[Iansdoor] H3skan - Banned for miscommunication

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Heskan
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[Iansdoor] H3skan - Banned for miscommunication

Post by Heskan » #725985

BYOND account: H3skan

Ban/note type (Check what applies):
(X) - Server Ban
() - Note
() - Forum Ban
() - Discord Ban

Ban/note length: 3 days
Ban/note reason: As a non-antag Atmos tech, had a failure of confirmation to build a SM shard in front brig, resulting in one security officer dusting someone in. This is second time in 24 hours that your radiation projects in up in security area. You also went on half and question the HoS ofr the ahelp on the behalf on "centcom". Players can't duscuss adminhalps ICly, it's OOC information in IC.
Time ban was placed: 2020-04-09 22:08:59 (server time)
Server you were playing on when banned: Terry
Round ID in which ban was placed: 226769

Why are you making this appeal?(Check what applies):
(X) - The ban/note is factually incorrect
() - The ban/note is not against the rules
() - The ban/note needs modification
() - The ban was unjustifiably harsh
() - I was permabanned and I want another chance

Why should this appeal be accepted?:
I think this was a headache for everyone involved, so I'll just go bit by bit over the chain of events that occured.
0. Yesterday, I made a petty revenge HFR in the dets office out of spite. Rads leaked since i miscalculated the dampening of rglass, i shut it down / sealed it and brought rad meds to the affected. Nobody was seriously harmed and the det understood it as a petty fun little thing that resulted out of a minor quarrel we had. One-off dumb petty idea, went slightly wrong, i fixed it, nobody harmed. Has nothing to do with today but since it makes radiation apparently thats the same thing as a planned out supermatter engine.
1. I spawn in shiftstart and decide to turn the little chute area near sec into an sm setup because why not. Funny sm locations are too rare, I have the skills to do it and I felt like doing it for my one round today.
2. I meet the Hos in the bar, Michael Gaelard, full riot gear. This is completely irrelevant but will get made impotrant later. Fact is I know the name and look of the Hos.
3. I get the mats to the location and ask a secoff nearby if its cool if I make it. They agree, and I finish construction without opening the crate.
4. I put in an extremely robust radiation proofing setup, two layers of rplasma plus ample space and everything plus good cooling and filtration. I've got a concerning amount of hours on atmos I know how to make an sm setup safe if its in an area like that, and it was. A tunnel of plasmaglass windows leading to railings to the 3 tile sm area, 2 scrubbers one injector 2 thermos and a grounding rod all good. For added safety, should radiation leak i brought over all the rad meds from medbay and stood on standby the entire time i was alife until a revenant emp shut me down to fix issues and get more rad meds should people go green, which nobody but one secoff did.
5. Before opening the crate, the hos waddles by. Riot armor, I check the id, Michael Gaelard, head of security. I tell him of the project, he gives me a "i dont care go for it" kind of answer. I turn it on.
6. I get a pm asking me about the sm. I say its for a checklist, half jokingly since it would be funny for me to make one in every room as much as it would be unachivable, and ensure its safety and legitimacy.
7. Things go back and forth for a bit, I say I cleared it with a secoff and the hos, Ian keeps telling me the logs say i never spoke to the hos. While writing my response he asks me "Is [name i forgot that is not Michael Gaelard] the hos?" or something like that and I tell him the actual name of head of security. That explains a bit, I think to myself, and I go reassure him i did in fact talk to him. This goes back and forth a LOT and I'm a bit fed up with it and see the hos walk by again. I pull him aside real quick and ask him if i did in fact misremember speaking to him. I'm only human and I'd readily agree to a miscommunication thing if it had happened. Which it did not, as he gives me the same "yeah i said I dont give a fuck" kind of answer, twice. I only asked that centcom wanted to know if i had talked to him about it, which I thought was a nice way to mask it up but apparently is more of a no-go than i thought it would be so I apologize for that, wont do it again I just wanted to resolve whether or not I made that error as quickly as possible so everyone could move on.
8. I get gaslit again that that did not happen, so I tell him to pm Michael directly. If that ever happened I do not know, judging by the ban message probably not.
(9. Irrelevant sidenote but the sm chamber gets purposefully breached by a reporter borg later into the round. The filtration is strong enough to keep it completely stable, only downside is that the hallway became oxygenless but still pressurized. Granted atmos is rather laggy at that point, but still.)
10. I'll leave out some more back and forth, but I get banned after a long delay near roundend.

So in summary I think there definitely was a miscommunication, but only between the two of us and maybe involving a logging error of some sort. Things like that happen, but again I checked it with security and most notably the hos, who has, with my understanding, the authority to validify such projects. The fact that a random secoff decided that throwing a guy in there was a good idea is under no way I can possibly imagine my fault, round removing someone like that is just a shitty thing to do.
Again, the OOC in IC thing is something I'll keep in mind, but I doubt that that is the reason for a 3 day ban. The HFR thing is a radiation miscalculation, which didnt happen here as nobody got rad poisoning except for one guy, who was provided with ample medical care at the site. The construction project was authorized by one officer and the head of the department.
I'd like to note that most people passing by appreciated the project, besides maybe the guy that secoff dusted but thats hardly under my control, and that all safety measures a supermatter can have were met. Only thing I couldve added to prevent intentional dustings was another wall but I like to give people the opportunity to turn themselves back into space dust if they so please, as long as it doesnt open up ways for people to shove others into it, which my setup did not allow for. The guy the secoff dusted was cuffed, naked, and dragged behind them through the maze of rplasmaglass to then be thrown in over a railing.

As for modifications I'd ideally appeal for a change to a note for the OOC-IC thing.
No matter how this ends up going I'll keep admin messages to myself and annoy the respective department head enough to hand me a written and stamped confirmation of my precise plans for any riskier project I plan on doing in the future.


Et delenda botania.
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Re: [Iansdoor] H3skan - Banned for miscommunication

Post by iansdoor » #725995

Howdy there.

I will be taking my time with this appeal. This is just issues here with your projects and security as a whole.
I'll give you my raw logs I searched for the only person you asked permission for shard, The cutoff is the point of ticket where I asked if Aoife Everwood was the person that ok'ed the project. Anything before that. I will pull that up when I log on tomorrow.

Your ticket in ic to the HoS and Security officer.
► Show Spoiler
This is the exchange of words between you and HoS.
► Show Spoiler
Raw logs of HoS and yourself.txt
(92.37 KiB) Downloaded 114 times
This is the only person you asked.
► Show Spoiler
Raw logs of lone security officer and yourself.txt
(93.26 KiB) Downloaded 113 times
what picture of what you were trying to point out with point one and four.
Screenshot_243.png
Here is the Ticket between us.
► Show Spoiler
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Re: [Iansdoor] H3skan - Banned for miscommunication

Post by Heskan » #726020

What did Michael have to say when you asked him directly? He confirmed me twice that we talked before I opened the crate ([2024-04-06 21:21:10.813] GAME-SAY: Lizardboreansupersoldier/(Michel Garland) (mob_3414) "I just said sure" (Central Primary Hallway (107,145,2)) and one more time), so if there is no log entry of our interaction prior to me opening the crate then you gotta either trust our words or the logs (and if you do the latter than it still does not explain why he would then tell me that we did talk).
As for the "security projects", I dont quite follow? The HFR thing was a seperate thing, here I just picked a random location for the setup. I dont have a compulsion to put shards or HFRs near or into security, this is just a coincidence.
I also dont follow how such a project is considered such an extreme risk to begin with. The picture above is after the borg has removed two layers of rplasmaglass and one can clearly see that the shard is still not taking issue with it. The layers of radiation shielding were by all means sufficient even when things were thrown in, and as a failsafe there were ample radiation meds provided which this roundend picture also does not show, since they got dragged in and dusted after said borg took the glass away. The setup was, prior to interference, one other people and I have often put on BYOS shuttles and whatnot. In the context of all the insane projects engineering can get up to this really is as tame as it gets.

Also I'd like to ask, had I given the captain and the hos a 5 page document outlining the precise plans, have them stamp and sign it and send a copy to central command, would this have been a legitimate construction? I mean that literally, if I gotta make a clipboard containing project overview, buiding schematics and responsible engineer documents I will gladly do that (since that actually sounds pretty fun to do).
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Re: [Iansdoor] H3skan - Banned for miscommunication

Post by iansdoor » #726022

Good morning. now I have a bit more time to look at exactly what you state in your bullet points as I will snipped if it's opinion and not related to logs.

I already edited the note cause one of my responsibilities as a dyslexic admin. I am supposed to communicate notes so that other admins can understand them. TG had an TGUI error at 4:58pm 4/6/2024 Central Time zone and the edited version is 6:00 pm 4/6/2024
As a non-antag Atmos tech, had a failure of confirmation to build a SM shard in front of brig, resulting in one security officer dusting another non-antag in. This is second time in 24 hours that one of your radation projects in the security area. You also went on half and question the HoS for the ahelp on the behalf of "Centcom". Players can't discuss adminhelps ICly, it's OOC information in IC.
to
As a non-antag Atmos tech, had built a SM shard in front of brig. This is second time in 24 hours that your radiation projects are within the security area. in-game you went on the behalf of "centcom" to question the HoS approval of said project, referred to the ticket ICy
But your appeal is to first one, the latter is for admins.

So lets go into the appeal itself.
Heskan wrote: Sat Apr 06, 2024 10:58 pm As for modifications I'd ideally appeal for a change to a note for the OOC-IC thing.
No matter how this ends up going I'll keep admin messages to myself and annoy the respective department head enough to hand me a written and stamped confirmation of my precise plans for any riskier project I plan on doing in the future.
1. I spawn in shiftstart and decide to turn the little chute area near sec into an sm setup because why not. Funny sm locations are too rare, I felt like doing it for my one round today.
I understand funny location gimmick. However, I am under the impression that yesterday stunt bled into today, to which how can you make security life more difficult. When you force areas that require Mesons and anti-radiation, this is not generally ideal and that's straight grief. Also not forgetting, the fact that anyone that uses the Cargo chute ends up dusted.
2. I get the mats to the location and ask a secoff nearby if its cool if I make it. They agree, and I finish construction without opening the crate.
Actually, I want to know more about this exchange of words from your own end.
Sitting down and reading the game logs context, I don't see you had permission from the secoff either. Rather, the intern security was having a chat with Greyus Tidus about someone's sentence?
► Show Spoiler
4. I put in an robust radiation proofing setup. For added safety, should radiation leak i brought over all the rad meds from medbay and stood on standby the entire time i was alife until a revenant emp shut me down to fix issues and get more rad meds should people go green, which nobody but one secoff did.
I will say you did attempt to make a tunnel of glass for shielding radiation? and/or to keep folks from breaking the shard free?
Honestly, were the meds given to security because of your ticket in IC?
Our ticket began at 21:12:03.825 and you were roughly here 21:12:33.725 H3skan/(Arar 'Makita' Dreizehn) points at the floor (Fore Primary Hallway (108,159,2))
► Show Spoiler
Logs from Warden that shift about your SM
► Show Spoiler
5. Before opening the crate, the hos waddles by. Riot armor, I check the id, Michael Gaelard, head of security. I tell him of the project, he gives me a "i dont care go for it" kind of answer. I turn it on.
From his own response to myself, he did not clear this and you flagging him down as he is walking into brig. What is he to do with a wrenched SM setup at that point.
This is the logs of you "confirming" with him.
► Show Spoiler
6. I get a pm asking me about the sm. I say its for a checklist, half jokingly since it would be funny for me to make one in every room as much as it would be unachivable, and ensure its safety and legitimacy.
7. I say I cleared it with a secoff and the hos, Ian keeps telling me the logs say i never spoke to the hos. While writing my response he asks me "Is [name i forgot that is not Michael Gaelard] the hos?" or something like that and I tell him the actual name of head of security. I think to myself, i did in fact talk to him. see the hos walk by again. I pull him aside real quick and ask him if i did in fact misremember speaking to him. I'd readily agree to a miscommunication thing if it had happened. Which it did not, as he gives me the same "yeah i said I dont give a fuck" kind of answer, twice. I only asked that centcom wanted to know if i had talked to him about it, which I thought was a nice way to mask it up but apparently is more of a no-go than i thought it would be so I apologize for that, wont do it again I just wanted to resolve whether or not I made that error as quickly as possible so everyone could move on.
8. so I tell him to pm Michael directly.

I am sorry that is my fault, for yesterday with forcing your hand about Detective office HFR and establishing that you are allowed clear up your own mistakes IC while in a ticket. That HFR was petty grief that made a good chuck of security covered in radiation. I would rather you were allowed play on, but with the idea of you aren't messing with security area. I did not clear that up enough for you.

So no, when you do OoC in IC actions with the intention of clearing up. You influence the person to agree or disagree, mudding up the facts. I have already spoken to them and this is why I came to that realization that no one cleared it as you thought and there was miscommunication between you and secoff and then assumption by HoS to yourself since you mentioned security officer.

More game logs of myself in my search of whom you chatted to before pulling the direct logs and inferring from locations. Also your coms log when the SM was on.
► Show Spoiler
Edited the bold bit at the end.
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Re: [Iansdoor] H3skan - Banned for miscommunication

Post by Heskan » #726024

All I can say at this point is that the location was not influenced by the HFR project the day before. I dont have a general dislike of sec, if I wanted to fuck with a department for personal reasons it'd be virology. Michael I know from a couple of rounds and have no issue with, the other two secoffs are no-names to me. I generally want to add value to a round, do something people have not seen a thousand times, and such projects are one of the few things that are still interesting both for me and the crew. For making life more difficult I don't quite see how thats the case with an unused area (the chute oversight is my fault, I planned on removing the cargo side entrance but forgot about it upon getting messaged. realistically thats only used for crates 99% of the time anyway) while ample rad protection is present. After Honda reported to me that a secoff went green I went and got rad meds over, not in response to being messaged. The log you pulled with my secoff confirmation is not the time we actually talked about the setup, but either way, fact is I went to the hos, asking if "this is fine, right?" and he said "ye". Even if the setup was already on at that point, which I'm 99% sure it wasn't, this is the head of security. He could have at that point still told me to take it down or not activate it, but he agreed. These are the log entries, if I can read the time right the first one (the hos saying yes) happened before the second one (me saying the sm is on):
20:58:04.452] SAY: Lizardboreansupersoldier/(Michel Garland) "ye" (Fore Primary Hallway (108,159,2))
21:11:13.646 TELECOMMS H3skan/(Arar 'Makita' Dreizehn)[Common] (spans: ) "Sec hallway sm on" (language: Galactic Common) (108, 158, 2) Fore Primary Hallway

Anything I can do at this point is give you my word that the HFR thing the day before had nothing to do with this project, and that I acted under the impression of having HOS clearance. I still stand by my word that such a setup, given radiation meds for redundancy, neither requires passer-bys to wear mesons (it's a nitrogen supermatter shard at 100% integrity, not a singularity) nor radiation protection. The area occupied for this is one that is passed by, not usually lingered in. In the event of stray rads passing the protection, which even happens with the main sm, there were meds supplied.

I'd also like to know if what I proposed at the end of the last message is fine, or whether or not I will have to ahelp any bigger project beforehand in the future (which I wouldnt prefer since that, in contrast to a centcom message and official form signed by the department head / captain, is an ooc thing impacting ic gameplay).

Also also, why is the part of a secoff dusting a guy in it still in the ban message? That's completely irrelevant, the officer couldve walked to the main sm and done the same thing I dont see how this is my fault.
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Re: [Iansdoor] H3skan - Banned for miscommunication

Post by iansdoor » #726027

I'll let you re-organize your thoughts, before I give my reply back. I given you a good number of logs and raw logs for you to use and I can give you all of them if you need it. Don't use prior opinion without those logs please.
Do know, anything after my realization that "you were using ooc in ic" warped Arar's thinking. I am not going to touch any logs after the start of my ticket as those logs are tainted by us. My ticket has had an effect on your round from the normal Roleplay.
This stems from these two points, not having genuine answers. If you can clear those up, I'll reconsider using those logs afterwards.
Actually, I want to know more about this exchange of words from your own end.
Sitting down and reading the game logs context, I don't see you had permission from the secoff either. Rather, the intern security was having a chat with Greyus Tidus about someone's sentence?
I will say you did attempt to make a tunnel of glass for shielding radiation? and/or to keep folks from breaking the shard free?
Honestly, were the meds given to security because of your ticket in IC?
Our ticket began at 21:12:03.825 and you were roughly here 21:12:33.725 H3skan/(Arar 'Makita' Dreizehn) points at the floor (Fore Primary Hallway (108,159,2))
From his own response to myself, he did not clear this and you flagging him down as he is walking into brig. What is he to do with a wrenched SM setup at that point.
I will reply to last part.
Heskan wrote: Sun Apr 07, 2024 12:30 pm I'd also like to know if what I proposed at the end of the last message is fine, or whether or not I will have to ahelp any bigger project beforehand in the future (which I wouldnt prefer since that, in contrast to a centcom message and official form signed by the department head / captain, is an ooc thing impacting ic gameplay).
Situations with crystals and other engineering feats are a case by case. Anytime you go out of your department to do a project that can harm crew, is something you have to consider as a non-antag. Radiation may be gummed from what it used to be, but still deadly if you cannot treat symptoms properly. I do enjoy the idea of placing a stupid yellow crystal in every named room in a log of sorts. A solid gimmick.
Also also, why is the part of a secoff dusting a guy in it still in the ban message? That's completely irrelevant, the officer couldve walked to the main sm and done the same thing I dont see how this is my fault.
Simply, cause you setup the crystal with poor IC in front of brig at the holding cells. Any death by that crystal is round removal, dusted, gone. You give a smoking crystal to folks to use. As far as I know, that message should be changed, if not, I'll ask for help in that.
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Re: [Iansdoor] H3skan - Banned for miscommunication

Post by Heskan » #726032

I don't know what more I can do to sway you to believe me that our interaction has not resulted in me supplying the rad meds, but my talk with Honda over the irradiated secoff other than my word. Our logs start after I start the crystal, so the logs I cited confirming that I got the hos's okay before starting it were not "tainted" by it.
Either way, I'll conduct all future ventures using an extensive, signed array documents outlining the precise extend of what I plan to do to avoid issues like these in the future, keeping IC centcom messages and OOC admins messages seperate.
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Re: [Iansdoor] H3skan - Banned for miscommunication

Post by iansdoor » #726035

Heskan wrote: Sun Apr 07, 2024 2:14 pm I don't know what more I can do to sway you to believe me that our interaction has not resulted in me supplying the rad meds, but my talk with Honda over the irradiated secoff other than my word. Our logs start after I start the crystal, so the logs I cited confirming that I got the hos's okay before starting it were not "tainted" by it.
I am just looking for your thoughts to the logs to what you and I said. Please pull them apart, so that they are easier to follow.

I will ask if this banning note is more correct to what happened.
As a non-antag Atmos tech, had built a SM shard in front of brig. This is second time in 24 hours that your radiation projects are within the security area. in-game you went on the behalf of "centcom" to question the HoS approval of said project, referred to the ticket ICy
Otherwise, I have nothing more to add without your input.
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Re: [Iansdoor] H3skan - Banned for miscommunication

Post by Heskan » #726038

This sounds good, but does this mean the entire hos authorization (PRIOR to the sm going on and the tickets beginning) issue is cleared? Because if so, all that remains is the OOC-IC issue and the fact that an officer dusted someone in there (to which I will respond by locking off all future setups with an engineering+atmospherics access door), the location and validity of the sm setup becomes irrelevant (unless you still believe that my aim was to purposefully hinder security, which it wasn't as I've assured multiple times). With the exception of a stray rad ray hitting one secoff, the setup was, in contrast to the HFR that again is completely unrelated as for my motivations, entirely radiation proof (until the borg removed two layers of shielding but thats beside the point).

Other than that I have no further input, you just have to give your final word on whether you believe that my intentions were as I claimed them to be, providing a rare, spicy lightbulb for every department to look at and not to purposefully grief or fuck up anyones round or department, or not.
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Re: [Iansdoor] H3skan - Banned for miscommunication

Post by Heskan » #726074

On second thought, I'm a bit confused now as of what precisely I am being banned for. I'll just try to summarize.
- I've shown, using the logs, that I have asked the head of security before starting the supermatter and before the ticket start whether or not he was fine with the project. The initial ban reason, which I interpreted as miscommunication, thus, as I see it, falls away.
- The IC-OOC issue afterwards is one I will keep in mind and not repeat. I take this topic more serious than most players most of the time and this specific incident stemmed from inpatience, and as a (if I recall correctly) first time thing this would probably just be a note. All IC interactions after this are irrelevant either way as the HoS' consent has been already proven via the logs.
- The officer dusting someone in the sm is something I find hard to fully take responsibility for, but I will keep future builds walled off. If this kill is fully counted as mine, that would be a 1 day ban if I'm not mistaken.
- Through my initial communications ("Another one off the checklist!" strongly implying this isn't targeted at sec, my intend being to put one everywhere at least once) both IC and OOC, the fact that I asked for permission, my general playstyle (I'm the kind of guy to apologetically eat people as a ling and throw the bodies of murder victims back into medbay as a traitor) and attitude, I think it would be rather odd to still assume I made the ultra-safe supermatter setup only near sec to annoy and grief them and not to give something for folk to look at in an otherwise unused area. The ban note reading "This is second time in 24 hours that your radiation projects are within the security area." seems odd to me since this again was a completely detached incident from the HFR and repeating sites for construction projects, as long as they are properly authorized and secured (both of which I again have shown to be true), should not be an issue (given that you believe my intentions). Again, I don't mean to rules-lawyer in the sense of "oh theres no rule for that", I just don't follow what precisely it is that the ban, now that (hopefully) everything is cleared up, is issued for.

Right now the ban lenght reflects that I have done grief equivalent to killing three people, when the reality was one officer murdering someone with it and another getting irradiated, which I fixed with meds.
Last edited by Heskan on Thu Apr 11, 2024 12:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [Iansdoor] H3skan - Banned for miscommunication

Post by Heskan » #726144

I also don't understand the so far unmentioned 7 day jobban from engineering. I do not follow how this for a structurally safe supermatter setup set with IC confirmation as the logs show relates back to a first time OOC in IC violation? I have not done anything to show improper handeling of my job as an engineer, I've setup and maintained both supermatters well, disregarding IC-OOC things. The IC thing is an entirely different topic, but I do my job as an engineer and I do it well, so why am I getting a punishment akin to something that would result from letting the supermatter purposefully or wrecklessly explode or something? This is a communications ban, even though I've shown logs to disprove even that but thats besides the point, not one where my engineering abilities or conduct in and of its own are questioned.
I would greatly appreciate a final review of this.
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Re: [Iansdoor] H3skan - Banned for miscommunication

Post by iansdoor » #726164

Heskan wrote: Mon Apr 08, 2024 10:55 am I've shown, using the logs, that I have asked the head of security before starting the supermatter and before the ticket start whether or not he was fine with the project. The initial ban reason, which I interpreted as miscommunication, thus, as I see it, falls away.

No, he didn't agree to your project as I told you in the ticket, his words and you went out impatience to communicate that screwing any unbiased answer, other than my
You mention that in your opening statement. "I spawn in shiftstart and decide to turn the little chute area near sec into an sm setup because why not."
The idea and placement is just griefing security with just a little more sophisticated and much harder to get rid of than a normal tider would do.
21:19:36.160] SAY: H3skan/(Arar 'Makita' Dreizehn) "cant do sm research" (Fore Primary Hallway (107,157,2))
21:19:40.762] SAY: H3skan/(Arar 'Makita' Dreizehn) "without centcom yelling at you these days" (Fore Primary Hallway (107,157,2))
21:19:45.296] SAY: H3skan/(Arar 'Makita' Dreizehn) "even got a permit and all" (Fore Primary Hallway (107,157,2))
[8:18 AM]
21:22:59.650] SAY: H3skan/(Arar 'Makita' Dreizehn) "what has engineering become man" (Fore Primary Hallway (108,159,2))
21:23:12.383] SAY: H3skan/(Arar 'Makita' Dreizehn) "i remember the days a bar sm was the norm..." (Fore Primary Hallway (108,159,2))
21:23:14.469] SAY: H3skan/(Arar 'Makita' Dreizehn) "no need" (Fore Primary Hallway (108,159,2))
21:23:15.138] SAY: H3skan/(Arar 'Makita' Dreizehn) "its" (Fore Primary Hallway (108,159,2))
21:23:15.712] SAY: H3skan/(Arar 'Makita' Dreizehn) "so" (Fore Primary Hallway (108,159,2))
21:23:17.306] SAY: H3skan/(Arar 'Makita' Dreizehn) "fucking" (Fore Primary Hallway (108,159,2))
21:23:17.984] SAY: H3skan/(Arar 'Makita' Dreizehn) "safe" (Fore Primary Hallway (108,159,2))
- The IC-OOC issue afterwards is one I will keep in mind and not repeat. I take this topic more serious than most players most of the time and this specific incident stemmed from inpatience, and as a (if I recall correctly) first time thing this would probably just be a note.

You have to understand that Heskan took over for Arar to play damage control for our ticket and I am not sure, the intention of your actions without reviewing your previous rounds if any. I could look up if that helps widen the big picture in my mind.

The logs from me talking to him to whenever you died as arar.
► Show Spoiler
All IC interactions after this are irrelevant either way as the HoS' consent has been already proven via the logs.
Approval through a misunderstanding of yourself to the security officer and bluffing consent to HoS, is what I have noticed yet you have not acknowledged this fact. I asked you twice what was the conversation like with the security officer that you asked? I look at the logs and you weren't part of it? Other than pointing at them.
- The officer dusting someone in the sm is something I find hard to fully take responsibility for, but I will keep future builds walled off. If this kill is fully counted as mine, that would be a 1 day ban if I'm not mistaken.
- Through my initial communications ("Another one off the checklist!" strongly implying this isn't targeted at sec, my intend being to put one everywhere at least once) both IC and OOC, the fact that I asked for permission, I think it would be rather odd to still assume I made the ultra-safe supermatter setup only near sec to annoy and grief them and not to give something for folk to look at in an otherwise unused area. The ban note reading "This is second time in 24 hours that your radiation projects are within the security area." seems odd to me since this again was a completely detached incident from the HFR and repeating sites for construction projects, as long as they are properly authorized and secured, should not be an issue. Again, I don't mean to rules-lawyer in the sense of "oh theres no rule for that", I just don't follow what precisely it is that the ban, now that everything is cleared up, is issued for.
So I'll be brief as my irl days are a bit busy and that 3-day temporary ban itself stems from one previous HFR note, which was round before this. The death of a non-antag on your crystal was very awkward situation that arose from your placement and reasoning. I don't see anything of value of your SM other than grief. You were talked about not to do engineering projects in brig as a no no and your reply was okay, okay.
Has been talked about not seeing either again.
I did not want to see either in brig with poor to no IC reasoning. In our ticket and even here, you never considered much other than your stance of "well, I got permission for HoS" or that "I am excellent at my job". The 4 days extra of engineering ban is to keep you from establishing a 3rd round in a row of the "why not", that would a huge problem. Let's not place you back into position that you might go back into griefing the security area.

We keep circling each other on points and you are right we need a second opinion. So the headmin have notified in your appeal.
An average yellow rock hater and the main reason you may get your shuttle recalled.
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Heskan
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2023 2:24 pm
Byond Username: H3skan
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Re: [Iansdoor] H3skan - Banned for miscommunication

Post by Heskan » #726167

"No, he didn't agree to your project as I told you in the ticket, his words and you went out impatience to communicate that screwing any unbiased answer, other than my" - I'm sorry but I do not understand this sentence, gramatically speaking. What I understand that you are saying is that he did not agree to my project and his words after our ticket were scewed by me phrasing it as a centcom message (ahelp) going on, thus influencing his answer. I can see where you are coming from with the latter, but the former is just... plain wrong?
How is
20:57:58.311] H3skan/(Arar 'Makita' Dreizehn) points at the floor (Fore Primary Hallway (106,160,2))
20:58:01.114] SAY: H3skan/(Arar 'Makita' Dreizehn) "this is fine right" (Fore Primary Hallway (106,160,2))
20:58:04.227] SAY: H3skan/(Arar 'Makita' Dreizehn) "secoff said yes" (Fore Primary Hallway (106,160,2))
20:58:04.452] SAY: Lizardboreansupersoldier/(Michel Garland) "ye" (Fore Primary Hallway (108,159,2))
20:58:55.785] SAY: H3skan/(Arar 'Makita' Dreizehn) "i made second sm at sec" (Fore Primary Hallway (104,160,2))
not a confirmation ("ye" as an answer to "this is fine right" (in respect to me being about to open the crate)) or how would it somehow be influenced by the ticket that began at 21:12:03.825, a full fifteen minutes later? And why are we still talking about the OOC-IC convo I had with him afterwards when we have already established that that was wrong by me and the contents of it are to be discarded due to said influence? I completely agreed with that and yet we still refer to them as if I use them for any of my argumentation.

"The idea and placement is just griefing security with just a little more sophisticated and much harder to get rid of than a normal tider would do. " - I am confused by how you apparently "do enjoy the idea of placing a stupid yellow crystal in every named room in a log of sorts" and call it "A solid gimmick", but when I do it very much for that reason you do not only suspect, but are absolutely certain that its purpose is grief. I have done this project for the same reason I play on this server despite my 1000 hours in engineering, I want to do and construct things for people to enjoy looking at that are an otherwise rare sight. I do not want to take away from people's experience, I want to give them one. I can only assure again that the HFR thing was a miscalculation of radiation spreading and a dumb, spontaneous thing and is different to this, neither being a result of a spite towards security (the former was out of spite, technically, but at an individual and not intended to cause actual harm. It was a playful revenge thing that went out of bounds.). I don't have anything, IC or OOC, to imply I want to grief them and can assure that players would likely vouch for that (or at least not against me as I usually do not have encounters with security). Tell me what I can do to clarify my intentions and I will do it, I don't like that the worst case scenario is being assumed here for, as I see it, no other reason than a uncorrelated event the day prior.

"Approval through a misunderstanding of yourself to the security officer and bluffing consent to HoS, is what I have noticed yet you have not acknowledged this fact" - you still have not copied the interaction with the secoff where they agreed to what I said. Either way, this seems irrelevant since the hos has the final word and his final word on me making the build was "ye". Please take some more of the interaction after the snipped with the officer you pulled out and we can look at that. Maybe I did really mistake a "yes" from the officer as an agreement with my plans, but for that we need to actual logs of that, not the part prior which has nothing to do with it since they were talking to the prisoner, not me. Either way I wasn't "bluffing", and I don't know why you assume that I did, I was acting with the understanding that that officer agreed to my plans. Which again I find not very relevant for the hos' decision to begin with, but I do see where you are coming from.

"You were talked about not to do engineering projects in brig as a no no and your reply was okay, okay." - what. I understand what you are trying to tell me is that I need a more solid confirmation than a simple agreeing, that brig is completely off limits no matter what seems like an arbitrary restriction that I never agreed to. I agree that I can do a more solid confirmation process, but restricting an entire area from such constructions is not something you have said yet nor something that makes sense to me, given that arguably more risky areas like medbay are, on rare occasions, sites of projects like BSAs or even HFRs (the latter, the infamous medbay donut, obviously only if a rad res virus is spread but I have seen it done). Again I look forward to a headmin ruling towards such constructions and their required confirmation process and am ready to adapt to it, even if that would include an all out ban on security as a construction site.

"You have to understand that Heskan took over for Arar to play damage control for our ticket and I am not sure, the intention of your actions without reviewing your previous rounds if any. I could look up if that helps widen the big picture in my mind." - so you are saying I did what exactly, besides asking the hos again oocly which wasnt ok obviously? Give the rad meds? Those were very very clearly in response to stray rads hitting an officer, not in response to the ticket. Again I feel like in dubio contra reo is being assumed here, why are you weighing every action I took as malicously as possible? I made the thing for people to look at, not to grief, I chose sec as a site because I had that area in mind for a while, not because I have some vendetta against security, I asked the hos with the context of an officer approving it because that's what I heard and understood, not pruposefully bluffing to him to sway his opinion, and I gave the meds when stray rads hit an officer, not because the ticket started. Why are all of these things so unbelievable?

I would once more like to note that I have adjusted my procedure for all future builds with an extensive 3 page document that I will shove in the captain / heads face before starting construction, adding a door at the entrance to any SM that I will weld and bolt shut to prevent dustings and an additional layer of shielding to prevent even stray rads from hitting folk (or I bother viro to make me a rad res virus). If the confirmation he gave me ("ye") is not sufficient to authrorize something like this than that's a complaint I can understand, work with and fix.

Either way, I am looking forward to an independant and unbiased admin taking a look at this and hope that this situation can finally be resolved to the satisfaction of all parties involved.
I just want a more solid guideline for others and I to follow for such projects so that this does not repeat.
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Heskan
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2023 2:24 pm
Byond Username: H3skan
Location: in your walls

Re: [Iansdoor] H3skan - Banned for miscommunication

Post by Heskan » #726662

Any news of some kind? Not like I really mind the now expired bans (although I would still like a note edit or even removal as reasoned for by my points above), but most importantly we need a concrete ruling on risky builds. These have been a grey area for far too long and I would like to resume doing them, but for obvious reasons won't until a decision has been made. Case-by-case simply does not cut it, as this interaction here outlines interpretations of safety and responsibility vary vastly between engineers. Personally, I think the idea I will implement regardless of the decision (a detailed and clear agreement on the plan, both written and verbal by a head or captain) is a solid starting point, maybe with extra guidelines for safety measures added, such as reasonable radiation protection and healing as well as a rule on accessibility (for example completely locked or hard to access).

I don't want to put pressure on anyone, I just want to able to finally to close this tab and be done with this.
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dendydoom
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Joined: Fri Dec 04, 2020 10:40 am
Byond Username: Dendydoom

Re: [Iansdoor] H3skan - Banned for miscommunication

Post by dendydoom » #726665

hello,

sorry for the delay - we can totally appreciate that it's something that'll be playing on your mind until you get a resolution.

this is quite a complex situation which we are having to unpack and investigate, and we will discuss our thoughts on how we'd like to address a precedent for this sort of thing. a lot of moving parts, and all that. but rest assured that you definitely haven't been missed!
MrStonedOne wrote:I always read dendy's walls of text
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Heskan
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2023 2:24 pm
Byond Username: H3skan
Location: in your walls

Re: [Iansdoor] H3skan - Banned for miscommunication

Post by Heskan » #726666

Thank you, great to hear!
My primary fear was that this just gets closed and forgotten.
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dragomagol
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Joined: Fri Jun 19, 2020 11:04 pm
Byond Username: Dragomagol

Re: [Iansdoor] H3skan - Banned for miscommunication

Post by dragomagol » #728194

Sorry for taking so long to address this. We're going to be breaking down this updated note:
This is second time in 24 hours that your radiation projects are within the security area.
In the same vein as above, we don't see this pattern as anything other than a coincidence.
in-game you went on the behalf of "centcom" to question the HoS approval of said project, referred to the ticket ICy
https://tgstation13.org/parsed-logs/ter ... nd-226769/
(emphasis mine)
► Show Spoiler
This is where the critical miscommunication happened between parties: H3skan was referring to getting permission, period. Ians was referring to getting permission before the construction even began. H3skan knew that he had gotten some form of permission, and when he was told "you didn't get HoS permission," something that was wrong and that he had actively sought out prior, he went to get confirmation from the only other accessible source: the HoS.

The initial "gods" comment is a bit eh, but the centcom comments I actually find to be totally reasonable in-character. Talking back and forth with CC about a building permit seems like something that could be happening in-universe.

On all the points, we don't think that the note should stay and will be removing it.

Kieth4: Agree
DendyDoom: Agree
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