[BAN] [Barnet] Dawson1917

[Dawson1917]

BYOND account: Dawson1917
Character name: Ismael 'Oats' Utanta
Ban type: Command roles
Ban length: 2 weeks
Ban reason: Banned from Roles: Captain, Field Commander, Pilot Officer, Chief Ship Engineer, Requisitions Officer, Chief Medical Officer, Squad Leader, SOM Squad Leader for 2 weeks - Injected engineer with sleeping chems after he attempted to go back to a plat miner against his orders as FC. When said engineer died, stripped him of his armor and told a Corpsman not to revive him.
Round ID in which ban was placed: 22796
Your side of the story: Marines had just arrived at the SOM base disk on Slumbridge (next to Engineering and opening right into caves), I was FC for the op. This was the second disk we were doing and the most important since it sat next to caves. I was circling the area around disk to gather stragglers and get the area cleared of maze and properly defended. I saw an engineer on the bridge leading out to an asteroid next to caves with a plat miner on it.

I asked him to go back and hold West (the bridge, south of the disk, is a good chokepoint for keeping the area below disk from getting flanked):

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MAJ Ismael 'Oats' Utanta says, "Back."
MAJ Ismael 'Oats' Utanta says, "Hold west."
CPL Checkers H. Fleckers says, "Epic plat miner."
CPL Checkers H. Fleckers says, "So much money."
MAJ Ismael 'Oats' Utanta says, "Don't care."
CPL Checkers H. Fleckers says, "Ok cope."
CPL Checkers H. Fleckers says, "I aint going back."
MAJ Ismael 'Oats' Utanta says, "Not enough marines to guard it."

After this point, when he kept going to the miner, I attempted to inject him with 3u anesthetic so I could drag him back to the area below disk, since we needed defences more than we needed a guy dying trying to solo hold the worst plat miner on the map. Accidentally punched him when I tried to inject because I missed clicking the hypo out of my inventory.

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Ismael 'Oats' Utanta punched Checkers H. Fleckers!
CPL Checkers H. Fleckers yells, "I dont care!!"
MAJ Ismael 'Oats' Utanta says, "Bad engi."
3 units injected. 54 units remaining in Advanced hypospray.
CPL Checkers H. Fleckers says, "I guard it myself."
You put Advanced hypospray into the medkit pouch.
CPL Checkers H. Fleckers says, "No based engie."
CPL Checkers H. Fleckers snores.
Ismael 'Oats' Utanta has grabbed Checkers H. Fleckers passively!

I grabbed and jetpacked him back West to safety and waited for him to wake up (the 3u anesthetic lasts for about 10 seconds before you wake up - if you inject less than 3u it doesn't do anything except make you yawn), pointed at the bridge chokepoint and told him to cade it.

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Ismael 'Oats' Utanta points to Checkers H. Fleckers
MAJ Ismael 'Oats' Utanta says, "Cade."

He instantly sprinted back to the miner by himself. Apparently the anesthetic was still clearing out of his system despite him waking up, so he fell asleep again as he ran to the miner and got attacked by xenos. Not knowing this, I tried calling to him over engineer radio:

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[Engineering (FCDR)] MAJ Ismael 'Oats' Utanta says, "Checkers."
[Engineering (FCDR)] MAJ Ismael 'Oats' Utanta says, "If you die I'm looting your mats, cutting off your head, and sending your body shipside."

I didn't intend to actually decap him but after having him refuse to do his job as an engineer even when asked so he could play PFC+ at a miner, I wanted him to understand I would not be reviving him for disobeying orders.
He died at the miner shortly after and xenos started using his corpse as bait - to which a trickle of marines started getting diverted from the disk to go to his cross on the map. I didn't want yet another death spiral of marines getting baited into saving someone that died far from disk (this exact thing ended up happening later in the round when stragglers didn't move to the next disk), so I got a sniper to cover me from the bridge, synaptizine'd myself and went to grab + jetpack his corpse back to safety.
A medic came over shortly as I was dragging his body back to disk and I told them he is not getting revived, because I told him not to go to that plat miner alone. The medic said he was deaf. I dragged the engineer's body into disk and stripped him like I said I would, told the medics next to me not to revive because I told him he would not be revived if he died at the plat miner, gave the mats in his armor to the synth to reinforce disk (which at this point was still mazed and only caded by the synth, from what I could see), then took razorwire from his backpack and used it to reinforce the caves flank of the disk that the bulk of the marine force was trying to hold.

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MAJ Ismael 'Oats' Utanta says, "Leave him dead."
MAJ Ismael 'Oats' Utanta says, "Told him."
CPL Christian Frederiksen asks, "On god?"
MAJ Ismael 'Oats' Utanta says, "No revive if he suicides at plat."
CPL Christian Frederiksen says, "What if we just give him a knife."
MAJ Ismael 'Oats' Utanta says, "And he suicided at plat."

It was as I was handing the mats to the synth that I was bwoinked by Barnet:

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-- Private Message --
Admin PM from-Barnet: Er, so why did you strip Checkers?
Click on the staff member's name to reply.
PM to-Staff: I told him not to go the plat, that there were not enough marines, and he refused. I said if he dies there he will not be revived and I will strip his corpse. He died. We need engis guarding disk, not solo suiciding at plat miners

I saw Checkers, the engineer, had been revived at this point. I don't know if it was via admin heal or a medic, and I didn't care since now his materials were being used to guard the disk as per the objective of the game.

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-- Private Message --
Admin PM from-Barnet: And apparently you injected him with sleeping drugs?
Click on the staff member's name to reply.
PM to-Staff: Yeah the first time he refused I gave him 2.4u soporific (about 10s of sleep) and dragged him back to bridge where I told him to cade. He ran back to miner immediately and died alone.

I continued holding disk after this point and moved to the cave entrance facing the disk, where most marines were. There were no defences here that I could see except the razorwire I threw earlier from Checkers' bag. A king summon occurred and xenos collapsed on the marine force, almost wiping us but there were enough marines that xenos were held off and the queen got killed. Last blue cycle of disk was after this, we print disk and start getting ready to move to the last disk, which is right next to nuke. The rest of the round is not really relevant from this point on, except that a group of around 7-8 marines led/accompanied by SL Domingo Elliot offered to hold the plat miner from before and I said they should try to hold it to distract xenos North while we do the last disk South, but not to die for the miner. They couldn't hold it for long even with TAD support (this miner is a bloodbath every time marines try to hold it, and I was very aware that a single engineer trying to solo it nearly an hour into the round was just going to die, get drained by xenos, and used as bait to draw other marines away from disk, which is exactly what happened) and had to retreat.

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-- Private Message --
Admin PM from-Barnet: Your duty as FC is to lead by suggestion, not by force. You carrying a hypospray full of sleeping chems is extremely questionable to me.
I dislike stealth plat mining as much as you do, but griefing him by stripping him after he dies and sleep cheming him is not okay. 
In addition, trying to interfere with a corpsman job saying not to revive him is fucked as well. If a player is griefing, ahelp; 
though even as unsensible to you as what he did, it was an attempt to help the team with points. Given this, I would hand out a command ban.
Click on the staff member's name to reply.

This PM came while we were doing the last disk. I did not know what to even do with this response because it made no sense. Especially "If a player is griefing, ahelp"; not for a moment have I ever thought that admins would respond to an ahelp about marines going against orders and suiciding or throwing away limited roles. There was no way Checkers was going to hold that miner alone against a hive of ~20 xenos right next to the miner. Even if he had, the potential points from a miner were of less importance to us than the disks. Marines nearly wiped because there were no defences facing caves at the disk, and we were flush with points from xenos dying trying to attack the disks. Would ahelping him have done anything at all? I tried using words to have him defend the disk, I tried physically dragging him there, I tried telling him defending the miner was nonviable, I tried telling him that if he insisted on doing the miner then died, he would not be getting revived and his engineer equipment would be put to use for the disk. He went ahead regardless because what are you going to do about it? If he dies, he'll get revived or at least marines will die going after his corpse. Command roles are not allowed to enforce a plan beyond words - if a player chooses to go against orders, trying to stop them or at least not reward them for their behavior will see administration stepping in on behalf of that player (eg: "trying to interfere with a corpsman job saying not to revive him is fucked as well"). Even simply not reviving players that go against your team is against the rules.

I wrote a response to this PM but it automuted me from ahelp because the response was too long (this must surprise you). Here is what I wrote:

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'Will you actually do anything if I ahelp players that are going against orders? I can't command marines when disobeying orders is protected by admins. 
Checkers took an important job for the round and ran off to die at a plat miner when I as FC told him not to, that he would die, that he would not get revived if he died, and tried dragging him back to bridge so he could build defences. 
He still immediately ran back to the miner, died, and was used as bait by other xenos. What am I supposed to do as command when marines are able to sabotage the op and face zero consequences? 
The entire reason I carry a soporific hypospray is so I can drag marines back to where they are needed without hurting them. Being slept for 10 seconds and pulled back to a defended area is literally the least harmful thing I can do to try and organise these marines.
The only other thing I can do is ask them to pull back, which I do every time, and get ignored. Should I ahelp these marines instead? I haven't until now because I've assumed admins won't do anything about them

Why you think you should be unbanned: I went FC today specifically to try and run tight ops where we have a clear objective and stick to it, after getting tired of so many recent rounds lost where marines are winning at disks and then a handful of marines run off to wipe in caves or stand in the middle of nowhere while leaving disks undefended until they get backlined. If you don't want marines to trickle away from disks then you need to keep them together and make sure they know what their objective is. People running off away from disks, dying, then causing a trickle of marines to leave disk and die trying to save their bodies is the most common way marines lose the game and xenos start steamrolling, besides rushing into caves and wiping en masse. As command, and especially as FC, what are you supposed to do about marines that run off into the maze and suicide, or who take limited roles and refuse to use them to benefit their team? If someone's response to command telling them to do the objective is "cope", what is command supposed to do, exactly, besides go along with them and hope they don't sabotage the op too much, even when that's how most would-be marine wins are lost?

I've been told to open a policy thread by the banning admin because current policy holds command as having no actual weight in the game beyond being phero dispensers and marines have no expectation to follow orders or even not work against their team beyond outright immediate grief. Expect another wall of text??

[Barnet]

A wall of text is what you have asked, and it is what I shall give.
I'll preface this that I did make a genuine mistake in part of the words I spoke to you, this precedent in particular:
"Limited roles like Squad Medic and Smartgunner should not waste their equipment, or disregard the chain of command and their leads. They have the responsibility of supporting their team, and not playing solo." This is precedent 8 under Rule 5. When I spoke to you in Discord about it, I was fine with Engineers going in under the hopeful intent of securing miners regardless of the Chain of Command, but the second part deliberately says against that. That is my bad and I will admit it. Too much personal bias on what I think an Engi is allowed to do alone. On that end, you were perfectly justified in asking the Engineer in question to go away from the miner.

However, that does not excuse what you did in lieu of that. As said I have said previously;
1) I find it extremely questionable that you have a hypospray full of anesthetics as FC of all roles, to drag marines back if they are not following your exact order. Here is what you said in response to that:
"The entire reason I carry a soporific hypospray is so I can drag marines back to where they are needed without hurting them. Being slept for 10 seconds and pulled back to a defended area is literally the least harmful thing I can do to try and organize these marines."

I will cite the Escalation rules for this one:
"The game mode is based on factions versus factions, as opposed to antagonist paranoia. Shenanigans must be kept harmless. If they end up with harm of same-team members, making their job severely more difficult or annoying (such as stealing essential gear), or depleting resources in ways that negatively affect the team, then they have crossed the line." (Depleting resources can be used in another argument against my rulings, but this was moreso on Chain of Command.)
If we wanted to get into the specifics of what each jobs "role" is, maybe you sleeping them is directing Marines into the job they were assigned by Command to? If not, then it does make whatever they *are* doing "severely more difficult or annoying". In any case, it does harm their ability to play the game. I'll bring this up in the next point.

2) After Checkers died and was recovered, here is what you said:
"I dragged the engineer's body into disk and stripped him like I said I would, told the medics next to me not to revive because I told him he would not be revived if he died at the plat miner, gave the mats in his armor to the synth to reinforce disk (which at this point was still mazed and only caded by the synth, from what I could see), then took razorwire from his backpack and used it to reinforce the caves flank of the disk that the bulk of the marine force was trying to hold."

Just don't, this makes the job that you wanted him to do impossible, and what the Corpsman wants to do (revive people) impossible. If someone is genuinely suiciding to the degree that you do not want him revived, ahelp. It is also stated in the Escalation rules explicitly that stealing essential gear (off of a revivable corpse in this case) is not allowed. This is the rule that was actually broken, not my misinformed statement that "Engineers can do as they please, as long as it is helping the mission." Corpsman and Engineers are on the same totem pole in the Chain of Command, and will be treated as such as per Rule 5, Precedent 8.

In the end what I really wish is that you ahelp these things instead of taking it into your own hands by sleeping them, or stripping them and telling other not to revive them. You as FC have the right to force Corpsman and above roles to do what you need them to do. However, what I wish to be answered by a headmin is how far this extends. Let me explain, in your words:

"Will you actually do anything if I ahelp players that are going against orders? I can't command marines when disobeying orders is protected by admins."

As I just stated yes, admins should take ahelps for players that are directly going against orders. The question is, though, those roles are not the bulk of the marine force; Squad Marines are. Because they are not "limited," does that justify them directly going against orders, or would that just be too much for the Admin team to handle?

Back to the ban at hand, I will reduce it by a good amount due to my misjudgement, and I apologize for that much. However, escalation rules were still broken and that needs to be addressed in accordance to your previous notes. 5 days total of a command only ban seems reasonable to me.

TLDR; Ahelp if limited roles are going against your command, do not sleep them. You have authority over them, but not the right to harm their ability to play the game. If this can extend to Squad Marines is up to the headmins.

[Dawson1917]

Thank you for responding. It probably doesn't matter but I've been carrying an anesthetic hypospray as command/medic for roughly 20 command/medic rounds in the last few weeks and I think Checkers is the first marine I've actually used it on for going against orders. The only times I can recall using it otherwise is for Minh Drill spamming TTS on the Alamo (you know why) and earlier this FC round when Lexia Black called me a nerd while I was teaching a marine how vali works (I hypervened them after). I can ditch it from my loadout, it's just comforting that if all else fails and a marine is absolutely insistent on leading other marines into certain death, you have the tools to put a pause on that and try to pull marines back to a sensible location. The entire reason I started carrying one was because I was looking for a way to deal with 'those' marines without impeding them for more than a few seconds or angering admins.

I will ahelp these players in the future. The reason I have never ahelped a player for disobeying orders like this is because I got the sense that admins would not do anything about it - it's become so common for roles like Engineer to suicide at plat miners while disks go undefended that you yourself said they don't get bwoinked for it, even as groups of engineers. I still don't know if it will do anything since there seems to be confusion about how much responsibility players actually have to their team; can engineers suicide at miners and disregard disks even when told otherwise by command (according to policy this is not the case, though it appears to not be enforced)? Can medics just join up for gamer meds and only revive people that get dragged right to them? Is command supposed to actually command or are they just roles for powergaming, and if they're meant to command then how are they supposed to manage marines that actively go against orders to the point it proves a detriment to their team, without needing admin intervention to do their job?
I hope there can be some clarification from headmins on this matter.

[Barnet]

After having a discussion with headmins, I'll just put their "verdict" here. The rule and precedent will stay in place, so it does *not* apply to Squad Marines, just limited roles.
Keep in mind if you DO ahelp for a corpsman or engineer "disobeying" orders, they should be good backing behind it. Ahelping 5 times about it per round will get some eyebrows raised.
In all, have a good one. Consider this resolved. I'll move this into the resolved area after a day or two.