[Maxipat] avaster

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avaster
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[Maxipat] avaster

Post by avaster » #727505

BYOND account: avaster

Ban/note type (Check what applies):
() - Server Ban

Ban/note length: 1week
Ban/note reason:You have been banned by Maxipat from the server.
Reason: R1, R11 - While getting critted by a human warden, started cycling through as many slurs as they could humanly figure out, amongst them several times "retard", "mongoloid", "ligger". While all those words on their own are okay-ish, calling someone, as you admitted, "down syndrome" is not okay, same as hiding real-life slurs behind ligger and such. On top of that, entire say log of this player that round consists almost only of different non-slur insults and other toxicity. Please use this time to learn how to be less obnoxious to people around you.
Time ban was placed:19:22gmt
Server you were playing on when banned:terry
Round ID in which ban was placed:227809


Hello, I'd like to address the recent ban and share my side of the story/explain my perspective.

'Admitting to calling someone down syndrome'

I think the quote that Mxipat is talking about In my ticket was this line:
"PM to-Admins: if im not mistaken, mongaloid is just another word for someone with downs, its just like saying retard. i dont see the difference, as they're similar 'slurs', retard is ok but mongaloid isnt? it is a grey line"
In my ticket with the admin, I mentioned the use of the word "mongoloid" and its similarity to the word "retard." My intention was not to justify the use of offensive language but to understand the reasoning behind certain words being allowed while others are not (Maxipat was originally unsure if the word 'mongaloid' was ok).

I was trying to give an objective opinion to justify the reason behind why the word 'mongoloid' is ok. I didn't admit calling someone down syndrome here (which I think is why this could potentially be a miss-understanding). I use the word 'slurs' loosely in quotations to further illustrate this. What I was trying to explain was that since the word 'retard' is generally ok to be used on the server, one could assume that the word 'mongoloid' is allowed as well since they are in the same general category. Essentially my logic was that it wouldn't be sensible to censor the word 'mongoloid', but let the word 'retard' be used whenever. I apologize if my explanation came across as insensitive or offensive.

hiding behind real-life slurs behind ligger

It was not my intention to use the word 'ligger' as a substitute for racism, originally I also explicitly mentioned this in the ticket
my intentions were not a disguise as n word, thats a huge assumption
I believe you could potentially argue that anyone who uses 'ligger' is using it as a substitute for the other word, because it is replacing the letter N with an L. However its very unlikely to actually prove that anyone who uses 'ligger' uses it intentionally as a substitute for racism, which I presume is why this word is allowed in the first place. It's impossible to prove anyone's intent however I've been accused of using this word maliciously without a doubt.

At the time I was unaware that the word 'ligger' is not allowed towards other species who are not lizards (since there was no rule for this).
As far as I was concerned it was allowed as there was no indication it wasn't, I apologise if it looked malicious from an outside perspective however it is not true.

Toxicity / Obnoxious

I'm unsure if Maxipat is not happy with the IC or OOC behavior, for that reason, I will try to give a better understanding of both

IC Reason: During the round, I was being stunned by my own security officers, attempted to be shot with disablers in hallways by other security, critted by my own security officers, as a security officer. I was also shoved and harassed by complete randoms. The reason behind the security using non-lethals for supposedly no reason was because people were being forced to be clowns that round. I didn't want to be forced to do this since I don't want to look like a clown and I lost my sec jumpsuit numerous times. I had to run back to the SecDrobe machine around 3-4 times because of this. These things explain why the whole round looks like it consists of me typing negativity as the whole round was a shitfest of people harassing others who weren't dressed as clowns.

In character I personally think I had a valid reason to be upset due to the other players' actions and abuse of their equipment/rank. From my own perspective it looks like an IC issue since at the time I was being beaten to death by my fellow security officer. I didn't say these words / was obnoxious for no reason. My ban reason was 'learn to be less obnoxious to those around you', however I was being beaten to death by the warden, and before that a secoff was stun batoning me. Even after the warden nearly killed me, they threatened to demote me even though I was the one getting harassed by them. It sounds ridiculous because it is. I'm sure its reasonable to assume anyone in a situation like that is allowed (and is likely) to mouth-off to that person, its expected. However mouthing-off to the warden beating me to death and I get banned for being obnoxious. It doesn't seem right to me as it seems like a clear IC issue from my perspective. Their actions caused me to insult them, not the other way around. I wasn't trying to be obnoxious on purpose, or trying to be obnoxious for the sake of being obnoxious. I believe their own actions lead to this. However I could be mistaken.

OOC Reason: I was bwoink'd being accused of racism and ableism. These were extreme assumptions toward my character and naturally I was upset. I believe if I truly meant those things, I would not have defended myself and gotten so upset at these accusations.

Conclusion

I hope this explanation provides clarity on my actions, and I'm open to further discussion if needed. Thank you for considering my perspective, and I apologize for any offense caused. If you have any questions please let me know and I will try to answer in the best way I can.
Last edited by avaster on Fri Apr 26, 2024 12:16 am, edited 19 times in total.
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dragomagol
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Re: [Maxipat] avaster

Post by dragomagol » #727509

Hello, I am not Maxipat and am not taking over in their stead.

Your entire game logs for this round:
https://tgstation13.org/parsed-logs/ter ... nd-227809/
► Show Spoiler
If you were so upset by the actions occurring IC, why not ahelp it yourself?
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avaster
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Re: [Maxipat] avaster

Post by avaster » #727510

My personal preference is that I'd rather keep things in character and avoid resorting to reporting other people unless something truly upset me. being banned or noted sucks for the other person & sometimes I simply just don't want to escalate something to admins because something hasn't affected me that badly

Although I was insulting the warden, his actions ultimately made the round more interesting (for me as well) which is evidentially why I didn't resort to ahelping instantly and just hoped to keep it IC between me and him. - atleast that's what I hoped
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Maxipat
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Re: [Maxipat] avaster

Post by Maxipat » #727575

Hey, thanks for appealing! Since you've addressed the ban in points, i'm going to do so as well.
1. Down syndrome and why i decided you've crossed the line.

Here's our ticket with relevant part that influenced my decision bolded out and seperated by new lines:
► Show Spoiler

Both mongoloid and retard, as you've correctly pointed out aren't outright banned. You can get away with calling someone a retard and not suffer major consequences apart maybe getting your ass kicked IC-ly. (Mongoloid is a bit trickier, because online, retard is commonly used as a synonym to idiot, while the same isn't true for mongoloid, so you should be extra prepared to defend your case when admins possibly ask you about it.) What crossed the line was your explanation, how you use BOTH as a synonym and a word that's supposed to target people's with down syndrome. You don't have to insult a person with actual down's syndrome using those to be bigoted, it's enough that you try to use that health condition against someone, same as if you called a non-gay person a faggot trying to demean them, that's not allowed.
avaster wrote: ↑Thu Apr 25, 2024 8:00 pm
2. Ligger - "...but my speech freedom!?"

Again, the ahelp but now cropped to only contain ligger discussion:
► Show Spoiler
MrStonedOne in peanut thread wrote:
if you use ligger in a context that seems out of place and more fitting for the n-word you are gonna have a bad time.

Using it on a human (regardless of skincolor) smells like you are just using it as a stand in the n-word, as a random insult to be thrown around to get a reaction. at that point it stops being speciesism and stops fitting under the exception for ic species-ism.
kieth4 in adminbus after i asked there for 2nd hand opinion wrote: Image
(Ligger is an in universe thing if you're using it to replace actual slurs it's not good)
In this situation, you were being beaten up by a human warden, so you've decided to start cycling through known to you slurs, one of them was "you ligger". When you're using specieism (as you've said) slurs against lizards against non-lizards, it's up to you to prove that you're not trying to mask a "n-word" there under pretense of specieism. Instead of trying to explain yourself, you decided to tell me that i'm wrong in my assumption, but gave no arguments for that except that apparently it happens all the time.

3. Toxicity (of our server, our server)

Your game logs, cropped only to your spoken text, with login and logout (when you got banned) included:
https://tgstation13.org/parsed-logs/ter ... nd-227809/
► Show Spoiler
It took you only 40 seconds since roundstart, when you started throwing insults left and right. No player should feel forced to be around a person that can't form a single sentence without throwing an insult or a slur inside. Yes, you can get angry at people, yes you can roleplay a mean character, but don't be a "fucking cunt" while doing that (read as: do something more in a round than insult every person you come across). The round took an hour, yet you only had maybe 3 log lines (single words) where you weren't trying to insult someone, out of 38 lines. Admins are here to make sure everyone is having a fun time playing a game, and what you've shown me in this round is a clear cut rule 1 "being a dick" case.

As to OOC toxicity, it didn't really affect my reasoning because i didn't feel as if you were toxic towards me, although the way i started the ticket leaves a sour taste in my mouth for what I apologize.

4. What's next?
I can offer you a decrease in ban duration to 4 days instead of 7, as well as eventual re-wording of the note if you please so and have anything in mind. I'm not willing to fully unban you and i still believe what i put in the ban reason, you should take this time to think whether your time on server is something that makes this community a better place, and if not - think how you can change it, because I wouldn't want to play with you around with how things are right now.
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avaster
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Re: [Maxipat] avaster

Post by avaster » #727579

Hello, thank you for taking your time to reply. I'd like to take the time to address a few things in your response

1. Down-syndrome synonyms

I know you say that the line was crossed when I explained how I supposedly used 'retard' and 'mongaloid' as both synonyms to target down-syndrome, but all I was trying to explain in the ticket was the logical underlying reason (solely based on rules) why both would be allowed.
I didn't give my personal reason why I used these words, if it looks this way I deeply apologise but I think this is a miss-understanding and possibly a mistake on my end trying to explain my point and not properly phrasing it properly which could look to you as if I'm using it to target people with down-syndrome.

2. Ligger

I think I mentioned this in my post but my intention which I tried to make crystal clear in the bwoink was that I wasn't using it a substitute despite how it looks from an outside perspective. The reason I tried telling you "you're wrong in your assumption" was because these were extreme assumptions against me, so I thought that things of this sensitive nature should be proven without a reasonable doubt because they're very serious & sensitive accusations and are based solely on assumption. My defence which I think I mentioned in the ticket is that it is an in character slur used to target lizardpeople. This is why I thought it was perfectly ok to use for anyone else as well because it is simply an in character universe thing that gets said.

I wish there was a warning/rule instead of a straight ban to let me know that using these slurs are not ok for other species. I'm wasn't sure I was meant to know this wasn't ok since my intentions were pure.

3. Toxicity

I always have an in-character reason for the things I say. It's extremely hard to recall but within the first 40 seconds of round-start something happened with another sec-off and then they shoved me after, so we evidentially had conflict. I didn't escalate further since it wouldn't be right to harass them over a minor issue, so I said 'cunt' and must've simply walked off. Then 10 minutes later I said to someone they're a 'fucking idiot' which I presume is when I was getting turned into a clown or stun baton'd by another security.

Essentially what I'm trying to say is if other players weren't harassing me, my only bad word would be 'cunt' for that entire round. I dont think It is as bad as it seems.

The round might've been an hour, but If im not mistaken based soley on the logs my own round only lasted 20(?) minutes, with the other 40 or so minutes in a bwoink/being beaten to death so I think it is slightly miss-leading in that sense. I could be completely wrong about this as I'm only going on what the logs say at a glance.

4.

Thank you for the ultimatum and willingness to reduce my ban. However I'd rather a second opinion if you insist on keeping it at 4 days. At the same time I'm not trying to be delusional, I truly understand all you're trying to do is make me a better player and turn a new leaf. You do not want a player spreading negative energy. For that, I completely understand. Going forward & In the future I'll try my hardest to simply not say anything when I'm getting harassed and try my upmost hardest to try to be a different person since I think that's best for admins, me & the other player.

At the time however I truly thought all the things I said were IC issues, because actual issues arose during that round which made my character say all of these things, I didn't go around and splurt this nonsense and be a dick to anyone simply playing the game - things happened in game and I reacted, albeit in an over-reactive demeanor which I will improve in the future going forward.


*I also want to just point out one last thing where you think I was trying to say 'inc*l', looking back at the logs I did not intend to say that. I was being punched and my words were being cut off. I was trying to say 'since the start' hence why I said:
's'
'ince' - which looks like inc*l.
Last edited by avaster on Fri Apr 26, 2024 9:34 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Maxipat
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Re: [Maxipat] avaster

Post by Maxipat » #727582

If I get it right you're asking for headmin review?
If yes, I'll ping headmins today.

If not, I can elaborate more about it tomorrow morning in European time, it's getting late already BUT I don't think I'm gonna change my mind about it being 4 days.
avaster wrote: ↑Fri Apr 26, 2024 8:27 pm
*snip*
Thank you for the ultimatum and willingness to reduce my ban. However I'd rather a second opinion if you insist on keeping it at 4 days. (...)
*snip*
EDIT, forgot to put this here: Yeah I realized that ince was meant to be since after rereading your logs fully.
Last edited by Maxipat on Fri Apr 26, 2024 9:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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avaster
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Re: [Maxipat] avaster

Post by avaster » #727583

I would rather not get a head-admin
but if nothing I've said will change/has changed your opinion I'd rather get an outside perspective / objective opinion to the situation. hope you understand
Last edited by avaster on Fri Apr 26, 2024 9:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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dragomagol
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Re: [Maxipat] avaster

Post by dragomagol » #727584

:(
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avaster
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Re: [Maxipat] avaster

Post by avaster » #727585

i have nothing against head admins, I would rather not bother any 😿
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dragomagol
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Re: [Maxipat] avaster

Post by dragomagol » #727592

PapaMichael wrote: ↑Fri Apr 26, 2024 9:27 pm my objective opinion is that this guy sucks, is utterly toxic ic to the point of it no longer being justifiable under the pretenses of "ic", absolutely knew what he was doing, and was incredibly lucky to get off with 4 days
you can send my check in the mail
Jacquerel wrote: ↑Fri Apr 26, 2024 9:27 pm
avaster wrote: ↑Fri Apr 26, 2024 9:09 pm but if nothing I've said will change/has changed your opinion I'd rather get an outside perspective / objective opinion to the situation. hope you understand
Hello, I am an outside perspective.
I think that the ban should be retained and also that your bed should be filled with sand. Thank you.
The people have spoken. 👨‍⚖️
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Re: [Maxipat] avaster

Post by Timberpoes » #727593

Tattle let me do a final post clarifying some stuff about the rules.

viewtopic.php?p=636029#p636029
The part where disability-related bigotry was added to Rule 11 was done in this policy thread.

I was a headmin at the time and pushed against the expansion of Rule 11 to cover disability-style discrimination. However, the following part of that policy post is extremely important:
1. At this time, we are choosing not to go as far as to say all uses of the word "retard"/"retarded" are bigoted, just hurtful, but being hurtful isn't what rule 11 is about. However, excessive harassment/spew like this (such as repeatedly demeaning someone to the point where you're being a dick more than you are roleplaying as a rude character) will continue to be enforcable under rule 1. There are no changes there, and we intend to defend admins who act on that.
Note the very specific phrasing: "... will continue to be enforcable under Rule 1" and "There are no changes here."

Historically when a player's attempt at roleplaying goes beyond being merely rude and approaches excessive, it becomes an admin issue. We're all here to have fun and very few people want to roleplay around the kind of kids that you'd find in a CoD lobby.

Similarly, https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Rules
Rule 11 has a precedent reading:
Admins are encouraged to use rule 1 to deal with instances where """IC""" bigotry is excessive or designed as a mask for OOC bigotry.
Just because a player didn't directly break Rule 11 doesn't mean that the admin team are forced to ignore things. Rule 11's precedent still points to alternative rules where players are ruining the fun around the edges of Rule 11.

The goal has always been to allow a reasonable level of freedom for players to get into conflict within the spirit of SS13. That reasonable level of freedom ends where one player's actions are unreasonably and out of the scope of what we intend causing hurt or harm to the actual people IRL behind the characters.
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