to be everytime I've seen an admin try to interact with you, which makes it difficult to discern what you're saying. Lets consider here
[05:06:38]ADMIN: PM: Okand37/(Verena Knox)->Aqualie123/(Justice Huey): Did you consider that he may have been trying to arrest you for a valid reason?
[05:06:55]ADMIN: PM: Aqualie123/(Justice Huey)->Okand37/(Verena Knox): considering he didn't say anything no.
Comparing that to the logs, its more so that you did not say anything.

If you want mention of your escalation, lets just use the most latest example of you removing someones legs because you mistook them for someone who attacked another player in your department due to a minor conflict earlier? But lets stay on topic.

Yes, there were admittedly some issues in communication in discerning the situation, but had you considered that your lack of communication may have been the cause of this?

[Screemonster]

[04:27:04]SAY: Justa Blakman/Adminbane : Engineer
[04:27:12]SAY: Justa Blakman/Adminbane : Mind coming with me for a second?
[04:27:24]SAY: Justa Blakman/Adminbane : Just need a chat
[04:27:51]ATTACK: Justice Huey(aqualie123) disarmed Justa Blakman(adminbane) (NEWHP: 94.4)(60,162,1)

This doesn't even look like an arrest.
it looks like "hey, can I have a word?" followed by getting wordlessly disarmed.

No shit he started arresting you after you disarmed him for having the audacity to use words on you.

[Wyzack]

I look forward to the inevitable shitstorm when this guy eventually crosses the line too far and gets permabanned. The ensuing salt storm will be enough to salinate the great lakes

[Aqualie123]

With all of the information presented, it still isn't changing my mind.

In the conversation, I asked you points about locking them in the room and removing them from the round, instead of elaborating on what you did, you simply replied with a comment of
[05:13:59]ADMIN: PM: Okand37/(Verena Knox)->Aqualie123/(Justice Huey): Locking someone in a room without any way of getting them out is about equal to permanently removing them from the round.
[05:14:11]ADMIN: PM: Okand37/(Verena Knox)->Aqualie123/(Justice Huey): Rather, any way of them getting out.
"[05:14:36]ADMIN: PM: Aqualie123/(Justice Huey)->Okand37/(Verena Knox): If people don't know there location and weren't coming to assist him then yes that would be correct"

Considering the only question you bothered asking me after verifying who this ahelp was about was:
[05:06:38]ADMIN: PM: Okand37/(Verena Knox)->Aqualie123/(Justice Huey): Did you consider that he may have been trying to arrest you for a valid reason?

Looking over the conversation again, I did give you a chance to respond, but you only ever replied as is presented above; this has also happened every other time I had tried to talk to you recently when you'd been warned about over-escalation. With this in mind, your conduct between you and the individual and your general unresponsiveness/inability to co-operate, not to mention your recent reputation with over-escalation, yes I'd say you warranted it quite fine. The reason electrocution was mentioned in the ban reason is because it was one of the pieces of information given towards the situation.

After I responded you simply went off stating the events that occurred as described by the security officer completely ignoring anything I said. As you are doing once again your view of this matter is completely biased. I've never been warned for over-escalation so I don't know what you're doing about ONCE AGAIN. My conduct with this individual and my general unresponsiveness/inability to co-operate?? What does this even mean you literally asked me one question pertaining to the actually events that happened in which I responded, so I don't know how you read that as unresponsiveness/inability to co-operate.

"not to mention your recent reputation with over-escalation," whew here we go again making up more stuff last time I checked only reputation I had was murderboning as a traitor using sleeping carp, virology viruses and genetic powers.

Having the player panel was used to access your information such as notes, did you consider that?

Considering the only note only account is the salty remark made by "Owengo" when I was murderboning as traitor and I don't see this mentioned anywhere in any of your response there is nothing to consider.

They went on the shuttle and were knocked down, it isn't a lie, it is a summary.

No it's actually omitting and distorting facts as to make your story more believable as you have a bad habit of doing which include referencing events that cannot be backed up by the logs, notes, data ingame.

I was under the impression they were stripped to the fullest extent, and again you were not being very helpful in your responses nor proving to be everytime I've seen an admin try to interact with you, which makes it difficult to discern what you're saying. Lets consider here
[05:06:38]ADMIN: PM: Okand37/(Verena Knox)->Aqualie123/(Justice Huey): Did you consider that he may have been trying to arrest you for a valid reason?
[05:06:55]ADMIN: PM: Aqualie123/(Justice Huey)->Okand37/(Verena Knox): considering he didn't say anything no.
Comparing that to the logs, its more so that you did not say anything.

Ask a bad question get a bad response, ask a good question get a good response. I mean honestly asking a player if a security officer wants to arrest you for a valid reason? Last time I checked this was a low RP server dude I could give a shit less if a security officer has a valid reason for wanting to detain me I have a right to resist arrest it's right there in the space law and as far as I'm concerned this is an IC issue. About a week and a half ago I was HoP and I was detained by security during a cultist round and they loyalty implanted me and fed over 60U of holy water and left me cuffed in the brig instead of releasing me. I ahelp'd it and I all I got was a "sorry IC issue speak with your supervisor" Well that's basically removing me from the round isn't ? Funny how that guy wasn't banned so yea keep on grudging me mate.

If you want mention of your escalation, lets just use the most latest example of you removing someones legs because you mistook them for someone who attacked another player in your department due to a minor conflict earlier? But lets stay on topic.

Please post the date and time and logs of this because I think my alzheimer's just kicked in.



Just to keep track of all the lies you've made up to try and support this:
1. You never asked me if I left him in the room naked.
2. You never asked me if you shocked the door.
3. You said I have bordered and been warned on the rule of escalation many times but failed to provide any evidence to back this up (not in my notes)
4. You never asked me points about locking them in a room and removing them from the round
5. You said I was unresponsive/unable to cooperate (already answered this above)
6. You mention I dismember'd some person but again fail to provide any evidence to back this up

Getting back to the original point the logs indicate help was already enroute and he wasn't permanently removed from the round thus moving the issue back to a IC issue but you never bothered examining the logs or doing any admin work. Your line of questioning was terrible at best and shows you wanted to get this with over ASAP. Right now I'm just repeating what I've already said, the facts are all there you're just adding to the growing list of things you keep making up. So can some heada dmin get on this already.

[Slignerd]

[04:27:04]SAY: Justa Blakman/Adminbane : Engineer
[04:27:12]SAY: Justa Blakman/Adminbane : Mind coming with me for a second?
[04:27:24]SAY: Justa Blakman/Adminbane : Just need a chat
[04:27:51]ATTACK: Justice Huey(aqualie123) disarmed Justa Blakman(adminbane) (NEWHP: 94.4)(60,162,1)

This doesn't even look like an arrest.
it looks like "hey, can I have a word?" followed by getting wordlessly disarmed.

No shit he started arresting you after you disarmed him for having the audacity to use words on you.

^ What do you have to say about this, though?

[Isane]

I'm a shaft miner not an engineer?

This changes absolutely nothing.

If he was wearing a miner hard suit he might have been mistaken for an engineer since those aren't seen too much anymore. I did run into Justice later in the round trying to break into engineering using dual wielded KAs, and he was wearing some winter jacket and a hardhat/firefighter helmet of some sorts, so that could also possibly explain it.

[Aqualie123]

[04:27:04]SAY: Justa Blakman/Adminbane : Engineer
[04:27:12]SAY: Justa Blakman/Adminbane : Mind coming with me for a second?
[04:27:24]SAY: Justa Blakman/Adminbane : Just need a chat
[04:27:51]ATTACK: Justice Huey(aqualie123) disarmed Justa Blakman(adminbane) (NEWHP: 94.4)(60,162,1)

This doesn't even look like an arrest.
it looks like "hey, can I have a word?" followed by getting wordlessly disarmed.

No shit he started arresting you after you disarmed him for having the audacity to use words on you.

^ What do you have to say about this, though?

The logs doesn't show him pulling out his taser and trying to stun me as he missed quite a few times.

[NikNakFlak]

And they never will show that because logs aren't that reliable.

[onleavedontatme]

Logs really need to show when people fire a weapon, not just hit with it.

[onleavedontatme]

Okand isnt getting fired over this though sorry.

[Screemonster]

Logs really need to show when people fire a weapon, not just hit with it.

Bay and Polaris do this (including logging whether it was fired manually or reflexively with their aim-mode) and I can confirm it really really helps with these "who started it" arguments.

[oranges]

usually you lock and move a thread when it's finished

[onleavedontatme]

Wanted to give other headmins a chance to weigh in, but I guess they have no desire to.