[dinklenh] Arathian - Note Appeal for borging corpse

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Arathian
 
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[dinklenh] Arathian - Note Appeal for borging corpse

Postby Arathian » Wed Sep 11, 2019 11:09 am #513898

BYOND account: Arathian

Character name: Arathian Kebabopoulos

Ban type: Note

Ban length: N/A

Note reason: "Warned - Force borged corpses because someone (Not specified) told them that it was OK, and because he didnt have to clone people."

Time ban was placed: on 10/9/2019

Server you were playing on when banned: Bagil, yes, I cheated on Terry and this was my punishment.

Round ID in which ban was placed: 118306

Your side of the story:

First of all, I would like to apologise because yesterday was a REAL bad time and I couldn't really explain myself properly. The tl;dr was that at the same time I got bwoinked, a huge thunder fell and fried a few important stuff at work (where I was at). That is why I sounded a bit short tempered and distressed. I shorted it out by now, so I hopefully will make myself a bit clearer here. I said I would make a policy discussion, but I think that will only be necessary if this appeal is denied.

So, over a couple rounds on bagil, we had "greytide riots". These were mostly handled IC and were super fun. Round right before this one, bridge and brig were completely destroyed and all heads (including me - my default role is RD) got completely killed. It was all handled IC and it was quite fun!

Anyway, this shift we also had some greytide movement. People attacking the brig, attacking bridge again etc I had already borged 2-3 greytiders that had attacked security, the hop and so on.

I walk into the medbay and see a dead wanted (I had sechud on) lizard assistant in a literal grey jumpsuit that had been worn these past 2 rounds to denote the literal "greytide". I proceeded to yoink the corpse (to note - I had nothing to do with the lizard dying. No idea how it died) and take it to robotics to borg the brain.

I got bwoinked by dinkle.....aaaaand, around that time the thunder fell and I lost all ability to properly communicate because I had to gtfo asap but also didn't wanna cope a month ban or whatever.

Dinkle asked me why I was gonna borg the lizard. I responded I wished to do so because it was a greytider that was wanted. Dinkle said I should not be stealing corpses and borging them. I responded I have been told it is not against the rules to do so provided I didn't kill them myself (which is true, as far as I know). He said why I thought so, I responded I have been told so (true....by a few people, but non "officially" which is why naming them isn't really relevant) while also asking what rule borging an already dead corpse breaks. Dinkle told me that he believes borging corpses DOES break a rule, told me very clearly that I should not be doing that. I then told him to note me and I will open a thread to discuss it further because I really had to go. So here we are.

The appeal on the note is based on the basic fact that borging someone that is both not important (assistants literally lack any responsibility) AND wanted AND a greytider is not against the rules. If, say, I abducted the hop's corpse and borged that, I could see the clear argument that this harms the station. However, abducting the occasional wanted greytider's corpse is something that should clear fall into the "morally grey IC action". If the lizard really wanted to avoid being borged, it could scream in comms while in an MMI or, simply, state so as a borg to someone. Both actions would be allowed.

I personally don't see how/why this would be something to be noted, especially with Severity: High.



PostThis post was deleted by Arianya on Thu Sep 12, 2019 7:34 pm.
Reason: Peanut posting

PostThis post was deleted by Arianya on Thu Sep 12, 2019 7:35 pm.
Reason: Response to deleted (also unrelated to the case at hand)

PostThis post was deleted by Arianya on Thu Sep 12, 2019 7:36 pm.
Reason: Peanut posting

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Arathian
 
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Re: [dinklenh] Arathian - Note Appeal for borging corpse

Postby Arathian » Wed Sep 11, 2019 2:37 pm #513920

Sorry but, lizard assistant in a grey jumpsuit while wanted and dead is NOT a confirmation that he was part of the greytide?

I mean, I wouldn't have cared much but it's not like I borg people who mind their own business usually. I do borg a lot of low value people, but that's, as far as I am concerned, a service to the round.

Also, I am entirely unsure how bringing someone back to the round as a silicon is being a dick. I guess preventing a mass of greyshirts breaking the station is being a dick now.

e: Mod edit, this was a repsonse to deleted posts but I've left it since it's by OP and gives detail that might be relevant to appeal

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confused rock
 
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Re: [dinklenh] Arathian - Note Appeal for borging corpse

Postby confused rock » Wed Sep 11, 2019 2:47 pm #513922

As the dead lizard
First, “wanted” is no reason to do that shit. You don’t know what it was for. Unless it was a capital crime, which I am pretty sure it was not, you shouldn’t do that shit. For all you know, some asshole was just messing with the records. Either way, shouldn’t factor into your decision, mr. not security.
Second, my jumpsuit color I could’ve spawned with shouldn’t matter, and I’m not just saying that because I wasn’t wearing one! I died cause a wizard fireball burned off all but my overcoat (reason I got in trouble was stealing it from a locker) to be fair that doesn’t look friendly either, but it sounds like that didn’t actually effect your decision. If the suit wasn’t burned, you couldn’t see the jumpsuit. Heck, my id might not have been on me!
So at this point it seems like you just borged a corpse lying on the floor in the hall. That’s just iffy, often justified if cloning is down. But you didn’t do that!

You dragged my body from the cloning waitlist to the slower robotics waitlist! That’s malicious!

The worst part, though? The person trying to get me cloned, and who you attacked when they tried to bring thr body back, well, first off that’s a person you’re actively fighting, but second off that’s a SECURITY OFFICER! They looked disheveled, but they did state their identity and you had not only your pda lister to back them up, but the sechuds you used to condemn my body went unused in seeing his mindshield implant!

This wasn’t you taking a body of a greytider who smashed your windows that you found dead in a hall and borging them. That would be iffy. This is you taking a look at my body stripped of all proper identifying factors on the cloning backlog, and dragging it off to be forceborged against the wishes of the actual security force!

Bringing someone back as a silicon is a dick move when people are actively trying to get me brought back as a clone.

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Re: [dinklenh] Arathian - Note Appeal for borging corpse

Postby MortoSasye » Wed Sep 11, 2019 3:07 pm #513924

Locking this appeal until the banning admin replies or I'm going to have a seizure from all this peanut posting (except for one person that quoted the rules broken and someone actually involved.
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DinkleNH
 
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Re: [dinklenh] Arathian - Note Appeal for borging corpse

Postby DinkleNH » Thu Sep 12, 2019 12:41 am #514035

Sorry but, lizard assistant in a grey jumpsuit while wanted and dead is NOT a confirmation that he was part of the greytide?

100% Yes. Greytide and assistants are different, and you had 0 context as to why they were set to arrest. Taking them out of medbay, where they were going to be cloned and forcefully turning them into a borg is a violation of rule 1. Yes, you don't have to clone bodies that you find, but purposely taking them out of medbay to borg them against their will, is a violation of rule 1.

RULE 1
We're all here to have a good time, supposedly. Going out of your way to seriously negatively impact or end the round for someone with little IC justification is against the rules. Legitimate conflicts where people get upset do happen however, as detailed in the escalation section of the rules.

Now, along with you dragging him out of cloning to borg him because he was wearing gray and set to wanted, without asking sec or anyone, this quoute is really what sells it for me

and who you attacked when they tried to bring thr body back, well, first off that’s a person you’re actively fighting, but second off that’s a SECURITY OFFICER! They looked disheveled, but they did state their identity and you had not only your pda lister to back them up, but the sechuds you used to condemn my body went unused in seeing his mindshield implant!


I was passively watching this go down and I did see a sec officer try and get the lizards body back to cloning. You had no right to stop him from cloning the body, as doing so is purposefully forceborging him, which is a major violation of rule 1.

I mean, I wouldn't have cared much but it's not like I borg people who mind their own business usually. I do borg a lot of low value people
This is so braindead incorrect that every facet of it bleeds stupid. You literally borged someone who was being soon to becloned, which is what I define minding their own buisness, and fought the security guard that tried once again to clone them. All because they were a "Low value person" at your cursory glance.

.

I responded I have been told so (true....by a few people, but non "officially" which is why naming them isn't really relevant) while also asking what rule borging an already dead corpse breaks
Every admin that I have talked to has agreed with me, that borging corpses due for cloning is a major rule 1. You hearing otherwise from non official sources isn't something that you should be listening to, and if you asked any admin about this they would have shut you down.

.

However, abducting the occasional wanted greytider's corpse is something that should clear fall into the "morally grey IC action". If the lizard really wanted to avoid being borged, it could scream in comms while in an MMI or, simply, state so as a borg to someone. Both actions would be allowed.
Asimov law 3 states "You must protect your own existence as long as such does not conflict with the First or Second Law. " Meaning they couldn't ask to be deconstructed. I also saw that you had multiple borg shells set up, and I expected you to MMI them and immediately put them in their shell. Onto the former of your speech, ABDUCTING PLAYERS CORPSES FROM MEDICAL TO BORG THEM IS NOT MORALLY GREY. IT IS A MAJOR DICK MOVE. Its the embodiment of taking someone out of the round and forcing them to be a borg when they were meant to be healed or revived by medical.

All of this, with the fact that just before you left you suicided instead of letting me put a ghost in your body means that my opinion on the matter hasn't changed. Honestly, it has made it much worse in my opinion.

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Arathian
 
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Re: [dinklenh] Arathian - Note Appeal for borging corpse

Postby Arathian » Thu Sep 12, 2019 1:38 am #514047

with the fact that just before you left you suicided instead of letting me put a ghost in your body

I am still unclear why this is a major issue for you. I had a problem at work. I informed you I had to go. If you wanted to put my body into some other ghost, there is an admin resurrect that clears suicide status and makes the body ssd and easily ghostable. It would, as far as I am aware, take you 2 clicks to fix the suicide. I didn't gib the body or anything which would have been a real issue.

I also don't see how that relates to my appeal to the corpse borging note.

Frankly, you are being completely unreasonable and overly aggressive with this.

and I did see a sec officer try and get the lizards body back to cloning


He didn't look like a sec officer and had no sec officer ID. We started trying to stun each other. Once I (eventually) cuffed him, he identified himself as a sec officer and I immediately let him go. I also stopped trying to borg the lizard when he identified himself as a sec and told me to stop, as you may recall (although I was also being bwoinked there).

Going out of your way to seriously negatively impact or end the round for someone with little IC justification is against the rules.


Here are things that are allowed and are IC:

Breaking and stealing heads' lockers.

Hacking and bolting open all the doors into sec.

Attacking, beating, cuffing and mugging naked people.

Immediately hacking into HoP at shiftstart, attacking him and trying to give yourself AA during the confusion or stealing his ID.

Breaking into the armoury and stealing all the guns.

going randomly and shoving/bating people to purposefully start a fight (if not done excessively).

Shoving randoms and stealing items from their hands. Like sec batons or the barman's gun and so on.

Stripping corpses in cloning and stealing all their stuff.

Grabbing a corpse in maint and hiding it in a locker.

Here is a thing that negatively impact the round, is a complete and obvious rule 1 violation and you should be noted with "Severity: high":

Bringing someone back into the round as a borg instead of a greyshirt lizard.

ABDUCTING PLAYERS CORPSES FROM MEDICAL TO BORG THEM IS NOT MORALLY GREY. IT IS A MAJOR DICK MOVE. Its the embodiment of taking someone out of the round and forcing them to be a borg when they were meant to be healed or revived by medical.


Shit happen all the time that is not optimum for a player. I assume the player didn't choose to die and be set on fire either. Just throwing it into a generic "rule one - don't be a dick lol" without further justification as to why this is being a dick over all the above described examples is, frankly, bad moderation.

Sometimes you die or become helpless and sometimes you don't return exactly as you were. Maybe when we have an upgraded cloner but the doctor spends 5m messing with my organs instead of cloning me, I should ahelp it too and give them a note 1 violation for not just yeeting me in the cloner. If everyone doesn't play optimally, that is a rule 1. RPG btw.

I assume you are denying this note appeal. I would ask for a headmin ruling for this because I strongly disapprove of this note and the precedent it sets.

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deedubya
 
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Re: [dinklenh] Arathian - Note Appeal for borging corpse

Postby deedubya » Thu Sep 12, 2019 5:15 am #514153

Arathian wrote:
with the fact that just before you left you suicided instead of letting me put a ghost in your body

I am still unclear why this is a major issue for you. I had a problem at work. I informed you I had to go. If you wanted to put my body into some other ghost, there is an admin resurrect that clears suicide status and makes the body ssd and easily ghostable. It would, as far as I am aware, take you 2 clicks to fix the suicide. I didn't gib the body or anything which would have been a real issue.

Apologies for the peanut, but I can confirm that this is the case. I've made the mistake of suiciding in a head role after informing the admins that I needed to leave, and I saw that body up and occupied before I had even closed the BYOND window.

PostThis post was deleted by Arianya on Thu Sep 12, 2019 7:40 pm.
Reason: Peanut posting

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Arianya
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Re: [dinklenh] Arathian - Note Appeal for borging corpse

Postby Arianya » Thu Sep 12, 2019 7:42 pm #514279

deedubya wrote:
Arathian wrote:
with the fact that just before you left you suicided instead of letting me put a ghost in your body

I am still unclear why this is a major issue for you. I had a problem at work. I informed you I had to go. If you wanted to put my body into some other ghost, there is an admin resurrect that clears suicide status and makes the body ssd and easily ghostable. It would, as far as I am aware, take you 2 clicks to fix the suicide. I didn't gib the body or anything which would have been a real issue.

Apologies for the peanut, but I can confirm that this is the case. I've made the mistake of suiciding in a head role after informing the admins that I needed to leave, and I saw that body up and occupied before I had even closed the BYOND window.


Using the rarely used peanut exception of "the admins have generally..." to point out that generally we don't like adminreviving people because a lot of players take this as a changeling tell so if you suicided somewhere vaguely public or your death was announced then it very rapidly leads to people thinking the revived person is suspect for reasons they can't really be blamed for not knowing.
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Arathian
 
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Re: [dinklenh] Arathian - Note Appeal for borging corpse

Postby Arathian » Sat Sep 14, 2019 4:43 am #514660

Right, but I didn't announce it IC and only the admins knew (because I messaged them). Furthermore, changelings go into stasis from damage, not randomly. I highly doubt someone knows the game enough to know the changeling ability but also little enough to not realize lings can't get out of suicide.

And really, this isn't a note appeal about that. That note's dumb too, but the fix is simple enough (just don't suicide) so I don't care to challenge it. I would appreciate if we stay focused on what I am actually appealing.

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Re: [dinklenh] Arathian - Note Appeal for borging corpse

Postby MortoSasye » Sun Sep 15, 2019 11:37 pm #514961

Since the banning admin was demoted I’ll be taking over this appeal and I’ll mention first that I will be denying this.

Borging random bodies you find is at most only ok when cloning is destroyed. When you force borg someone, you disable them from coming back to the round due to their law 3 and 1 (when Asimov) asking them to not destroy their shells in essence, so the brain can’t be recovered to be put back to cloning.

This has always been the case and it falls under our rule 1, especially considering you removed a body from where it was on a waiting queue to be cloned.

The note also isn’t too harsh on you or is incorrect. Other head admins are free to overrule this decision.
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