The coders are always fucking things up.

[Rohen_Tahir]

Bottom post of the previous page:

FUCK YOU CDOERS YOU WILL REMOVE CLOWN IN 2023 IN THE TIMELINE DESIGNATED AS FF8C1A.

[Super Aggro Crag]

ok rick sanchez

[terranaut]

i just imagined a world where that pr was merged and now I'm REALLY mad. wtf coders

I'm too lazy to make a funny edit of this replacing twitter with github and guy with pr and exists with got merged but please pretend I did

[Mothblocks]

i love that picture so much and it was directly what i was referencing

[Timonk]

I just imagined a world where i pounded terranauts mom and now we're married wtf

[Jonathan Gupta]

I just imagined a world where i pounded terranauts mom and now we're married wtf

I had a dream I pounded Mrs. Sybil yes and she had a S for a face, it was terrifying. Turns out I gave birth to myself, what a great dream .

[Armhulen]

*Opens a pr where AI's default lawset is paladin*

IF WE WERE IN THE WORLD WHERE MAINTAINERS MERGED THIS, THE ONLY THING I'D BE THINKING IS: WHY WOULD MAINTAINERS MERGE THIS?

[sinfulbliss]

OK the gatruit removal was a bad example. But my point was just:

balance =! better.
Balance/nerf/removal is only needed when some specific feature/mechanic breaks the game over and over again. It isn't needed when something is quite rare.

Take the tdome armor as the example if you want, it was something which didn't ever interfere with the flow of the game but was nerfed for balance reasons.

[Rohen_Tahir]

OK the gatruit removal was a bad example. But my point was just:

balance =! better.
Balance/nerf/removal is only needed when some specific feature/mechanic breaks the game over and over again. It isn't needed when something is quite rare.

Take the tdome armor as the example if you want, it was something which didn't ever interfere with the flow of the game but was nerfed for balance reasons.

You mean the holodeck godmode armor?

[Timonk]

OK the gatruit removal was a bad example.

wait WHAT WHO

[Mothblocks]

i must come clean that i accused timonk of not reading the thread, after forgetting he already replied

[Not-Dorsidarf]

yah but arent we all?

no biggie

[EuSouAFazenda]

Coder's biggest mistake was coding this game, tf am I supposed to do at a friday night now? Socialize irl? Sorry bitches, but I have bar rp to attend to.

[Kendrickorium]

[Rohen_Tahir]

imgflip.com

[Mothblocks]

but that image doesn't look flipped at all

[Timonk]

i must come clean that i accused timonk of not reading the thread, after forgetting he already replied

how dare you.

[Misdoubtful]

I will ruin you oranges almost went to the bar with me once but got lost almost also i never showed lmao

[Cobby]

Feel free to pr buffs to items you feel are undervalued, it’s a lot more productive and will likely provide a change you want to see vs a forum post regarding a generic stance of items being weak (I guess that’s relative to something but I’m hoping it’s not the old items that just made you win with 1 shot)

No one is currently championing finding that sweet spot so that could be (you)

[terranaut]

I’m hoping it’s not the old items that just made you win with 1 shot

those were the days though, when you were actually scared of antags and the solution was to make sure you were surrounded by a person you could trust

[Cobby]

You should still be scared of antags especially if they get the drop on you, youre just going to be able to put up SOME fight instead of waiting for an hour OR "being paranoid" aka not interacting with anyone unless you have something short of OOC guarantee they are nonantag.

Even in games like town of salem if youre in a situation where you know youre literally going to die that night you still have SOME wiggly room to attempt to persuade other people to make a play or even use an ability.

Thats not to say you want it so drawn out that its like "ok just kill me already", which is why I want someone to champion that finding of the "sweet spot" of combat.

[terranaut]

weapons were generally more potent the stealthier they way and the way to avoid being killed (the boring traitors choice of kill objective completion was parapen c4 and changelings being parasting) was to be in a crowd of people where you'd be far less likely to be grabbed and dragged into maint only to be gone forever. this also generally lead to more rp while people worked on jobs or projects together. traitors who wanted a killing spree had to do so with an esword that was okay but without the plethora of combat buffs available just to crew (potent drugs, genetic enhancements, items from ruins or research and possibly other power creep available to everyone i'm not aware of), plus the antag power creep with other potent combat options (+more tc, changeling points, etc).

basically the best way to kill a stealth antag was to stay in a group and combat antags would still generally die to a well executed slip or table grab into toolbox and i think thats much more interestind dynamic and more fun than everyone having fireaxes, spears, space and asteroid ruin gear, researched guns and what have you.
even then beign shot by a syndie with a revolver would mean you just take 60 brute which can be fixed with a brute pack, some pills or a trip to the sleeper.

[Armhulen]

Honestly there are still a lot of servers that cater to that though, like paradise and vgstation. You will find no lack of old codebases

[Armhulen]

Also having been from that era (even if the late end of it) I remember the true and real paranoia feel but also like it was just straight up bullshit. the only agency you have against it is being near people and so if you go anywhere on your own and i literally mean anywhere since it could just be a hallway (this is stupid) you can be instakilled + gibbed in 5 seconds with zero interaction.

and don't give me that "you had to stay away from people" everyone was running around at mach 5 back then so fat chance

[MMMiracles]

Also having been from that era (even if the late end of it) I remember the true and real paranoia feel but also like it was just straight up bullshit. the only agency you have against it is being near people and so if you go anywhere on your own and i literally mean anywhere since it could just be a hallway (this is stupid) you can be instakilled + gibbed in 5 seconds with zero interaction.

and don't give me that "you had to stay away from people" everyone was running around at mach 5 back then so fat chance

bro what do you mean, don't you remember being genuinely terrified of any semi-competent CMO that'd fill their hypo with chloral hydrate for an instant knockout with zero counterplay? or a chemist with a syringe gun and trekchems that took like 2 minutes to mix up your local death batch

what about old-lings with funny things like being able to queue up para/silence sting so you literally could not react if you were remotely alone, or ranged deathsting that required you to carry dexalin on you at all times or be dead in like 15-20 seconds

uh, what about when c4 would outright gib you if someone attached it to you/made you hold it as it went off, usually paired with a parapen so you could literally walk up to someone in a group and remove them from the round before anyone reacted

spammable ebows, stun gloves with tiny hand sprites you could hide easily, secborgs with ranged tasers, welder bombs gibbing corpses in a 3x3 area, random space making your corpse getting chucked even more of a round-ender, ect...

[Kel]

Also having been from that era (even if the late end of it) I remember the true and real paranoia feel but also like it was just straight up bullshit. the only agency you have against it is being near people and so if you go anywhere on your own and i literally mean anywhere since it could just be a hallway (this is stupid) you can be instakilled + gibbed in 5 seconds with zero interaction.

and don't give me that "you had to stay away from people" everyone was running around at mach 5 back then so fat chance

old ways definitely worked way better against powergaming though. your taser might be good, but there are a myriad of other things that were even better, but werent technically trumping it in power level (1 shot 1 kill is still 1 shot 1 kill no matter how much you add auto reloading, infinite ammo, or silent shooting into the mix).
regardless of that, the bullshitness of the old day had a consequence of shitter behavior basically being a one way ticket to death. trying to hunt antags alone in maint? lol. one man murderbones against the entire station? sure you're better off killing civilians compared to now, but wiping fully popped security alone was a feat, considering it was a whole department who effectively could oneshot you vs a single you.

trying to chase balance perfection by stamping out whatever is currently strongest will not only never work, it also facilitates a true meta wherein only a SINGLE strategy is the most effective at a time (and will probably be nerfed within the month, spawning a new one in turn)

[terranaut]

Also having been from that era (even if the late end of it) I remember the true and real paranoia feel but also like it was just straight up bullshit. the only agency you have against it is being near people and so if you go anywhere on your own and i literally mean anywhere since it could just be a hallway (this is stupid) you can be instakilled + gibbed in 5 seconds with zero interaction.

and don't give me that "you had to stay away from people" everyone was running around at mach 5 back then so fat chance

bro what do you mean, don't you remember being genuinely terrified of any semi-competent CMO that'd fill their hypo with chloral hydrate for an instant knockout with zero counterplay? or a chemist with a syringe gun and trekchems that took like 2 minutes to mix up your local death batch

what about old-lings with funny things like being able to queue up para/silence sting so you literally could not react if you were remotely alone, or ranged deathsting that required you to carry dexalin on you at all times or be dead in like 15-20 seconds

uh, what about when c4 would outright gib you if someone attached it to you/made you hold it as it went off, usually paired with a parapen so you could literally walk up to someone in a group and remove them from the round before anyone reacted

spammable ebows, stun gloves with tiny hand sprites you could hide easily, secborgs with ranged tasers, welder bombs gibbing corpses in a 3x3 area, random space making your corpse getting chucked even more of a round-ender, ect...

yes i loved all those things because they added to the paranoia of the game on overdrive. idk about you guys but this is supposed to be a scifi horror game, not a literal battle royale where the guy with the best and most loot wins.

[Rohen_Tahir]

weapons were generally more potent the stealthier they way and the way to avoid being killed (the boring traitors choice of kill objective completion was parapen c4 and changelings being parasting) was to be in a crowd of people where you'd be far less likely to be grabbed and dragged into maint only to be gone forever. this also generally lead to more rp while people worked on jobs or projects together. traitors who wanted a killing spree had to do so with an esword that was okay but without the plethora of combat buffs available just to crew (potent drugs, genetic enhancements, items from ruins or research and possibly other power creep available to everyone i'm not aware of), plus the antag power creep with other potent combat options (+more tc, changeling points, etc).

basically the best way to kill a stealth antag was to stay in a group and combat antags would still generally die to a well executed slip or table grab into toolbox and i think thats much more interestind dynamic and more fun than everyone having fireaxes, spears, space and asteroid ruin gear, researched guns and what have you.
even then beign shot by a syndie with a revolver would mean you just take 60 brute which can be fixed with a brute pack, some pills or a trip to the sleeper.

amogus

[Agux909]

[Omega_DarkPotato]

dont tell the people you're going to kill (ided pr lol) but radioactive microlaser is a one-shot-one-kill on a target that's on their own and you can guarantee will be on their own for the next 30 seconds
20 second wait time after a scan, and then 15 seconds of unconsciousness

it's very easy to drag a body that's about to become a corpse into maint with 15 seconds
it's just that now you have to add in the slightest bit of strategy or creative thinking for using it and you can't run into a crowd, pop it, and then run away with a kill already confirmed.


stealth weapons are fun.

[Kel]

dont tell the people you're going to kill (ided pr lol) but radioactive microlaser is a one-shot-one-kill on a target that's on their own and you can guarantee will be on their own for the next 30 seconds
20 second wait time after a scan, and then 15 seconds of unconsciousness

it's very easy to drag a body that's about to become a corpse into maint with 15 seconds
it's just that now you have to add in the slightest bit of strategy or creative thinking for using it and you can't run into a crowd, pop it, and then run away with a kill already confirmed.


stealth weapons are fun.

literally every time someone med scans outside of medbay 4nr me i assume its a microlaser and go to medbay though

[Rohen_Tahir]

dont tell the people you're going to kill (ided pr lol) but radioactive microlaser is a one-shot-one-kill on a target that's on their own and you can guarantee will be on their own for the next 30 seconds
20 second wait time after a scan, and then 15 seconds of unconsciousness

it's very easy to drag a body that's about to become a corpse into maint with 15 seconds
it's just that now you have to add in the slightest bit of strategy or creative thinking for using it and you can't run into a crowd, pop it, and then run away with a kill already confirmed.


stealth weapons are fun.

literally every time someone med scans outside of medbay 4nr me i assume its a microlaser and go to medbay though

gamer

[EuSouAFazenda]

Trying to chase balance perfection by stamping out whatever is currently strongest will not only never work, it also facilitates a true meta wherein only a SINGLE strategy is the most effective at a time (and will probably be nerfed within the month, spawning a new one in turn)

Fun fact: The stronger the average weapon is, the more balanced the game is.
I think "Whoever landed more hits than received in a 1v1 deserves to win the fight" is a pretty fair metric, so let's go with that.

Let's say we have Weapon A and Weapon B, and that a player has 100 health.

Scenario 1:
Weapon A has 3 damage and Weapon B has 4,5. It takes 34 hits to kill with Weapon A while it takes 23 to kill with Weapon B. In a fight between Weapon A and Weapon B, the guy holding Weapon A has to hit B 11 times more than he is hit to win.

Scenario 2:
Weapon A has 30 damage and Weapon B has 45. It takes 4 attacks to kill with Weapon A while it takes 3 to kill with Weapon B. In a fight, A only has to hit B 1 time more than he is hit to win.


In Scenario 1, if B hit A 30 times while A hit it 23 times, A would win despite performing significantly worse than B, with a difference of 7 hits. However in Scenario 2, if B hit A 4 times while A hit it twice, a difference of 2 hits, B wins. With more powerful weapons, the skillgap needed to overcome a stronger weapon is smaller.

What that means is simple: The stronger everyone weapon's are, the more fair the fight is to the one with the worse weapon. It's a much less uphill battle. If you nerf the best weapon every week, eventually you'd have hit all the weapons. And when that happens it won't have made everything balanced: It would have made everything even more unbalanced than it was before. Good weapons become better and bad weapons become worse as the gap between them increae.



Tldr: Due to some math fuckaroos, a game whose weapons 4, 3 or 2 kill you is more balanced than a game whose weapons kill you in 40, 30 and 20 hits despite them all being evenly apart. And this is all from a game balance standpoint; strong weapons, as stated previously in this thread, increase the feeling of paranoia of the game.

Tldr for the Tldr: A stick is far stronger to a feather than a chainsaw is to a knife.

[Pandarsenic]

The flip side of that is that the stronger the weapons are/the shorter the TTK, the more important first-hit advantage is. Compare 10ish hits (toolboxes and fire extinguishers and the like) to 2 hits (.357 revolver) or 4 hits (energy sword).

If someone toolboxes you, it's reasonably possible that a high-skill player with a fire extinguisher can bring that combat back in their favor.

If you have a 357 (2 hits) and your target has an esword (3-4 hits) and you tap them, now you're able to walk away from the slowed person. Hell, you might even be able to down them with the second shot before they can pull and activate the e-sword.

[terranaut]

STOP TRYING TO BALANCE FOR PVP COMBAT YOU MOUTHBREATHERS

[Shadowflame909]

STOP TRYING TO BALANCE FOR PVP COMBAT YOU MOUTHBREATHERS

This is why Hulk is a broken limbed Turkey instead of a ferocious out of control monster

Bring back Hulk!! Not broken arm greytide!!

[iksyp]

ss13s combat is inherently limited so its hard to create a satisfying melee combat system
ranged combat works well because you just point, click, take cover, and dodge. you can target limbs to try and wound them to slow down your enemy and such for non lethal approaches and its just very nice
melee is in a weird state where you have to risk yourself to beat your enemy and there's not really any way to beat them without critting them, the rest of the game doesn't gel well with it, being top down, grid based, and laggy
i enjoyed hardstuns more than the stamina stuff (i haven't actively played for awhile so idk what its like now)

[PKPenguin321]

Among Us unironically builds a better sense of paranoia and tension than SS13 and it doesn't really even have a combat system, just a click-and-you're-dead type thing

[Timonk]

We live in a society

[Fishimun]

I'm mandating that coders need at least 60 hours in among us. your prs will be speed merged.

[Rohen_Tahir]

Susciety

[Tlaltecuhtli]

melee combat is just doing fake deathgasp at the right time so you can heal off crit and baton them while they are ignoring you

[Armhulen]

STOP TRYING TO BALANCE FOR PVP COMBAT YOU MOUTHBREATHERS

This is why Hulk is a broken limbed Turkey instead of a ferocious out of control monster

Bring back Hulk!! Not broken arm greytide!!

yea i never liked that nerf man

[oranges]

Among Us unironically builds a better sense of paranoia and tension than SS13 and it doesn't really even have a combat system, just a click-and-you're-dead type thing

skill issue

[Malkraz]

everyone was running around at mach 5 back then so fat chance

the good old days...

[Whoneedspacee]

its almost like i've been saying this for years

oh well people always want to stuff out what makes things unique

for the record this type of project probably still has an audience a lot of people just want to play a game where goofy shit that wouldnt happen in literally any other game happens

the coders tried to quantify fun and decided that ss13 wasnt fun but clearly there are still people yearning for what was

to be fair though there are clearly people who enjoy a more balanced ss13 so i don't think it was a bad decision but you definitely left behind a lot of your audience

[Whoneedspacee]

If you end up balancing everything perfectly you end up with a very fair yet very boring game. It's good to have jank, so long as the jank isn't the same jank every single round.

well said

[Whoneedspacee]

ss13s combat is inherently limited so its hard to create a satisfying melee combat system
ranged combat works well because you just point, click, take cover, and dodge. you can target limbs to try and wound them to slow down your enemy and such for non lethal approaches and its just very nice
melee is in a weird state where you have to risk yourself to beat your enemy and there's not really any way to beat them without critting them, the rest of the game doesn't gel well with it, being top down, grid based, and laggy
i enjoyed hardstuns more than the stamina stuff (i haven't actively played for awhile so idk what its like now)

i enjoyed old ranged combat because there was a lot of movement fuckery that felt like it really mattered, now when everyone can take a billion hits it feels less interesting to me

also people always talk about the shit stun meta but i never hear them talk about the hilarious moments where you got back up and completely reversed it, that shit was comedy gold

fast, volatile, funny, and when i perma-die i just join another server rinse repeat

[Rohesie]

/vg/ still has these features, no stun combat removal there.
Paradise to an extent as well, last I checked.
Not sure about goon, but heard something on their combat being like that. Don't have first hand experience to confirm.
It's not like these things have merely stopped existing, now, is it?

[terranaut]

/vg/ still has these features, no stun combat removal there.
Paradise to an extent as well, last I checked.
Not sure about goon, but heard something on their combat being like that. Don't have first hand experience to confirm.
It's not like these things have merely stopped existing, now, is it?

I dislike the rules and community of Paradise and Goon way too much to even consider playing there.

[Armhulen]

/vg/ still has these features, no stun combat removal there.
Paradise to an extent as well, last I checked.
Not sure about goon, but heard something on their combat being like that. Don't have first hand experience to confirm.
It's not like these things have merely stopped existing, now, is it?

I dislike the rules and community of Paradise and Goon way too much to even consider playing there.

/vg/?