2k17 /pol/

[Super Aggro Crag]

Bottom post of the previous page:

Putting your country first is not a bad thing, its Realpolitik. As a citizen I want my country to do their best for me and mine. The CEO of burger king would find himself without a job if he spent all his time making Jack in the Box and Carls Junior profitable at the expense of his own company.

[ShadowDimentio]

Nationalism is like capitalism, a healthy self interest makes everyone's lives better. If every country was run by people looking out for their country's best interests then the world would be perfect.

Unfortunately politics is a hotbed for corruption and people looking to sell their country's well-being out to the highest bidder.

[Super Aggro Crag]

Fucking REPTOIDS!!!!

[Malkevin]

There is nothing wrong with nationalism

Natzi natzi!

[Wyzack]

Can you at least agree that the way Trump throws out baseless hyperbole is a bit unprofessional for the President of the United States? (so and so is the best ever, the worst ever, the most X ever, believe me)

[ShadowDimentio]

I guess, but you could certainly find a lot worse traits in a president than "a bit unprofessional".

[imblyings]

#notmypresident #notamerican #wishhewasmypresident

some of the greater australian senators are great because they aren't afraid to hurt feelings or be ""unprofessional""" on social media

[Malkevin]

I like trump because when he says he'll do something he does it, not like your usual political class that play lip service to appease the masses then don't do it (remember when the UK lib dems promised no tuition fees increase but then got in this coalition with the cons and raised them anyway?)

[starmute]

Nationalism inspires people to work together with people they don't know, it inspires people to take care of their fellow countrymen, and to ensure the future is bright for the kids of people they've never met before.

North Korea isn't as much nationalism and more just a dictator forcing worship of himself and the thing that grants him power(With strict punishments for disagreeing). If you want to see nationalism, look at Japan instead.
Nationalism is love for one's own country and countrymen. Not hatred for those outside of the country. The term for that is 'globalism'

Inspiring people to work together with people they don't know is multiculturalism. Nationalism is putting yourself and your culture above any others. Who is "_____" is a constant nationalist question. "Who is a American, certainly not those filthy foreigners" for example. Russia's surge in nationalism causes incidents like this

http://asbarez.com/53803/kocharian-cond ... in-russia/
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 05794.html
https://www.theguardian.com/football/bl ... -cup-hosts
http://english.vov.vn/society/another-v ... 101000.vov
http://www.css.ethz.ch/en/services.html?id=95638
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340 ... 07,00.html
http://www.sova-center.ru/racism-xenoph ... 03/d12875/



North Korea isn't held together by fear, they are held together by the belief that everyone else is horrible.

Globalism has nothing to do with hatred. It has to do with exchanging goods and culture between countries. Why is it good? I can give you several examples but one of the most prominent one is that you can get goods from almost any country by means of airline. Every airline uses a international language, they know what plane is flying, what it is carrying and when it is due to arrive. They can direct airplanes to each runway and deal with emergencies faster and quicker using international language and callsigns.

Nationalism is like capitalism, a healthy self interest makes everyone's lives better. If every country was run by people looking out for their country's best interests then the world would be perfect.

Unfortunately politics is a hotbed for corruption and people looking to sell their country's well-being out to the highest bidder.

If you look after your owns self interest then you would always only do the bare minimum for everyone else. Sewers, public infrastructure and public works would go by the wayside for those who could not afford them (meaning the average person.) The constant argument of unrestrained capitalism is "If I didn't do it someone else would".

"If I didn't dump waste in the lake then it would cut into our profits. Besides I don't care about anyone else. Other companies do the same thing so why worry about it? "

Putting your country first is not a bad thing, its Realpolitik. As a citizen I want my country to do their best for me and mine. The CEO of burger king would find himself without a job if he spent all his time making Jack in the Box and Carls Junior profitable at the expense of his own company.

Realpolitik is flexible and bendable. Realpolitik is about achieving your goals and bending your pride. Nationalism is absolute. Nationalism is achieving your goals without comprimise. Its the opposite of Realpolitik (for example Nixon made deals with China despite their ideological differences. This is realpolitik.

In your scenario :The idea of having standards for burgers should not interfere in what the CEO of burger king does. Just because Jack in the Box and Carl's junior decides use contaminated beef does not mean that Burger King should do so to make a profit.

[ShadowDimentio]

Inspiring people to work together with people they don't know is multiculturalism. Nationalism is putting yourself and your culture above any others. Who is "_____" is a constant nationalist question. "Who is a American, certainly not those filthy foreigners" for example. Russia's surge in nationalism causes incidents like this

>Nationalism isn't why people work together

Yes it is you fool. Take the millitary for example. There are only three ways you get people to go to war: Force them to by fear of the consequences if they don't (North Korea, old China), Nationalist pride and wanting to protect what's yours (Western world), or paying them to go to war (Mercenaries).

Fear only sorta works because your people will despise you and if you fuck up a millitary coup will be the least of your worries.
Nationalism works because the people that believe in it are prepared to die for their country if they need to.
Mercenaries never work because sure they'll fight for you, but if the enemy offers them more then you just lost everything.

Conflating nationalism with xenophobia is stupid. You can love your country without hating everyone else.

[starmute]

Inspiring people to work together with people they don't know is multiculturalism. Nationalism is putting yourself and your culture above any others. Who is "_____" is a constant nationalist question. "Who is a American, certainly not those filthy foreigners" for example. Russia's surge in nationalism causes incidents like this

>Nationalism isn't why people work together

Yes it is you fool. Take the millitary for example. There are only three ways you get people to go to war: Force them to by fear of the consequences if they don't (North Korea, old China), Nationalist pride and wanting to protect what's yours (Western world), or paying them to go to war (Mercenaries).

Fear only sorta works because your people will despise you and if you fuck up a millitary coup will be the least of your worries.
Nationalism works because the people that believe in it are prepared to die for their country if they need to.
Mercenaries never work because sure they'll fight for you, but if the enemy offers them more then you just lost everything.

Conflating nationalism with xenophobia is stupid. You can love your country without hating everyone else.

Nationalism isn't just about "fighting wars". Nationalism is about defining who is and who isn't in a culture. It says "This is what my culture believes in, if you disagree then you aren't one of us".

Also there are TONS of reasons to be fighting in a war. They vary from person to person. Some people are ideologues where they believe it is the "free world" vs everyone else, or fighting for communism, fighting for independence or other ideas. Some people do it because they swore a oath. Some people do it because its their profession. However you are right in one regard nationalism is a reason to fight.

[XSI]

I'm being baited and trolled here, right?
What are you even talking about? Multiculturalism is specifically multiple cultures being in the same place or organisation. It has nothing to do with working together with people they don't know, building a future or otherwise inspiring people. It is purely a cultural thing.

Yes, Russia has issues like that, and yes, nationalism can go too far and the closed-minded will be violent about it. Just as they would be with anything else- Religion, tribal chief, even fucking sports. It all leads to riots and at times it has led to lynching. But again then look at Japan. They don't have attacks like that(Only minor incidents in which foreigners were made to feel 'unwelcome' as far as I know). And once again, they also don't have a dictator. Nationalism can be used as a tool for a dictator to control people, and of course they use that tool because they're dictators. This does not mean nationalism is the problem. This means that there's someone being an asshole and using it to draw attention away from the real problems. (See also Argentine using nationalism/Falklands to distract from massive internal problems)

North Korea isn't held together by fear, they are held together by the belief that everyone else is horrible.

Right, which is why the North Korean olympics teams often have their families placed in or near government compounds to ensure they actually come back home after going out to represent NK. Totally not fear.

Multiculturalism is probably the worst thing to happen to the world since the plague and consistently leads to tensions, racial hatred, violence, reduced feeling of belonging to a community, and so on. I have yet to see a single positive effect from it other than 'increases the variety of available food', which does not require multiculturalism.

Globalism is a thing with good and bad to it, however the way it happens to go in real life, rather than any textbook or theory is that the poor of third world nations are worked 16 hours or more a day, toxic waste is dumped off the coast of africa and the main exports to these underdeveloped countries are weapons and ammo. Shell is paying African politicians directly and using leaking pipes to pipe out the oil without a cent for the locals. Globalism as a whole has turned out to be a negative for the majority of people, with only a few in the west and the rich everywhere profiting from it. It is good to cooperate, but the side effects of cooperation without thinking about these things are a messed up world. It needs to be controlled or we're heading for a really bad time for the majority of people out there.

Edit for some more

Nationalism isn't just about "fighting wars". Nationalism is about defining who is and who isn't in a culture. It says "This is what my culture believes in, if you disagree then you aren't one of us".

Nationalism is about the nation, not the culture. Multiple cultures can fit in a nation, and this is common pretty much everywhere. Only where a culture has been consistently been neglected or abused by its neighbors do they attempt to form an independent nation.

[starmute]

I'm being baited and trolled here, right?
What are you even talking about? Multiculturalism is specifically multiple cultures being in the same place or organisation. It has nothing to do with working together with people they don't know, building a future or otherwise inspiring people. It is purely a cultural thing.

Yes, Russia has issues like that, and yes, nationalism can go too far and the closed-minded will be violent about it. Just as they would be with anything else- Religion, tribal chief, even fucking sports. It all leads to riots and at times it has led to lynching. But again then look at Japan. They don't have attacks like that(Only minor incidents in which foreigners were made to feel 'unwelcome' as far as I know). And once again, they also don't have a dictator. Nationalism can be used as a tool for a dictator to control people, and of course they use that tool because they're dictators. This does not mean nationalism is the problem. This means that there's someone being an asshole and using it to draw attention away from the real problems. (See also Argentine using nationalism/Falklands to distract from massive internal problems)

You do realize that modern Japan was only made after america forced them to lay down their arms and is generally making them be a peaceful society. Everything became remade due to the Japanese miracle and they became more accepting of foreigners and other cultures. Before that... well I don't need to read you a world war 2 history book. Japan participates in the global community and while it has its own culture it is accepting and makes other countries practices it's own.

Right, which is why the North Korean olympics teams often have their families placed in or near government compounds to ensure they actually come back home after going out to represent NK. Totally not fear.

Multiculturalism is probably the worst thing to happen to the world since the plague and consistently leads to tensions, racial hatred, violence, reduced feeling of belonging to a community, and so on. I have yet to see a single positive effect from it other than 'increases the variety of available food', which does not require multiculturalism.

Globalism is a thing with good and bad to it, however the way it happens to go in real life, rather than any textbook or theory is that the poor of third world nations are worked 16 hours or more a day, toxic waste is dumped off the coast of africa and the main exports to these underdeveloped countries are weapons and ammo. Shell is paying African politicians directly and using leaking pipes to pipe out the oil without a cent for the locals. Globalism as a whole has turned out to be a negative for the majority of people, with only a few in the west and the rich everywhere profiting from it. It is good to cooperate, but the side effects of cooperation without thinking about these things are a messed up world. It needs to be controlled or we're heading for a really bad time for the majority of people out there.

They have minders. They not only use the carrot but they use the stick. It works in NK culture.

Globalism and multiculturalism go hand in hand. Do you want that flat screen tv? Well the firm that makes it is based in South Korea and they have offices in New York. People fly back and forth. Now the area is connected and you get SK immigrants.

Shell pays politicians directly? Wow its like nothing like that happens here! Its happened in the past too, in fact bribes from merchants have happened since... well antiquity. The rich are exploiting the poor? Its not like that hasn't happened either. Oh wait.. It has. The fact is that the world is getting "smaller". We can fly from New York to New Delli in a day when before it would have taken a lifetime. Everyone's standard of living will be brought up but the cost of that will also be brought up. If capitalism is going to be the system we use then there will always be rich and always be poor people.

Nationalism is about the nation, not the culture. Multiple cultures can fit in a nation, and this is common pretty much everywhere. Only where a culture has been consistently been neglected or abused by its neighbors do they attempt to form an independent nation.

Tell that to the Kurds in Turkey or the Uzbeks in China. The Georgians in Russia. Nationalism is about "who is in the culture". The United States prides itself on saying "everyone" but if you have ever read your history books there are other countries besides the US who say "Germany is for Germans" ,"Italy for Italians" for example Mussolini ran on a campaign of "Italy First" and Italian Nationalism.

[ShadowDimentio]

Shocking-- ideological tools can go too far!

[starmute]

Shocking-- ideological tools can go too far!

Nationalism is by its default "Us against them"

"I am American and I take pride in that, everyone else is inferior and I shall treat them as adversaries, competitors and others to be exploited".

Its something we need to move on from. Its closed minded and doesn't look at the big picture.

[ShadowDimentio]

[citation needed]

[Super Aggro Crag]

There's like some kind of unwritten rule that everyone on this forum with an anime girl avatar is gonna come in this thread and try to get us to accept sharia law

[starmute]

[citation needed]

Look at history. Read up on the Monroe doctrine and the Black ships.

I mean we have a whole division of the CIA of that protects American business interests overseas. Its obvious if you read any history....

There's like some kind of unwritten rule that everyone on this forum with an anime girl avatar is gonna come in this thread and try to get us to accept sharia law

Its like you can never form a coherent argument so you attack the writer.


Edit

Yeah man nationalism is so bad in America though, nobody ever wants to immigrate here and our nationalist president is constantly trying to pick a fight with everyone, like the Russians and Euros and Brits.

Not as bad as in other countries. However it has been getting slowly worse.

[ShadowDimentio]

Yeah man nationalism is so bad in America though, nobody ever wants to immigrate here because you'll get lynched and our nationalist president is constantly trying to pick a fight with everyone, like the Russians and Euros and Brits.

[Malkevin]

European Culture




African Culture




Yep, totally equal Starmute.
Can't wait for them to enrich us with their cannibalism and raping virgin girls to cure aids.

[XSI]

You do realize that modern Japan was only made after america forced them to lay down their arms and is generally making them be a peaceful society. Everything became remade due to the Japanese miracle and they became more accepting of foreigners and other cultures. Before that... well I don't need to read you a world war 2 history book. Japan participates in the global community and while it has its own culture it is accepting and makes other countries practices it's own.

Yes, they weren't always like that. But these days they do happen to have both nationalism and aren't violent. This is the ideal

Globalism and multiculturalism go hand in hand. Do you want that flat screen tv? Well the firm that makes it is based in South Korea and they have offices in New York. People fly back and forth. Now the area is connected and you get SK immigrants.

Shell pays politicians directly? Wow its like nothing like that happens here! Its happened in the past too, in fact bribes from merchants have happened since... well antiquity. The rich are exploiting the poor? Its not like that hasn't happened either. Oh wait.. It has. The fact is that the world is getting "smaller". We can fly from New York to New Delli in a day when before it would have taken a lifetime. Everyone's standard of living will be brought up but the cost of that will also be brought up. If capitalism is going to be the system we use then there will always be rich and always be poor people.

Yeah, bribes happen. Always have happened, always will happen. But hey, the standard of living for the people who lived at the places with leaky pipelines and toxic waste dumps sure haven't gone up. Globalism may help the standard of living in the west and east asia, but it sure doesn't help the rest of the world. What does help them is the technological advances making things more affordable so that they too can have the things we've made in the west, but that's not so much globalism, and more just efficient production and technology progressing.

On the first bit- Not how it works. You do not need to accept immigration to have cooperation on economic or national scale. But if you do have immigration you need assimilation. Otherwise there is no reason for these people to migrate in the first place (Assuming of course that they are immigrating with good intentions, and not immigrating so they can abuse your welfare system). Sure, you don't need to have a 100% assimilation to have it work, but they need to at least assimilate enough to function in the new country- They'd learn the language, understand the values and accept them, and live WITH the people in the country, not in an enclave practically separate from the country they moved to.

Tell that to the Kurds in Turkey or the Uzbeks in China. The Georgians in Russia. Nationalism is about "who is in the culture". The United States prides itself on saying "everyone" but if you have ever read your history books there are other countries besides the US who say "Germany is for Germans" ,"Italy for Italians" for example Mussolini ran on a campaign of "Italy First" and Italian Nationalism.

Exactly what I meant. The kurds, uzbeks, Georgians and so on? Abused and/or neglected by the primary culture(s). So they seek to be an independent nation.
"Italy for Italians" includes many cultures- Lombardian, Milanese, Sicilian, and so on. As does "Germany for Germans" include multiple Germanic cultures. It does not however include Ethiopians or Brazilians- Unless they actively assimilate.
However, the thing with a nation is that it has something holding these multiple cultures together, notable in history it was things like language and royalty. These days, it is values(Free speech, etc), religion (Middle Eastern nations), or language(Pretty much everywhere). These can be shared across multiple cultures, and these cultures can then live together in a single nation without any problems.

The problem happens when a culture is abused or denied, generally after military conquest(Kurds, etc), or immigrants refuse to assimilate and actively separate themselves, thus drawing the scorn of the others in the country (Almost everywhere in Europe, and large parts of the USA)

[starmute]

Yep, totally equal Starmute.
Can't wait for them to enrich us with their cannibalism and raping virgin girls to cure aids.

Use spoilers if you use images that big.

They already do contribute to you. If you have ever eaten choclate it is most likely its from the INTERNAL DISCUSSIONS Coast area. Diamonds come from the horn and Automobiles from the coast.

[starmute]

Yes, they weren't always like that. But these days they do happen to have both nationalism and aren't violent. This is the ideal

So they have had multiculturalism forced on them. There is a difference between "national identity" and "nationalism" you know? They may have a Japanese national identity but they have accepted American autos, greek yougart, horrible english food, and KFC chicken. They actually made getting KFC into some kind of Christmas thing.

On the first bit- Not how it works. You do not need to accept immigration to have cooperation on economic or national scale. But if you do have immigration you need assimilation. Otherwise there is no reason for these people to migrate in the first place (Assuming of course that they are immigrating with good intentions, and not immigrating so they can abuse your welfare system). Sure, you don't need to have a 100% assimilation to have it work, but they need to at least assimilate enough to function in the new country- They'd learn the language, understand the values and accept them, and live WITH the people in the country, not in an enclave practically separate from the country they moved to.

Yeah that is how it works. Go to any embassy in Russia and you'll learn that while they do speak Russian they primarily speak their own language. People immigrate for jobs, they don't immigrate to be part of another culture.

The problem happens when a culture is abused or denied, generally after military conquest(Kurds, etc), or immigrants refuse to assimilate and actively separate themselves, thus drawing the scorn of the others in the country (Almost everywhere in Europe, and large parts of the USA)

The oppressors say "you aren't assimilating". The oppressed say "we are being abused". And you're forgetting a big part of this. The goverment (which is usually controled by the majority or representing the majority) will make decisions on what is best for the majority. Made a treaty between the US and Indians? Well most of our voters are white settlers so lets break that treaty. Nationalism actively encourages a "us vs them" mentality where it's easy to think of "them" as dirty low down lazy injuns.

[ShadowDimentio]

Japan weren't a problem because they loved their country, they were a problem because they tried to take over the Pacific. Nationalism was only an issue once we started pushing onto their home islands and they blindly fought until their last breath, so be had to nuke two of their cities in an arms display that they were hopelessly outmatched in for them to finally give up.

It's funny, because the US was and still is nearly exactly the same as WW2 era Japan-- at one point the Japs in WW2 considered an invasion of the US, and one of the generals remarked that if they did "there would be a rifle behind every blade of grass".

[XSI]

So they have had multiculturalism forced on them. There is a difference between "national identity" and "nationalism" you know? They may have a Japanese national identity but they have accepted American autos, greek yougart, horrible english food, and KFC chicken. They actually made getting KFC into some kind of Christmas thing.

At this point I am fairly sure I'm being trolled, Japan is not a multicultural place. They have noticed that the americans defeated them in war, and thus were more effective and better at things. This led to a drive to improve themselves by looking at the ones that defeated them. In all aspects, and integrating what they thought of as better things into their own culture. All, of course, along with an 'exotic' factor, which is the same factor as why you can see people in the west with random kanji tattoos.

Yeah that is how it works. Go to any embassy in Russia and you'll learn that while they do speak Russian they primarily speak their own language. People immigrate for jobs, they don't immigrate to be part of another culture.

That's not immigration. Immigration is moving there to stay- It includes becoming a citizen and all the things it implies. Going somewhere for work is a thing, and generally works through visas and temporary stays.

The oppressors say "you aren't assimilating". The oppressed say "we are being abused". And you're forgetting a big part of this. The goverment (which is usually controled by the majority or representing the majority) will make decisions on what is best for the majority. Made a treaty between the US and Indians? Well most of our voters are white settlers so lets break that treaty. Nationalism actively encourages a "us vs them" mentality where it's easy to think of "them" as dirty low down lazy injuns.

It's not reasonable to expect assimilation after conquering a people militarily. But it is reasonable to expect it when they willingly move to your country. Settlers and Indians is not a nationalism thing either, that was just colonialism and how people saw lots of land they could easily get for small investments of military force, in a time period where this was considered pretty acceptable. Not saying it was morally a good thing, just saying it isn't nationalism to do that, just colonialism.
Nationalism is not a negative thing. But it can be used for negative purposes by those who mean harm, just like every other idea.

Japan weren't a problem because they loved their country, they were a problem because they tried to take over the Pacific. Nationalism was only an issue once we started pushing onto their home islands and they blindly fought until their last breath, so be had to nuke two of their cities in an arms display that they were hopelessly outmatched in for them to finally give up.

And they would have fought till there wasn't a single Japanese soldier left too, were it not for the emperor wisely deciding to surrender in order to save the nation.
He was already willing to surrender before the nukes, but still had some terms to it. The nukes meant that those terms were off the table and just anything the US wanted would go.

Probably best to have that, really. Otherwise the USSR would have tried to get a piece of Japan like they got off Korea.

[ShadowDimentio]

Yeah I don't know what you're smoking if you think Japland is at all welcoming of foreigners or multicultural in the slightest. They won't lynch you, but you'll definitely get a very cold reception.

[Super Aggro Crag]

Starmute must be destroyed.

[D&B]

Lmao starmute have you never heard of the foreign tax in Japan?

[InsaneHyena]

Crag is very rude, but also very right.

[Drynwyn]

Starmute makes a legitimate point.

But I think the major point of disagreement here is the definition of "nationalism". It's a fraught word, and has both a geopolitical meaning, and a cultural meaning. So I'll clarify the extent to which I agree with Starmute's points:

There is an appropriate level of national self interest ("nationalism") for nations to engage in with regards to their policymaking, just like there is an appropriate level of personal self interest for people to engage in. Nations are not people, and these levels are likely different for nations and people. I believe that the level of national self encouraged by Trump is inappropriately high, but am quite willing to acknowledge the disagreement of many other people as reasonable, and Trump has in fact made several moves pertaining to this policy that I agree with (such as killing the TPP). Note that this only covers international policy- I have much deeper disagreements with Trump's proposed domestic policies, but as those policies are not ideologically contingent upon nationalism, I choose not to detail them here.

However, their exists independent of the degree of national self-interest engaged in as part of global politics "cultural nationalism". This encourages a unified national identity enforced by socioeconomic penalties for those who deviate from the perceived identity and socioeconomic advantages for those who conform. I firmly believe that Trump's policies reflect an attitude that is extremely mistrustful of deviation from cultural norms, and believe that this attitude and the policies that spring from it are harmful when taken to the degree that Trump espouses them.

I also believe that Trump's expressed policy plans favor corporate interests over individual interests, but acknowledge that this is independent of his nationalist leanings.

[Cik]

There is nothing wrong with nationalism

Nationalism leads to a sense of superiority. We forget about what is good for our species and focus on what is good for our country. North Korea is the apex of nationalism, it's people hoodwinked into hating the outside world so much that they hurt their own.

Spoiler:

what is good for the species is immaterial as long as there is one guy on the planet that's only looking out for himself. besides, stating that these are two conflicting ideals doesn't really make any sense.

>what is good for the planet
>a clean, supportive environment, a reasonable limit on emissions of various harmful substances, a focus on renewables where possible etc.
>what's good for the nation
>long term, all of those things

you can always sacrifice long-term gain for short-term gain if you want, but this generally is against the interests of the nation. as long as you're on planet earth the interests of the earth are the interests of the nation, because one relies on the other to survive.

environmentalism is an aspect of nationalism. it's actually the globalists that love offshoring all of their horrible pollution to places without human rights that will allow their people to be mercilessly exploited to line their own filthy pockets. see: china

a real nationalistic regime would never allow such disgusting behavior on the part of it's "servants" they should all face the gallows.

[starmute]

Quick note. I'm not going to post here about this anymore since I feel like Crag wants to just name call (and apparently make assumptions on my gender?) which doesn't contribute to the discussion so I'll step down to cause less drama. Feel free to message me if you want my opinion on this further.

[Screemonster]

Feel free to message me if you want my opinion on this further.

> implying

[Super Aggro Crag]

Quick note. I'm not going to post here about this anymore since I feel like Crag wants to just name call (and apparently make assumptions on my gender?) which doesn't contribute to the discussion so I'll step down to cause less drama. Feel free to message me if you want my opinion on this further.

:^) this means i am the winner

[InsaneHyena]

Quick note. I'm not going to post here about this anymore since I feel like Crag wants to just name call (and apparently make assumptions on my gender?) which doesn't contribute to the discussion so I'll step down to cause less drama. Feel free to message me if you want my opinion on this further.

[Malkevin]

In lighter news, JoJo bows: The tween craze being banned from a classroom near you

Another [mother on mumsnet] claims her daughter, 10, "spent ALL her Christmas and birthday money - over £100" on bows.
"I'm tempted to chop them to pieces in the middle of the night and claim ignorance," she adds.

>let their not even teen child spend money without them there
>let their not even teen child hold £100 without them there

Isn't the world grand when a 13 year old girl has almost 4 million subs on yootoob and is encouraging 10 year old girls on the opposite side of the pond to spend all their money they got instead of presents on their pop idol's fashion. Also holy frickin' bollocks I hope those earrings on her are some kind of clip on because I imagine it's hard enough to start an internet life at that age without being pushed for piercings.

JoJo sells a line of bows at Claire's Accessories, a chain popular with tweens in Britain as well as the US, which has been available since last May.
Several independent retailers have also sprung up with imitation bows.

>>>imitation bows
Oh no, not the rolex iPhone clip on cloth product now has counterfeits.


inb4 is that a jojo reference???

I have no idea wtf you are on about because I don't watch videos by jail bait on the internet, you perv

[Screemonster]

basically it's mumsnet screeching about REEEEEEEEEEEEEEE PEOPLE ARE DOING THINGS THEY ENJOY I DON'T LIKE IT BAN THESE THINGS ANYTHING BUT EXPECTING US TO CONTROL OUR OWN FUCKING OFFSPRING WE NEED SOMEONE IN AUTHORITY TO BAN THEM FOR US

[InsaneHyena]

Turns out, Obama wiretapped Trump before the election. Thoughts?

[Drynwyn]

Turns out, Obama wiretapped Trump before the election. Thoughts?

There's no actual evidence of this so far, just an accusation.

[InsaneHyena]

There's also no evidence of Jeff Sessions doing anything wrong, but here we are.

[ShadowDimentio]

Obamagate coming soon to a country near you.

[danno]

i piss my pants

edit: Oh my god, thank you so much for the digg Gold.

[InsaneHyena]

Shoo, back to NTR hut, low effort shitposter

[cedarbridge]

Obamagate coming soon to a country near you.

This is going to put a real damper on Obongo's "My Brother's Keeper" lobbying operation.

[ShadowDimentio]

Obamagate coming soon to a country near you.

This is going to put a real damper on Obongo's "My Brother's Keeper" lobbying operation.

Explain

[cedarbridge]

Obamagate coming soon to a country near you.

This is going to put a real damper on Obongo's "My Brother's Keeper" lobbying operation.

Explain

https://obamawhitehouse.archives.gov/node/279811

Like many past presidents, Obama announced his plan to establish a Clinton Foundation/Bush Foundation "thing" called My Brother's Keeper. However, the functional purpose of MBK is to function as a lobbying platform to keep him in DC. If he's involved in allegations of impropriety related to the current administration, you can bet his org is getting a weather eye too.

[ShadowDimentio]

Huh. Makes sense, but fuck me is My Brother's Keeper a god awful name for a lobbying organization. Also, what imbecile would want to keep Obama in DC? Guy barely did anything for eight years as president.

[cedarbridge]

Huh. Makes sense, but fuck me is My Brother's Keeper a god awful name for a lobbying organization. Also, what imbecile would want to keep Obama in DC? Guy barely did anything for eight years as president.

>founded by Obama
Activates the almonds.

[Super Aggro Crag]

Its a fund just to keep Malik Obama from shitposting about anime on twitter

[bandit]

gonna need some more sourcing on this besides trump drunk-tweeting at 3:35 am friday night

[Screemonster]

Huh. Makes sense, but fuck me is My Brother's Keeper a god awful name for a lobbying organization. Also, what imbecile would want to keep Obama in DC? Guy barely did anything for eight years as president.

keeping a brother in DC