Bottom post of the previous page:
I see what you're trying to doyou ejected the first bullet by hand, didn't you?
Bottom post of the previous page:
I see what you're trying to doEven though I think my points still hsve some merit (despite being aggro as fucking shit for no good reason) I still think it's important to address concerns like what luke says in his other post without going nuclear on himKor wrote:It was a good postQbopper wrote:I'm now regretting my wall of text post
Limey wrote:its too late.
tusterman11 wrote:Can you stop lying? I just asked you and you are was a piece of shiit on me!!!
EngamerAzari's real number one fangirl <3Kor wrote:I wish Wyzack was still an admin.
You can shitpost all you want, it doesn't invalidate my point. I'm just saying that this isn't going to work out the way Kor envisions it and that he's wasting his time. It's halfway to being a new game, and if he wants to pursue it further, he's best off making his own fork.Wyzack wrote:You heard the man Kor, brave warrior LUCK "cocks" COX will not leet you code this, so stand aside
Now this is a quality shitpostcaptain sawrge wrote:captain sawrge wrote:actually not autismLuke Cox wrote:If Kor really wants to pursue this seriously, he's going to have to create his own fork
He said he'd make it a map and eventually remove either it or the space mapsdanno wrote:You mean the thing he was already basically fucking planning on doing
Are you this stupid or is this just masterful bait
Which gives us two possible scenarios: Either half the playerbase leaves to play real SS13, or a colossal amount of development time is wasted.PKPenguin321 wrote:He said he'd make it a map and eventually remove either it or the space mapsdanno wrote:You mean the thing he was already basically fucking planning on doing
Are you this stupid or is this just masterful bait
You better lose yourself in the music, the moment, you own it, you better never let it goShadowDimentio wrote:I'll gladly spitball ideas all day long, but you still haven't answered my question Kor: Are you willing to bet everything on this?
But given all the "focusing all resources in this new direction or it won't work" talk it was pretty clear it wasn't just a mapKor wrote:It was a good postQbopper wrote:I'm now regretting my wall of text post
And that's the conundrum regarding the mobs. You can either make them human controlled and have it be a grief fest, or you make them AI controlled and they become nothing more than a monotonous annoyance.Yakumo_Chen wrote:imo if the lava mobs are human controlled, it's just going to make it a competition of who wants to grief the station harder (assistants and lavamobs) versus who wants to keep the station working, and who is the most robust. If robust players decide they're sick of playing the good team, they can just go into lava mobs and wreck the station every time, like with ash ligger invasions.
That's because you're supposed to stay on the station where everything is happening, silly. Not to mention that space is a major strategic element in core SS13 (spacing people, exposing areas to space, etc.)XDTM wrote:Even AI mobs would be more fun to play with than just an area that kills you if you don't have the right clothes.
Back to form on 65535 grass variants eh?
With a dangerous planet you could do stuff like feeding your enemies to a monster den, and wandering too far while alone and/or unequipped would still be as dangerous as space, but people could push back some dangerous territory to make it safe for traveling, if they want to do an extra effort. Also space very frequently just loops back to the station, making it even less optimal for corpse disposal.Luke Cox wrote:That's because you're supposed to stay on the station where everything is happening, silly. Not to mention that space is a major strategic element in core SS13 (spacing people, exposing areas to space, etc.)XDTM wrote:Even AI mobs would be more fun to play with than just an area that kills you if you don't have the right clothes.
And if someone is trying to kill you, you could just run out onto the planet. Space is great because it gives the station a sense of claustrophobia. Bombings are devastating not just because they trash a department, but because they impact the habitability of large chunks of the station. Moving the station to a planet is far more than just "filling in space". It changes the fundamental dynamics of the game.XDTM wrote:With a dangerous planet you could do stuff like feeding your enemies to a monster den, and wandering too far while alone and/or unequipped would still be as dangerous as space, but people could push back some dangerous territory to make it safe for traveling, if they want to do an extra effort. Also space very frequently just loops back to the station, making it even less optimal for corpse disposal.Luke Cox wrote:That's because you're supposed to stay on the station where everything is happening, silly. Not to mention that space is a major strategic element in core SS13 (spacing people, exposing areas to space, etc.)XDTM wrote:Even AI mobs would be more fun to play with than just an area that kills you if you don't have the right clothes.
The danger would still keep people in, but with this, for example, if you get an uber-deadly grenade you don't have to sigh and trash it because you're not an antag, but you can instead run and lob it to a cluster of monsters, freeing that area and maybe getting resources or loot.
Construction in general would be greatly improved with a planet, since the lack of atmosphere makes new areas very hard to build, both because you need to pressurize it and because you need to also make a spaceproof passageway.
The reason I keep going on and on about this is because it feels like Kor doesn't understand why some of us think that this is a terrible idea. He's denying that PvE is going to be the driving force behind rounds or as PK pointed out, will railroad rounds down a single path of progression. This is a big fucking deal, and it has the potential to kill the server.Scott wrote:I think the only way to convince kor of not doing this is to write your own ""design"" doc that shines better than this one. Personally I am not at all inspired to get away from space, and this doesn't seem to be well planned, you're going to end up with the current situation but on a different theme.
Precisely, and that's a problem. Other players will not be the primary source of conflict, whether Kor realizes it or not. People don't want to deal with lavaland-style mobs every round. The current setup is claustrophobic. You're stuck on an island with a variety of people who want to kill you. Along this lines, there's the massive issue of rounds being railroaded down a fixed path (and it is a big fucking issue, hence me bringing it up every other post) of getting established, gathering resources, and powering the gateway while fighting off mobs. It will be the same thing every round, just with murderboners with different gear trying to stop you. God forbid the area containing the gateway becomes somehow uninhabitable, in which case it's gg no re for the crew. Fundamentally and irreversibly (in terms of wasted development resources and/or player attrition) changing the game based on an idea with so many fundamental flaws is unthinkable and its implementation is an existential threat to the server.Steelpoint wrote:The main difference I'm seeing with this proposed change is that the game will take place on the surface of a planet, and that there will be a constant environmental threat the crew has to deal with.
So instead of the station acting in isolation and moving at the pace of the player antagonists, instead the station, from the get go, is working with the fact that there's a overarching 'threat' to the station from the beginning that is not a player antagonist.
This would mean that player antagonists serve to 'enhance' the events and chaos of the round, instead of being the only means to drive the round forward.
Limey wrote:its too late.
That's not the issue, not completely. Having any fixed goal for the crew that they have to complete to end the round is a terrible idea. As I said before, sandbox vs. linear. People should be free to make their own objectives, with the shuttle acting as a round-ender when people decide that they can no longer have fun.Steelpoint wrote:Perhaps that issue can be resolved Luke if the path to 'victory' is not fixed every single time? With random generation in mind you could look into making there be multiple ways to get off the planet, and not all of them are available during a round.
Also some of your argument could be used against the current way the game is played, but this concept could help to shake up the meta if its done well.
The reason I say that this could kill or severely damage the server is because if it is completed, it'll probably get left up for a while with the hopes of the playerbase caving in and accepting it given how the coders have dealt with unpopular changes in the past, during which time the server will hemorrhage players. If we do decide that it's good at first, /tg/station will cease to be a mainstream SS13 server and become a niche. If the coders do accept reality and remove it, we'll have spent months working on unusable content. I'll cede that this is a bit of a slippery slope but it's something that needs to be kept in mind when considering this. People who support this see it as a leap of faith, I see it as stampeding off a cliff.Qbopper wrote:Okay even now that we're on the same page the idea that this will kill /tg/ seems ridiculously foreign to me and makes it hard to take you seriously EDIT: lukes last post
I seriously doubt that even if this project goes as horribly as you claim it will it'll result in the death of /tg/station - absolute worst case scenario it's so abysmally bad we all hate it and force a rollback
Besides, didn't away missions get nuked for being TOO popular? It feels like people would prefer to have that PvE element, at least from my experience
I hadn't considered the whole "traitors sabotaging themselves" thing, good point. Nuke Ops wouldn't make a whole lot of sense either. "This crew is stranded and has been left to die, but we should totally detonate a nuke they have for shits and giggles." Or rev, "we're on the brink of death and need every ounce of productivity we can get, let's murder command!" We would have to rework all our antags just for this to function, and at that point you might as well just make an independent fork with antags tailored to the gameplay, which as I stated earlier could actually work on the third server.Iatots wrote:@everyone arguing PVE won't smother the game
What could traitors do?
What will traitors do?
If you set up a last stand scenario from the get-go, any traitors that need to survive to the end would have to not commit any kind of grand sabotage to maximise their greentext potential. Sure, murder one guy or steal an item, but blow up science? the engine? not a Chance. Every traitor will just stealth the whole round until there is just too many goliaths and not enough bullets. "Backstab at the critical moment?" More like snooze-fest for the first 40 minutes and then everything explodes as soon as the gateway kicks to life.
>Ok, then add more glorious death objective.
Well, now you have a traitor whose objectives undermine the success of other traitors, what do you get? That's right, double agent, where the traitors are the protagonists and the crew eats shit.
I don't see traitors working like they do now.
I see traitors either, becoming a background thing while every non-magic round devolves into more soulless powergaming for guns/energy until the reset button can be pressed, or everything exploding roundstart with the crew left to pick up the pieces, i.e. a new griff lottery with double the frustration since "lol no shuttle".
Limey wrote:its too late.
Limey wrote:its too late.
The idea is that the monsters are bad for the station, not bad for the station's survival. Not resisting the monsters effectively will mean the power's off, not "everyone dies". Maybe if they're completely unresisted, but at that point you have to just congratulate a traitor on a good job sabotaging.Iatots wrote:If you set up a last stand scenario from the get-go, any traitors that need to survive to the end would have to not commit any kind of grand sabotage to maximise their greentext potential. Sure, murder one guy or steal an item, but blow up science? the engine? not a Chance. Every traitor will just stealth the whole round until there is just too many goliaths and not enough bullets. "Backstab at the critical moment?" More like snooze-fest for the first 40 minutes and then everything explodes as soon as the gateway kicks to life.
God forbid the escape shuttle becomes somehow uninhabitable, in which case gg no re for the crew.Luke Cox wrote:God forbid the area containing the gateway becomes somehow uninhabitable, in which case it's gg no re for the crew.
Lava is better at disposing of bodies than space. Exposing areas to space can be replaced by exposing areas to the hostile wildlife or hostile flora that would grow into the open area. It's not the same but it's interesting too. This is kind of a poor argument because this thread exists literally to brainstorm solutions to these kinds of issues.Luke Cox wrote:That's because you're supposed to stay on the station where everything is happening, silly. Not to mention that space is a major strategic element in core SS13 (spacing people, exposing areas to space, etc.)
I have a few ideas for alternate goals (and I listed one in the OP, killing the source of the bad guys) but I don't want to promise insane feature creep before the skeleton of this is even off the ground. In the far future it'd be very possible to do randomized planet surfaces, different kinds of threats (evil bugs instead of evil demons, uncontrolled plant growth, whatever), different ways to escape (construct a communications tower and call the escape shuttle) and so on and so forth.Jazaen wrote:I think Steelpoint is right here, in that we need more than one station goal to progress towards, as sooner or later someone will create the perfect "get off the planet" guide.
Rev is already brainwashing, it doesn't have to particularly make sense. Times of great stress are exactly the kinds that encourage mutiny and revolt though. "These dumb assholes crashed our ship and stranded us here and now we're going to be eaten, fuck that why should we follow them?"Luke Cox wrote:muh lore
I don't understand why you think traitors having to balance their wanton murder with a desire to actually escape would be a bad thing. Do you find consequence free murderboners enjoyable?Iatots wrote:@everyone arguing PVE won't smother the game
What could traitors do?
What will traitors do?
This is already our game. I could fail to make it better, but I wouldn't be introducing a new problem.where the traitors are the protagonists and the crew eats shit.
Someone else is already doing that, and it'd be a way bigger departure from SS13. The core gameplay would have to be entirely redone.CosmicScientist wrote:What happened to FTLStation13/Orion Trail13?
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