Killing staff of change/wand of polymorph creatures

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Re: Killing staff of change/wand of polymorph creatures

Postby bandit » Sat Jan 03, 2015 4:41 am #55232

The way I always understood it (and this goes for regular sentient monkeys too, I think) is that you are allowed to kill them with a good reason / if they are being shit, but otherwise it's a dick move.
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Re: Killing staff of change/wand of polymorph creatures

Postby Saegrimr » Sat Jan 03, 2015 5:01 am #55239

Delicious wrote:Players can just turn people into these creatures and kill them.


This should be treated as if it were any other round and you were monkeying people with syringes.
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Re: Killing staff of change/wand of polymorph creatures

Postby Aurx » Sat Jan 03, 2015 7:29 am #55269

Saegrimr wrote:
Delicious wrote:Players can just turn people into these creatures and kill them.


This should be treated as if it were any other round and you were monkeying people with syringes.

It is.
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Re: Killing staff of change/wand of polymorph creatures

Postby Alex Crimson » Sat Jan 03, 2015 7:55 am #55270

This happens every time a Wizard summons magic. There is always a massive amount of polymorph spam. Hell, more than once ive done it to people who insisted on polymorphing others.

My point is, that its happened so much now that people either think its ok, or do not consider the consequences. If you intend to make it punishable, or enforce the current rules more seriously, them make sure people know. Otherwise there will be a lot of angry players.

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Re: Killing staff of change/wand of polymorph creatures

Postby Pybro » Sat Jan 03, 2015 5:06 pm #55340

Wouldn't killing shitlers who got polymorphed and grief as a cow/xeno/syndiborg be the the exact same as people who use black slime on themselves as an excuse for LE GRIFF XD?

That is, dunk and forget about them?

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Re: Killing staff of change/wand of polymorph creatures

Postby Lo6a4evskiy » Sat Jan 03, 2015 5:11 pm #55342

Pybro wrote:people who use black slime on themselves as an excuse for LE GRIFF XD?

But that's totally fine. You can go murder as a slime, at least as far as I know.

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Re: Killing staff of change/wand of polymorph creatures

Postby cedarbridge » Sat Jan 03, 2015 5:14 pm #55343

Lo6a4evskiy wrote:
Pybro wrote:people who use black slime on themselves as an excuse for LE GRIFF XD?

But that's totally fine. You can go murder as a slime, at least as far as I know.

No. black slime cores have never granted antag status.

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Re: Killing staff of change/wand of polymorph creatures

Postby Ikarrus » Sat Jan 03, 2015 8:13 pm #55391

Yet there's a loophole where current server policy allows players to kill monkeys and other player-controlled non-humanoids without provocation

Not true. You can't go around killing things just because they're player-controlled.

I'm talking about normally non-hostile mobs, like pets and monkeys. Normally hostile entities like blobs and aliens are always fair game, since we cannot expect you to have to verify if they're "friendly" or not.
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Re: Killing staff of change/wand of polymorph creatures

Postby Pybro » Sat Jan 03, 2015 10:31 pm #55430

Do staff of changes aliums count as friendly?

Assuming there isn't a queen pooping aliums or they aren't going around murdering people, then obviously all bets are off.

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Re: Killing staff of change/wand of polymorph creatures

Postby Ikarrus » Sat Jan 03, 2015 11:00 pm #55442

Nobody is obligated to assume staff of change aliens are friendly.
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Re: Killing staff of change/wand of polymorph creatures

Postby cedarbridge » Sun Jan 04, 2015 12:38 am #55465

Staff of change murdering changed players (as monkeys or other generally harmless things) should be and should remain punishable. However, in the (all too common) case of geneticists monkeying themselves and then getting dunked and cremated in ling rounds, no. You knew the job was dangerous when you took it.

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Re: Killing staff of change/wand of polymorph creatures

Postby Aurx » Sun Jan 04, 2015 4:14 am #55511

cedarbridge wrote:Staff of change murdering changed players (as monkeys or other generally harmless things) should be and should remain punishable. However, in the (all too common) case of geneticists monkeying themselves and then getting dunked and cremated in ling rounds, no. You knew the job was dangerous when you took it.

And how exactly is one supposed to distinguish between the a self monkeyed/slimed monkey/slime and a staff'd monkey/slime in the case of a monkey or slime running around, if one did not see the transformation?
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Re: Killing staff of change/wand of polymorph creatures

Postby cedarbridge » Sun Jan 04, 2015 4:22 am #55512

Aurx wrote:
cedarbridge wrote:Staff of change murdering changed players (as monkeys or other generally harmless things) should be and should remain punishable. However, in the (all too common) case of geneticists monkeying themselves and then getting dunked and cremated in ling rounds, no. You knew the job was dangerous when you took it.

And how exactly is one supposed to distinguish between the a self monkeyed/slimed monkey/slime and a staff'd monkey/slime in the case of a monkey or slime running around, if one did not see the transformation?

Signs are usually not lacking in the case of wizardry hijinks. Even in the worst case, unless somebody holed up in maint with their headset off the whole time, they would have some idea what's taking place on the station. Obviously, all admin intervention takes into account incomplete information, but willful ignorance shouldn't be considered an excuse to get ones valids.

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Re: Killing staff of change/wand of polymorph creatures

Postby Aleph » Mon Jan 05, 2015 2:39 am #55735

Delicious wrote:
Ikarrus wrote:
Yet there's a loophole where current server policy allows players to kill monkeys and other player-controlled non-humanoids without provocation

Not true. You can't go around killing things just because they're player-controlled.

I'm talking about normally non-hostile mobs, like pets and monkeys. Normally hostile entities like blobs and aliens are always fair game, since we cannot expect you to have to verify if they're "friendly" or not.

Since when? Monkeys and player-controlled pets have always been valid. I've always thought that was terrible, but I had gotten used to it and other players seem to have as well. You'll often find people RDMing harmless creatures during polymorph rounds just because they can.


It's that they expect easy consequence free valids with polymorph rounds. There's been this one time we LMGed some random who was doing shit to our medical department and he lost his shit in OOC, like legit mad just because he killed another doctor and medbay had the balls to dunk him, also noting that this was back when antags were spawned, he himself wasn't even an antag either

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Re: Killing staff of change/wand of polymorph creatures

Postby cedarbridge » Mon Jan 05, 2015 3:42 am #55756

Delicious wrote:
cedarbridge wrote:Staff of change murdering changed players (as monkeys or other generally harmless things) should be and should remain punishable. However, in the (all too common) case of geneticists monkeying themselves and then getting dunked and cremated in ling rounds, no. You knew the job was dangerous when you took it.

You shouldn't be encouraging people to murder other players without proof that they're antagonists. This just leads to players killing these people without thought because they can.

And I did this where exactly? There's nothing in that quote that does so. In fact, I'd take that quote as a warning against risky behavior, not an encouragement to do such things.

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Re: Killing staff of change/wand of polymorph creatures

Postby dezzmont » Mon Jan 05, 2015 3:45 am #55757

The non-human instavalid policy has always applied to monkies. It was written specifically for them because players were using vent crawling to grif and steal things and we didn't want to make it against the rules to steal as an assistant as long as you didn't hurt people.

Of course there really should be a context clause. Validing a monkey running about in the halls even if it hasn't acted agressive is very different than RDMing a guy after you see him get turned into a monkey. One is an annoying creature that is at best an escaped feral test subject and at worst is a changeling or asshole who monkeyed themselves to cause trouble, the other is a victim of evil magic and your co-worker.

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Re: Killing staff of change/wand of polymorph creatures

Postby Ikarrus » Mon Jan 05, 2015 3:52 am #55761

dezzmont wrote:The non-human instavalid policy has always applied to monkies.

It hasn't for a very long time now.

They need to be causing some kind of trouble before you can wreck their shit. Being a nuisance (e.g. stealing, biting) or special circumstance (e.g. monkey round). But you can't go around killing monkeys just because they are player-controlled and are not causing trouble for anyone.
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Re: Killing staff of change/wand of polymorph creatures

Postby Saegrimr » Mon Jan 05, 2015 5:03 am #55781

Delicious wrote:You said it was fine to kill player-controlled monkeys during ling rounds, regardless of whether they've been proven to be lings or not. That's going to encourage people to kill monkeys during ling rounds simply because they can.

If you're monkeying yourself when people are screaming about lings over the radio, you earned it.
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Re: Killing staff of change/wand of polymorph creatures

Postby Steelpoint » Mon Jan 05, 2015 5:07 am #55784

Saegrimr wrote:If you're monkeying yourself when people are screaming about lings over the radio, you earned it.


I think that comment might have been suppred from a round where a traitor geneticist was turning people into monkeys while at the same time security was dealing with a changeling incursion and several attempted ling monkey break ins of the armoury, and systemically killing any monkey they found (I was the head of security that round). This lead to a lot of players being killed by security as they were monkeys and were misidentified as being a changeling monkey.
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Re: Killing staff of change/wand of polymorph creatures

Postby paprika » Mon Jan 05, 2015 9:50 am #55829

We should edit the wiki to clarify that monkeys from monkey cubes/roundstart/etc are lobotomized test monkeys and sentient monkeys are to be feared and reported to security or something.

Kind of like how we can grow seedless fruit now irl, advances in genetics have allowed the creation of nearly identical primates that don't fling shit and tear people's hair out.

This is one of those things that has always been 'vaguely the case' but gets brought up enough to warrant an actual stance on it from administration. Maybe pun-pun is just a monkey that the bartender took from the geneticist/viro/xenobio to raise as his pet or something, who cares.
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Re: Killing staff of change/wand of polymorph creatures

Postby dezzmont » Mon Jan 05, 2015 11:39 am #55849

I like it. More fluff that also helps support server policy and creates an in game excuse for rules is always nice, makes things more consistent, and gives people something to talk about.

Maybe even add it into the description if you examine the monkey. "This is an ugly tiny primate that is known for being violent, disruptive, and flinging its waste. Unless, of course, it is a docile lobotomized test monkey" for example. In game reminders are a neat mechanic.

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Re: Killing staff of change/wand of polymorph creatures

Postby cedarbridge » Mon Jan 05, 2015 9:41 pm #55974

Steelpoint wrote:
Saegrimr wrote:If you're monkeying yourself when people are screaming about lings over the radio, you earned it.


I think that comment might have been suppred from a round where a traitor geneticist was turning people into monkeys while at the same time security was dealing with a changeling incursion and several attempted ling monkey break ins of the armoury, and systemically killing any monkey they found (I was the head of security that round). This lead to a lot of players being killed by security as they were monkeys and were misidentified as being a changeling monkey.

I'd consider that a well-played IC ruse on the geneticist's part. There's not a lot to fault sec for if they didn't know about it and all the kills can be acounted to the antag putting those people (validly) in harms-way. I'm with Sae though. If you're intentionally monkeying yourself when there are known lings on the station you're asking to get killed and whining about it after the fact is pretty damn close to banbaiting if it isn't legitimately banbaiting.

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Re: Killing staff of change/wand of polymorph creatures

Postby Void Slayer » Thu Jan 08, 2015 11:09 am #56102

If you can freely murder SoC pets and monkeys, then really using a staff of change on someone on purpose is no different then murder.

And either way it is being a dick.

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Re: Killing staff of change/wand of polymorph creatures

Postby Saegrimr » Thu Jan 08, 2015 8:03 pm #56899

Delicious wrote:
cedarbridge wrote:
Steelpoint wrote:
Saegrimr wrote:If you're monkeying yourself when people are screaming about lings over the radio, you earned it.


I think that comment might have been suppred from a round where a traitor geneticist was turning people into monkeys while at the same time security was dealing with a changeling incursion and several attempted ling monkey break ins of the armoury, and systemically killing any monkey they found (I was the head of security that round). This lead to a lot of players being killed by security as they were monkeys and were misidentified as being a changeling monkey.

I'd consider that a well-played IC ruse on the geneticist's part. There's not a lot to fault sec for if they didn't know about it and all the kills can be acounted to the antag putting those people (validly) in harms-way. I'm with Sae though. If you're intentionally monkeying yourself when there are known lings on the station you're asking to get killed and whining about it after the fact is pretty damn close to banbaiting if it isn't legitimately banbaiting.

You should require proof that somebody is an antag before they can be killed, to prevent people randomly killing other players and using the excuse "oh, he could've been an antag". Being a monkey obviously isn't proof.


You know how people that run around with eswords they stole off traitors, or red hardsuits from nuke ops tend to get dunked for having them?
Yeah, there kind of is a rule about "If you can't risk identifying them at the time, lethal force is acceptable." otherwise that'd just be plain banbaiting.
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Re: Killing staff of change/wand of polymorph creatures

Postby cedarbridge » Fri Jan 09, 2015 2:09 am #57008

Saegrimr wrote:
Delicious wrote:
cedarbridge wrote:
Steelpoint wrote:
Saegrimr wrote:If you're monkeying yourself when people are screaming about lings over the radio, you earned it.


I think that comment might have been suppred from a round where a traitor geneticist was turning people into monkeys while at the same time security was dealing with a changeling incursion and several attempted ling monkey break ins of the armoury, and systemically killing any monkey they found (I was the head of security that round). This lead to a lot of players being killed by security as they were monkeys and were misidentified as being a changeling monkey.

I'd consider that a well-played IC ruse on the geneticist's part. There's not a lot to fault sec for if they didn't know about it and all the kills can be acounted to the antag putting those people (validly) in harms-way. I'm with Sae though. If you're intentionally monkeying yourself when there are known lings on the station you're asking to get killed and whining about it after the fact is pretty damn close to banbaiting if it isn't legitimately banbaiting.

You should require proof that somebody is an antag before they can be killed, to prevent people randomly killing other players and using the excuse "oh, he could've been an antag". Being a monkey obviously isn't proof.


You know how people that run around with eswords they stole off traitors, or red hardsuits from nuke ops tend to get dunked for having them?
Yeah, there kind of is a rule about "If you can't risk identifying them at the time, lethal force is acceptable." otherwise that'd just be plain banbaiting.

Essentially this. I can already see the ahelps. "So, uh, I monkeyed myself and sec dunked me for being a ling. I wasn't a ling. Ban they." "So you monkeyed knowing sec was hunting lings and got dunked?" "Yeah, but they didn't find a translator/pAI and ASK if I was a ling!"

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Re: Killing staff of change/wand of polymorph creatures

Postby Saegrimr » Fri Jan 09, 2015 3:07 am #57033

Delicious wrote:This is a monkey. This isn't somebody with a weapon. Even so, killing somebody for having an energy sword or a red hardsuit when they haven't attacked someone is terrible.

Changelings are some serious shit, and monkey form is when they are arguably most vulnerable.
The esword thing, maybe, but if you're running down the hall in full nuke op gear absolutely nobody is going to think twice about dropping you and running away before you can (presumably) detonate yourself which means they wont be able to identify you until you are confirmed dead enough to not activate it.
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Re: Killing staff of change/wand of polymorph creatures

Postby WeeYakk » Fri Jan 09, 2015 6:32 am #57097

Somewhat related to the thread: are people who get polymorphed into certain creatures allowed to act how that creature would act? For example polymorphed xenos kidnapping people and facehugging them or slimes eating people to reproduce. Are the more dangerous flavors of staff of change more valid or do they have to prove their shittiness before you're allowed to dunk them?
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Re: Killing staff of change/wand of polymorph creatures

Postby Saegrimr » Fri Jan 09, 2015 6:34 am #57099

WeeYakk wrote:Somewhat related to the thread: are people who get polymorphed into certain creatures allowed to act how that creature would act? For example polymorphed xenos kidnapping people and facehugging them or slimes eating people to reproduce. Are the more dangerous flavors of staff of change more valid or do they have to prove their shittiness before you're allowed to dunk them?


If you get turned into a xenomorph, by all means go do xeno things. Though its really questionable to ask the dude next to you "Hey man hit me with that untill I turn into a xenomorph" and then go off on a rampage. Just like sliming yourself from black slimes in xenobio doesn't magically give you antag status.

This being the incredibly dynamic game as it is, specific rulings on this would be a mile long. A lot of it really comes down to context.
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Re: Killing staff of change/wand of polymorph creatures

Postby Ikarrus » Fri Jan 09, 2015 6:02 pm #57228

Saegrimr wrote:
WeeYakk wrote:Somewhat related to the thread: are people who get polymorphed into certain creatures allowed to act how that creature would act? For example polymorphed xenos kidnapping people and facehugging them or slimes eating people to reproduce. Are the more dangerous flavors of staff of change more valid or do they have to prove their shittiness before you're allowed to dunk them?


If you get turned into a xenomorph, by all means go do xeno things. Though its really questionable to ask the dude next to you "Hey man hit me with that untill I turn into a xenomorph" and then go off on a rampage. Just like sliming yourself from black slimes in xenobio doesn't magically give you antag status.

This being the incredibly dynamic game as it is, specific rulings on this would be a mile long. A lot of it really comes down to context.

More or less what I would say.
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