jackrip peanut

[sinfulbliss]

Bottom post of the previous page:

I DONT CARE IM MAKING ANOTHER ONE MORE POWER

is korol really gone though? he had more hours than all the green people here combined
it shouldnt be allowed to perma people that ancient... its like going into a museum and shattering a piece of art
even if the piece of art is one of those shitty "abstract" paintings which is just a shart on a canvas
its been there since 1800 it literally can't be wrong. if it doesn't belong there WHAT EVEN DOES?

but really we talkin like...forever forever?
i know its hush hush but he better have killed a fuckin baby

domo arigato mr. roboto... we will cherish the times :'(

[Rohen_Tahir]

I very much agree this wasn't dox, but jackrip thought it was, thought they were doxxing somebody,

We should agree that what matters in determining punishment is what they were doing, not what they thought they were doing. If Jackrip truly thought he was doxxing, then he simply has an incorrect understanding of what doxxing is. But that's neither here nor there.

and thought it was acceptable to blame said person for it, call it their fault, and laugh at the entire situation.

I agree that's a shitty thing to do and reflects poorly on one's character, but in the context of what we are now calling a "joke," it is understandable they would laugh in the situation, notwithstanding the harmfulness of said joke.

if you expose your cavalier disregard in the matters of doxxing to us, we won't hesitate to remove you from the community

I understand this sentiment - if someone is cavalier about it, there is a chance they may actually be a doxer. Joking about doxxing is against the rules because people who don't take doxxing seriously enough, are at a higher risk of doxxing someone. So they are banned to prevent a potential dox. (Correct me if the motive behind the rule is different.)

If that's the case, then the question is simply whether Jackrip is at risk for actually doxxing someone due to his cavalier attitude about it. I don't believe we have reason to believe that's the case. He has been a part of the community for several years now, and has never to my knowledge run into issues with doxxing, or been rumored to have been a doxer. Pose the question to yourself honestly, and you'll likely agree Jackrip wouldn't be a dox risk in the future if he were back in the community.

That said, all bans are a form of punishment. Punishment is used for two purposes: 1) retribution, or 2) getting rid of a behavior. For the latter, ban lengths vary according to how long that might take. More serious offenses imply a more problematic behavior in the offender, which take longer punishments to correct. If Jackrip isn't at a risk of doxxing someone in the future, then there is no behavior to get rid of, so he would not need to be punished according to (2).

Punishment also has an aspect of retribution, though. It's not only to rid the community of the behavior, but to get justice for whoever was wronged. For example: if someone murders my parents because of a grudge they had against them, they may very well not be at risk for murdering in the future. Nevertheless, they should be punished to enact justice for those wronged. That is retribution. It's the same reason I am banned - it is retribution for those I wronged through multikeying.

Jackrip wronged [REDACTED] through his joke about doxxing. I do not know how much damage was done as that is private information. Having to delete one's digg account is significant - I've had one of my longtime forum accounts deleted before and it causes a lot of grief. I'm not sure about what other damage happened, but given the tenor of the ban, I don't believe it was based on retribution, since not a whole lot of personal damage occurred according to my limited knowledge of the situation.

The second reason to ban besides "to punish" is if a player is determined to be a bad addition to the community as a whole. Most bans are in-game, so the "community as a whole" refers to the community of the server itself on BYOND. Jackrip was an amazing addition to the in-game community as a whole, and most players who remember him from the past few years would wholeheartedly agree. He added life to the servers and things often transpired around him. Some people disliked him because he murderboned as an antag, but this is an invalid reason and should be disregarded. He seemed to behave in the Discord community as well. The only place he messed up was in a private Discord off the tg-community-circle. So despite being good additions to most facets of the community, he was banned for what was, in the end, some toxic behavior on a private discord (if my understanding is right).

I don't believe they would be a risk of doing this again, simply because one does not blow a game they've invested 6+ years and 4000+ hours into, over a really bad joke. Given his commitment to the game previously, I imagine they regret it immensely, and likely would not come near such behavior again. But before the regret sets in, anger probably is the first response - anger over the people who caused them the grief of being banned from the place they invested so much of their life into. Those people are the ones he gave that copypasta to, originally. I am sure they will cool off, if they haven't already, and the anger will be mixed with regret, before fully transforming into regret.

For these reasons, it does not make sense to me to keep Jackrip blacklisted. The right thing would be to give them a ban that punishes them proportional to the damage they caused the victim involved. If that wasn't significant, then the ban should not be significant - and a blacklist is very significant. I would encourage MSO and the headmins to consider allowing them to appeal the blacklist after a year, if any of the points I have made resonate with you.

can I get a tldr, you need an editor.

TLDR:

Having to delete one's digg account is significant - I've had one of my longtime forum accounts deleted before and it causes a lot of grief.

[Screemonster]

I agree that's a shitty thing to do and reflects poorly on one's character

snipping everything else out but why should everyone be forced to hang around with someone of such evidently poor character

[Jonathan Gupta]

I agree that's a shitty thing to do and reflects poorly on one's character

snipping everything else out but why should everyone be forced to hang around with someone of such evidently poor character

everybody hangs out with me on forums... But hey I agree with this post.

[Fikou]

That's because the admin/headmins specifically left out the entire conversation and only showed like 3 messages.. Including some shitty stuff by the other party... Teehee

[saprasam]

god i find it hilarious how there's a literal admin gestapo

[Rohen_Tahir]

god i find it hilarious how there's a literal admin gestapo

What

[Naloac]

god i find it hilarious how there's a literal admin gestapo

Do tell me more Herr Saprasam.

[cacogen]

god i find it hilarious how there's a literal admin gestapo

>The Geheime Staatspolizei ( transl. Secret State Police), abbreviated Gestapo was the official secret police of Nazi Germany and in German-occupied Europe.

it's pretty fucking cool that we have this now

[sinfulbliss]

I agree that's a shitty thing to do and reflects poorly on one's character

snipping everything else out but why should everyone be forced to hang around with someone of such evidently poor character

Well ya shouldn't, no one should. But being allowed in the community =/= being forced to hangout with the person in the community.

Also I think there are two separate characters. There's you as a person, and your personal character, and then your IC character. Theoretically you could be a mass murderer IRL and play CMO every round and save like, everyone's ass and are loved by everyone. Or vice-versa. Seems weird to ban IC for conduct that is very, very far separated from the game, or banned from the Discord community for conduct that's related to the game. The whole "blacklist" thing doesn't make sense to me beyond as a "fuck you get out" emotional sort of response. Which I wouldn't blame the headmins for casting after the scare they probably had to deal with for a while there.

But in retrospect maybe it could be softened, reasonably speaking.

@Naloac I tried to think of a way to tl;dr it but I literally couldn't think of a way that wouldn't weaken the argument significantly.

[Rohen_Tahir]

I agree that's a shitty thing to do and reflects poorly on one's character

snipping everything else out but why should everyone be forced to hang around with someone of such evidently poor character

Well ya shouldn't, no one should. But being allowed in the community =/= being forced to hangout with the person in the community.

Also I think there are two separate characters. There's you as a person, and your personal character, and then your IC character. Theoretically you could be a mass murderer IRL and play CMO every round and save like, everyone's ass and are loved by everyone. Or vice-versa. Seems weird to ban IC for conduct that is very, very far separated from the game, or banned from the Discord community for conduct that's related to the game. The whole "blacklist" thing doesn't make sense to me beyond as a "fuck you get out" emotional sort of response. Which I wouldn't blame the headmins for casting after the scare they probably had to deal with for a while there.

But in retrospect maybe it could be softened, reasonably speaking.

@Naloac I tried to think of a way to tl;dr it but I literally couldn't think of a way that wouldn't weaken the argument significantly.

chuck's feed and seed

[sinfulbliss]

chuck's feed and seed

Dunno what this means but it sounds insulting for some reason.

gib tl;dr

Ok I tried my very best to tl;dr it, it's still kinda long though but I tried ok.

3 reasons to ban someone:

1) Punishment - to fix a behavior for REFORM
2) Punishment - as retribution for JUSTICE
3) Bad addition to community as a whole

1) IS THE PUNISHMENT FOR REFORM?: We should agree Jackrip isn't at risk for doxxing someone in the future. We also should agree he isn't at risk for joking about it in the future: someone who invested 4000+ hours and 6 years of life into a game wouldn't throw it all away for a bad joke again now that they know this can happen.

2) IS THE PUNISHMENT FOR RETRIBUTION?: The grief caused to my knowledge was: deleted digg acc, stress, some fear, annoyance, and a degree of personal damage. Jackrip should be punished to make up for this by having to experience the grief of being banned. But being blacklisted "forever" from a community they invested so much into is, in my opinion, disproportionate for the grief they caused. So if the punishment is for retribution, a blacklist is over and above what is proportional for retribution.

3) ARE THEY JUST A BAD ADDITION TO THE COMMUNITY?: Jackrip is a good addition to the community as a whole. IC they are a very experienced player with lots of knowledge to offer. When they are antag they advance the round towards chaos in a way that gets people excited/invested into the game, and when they aren't they often are the source of lots of fun times and experiences. They also behave on the Discord from what I've seen. So the punishment isn't for (3), if this is agreed.

I would encourage MSO and the headmins to consider allowing them to appeal the blacklist after a year, if any of the points I have made resonate with you.

[oranges]

I would encourage you to remove your tongue from jackrips anus.

[NoxVS]

We should agree Jackrip isn't at risk for doxxing someone in the future. We also should agree he isn't at risk for joking about it in the future: someone who invested 4000+ hours and 6 years of life into a game wouldn't throw it all away for a bad joke again now that they know this can happen.

ok well you murdered 27 people but now that we caught you we know you wouldn't throw your life away to do it again, so i guess im just gonna let you go

[BONERMASTER]

The circumstances concerning this addition to the blacklist are not fully disclosed to the public, if you wish to challenge the plea of the prosecution you are required to have access to all the evidence that they are using. I am against that in this case however, due to the scope of the violation at hand compared to being excluded from an online game. Disclosing private information to an online audience is a real crime, in the United States it can even be considered a federal offense under certain circumstances:

Spoiler:

18 U.S. Code § 2261A - Stalking

Whoever—

(2) with the intent to kill, injure, harass, intimidate, or place under surveillance with intent to kill, injure, harass, or intimidate another person, uses the mail, any interactive computer service or electronic communication service or electronic communication system of interstate commerce, or any other facility of interstate or foreign commerce to engage in a course of conduct that—
(A) places that person in reasonable fear of the death of or serious bodily injury to a person, a pet, a service animal, an emotional support animal, or a horse described in clause (i), (ii), (iii), or (iv) of paragraph (1)(A); or
(B) causes, attempts to cause, or would be reasonably expected to cause substantial emotional distress to a person described in clause (i), (ii), or (iii) of paragraph (1)(A),

shall be punished as provided in section 2261(b) or section 2261B, as the case may be.

Your motivation to re-open this case is admirable, however, it would be strongly recommended to weigh the violation at hand against the benefit of continuing to play this online game, to recall that the host himself decreed this and is by all accounts a "reasonable person", to consider the known facts and the safety of this game community.


With warm regards
-BONERMASTER

[NoxVS]

also

They also behave on the Discord from what I've seen

considering the ban was due to behavior on discord i think it is safe to assume they have, in fact, not behaved on the discord

[TheFinalPotato]

Jackrip is a good addition to the community as a whole. IC they are a very experienced player with lots of knowledge to offer. When they are antag they advance the round towards chaos in a way that gets people excited/invested into the game, and when they aren't they often are the source of lots of fun times and experiences. They also behave on the Discord from what I've seen. So the punishment isn't for (3), if this is agreed.

sus

I would encourage MSO and the headmins to consider allowing them to appeal the blacklist after a year, if any of the points I have made resonate with you.

That sounds more like a permaban to me, tho I guess it is technically possible to appeal a blacklist

[Agux909]

The circumstances concerning this addition to the blacklist are not fully disclosed to the public, if you wish to challenge the plea of the prosecution you are required to have access to all the evidence that they are using. I am against that in this case however, due to the scope of the violation at hand compared to being excluded from an online game. Disclosing private information to an online audience is a real crime, in the United States it can even be considered a federal offense under certain circumstances:

Spoiler:

18 U.S. Code § 2261A - Stalking

Whoever—

(2) with the intent to kill, injure, harass, intimidate, or place under surveillance with intent to kill, injure, harass, or intimidate another person, uses the mail, any interactive computer service or electronic communication service or electronic communication system of interstate commerce, or any other facility of interstate or foreign commerce to engage in a course of conduct that—
(A) places that person in reasonable fear of the death of or serious bodily injury to a person, a pet, a service animal, an emotional support animal, or a horse described in clause (i), (ii), (iii), or (iv) of paragraph (1)(A); or
(B) causes, attempts to cause, or would be reasonably expected to cause substantial emotional distress to a person described in clause (i), (ii), or (iii) of paragraph (1)(A),

shall be punished as provided in section 2261(b) or section 2261B, as the case may be.

Your motivation to re-open this case is admirable, however, it would be strongly recommended to weigh the violation at hand against the benefit of continuing to play this online game, to recall that the host himself decreed this and is by all accounts a "reasonable person", to consider the known facts and the safety of this game community.


With warm regards
-BONERMASTER

Can we have you at Sybil? Once in a while at least?

[Jonathan Gupta]

The circumstances concerning this addition to the blacklist are not fully disclosed to the public, if you wish to challenge the plea of the prosecution you are required to have access to all the evidence that they are using. I am against that in this case however, due to the scope of the violation at hand compared to being excluded from an online game. Disclosing private information to an online audience is a real crime, in the United States it can even be considered a federal offense under certain circumstances:

Spoiler:

18 U.S. Code § 2261A - Stalking

Whoever—

(2) with the intent to kill, injure, harass, intimidate, or place under surveillance with intent to kill, injure, harass, or intimidate another person, uses the mail, any interactive computer service or electronic communication service or electronic communication system of interstate commerce, or any other facility of interstate or foreign commerce to engage in a course of conduct that—
(A) places that person in reasonable fear of the death of or serious bodily injury to a person, a pet, a service animal, an emotional support animal, or a horse described in clause (i), (ii), (iii), or (iv) of paragraph (1)(A); or
(B) causes, attempts to cause, or would be reasonably expected to cause substantial emotional distress to a person described in clause (i), (ii), or (iii) of paragraph (1)(A),

shall be punished as provided in section 2261(b) or section 2261B, as the case may be.

Your motivation to re-open this case is admirable, however, it would be strongly recommended to weigh the violation at hand against the benefit of continuing to play this online game, to recall that the host himself decreed this and is by all accounts a "reasonable person", to consider the known facts and the safety of this game community.


With warm regards
-BONERMASTER

Can we have you at Sybil? Once in a while at least?

NOBODY AND I MEAN NOBODY WANTS TO GO TO GODAMN SYBIL INSTEAD OF BAGIL!!!!

[Fishimun]

I will approve of your immigration to Terry.

[BONERMASTER]

Can we have you at Sybil? Once in a while at least?

I'd love to, and it just so happens that I have already planned a visit to Sybil on this upcoming weekend! Maybe we will see each other?


With warm regards
-BONERMASTER

[Rohen_Tahir]

chuck's feed and seed

Dunno what this means but it sounds insulting for some reason.

gib tl;dr

Ok I tried my very best to tl;dr it, it's still kinda long though but I tried ok.

3 reasons to ban someone:

1) Punishment - to fix a behavior for REFORM
2) Punishment - as retribution for JUSTICE
3) Bad addition to community as a whole

1) IS THE PUNISHMENT FOR REFORM?: We should agree Jackrip isn't at risk for doxxing someone in the future. We also should agree he isn't at risk for joking about it in the future: someone who invested 4000+ hours and 6 years of life into a game wouldn't throw it all away for a bad joke again now that they know this can happen.

2) IS THE PUNISHMENT FOR RETRIBUTION?: The grief caused to my knowledge was: deleted digg acc, stress, some fear, annoyance, and a degree of personal damage. Jackrip should be punished to make up for this by having to experience the grief of being banned. But being blacklisted "forever" from a community they invested so much into is, in my opinion, disproportionate for the grief they caused. So if the punishment is for retribution, a blacklist is over and above what is proportional for retribution.

3) ARE THEY JUST A BAD ADDITION TO THE COMMUNITY?: Jackrip is a good addition to the community as a whole. IC they are a very experienced player with lots of knowledge to offer. When they are antag they advance the round towards chaos in a way that gets people excited/invested into the game, and when they aren't they often are the source of lots of fun times and experiences. They also behave on the Discord from what I've seen. So the punishment isn't for (3), if this is agreed.

I would encourage MSO and the headmins to consider allowing them to appeal the blacklist after a year, if any of the points I have made resonate with you.

This is too long for a tl:dr
Also, chuck's feed and seed

[sinfulbliss]

if you wish to challenge the plea of the prosecution you are required to have access to all the evidence that they are using.

You are correct neither I, nor any member of the community, is privy to the details that would be necessary to determine an adequate punishment. We have to trust the judgment of MSO and the headmins for that. I also agree they hold their positions for good reason and can be trusted with such decisions. However, in this case, the person wronged was one of their own administration team. As you must be aware, personal affiliations with the victim of a case can cause the judge of the case to levy harsher punishments than they might have had they no relation to the victim:

Spoiler:

Rule 2.11: Disqualification
(A) A judge shall disqualify himself or herself in any proceeding in which the judge’s impartiality* might reasonably be questioned, including but not limited to the following circumstances:
(1) The judge has a personal bias or prejudice concerning a party or a party’s lawyer, or personal knowledge* of facts that are in dispute in the proceeding.

(American Bar Association)

Now, again here we must give the headmins and host the benefit of the doubt. But unlike a court of law, punishment is enacted almost immediately after the offense. Given such a short duration between the offense and the determination of the punishment, and given the personal relationship between the judges and the victim, I believe it is more than likely human passion and emotion have involved themselves in what should be a case judged only by the rule of law. There is no preventing this; however, I have tried to offer an alternate way to determine a fitting length of punishment as a resolution.

ok well you murdered 27 people but now that we caught you we know you wouldn't throw your life away to do it again, so i guess im just gonna let you go

In this case, the criminal would be punished according to both (1), (2), and (3). In most cases one should think they would be at risk for doing it again, clearly, because murdering 27 people implies a lack of care for human life in general. But supposing they aren't at risk for doing it again (e.g., someone who just wanted to get their manifesto publicized and therefore committed mass murder), they would still deserve life behind bars, at the very least, because of (2) retribution.

considering the ban was due to behavior on discord i think it is safe to assume they have, in fact, not behaved on the discord

I would consider the TG community to consist of 1) the IC community in the servers themselves, 2) the forums, and 3) the official discord community. The offense took place outside of the official discord community on a private discord, so we cannot claim that this extends to misbehavior on the official TG discord.

[Rohen_Tahir]

if you wish to challenge the plea of the prosecution you are required to have access to all the evidence that they are using.

You are correct neither I, nor any member of the community, is privy to the details that would be necessary to determine an adequate punishment. We have to trust the judgment of MSO and the headmins for that. I also agree they hold their positions for good reason and can be trusted with such decisions. However, in this case, the person wronged was one of their own administration team. As you must be aware, personal affiliations with the victim of a case can cause the judge of the case to levy harsher punishments than they might have had they no relation to the victim:

Spoiler:

Rule 2.11: Disqualification
(A) A judge shall disqualify himself or herself in any proceeding in which the judge’s impartiality* might reasonably be questioned, including but not limited to the following circumstances:
(1) The judge has a personal bias or prejudice concerning a party or a party’s lawyer, or personal knowledge* of facts that are in dispute in the proceeding.

(American Bar Association)

Now, again here we must give the headmins and host the benefit of the doubt. But unlike a court of law, punishment is enacted almost immediately after the offense. Given such a short duration between the offense and the determination of the punishment, and given the personal relationship between the judges and the victim, I believe it is more than likely human passion and emotion have involved themselves in what should be a case judged only by the rule of law. There is no preventing this; however, I have tried to offer an alternate way to determine a fitting length of punishment as a resolution.

ok well you murdered 27 people but now that we caught you we know you wouldn't throw your life away to do it again, so i guess im just gonna let you go

In this case, the criminal would be punished according to both (1), (2), and (3). In most cases one should think they would be at risk for doing it again, clearly, because murdering 27 people implies a lack of care for human life in general. But supposing they aren't at risk for doing it again (e.g., someone who just wanted to get their manifesto publicized and therefore committed mass murder), they would still deserve life behind bars, at the very least, because of (2) retribution.

considering the ban was due to behavior on discord i think it is safe to assume they have, in fact, not behaved on the discord

I would consider the TG community to consist of 1) the IC community in the servers themselves, 2) the forums, and 3) the official discord community. The offense took place outside of the official discord community on a private discord, so we cannot claim that this extends to misbehavior on the official TG discord.

https://tgstation13.download/dip/discordimageproxy.php/attachments/ ... 328654.mp4
Chuck's feed and seed

[Omega_DarkPotato]

if you wish to challenge the plea of the prosecution you are required to have access to all the evidence that they are using.

You are correct neither I, nor any member of the community, is privy to the details that would be necessary to determine an adequate punishment. We have to trust the judgment of MSO and the headmins for that. I also agree they hold their positions for good reason and can be trusted with such decisions. However, in this case, the person wronged was one of their own administration team. As you must be aware, personal affiliations with the victim of a case can cause the judge of the case to levy harsher punishments than they might have had they no relation to the victim:

Spoiler:

Rule 2.11: Disqualification
(A) A judge shall disqualify himself or herself in any proceeding in which the judge’s impartiality* might reasonably be questioned, including but not limited to the following circumstances:
(1) The judge has a personal bias or prejudice concerning a party or a party’s lawyer, or personal knowledge* of facts that are in dispute in the proceeding.

(American Bar Association)

Now, again here we must give the headmins and host the benefit of the doubt. But unlike a court of law, punishment is enacted almost immediately after the offense. Given such a short duration between the offense and the determination of the punishment, and given the personal relationship between the judges and the victim, I believe it is more than likely human passion and emotion have involved themselves in what should be a case judged only by the rule of law. There is no preventing this; however, I have tried to offer an alternate way to determine a fitting length of punishment as a resolution.

ok well you murdered 27 people but now that we caught you we know you wouldn't throw your life away to do it again, so i guess im just gonna let you go

In this case, the criminal would be punished according to both (1), (2), and (3). In most cases one should think they would be at risk for doing it again, clearly, because murdering 27 people implies a lack of care for human life in general. But supposing they aren't at risk for doing it again (e.g., someone who just wanted to get their manifesto publicized and therefore committed mass murder), they would still deserve life behind bars, at the very least, because of (2) retribution.

considering the ban was due to behavior on discord i think it is safe to assume they have, in fact, not behaved on the discord

I would consider the TG community to consist of 1) the IC community in the servers themselves, 2) the forums, and 3) the official discord community. The offense took place outside of the official discord community on a private discord, so we cannot claim that this extends to misbehavior on the official TG discord.

ok so
in case you still haven't read the snips
jackrip brought up doxxing vekter (and his related accounts, not just the digg one) more than once

I don't understand why you're arguing for a man who repeatedly brought up releasing someone's personal irl info, just because he's good at clicking on people in a video game.
He's a piece of shit for doing this and a bigger piece of shit for doubling down on it when he got caught.

In the unlikely event that he magically has a huge personality change from thinking that this is anywhere near acceptable, the damage has still been done. Keep him gone, maybe bagil will finally regain its pop now that the man who thought that repeated murder of a server was good for it doesn't exist anymore.

Also nice take that because the doxxed party was an admin you get to throw free hits on "bro what if theyre biased lol haha"
MSO's already got the hard-line stance that doxxing = blacklist, and changing that'd be bias against, stay owned (online) (on tgstation forums) (in this pnut post)

[Armhulen]

Is it just me or is "willing doxxer" and "good for the community" not mixing here

[sinfulbliss]

ok so
in case you still haven't read the snips
jackrip brought up doxxing vekter (and his related accounts, not just the digg one) more than once

I don't understand why you're arguing for a man who repeatedly brought up releasing someone's personal irl info, just because he's good at clicking on people in a video game.
He's a piece of shit for doing this and a bigger piece of shit for doubling down on it when he got caught.

In the unlikely event that he magically has a huge personality change from thinking that this is anywhere near acceptable, the damage has still been done. Keep him gone, maybe bagil will finally regain its pop now that the man who thought that repeated murder of a server was good for it doesn't exist anymore.

Also nice take that because the doxxed party was an admin you get to throw free hits on "bro what if theyre biased lol haha"
MSO's already got the hard-line stance that doxxing = blacklist, and changing that'd be bias against, stay owned (online) (on tgstation forums) (in this pnut post)

My friend,
I am not defending what he did, and I agree that his actions reflect on him extremely poorly. All I have endeavored to do is offer a more consistent and impartial way in determining the length of punishment. If the headmins truly think a blacklist is the just retribution for his actions, then that's that. My motive for arguing for him is because I believe after, say, a year-long ban, it is almost certain their return would add value to the community and not negativity. It is also regrettable to see someone who invested so much into the community become blacklisted from it, and I want to raise a question whether such a harsh punishment is proportional to the offense.

I also do not believe he is a piece of shit. I think people are very complicated and do shitty things sometimes. Sometimes things that are really, really shitty and unacceptable. Yet these same people, when taken in sum, may not be "pieces of shit," and may actually be mostly good people. I think we all fit that description to some degree or another. You are right that his personality resulted in this sort of joke, and there is no reason to believe he would change radically anytime soon. However, I do believe if he knew what consequences he would face for such a joke, he wouldn't have made it in the first place. Because his conduct was in a private Discord, he likely wasn't thinking about the possibility of being reprimanded for it on TG until it was too late. The response itself from the admin team is enough to indicate to him that such behavior is unacceptable, and I believe there is little evidence to suggest he would do this again going forward given what is a rather clean 6+ year history in the community.

EDIT: I should also clarify it has been said by the headmins themselves that Jackrip is not and was not a "doxer." So to label them as such isn't appropriate here.

[Armhulen]

once you do what you think is doxing, and you've shown people you're not beneath doxing someone, you've chosen the path of blacklist

and no, that's not unfair. every community in existence treats it like this because of the real life fuckery that it can include. can you really talk to jackrip like normal knowing they will dox you if they don't like you?

[Agux909]

[sinfulbliss]

once you do what you think is doxing, and you've shown people you're not beneath doxing someone, you've chosen the path of blacklist

and no, that's not unfair. every community in existence treats it like this because of the real life fuckery that it can include. can you really talk to jackrip like normal knowing they will dox you if they don't like you?

I have said some pretty mean shit to them before and didn't get doxxed, and my Discord name is literally my name... So I don't think that worry is there. This case was less a targeted dox and more of a "hurr durr their names are the same everywhere hehe." Then sharing that info and making it into a joke. Still wrong, to be sure - but not like a "fuck this guy, I'm gonna find his socials and ruin his life with them" sort of wrong.

If someone wanted to dox me BTW (don't dox me) I would be able to prove my point by requesting the offender to not be blacklisted and only receive a 1-year ban (maybe 2 years if they fucked some shit up).

[wesoda25]

Doxxers do not get second chances. The chance, however slim, of them reoffending will never be worth it. There is no contribution or series of contributions which can ever outweigh the damages doxxing can cause. In this case he did not actually dox them (by headmins definition, apparently), but I struggle to see the difference when he stated that he thought what he was going to do was doxxing, as it all the same revealed his ability to do so.

Also, I personally find the concepts of “justice” and “retribution” ridiculous. Bans are made in the interests of the community - everything admins do are in the interests of the community. People aren’t banned out of some desire to make right the wrongs others experienced as a result of their rule break, but to guide the rule-breaker towards more ideal behavior. These concepts almost necessitate punishment in response to rule-breaking, which is honestly one of the worst traps you can fall into as an admin.

Who gives a fuck about who is entitled to what, who deserves what? The end goal is to create a better experience for everyone involved, and “justice” and “retribution” have no place in that. The person who was “doxxed” in this situation is entitled to no more than any other member of the community: a place where you can interact without the fear of having your personal information revealed online.

[TheFinalPotato]

In short, your opinion on the punishment is unimportant, since the issue at hand is preventing them from having the ability to do it ever again. This is a community of crazy people, and having your personal information leak can be devastating, doubly so depending on where you live and ah, who you are

[Screemonster]

also assholes are very rarely only one type of asshole

the kind of person that's willing to dox someone "as a joke haha" is the kind of person that's willing to do a whole lot of other shit

as for the legalisting WEHHH WEHHHHH YOU CAN'T BAN PEOPLE shit, there's no constitutional right to play on a fucking video game server

if you rocked up to a bar and, even as a joke, told one of the other patrons "I know where you live" over a minor slight, the bouncers would eject your shitty ass from the premises and call the cops if you returned

[sinfulbliss]

Also, I personally find the concepts of “justice” and “retribution” ridiculous. Bans are made in the interests of the community - everything admins do are in the interests of the community. People aren’t banned out of some desire to make right the wrongs others experienced as a result of their rule break, but to guide the rule-breaker towards more ideal behavior.

I thought all your points were very good but disagreed with this. What is the causal connection between a rule breaker being banned and the rule breaker being guided to ideal behavior? Notes and bwoinks guide players who mess up to more correct behavior. Bans don't "guide" anyone, they are simply the tool of punishment used to discourage rule violation. When rules are violated, the ban is applied as a punishment, regardless of whether the player is at risk of recurrent behavior. Under your theory of bans as guiding tools, permabans would have no place, also.

the kind of person that's willing to dox someone "as a joke haha" is the kind of person that's willing to do a whole lot of other shit

Then why haven't they done the "whole lot of other shit" for the last 6 years? Why did they choose now to reveal the wicked, evil person they always were? Did they turn on their "become a danger to the community" switch? I doubt it personally. Nah, I think it was a joke in very poor taste that underestimated what impact it would have.

as for the legalisting WEHHH WEHHHHH YOU CAN'T BAN PEOPLE shit, there's no constitutional right to play on a fucking video game server

No shit. As a private game server it can do whatever the fuck it wants and serve whoever the fuck it wants. I wasn't trying to appeal to a greater authority and claim the headmins aren't allowed to do something. I was trying to appeal to the headmins themselves. Didn't work but least I tried okay

if you rocked up to a bar and, even as a joke, told one of the other patrons "I know where you live" over a minor slight, the bouncers would eject your shitty ass from the premises and call the cops if you returned

That would... Definitely never happen. Like ever. The guy would just look at you funny and maybe move to sit somewhere else. The bouncers wouldn't even hear you or notice, but even if they did, they wouldn't give a shit because it's a BAR and people get fucked up and make bad jokes and get rowdy.

[Jonathan Gupta]

Also, I personally find the concepts of “justice” and “retribution” ridiculous. Bans are made in the interests of the community - everything admins do are in the interests of the community. People aren’t banned out of some desire to make right the wrongs others experienced as a result of their rule break, but to guide the rule-breaker towards more ideal behavior.

I thought all your points were very good but disagreed with this. What is the causal connection between a rule breaker being banned and the rule breaker being guided to ideal behavior? Notes and bwoinks guide players who mess up to more correct behavior. Bans don't "guide" anyone, they are simply the tool of punishment used to discourage rule violation. When rules are violated, the ban is applied as a punishment, regardless of whether the player is at risk of recurrent behavior. Under your theory of bans as guiding tools, permabans would have no place, also.

the kind of person that's willing to dox someone "as a joke haha" is the kind of person that's willing to do a whole lot of other shit

Then why haven't they done the "whole lot of other shit" for the last 6 years? Why did they choose now to reveal the wicked, evil person they always were? Did they turn on their "become a danger to the community" switch? I doubt it personally. Nah, I think it was a joke in very poor taste that underestimated what impact it would have.

as for the legalisting WEHHH WEHHHHH YOU CAN'T BAN PEOPLE shit, there's no constitutional right to play on a fucking video game server

No shit. As a private game server it can do whatever the fuck it wants and serve whoever the fuck it wants. I wasn't trying to appeal to a greater authority and claim the headmins aren't allowed to do something. I was trying to appeal to the headmins themselves. Didn't work but least I tried okay

if you rocked up to a bar and, even as a joke, told one of the other patrons "I know where you live" over a minor slight, the bouncers would eject your shitty ass from the premises and call the cops if you returned

That would... Definitely never happen. Like ever. The guy would just look at you funny and maybe move to sit somewhere else. The bouncers wouldn't even hear you or notice, but even if they did, they wouldn't give a shit because it's a BAR and people get fucked up and make bad jokes and get rowdy.

TL;DR I said that last one at a bar just to test, I got my ass beat...

[sinfulbliss]

TL;DR I said that last one at a bar just to test, I got my ass beat...

you didnt get kicked out though did you?? exactly. korol only got kicked out cause they couldnt beat his ass barfight style

[Jonathan Gupta]

TL;DR I said that last one at a bar just to test, I got my ass beat...

you didnt get kicked out though did you?? exactly. korol only got kicked out cause they couldnt beat his ass barfight style

I got kicked out as well, korol irl probably couldn't box a fucking bouncer.

[sinfulbliss]

TL;DR I said that last one at a bar just to test, I got my ass beat...

you didnt get kicked out though did you?? exactly. korol only got kicked out cause they couldnt beat his ass barfight style

I got kicked out as well, korol irl probably couldn't box a fucking bouncer.

To be honest bouncers probably aren't even trained in boxing, they're just hired for being big strong and intimidating. If you're a decently trained boxer (like not fuckin Tyson, just decently trained) and are at least somewhat fit, maybe some BJJ experience, you could absolutely destroy that bouncer in a fight.

[Misdoubtful]

Bouncers really aren't. Usually just able to be straight up while being regulars without getting smashed or carried away with whatever the place is doing. Rest is usually just on the side that people do, sometimes after a security course of their own wishes. But it kinda comes w/ the territory so...

[cacogen]

Where are these bars where bullying nerds gets you thrown out, anyway? Sounds very middle class.

[Vekter]

Literally 1984 because you can't ruin someone's life but not really because you're just kidding

[cacogen]

Maybe the soys at the barcade are living happier, more successful lives than the autists shitting on them on 4chan? Maybe performatively shitting on soys is just masculine posturing when really these are faggots who never leave the house? If somebody had shown these lumpen unconditional love, they could have friends, careers and social lives too. They'd still be faggots, but they'd see that it is not a fatal flaw.

Anyway I need a job in media or tech so I can afford to visit the soy bar where the bouncers will protect my feelings

[Rohen_Tahir]

Where are these bars where bullying nerds gets you thrown out, anyway? Sounds very middle class.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Googl ... 122.021892 and Britain

[Fikou]

@sinfulbliss
the thing that made him lose any chance at unbanning is what he sent to another admin thinking he snitched to the headmins

Spoiler:

making threats to ruin someones identity in a community and not addressing them at all or apologizing for them in your ban appeal isnt gonna help

[TheFinalPotato]

Also, I personally find the concepts of “justice” and “retribution” ridiculous. Bans are made in the interests of the community - everything admins do are in the interests of the community. People aren’t banned out of some desire to make right the wrongs others experienced as a result of their rule break, but to guide the rule-breaker towards more ideal behavior.

I thought all your points were very good but disagreed with this. What is the causal connection between a rule breaker being banned and the rule breaker being guided to ideal behavior? Notes and bwoinks guide players who mess up to more correct behavior. Bans don't "guide" anyone, they are simply the tool of punishment used to discourage rule violation. When rules are violated, the ban is applied as a punishment, regardless of whether the player is at risk of recurrent behavior. Under your theory of bans as guiding tools, permabans would have no place, also.

the kind of person that's willing to dox someone "as a joke haha" is the kind of person that's willing to do a whole lot of other shit

Then why haven't they done the "whole lot of other shit" for the last 6 years? Why did they choose now to reveal the wicked, evil person they always were? Did they turn on their "become a danger to the community" switch? I doubt it personally. Nah, I think it was a joke in very poor taste that underestimated what impact it would have.

as for the legalisting WEHHH WEHHHHH YOU CAN'T BAN PEOPLE shit, there's no constitutional right to play on a fucking video game server

No shit. As a private game server it can do whatever the fuck it wants and serve whoever the fuck it wants. I wasn't trying to appeal to a greater authority and claim the headmins aren't allowed to do something. I was trying to appeal to the headmins themselves. Didn't work but least I tried okay

if you rocked up to a bar and, even as a joke, told one of the other patrons "I know where you live" over a minor slight, the bouncers would eject your shitty ass from the premises and call the cops if you returned

That would... Definitely never happen. Like ever. The guy would just look at you funny and maybe move to sit somewhere else. The bouncers wouldn't even hear you or notice, but even if they did, they wouldn't give a shit because it's a BAR and people get fucked up and make bad jokes and get rowdy.

TL;DR I said that last one at a bar just to test, I got my ass beat...

Gupta out here putting in the work to validate peanut threads (Don't get yoursefl killed man)

[Jonathan Gupta]

Also, I personally find the concepts of “justice” and “retribution” ridiculous. Bans are made in the interests of the community - everything admins do are in the interests of the community. People aren’t banned out of some desire to make right the wrongs others experienced as a result of their rule break, but to guide the rule-breaker towards more ideal behavior.

I thought all your points were very good but disagreed with this. What is the causal connection between a rule breaker being banned and the rule breaker being guided to ideal behavior? Notes and bwoinks guide players who mess up to more correct behavior. Bans don't "guide" anyone, they are simply the tool of punishment used to discourage rule violation. When rules are violated, the ban is applied as a punishment, regardless of whether the player is at risk of recurrent behavior. Under your theory of bans as guiding tools, permabans would have no place, also.

the kind of person that's willing to dox someone "as a joke haha" is the kind of person that's willing to do a whole lot of other shit

Then why haven't they done the "whole lot of other shit" for the last 6 years? Why did they choose now to reveal the wicked, evil person they always were? Did they turn on their "become a danger to the community" switch? I doubt it personally. Nah, I think it was a joke in very poor taste that underestimated what impact it would have.

as for the legalisting WEHHH WEHHHHH YOU CAN'T BAN PEOPLE shit, there's no constitutional right to play on a fucking video game server

No shit. As a private game server it can do whatever the fuck it wants and serve whoever the fuck it wants. I wasn't trying to appeal to a greater authority and claim the headmins aren't allowed to do something. I was trying to appeal to the headmins themselves. Didn't work but least I tried okay

if you rocked up to a bar and, even as a joke, told one of the other patrons "I know where you live" over a minor slight, the bouncers would eject your shitty ass from the premises and call the cops if you returned

That would... Definitely never happen. Like ever. The guy would just look at you funny and maybe move to sit somewhere else. The bouncers wouldn't even hear you or notice, but even if they did, they wouldn't give a shit because it's a BAR and people get fucked up and make bad jokes and get rowdy.

TL;DR I said that last one at a bar just to test, I got my ass beat...

Gupta out here putting in the work to validate peanut threads (Don't get yoursefl killed man)

I won't die my hp is 2k compared to normies 100. (Gupta never dies)