Supreme Court Ruling.

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Re: Supreme Court Ruling.

Post by Timbrewolf » #99420

Bottom post of the previous page:

mosquitoman wrote:Yeah, there's no concerted effort to make this the new normal. It all just happens spontaneously. Nobody oversees this, it all occurred by coincidence overnight. People who say otherwise are loonies comparable to those who believe in NSA spying on all kwans without a warrant or those who never believed there were any weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. They're lunatics, man.
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Re: Supreme Court Ruling.

Post by Loonikus » #99423

Wyzack wrote:If churches are actually getting in trouble for refusing to marry gay people that is pretty bullshit. I firmly believe that they have that right even if I think it is shit
They can't be selective. Non-profit organizations are bound to be non-discriminatory by tax code. If they discriminate, they are in violation of their non-profit status, and since marriage is a right now, to deny it would be selective of who they service.

This was always about forcing people to accept homosexuals and nothing else. The only people who even care about marriage are people who care about tradition and religious people. Homosexuals are neither. There is no law forbidding them from living together, changing their last name, and filing each other as beneficiaries/right to attorney. They gain nothing from this except the ability to say "HAHA NOW YOU HAVE TO ACCEPT US!"

At this point, I'd just abolish marriage as a legally recognized institution. The state should not recognize any marriage.
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Re: Supreme Court Ruling.

Post by mosquitoman » #99425

An0n3, you continue to typify the college educated dolt who never learns enough to realize what he doesn't know so outweighs what little he thinks he knows that it is much worse than knowing less than nothing about anything. Those are the final moans of an r-selected, low testosterone wimp. He'll pop some pills soon and return to semi-comatose state most kwans spend all their lives in.
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Re: Supreme Court Ruling.

Post by TheNightingale » #99427

It's 2015, it took them long enough. Remember, though, just because LGBT+ can get married, that doesn't mean they won't be discriminated against, fired from work, shunned by their family, sent to rehabilitation camps and so on.

Churches in the US can't deny marriage to lesbian and gay couples now, but some states (Mississippi and Alabama so far, I think?) have stopped issuing marriage licences altogether. "If gays can get married, nobody can get married!"
Not-Dorsidarf wrote:I don't get what the Q+ people have been sticking onto LGBT means.

Also good for americans I guess?
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Re: Supreme Court Ruling.

Post by mosquitoman » #99430

TheNightingale wrote:It's 2015, it took them long enough. Remember, though, just because LGBT+ can get married, that doesn't mean they won't be discriminated against, fired from work, shunned by their family, sent to rehabilitation camps and so on.
This never happens. On the other hand, if your opinion differs from the official state propaganda, you can and will be subject to all of those, often at once.
TheNightingale wrote: Churches in the US can't deny marriage to lesbian and gay couples now, but some states (Mississippi and Alabama so far, I think?) have stopped issuing marriage licences altogether. "If gays can get married, nobody can get married!"
That's because gay "marriage" is an oxymoron. If they're forced to give weddings to homosexuals, it loses all meaning and might as well stop doing it altogether. This isn't some empty rite that can be granted to just about anyone.
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Re: Supreme Court Ruling.

Post by Ricotez » #99433

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Re: Supreme Court Ruling.

Post by Wyzack » #99435

Mosquitoman you really need to stop basing your arguments on assuming you know shit about people. It makes you look like an idiot. All I know about you is what you post on the forums, namely that you are a total ass when you disagree with someone. You on the other hand call everyone drug addled liberal college kids who believe the government is always right. Why?
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Re: Supreme Court Ruling.

Post by John_Oxford » #99444

For fucks sakes, i said don't fight, Stop being cunts. Both of you.
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Re: Supreme Court Ruling.

Post by Jacquerel » #99445

Honestly I'm surprised that watching this wasn't your intention, this is the only thing that could have resulted from posting this topic
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Re: Supreme Court Ruling.

Post by Wyzack » #99451

Yeah I'm gonna bow out, arguing on the Internet, special Olympics, ect
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Re: Supreme Court Ruling.

Post by John_Oxford » #99471

Jacquerel wrote:Honestly I'm surprised that watching this wasn't your intention, this is the only thing that could have resulted from posting this topic
I was hoping to have a civilized debate, not a shit flinging contest.

PlotTwist: it really was, but i wouldent want anyone to know that, now would i?
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TechnoAlchemist wrote:you where always right john, you where always right
>implying the admin conspiracy wasen't just confirmed by a admin.
see, i told you motherfuckers.
NikNakFlak wrote:this isn't a game you can't just post whenever you want
I don't even know what the fuck tg is.

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Re: Supreme Court Ruling.

Post by Timbrewolf » #99473

mosquitoman wrote:An0n3, you continue to typify the college educated dolt who never learns enough to realize what he doesn't know so outweighs what little he thinks he knows that it is much worse than knowing less than nothing about anything. Those are the final moans of an r-selected, low testosterone wimp. He'll pop some pills soon and return to semi-comatose state most kwans spend all their lives in.

I think you're just angry at people who have come out of the closet because you spent your childhood locked up in one by your parents.

Your combination of Jaden Smith-tier logic and /fit/ memes is pretty novel though. Tell me more.

So far we've got:

1) The gays = the illuminati
2) Socially outgoing people = brain defects, curable by electro-shock therapy
3) College / furthering education = a giant ruse, only makes you dumber
4) Testosterone = the cure to everything, the secret to understanding the truth
5) R-selected = I don't even know what the fuck this means to be honest

So what is the real secret to life then? You sit around snorting creatine off your personal trainer's dick, complaining about the gay agenda, and working at McDonald's all your life? Everyone else is a sheep?
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Re: Supreme Court Ruling.

Post by nsos » #99474

John_Oxford wrote:
Jacquerel wrote:Honestly I'm surprised that watching this wasn't your intention, this is the only thing that could have resulted from posting this topic
I was hoping to have a civilized debate, not a shit flinging contest.

PlotTwist: it really was, but i wouldent want anyone to know that, now would i?
your mistake was expecting a civilized debate on this forum
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Re: Supreme Court Ruling.

Post by Incomptinence » #99475

I doubt we will ever hear a sincere opinion from a memer as dank as mosquitoman.

I will say one thing however religions only ever incorporated marriage into themselves to deny it to people and therefore control them.
A young religion is basically a cult and acts just as badly as those around today, cutting pervasively into the primary human rituals to control people telling you to ostracize your own family for random offenses or "purity" etc. The roman persecution of early Christian touted so heavily isn't something special that is just a sensible response to a young religion they often start out so nasty and they were in part right look at how many native religions were stamped out.
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Re: Supreme Court Ruling.

Post by TheNightingale » #99480

An0n3 wrote:1) The gays = the illuminati
I can confirm that the gay agenda is working alongside the Illuminati. After we finish our tea party we're headed straight for the Pentagon to find out state secrets.
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Re: Supreme Court Ruling.

Post by Timbrewolf » #99482

Illuminate = to shine light on something
Illuminati lit "those with light on them"
Gay pride commonly uses a rainbow flag as their rallying symbol
A rainbow is formed when light is defracted through a prism or other intermediary
A prism is a pyramid
The illuminati eye is on a pyramid
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Re: Supreme Court Ruling.

Post by Incomptinence » #99483

If there is no fluoride in my water I won't be instantly turned gay right?
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Re: Supreme Court Ruling.

Post by Timbrewolf » #99485

Incomptinence wrote:If there is no fluoride in my water I won't be instantly turned gay right?
No but beware they still spray chemtrails full of gay flouride over people's neighborhoods to catch runaways like you.
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Re: Supreme Court Ruling.

Post by DemonFiren » #99491

Gay flouride made me think of ClF3.

I forgot this was the off-topic forum.
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Re: Supreme Court Ruling.

Post by mosquitoman » #99519

Incomptinence wrote:I doubt we will ever hear a sincere opinion from a memer as dank as mosquitoman.

I will say one thing however religions only ever incorporated marriage into themselves to deny it to people and therefore control them.
A young religion is basically a cult and acts just as badly as those around today, cutting pervasively into the primary human rituals to control people telling you to ostracize your own family for random offenses or "purity" etc. The roman persecution of early Christian touted so heavily isn't something special that is just a sensible response to a young religion they often start out so nasty and they were in part right look at how many native religions were stamped out.
Wrong. Marriage is supposed to be a reflection of a divine principle, that is the unity of the feminine and masculine element. You are looking at it from a perspective heavily distorted by the modern western world's concept of marriage that got tangled up with the legal system at some point. This notion of the chastity of marriage is unique to Christianity and a later addition at that. Now seeing that you've asked for a sincere opinion I will attempt to seriously explain why homosexuality is unnatural, and why homosexual marriage is a paradox, even if it all falls on deaf ears.

What is "natural" for human sexuality is determined by an higher archetype which transcendents all particular sexual manifestations. Those manifestations cannot but be limited compared to this transcendent ideal, and some are even contrary to it, for in relativity everything is possible, and that is definitely the case with homosexuality. Needless to say, the real significance of "marriage" in traditional societies has always been that of elevating mere human union (which in itself is rather mundane) to this higher archetype, and that is where the true beauty of the institution lies. Marriage is a sacred rite, not something people just do for the fun of it. That is why homosexuals are to be excluded from it, for there can be nothing "sacred" to something which is contrary to the divine in principle. If marriage is to be nothing other then an empty social custom we might as well scrap the whole thing altogether. And this is precisely what l1bruls want, but see, they now fall back to the fallacy I mentioned before, because in their zeal to show that marriage (as defined traditionally) is merely but a social custom devoid of true meaning they are now locked in the absurd (from their perspective) predicament of having to consider homosexual marriage as a "universal" right.
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Re: Supreme Court Ruling.

Post by Incomptinence » #99546

Reflection of a divine principle? When did god get married? When did Jesus get married? He didn't marry Mary are we counting all the celibate nuns who claim to be wed to god? That is like obscure catholic knowledge the nuns thing I doubt you even knew that. Most religions where gods get their bang on are polytheistic because well a goddess is an additional god.

You are just fishing random near straw man arguments of people who mean what they say to get a rise probably going between several rants from individuals of varying christian sects hence why you spout this tripe that makes no sense. Such transparent insincerity is flabbergasting if that was the joke you were trying to tell congratulations you are a joke.

Marriages are huge ceremonies wherever they occur not just in christian countries, virginity is a huge point in many theologies vestal virgins of Rome were a pagan thing originally most of the huge douches caring about chaste waifus are probably non christian at this point. How is homosexual marriage a paradox there is no natural law forcing them apart they aren't bloody magnets. Many social customs are empty without the people behind them they require participants and witnesses all of whom are human some of the worst laws in the modern era assume a collaboration like a corporation has it's own person hood and the culpability and will implied therein yet if you take the people it treats like trash away it is nothing just some ghost in the paperwork. If marriage was a divine act ordained by a will dominant over the state of the universe where does it occur with non human species some of which are far more monogamous than us? Are there aliens with triple genders somewhere out there having marriages of two due to some unfathomable drive? Is marriage just a slot in some holy invisible enzyme waiting for humans to slop into it like giant walking proteins? What is the worth of the divinity of marriage in the face of divine forgiveness and salvation is it just points scoring like life is an old Atari game? Homosexuality has been observed occurring among animals yet marriage has not which one is more natural?
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Re: Supreme Court Ruling.

Post by mosquitoman » #99604

Incomptinence wrote:Reflection of a divine principle? When did god get married? When did Jesus get married? He didn't marry Mary are we counting all the celibate nuns who claim to be wed to god? That is like obscure catholic knowledge the nuns thing I doubt you even knew that. Most religions where gods get their bang on are polytheistic because well a goddess is an additional god.
We're not talking about the personal form of God and you don't understand polytheism. This is a matter of reflecting the unity of masculine and feminine elements (yin and yang, the root of all duality) in the Absolute by a union of a man and a woman in the relative world. Like all else, it's a realization of a metaphysical principle.

BTW, if you want to better understand polytheistic traditions, you have to realise there is no such thing as multiple "Gods", only different aspects of the same prime principle (the Absolute, the Good, etc) which are one and the same on the level of their divinity. This is and has always been the case in any "polytheistic" religion from Hindu to ancient Greek beliefs. Having it otherwise would not only not make much sense logically (for how can you have more than one Absolute, that is the most perfect from of being?) but also metaphysically (how can reality be predicated upon more than one form of "being"? Can things "be" in more than sense? Clearly not).
Incomptinence wrote: Marriages are huge ceremonies wherever they occur not just in christian countries, virginity is a huge point in many theologies vestal virgins of Rome were a pagan thing originally most of the huge douches caring about chaste waifus are probably non christian at this point. How is homosexual marriage a paradox there is no natural law forcing them apart they aren't bloody magnets. Many social customs are empty without the people behind them they require participants and witnesses all of whom are human some of the worst laws in the modern era assume a collaboration like a corporation has it's own person hood and the culpability and will implied therein yet if you take the people it treats like trash away it is nothing just some ghost in the paperwork. If marriage was a divine act ordained by a will dominant over the state of the universe where does it occur with non human species some of which are far more monogamous than us? Are there aliens with triple genders somewhere out there having marriages of two due to some unfathomable drive? Is marriage just a slot in some holy invisible enzyme waiting for humans to slop into it like giant walking proteins? What is the worth of the divinity of marriage in the face of divine forgiveness and salvation is it just points scoring like life is an old Atari game? Homosexuality has been observed occurring among animals yet marriage has not which one is more natural?
Your definition of what is "natural" or not is naturalistic, and it has nothing to do with nature properly so called. For to say "nature" is to say cause or essence, and the only cause of contingent things lies in that which transcends contingency (quite obviously). The error of naturalism is that of looking at the effect as if there were no cause (or to think contingency could be its own cause, which is the fallacy of evolution). Homosexuality would still be unnatural even if we were to prove that homosexuals are born that way.
Only human possess the divine spark, that is there are both transcendent and fallen elements to their nature, so obviously only in them can be that divine principle realized. This is a matter of qualitative, and not quantitative difference between the man and animals, differently than what modern relativism/evolutionism/atheism has proposed as one of its dogmas.
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Re: Supreme Court Ruling.

Post by Amnestik » #99605

mosquitoman wrote:This is a matter of reflecting the unity of masculine and feminine elements (yin and yang, the root of all duality) in the Absolute by a union of a man and a woman in the relative world. Like all else, it's a realization of a metaphysical principle.
According to who?
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Re: Supreme Court Ruling.

Post by Incomptinence » #99641

Yin and yang from the country that brought you foot binding plainly people who expected a woman to disfigure herself for the sake of marriage understand gender the best. Polytheistic religions do not need the divine to lean on a crutch of universal good their deities can have humanly comprehensible emotional drives there can be deities DEDICATED to the opposite of good or your primary god may require say human sacrifice. Not to say they never aggregate objects of worship into blobs of contradictory motivation with "aspects" from time to time things change philosophies are no different.

The whole point of divinity is it is not natural the allegory about the watch maker toted by creationists is perfect for revealing their position that the universe is a colossal work of high minded artifice. Natural if it's meaning can be blurred to being of nature yet transcendent among it can also apply to all works of man making it meaningless. Going by this belief the universe must be divinely planned and generated by a guiding will which plotted out all we see in nature before us gays must be planned therefor they are a fully intentional product if proven to be naturally occurring. Will we scorn stones next for not being perfectly round? After all the mathematical concept of a sphere is so perfect it must be divinely ordained and larger heavenly bodies strive to get closer to this shape. Are craggy asteroids an abomination?

I find it near impossible to believe you are some sort of new age creationist homophobe with near all embracing belief that all religions are partially true digging deep into eastern philosophy. It's like you are some sort of inbred hippy if you are serious.
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Re: Supreme Court Ruling.

Post by mosquitoman » #99650

God cannot have human characteristics, or any kind of imperfect characteristics at all for that matter, otherwise it's not God. Plato explains it best:

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/1497/1497-h/1497-h.htm
And if a poet writes of the sufferings of Niobe—the subject of the tragedy in which these iambic verses occur—or of the house of Pelops, or of the Trojan war or on any similar theme, either we must not permit him to say that these are the works of God, or if they are of God, he must devise some explanation of them such as we are seeking; he must say that God did what was just and right, and they were the better for being punished; but that those who are punished are miserable, and that God is the author of their misery—the poet is not to be permitted to say; though he may say that the wicked are miserable because they require to be punished, and are benefited by receiving punishment from God; but that God being good is the author of evil to any one is to be strenuously denied, and not to be said or sung or heard in verse or prose by any one whether old or young in any well-ordered commonwealth. Such a fiction is suicidal, ruinous, impious.
God is simply incapable of being less than perfect in all aspects by his nature. You can also see that even though he refers to different aspects of God, such as Athene or Zeus (not necessarily by name but by actions), in the end he's talking about only one God, contrarily to the shallow understanding of the Greek religion that's being commonly taught in schools. Same goes for hinduism or any other "polytheistic" (on the surface) religion. Those "Gods" were never understood or treated as separate entities until their civilization grew corrupted and decadent. That shallow and nonsensical understanding is what most modern people derive from that though.

If you feel like learning some more, this concept is further explained here: http://www.sophia-perennis.com/evil.pdf

Creationism is a load of crap focused on the relative universe and trying to enclose God in it like it's some kind of a powerful wizard, it makes about as much sense as atheism, no wonder they're eternally locked in their fruitless struggle (in the USA).

For obvious reasons you can't expect particular instances of objects in relativity have perfect characteristics in any regard as you describe ("Will we scorn stones next for not being perfectly round?"). The mathematical concept of a sphere is in fact perfect, and that's precisely it's a mathematical concept, not a concrete entity anchored in relativity. As any science, geometry can be focused on the Absolute and abstract, or on the relative and concrete, and Plato sees that the first kind is infinitely superior to the latter:
Yes, I said, but for that purpose a very little of either geometry or calculation will be enough; the question relates rather to the greater and more advanced part of geometry—whether that tends in any degree to make more easy the vision of the idea of good; and thither, as I was saying, all things tend which compel the soul to turn her gaze towards that place, where is the full perfection of being, which she ought, by all means, to behold.

True, he said.

Then if geometry compels us to view being, it concerns us; if becoming only, it does not concern us?

Yes, that is what we assert.

Yet anybody who has the least acquaintance with geometry will not deny that such a conception of the science is in flat contradiction to the ordinary language of geometricians.

How so?

They have in view practice only, and are always speaking, in a narrow and ridiculous manner, of squaring and extending and applying and the like—they confuse the necessities of geometry with those of daily life; whereas knowledge is the real object of the whole science.

Certainly, he said.

Then must not a further admission be made?

What admission?

That the knowledge at which geometry aims is knowledge of the eternal, and not of aught perishing and transient.
So, my friend, I do not blame you for instinctively refusing the truth in perennial philosophy or in philosophy of any kind in general. You seem to have a lot of misconceptions that are common for everyone living in the modern west and absorbing all sorts of bullshit they teach at schools and repeat in tv nowadays, I'll be more than happy to clear them if need be. I do not really expect that you've read a single page of anything related to theology or metaphysics in your life, or if you did, it was the modernist gibberish that you weren't aware is poisonous to the soul.
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Re: Supreme Court Ruling.

Post by Steelpoint » #99652

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Re: Supreme Court Ruling.

Post by CPTANT » #99659

Your subjective interpretations about divinity have no meaning to me, for I do not share your belief.

To the law a marriage IS just a legal union of 2 people, your opinions about why it is "so much more" are irrelevant and completely separate from lawmaking.

Why are you trying to apply concepts of god and divinity on a secular state? Those arguments are fallacious by default in matters of law.

There is no argument against this that is not based on religious principles.
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Re: Supreme Court Ruling.

Post by mosquitoman » #99662

It's not the issue of the legal construct that ticks off anyone religious here, it's the l1brul agenda behind it, which is a normalization of which is and should be seen as deviant behaviour. Anyone who understands the metaphysical underpinning of this argument will not seek to extirpate homosexuality in fact, particularly considering such a thing is basically impossible, but will attempt, as best as can be hoped for in this world of corruption, to uphold the norm and respect the natural equilibrium of the cosmos, the specific object of tradition being that of recreating this equilibrium in our earthly existence as well. This is what makes marriage a sacred rite, this institution being merely an attempt to recreated on earth what exists eternally at a divine level. Hence, why the "normalization" of homosexuality (and not homosexuality as such) is seen as a threat, since it seeks to subvert the norm directly while rendering the entire concept of marriage redundant in the process. I don't need to point out that the the same argument can be applied to the issue of abortion as well.

At this point you may well ask, how does one know that there exist such a cosmic order in the first place? And the answer lies in metaphysical principles, which can only be apprehended by means of this supra-rational faculty which some refer to as "intellection". If you think this explanation is insufficient, your only alternative is relativism, because any rational attempt to explain truths of an absolute order will fall into contradiction. "The Tao that can be named in not the eternal Tao". If you cannot accept that, then the door of l1brulism awaits you.
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Re: Supreme Court Ruling.

Post by CPTANT » #99668

mosquitoman wrote:It's not the issue of the legal construct that ticks off anyone religious here, it's the l1brul agenda behind it, which is a normalization of which is and should be seen as deviant behaviour. Anyone who understands the metaphysical underpinning of this argument will not seek to extirpate homosexuality in fact, particularly considering such a thing is basically impossible, but will attempt, as best as can be hoped for in this world of corruption, to uphold the norm and respect the natural equilibrium of the cosmos, the specific object of tradition being that of recreating this equilibrium in our earthly existence as well. This is what makes marriage a sacred rite, this institution being merely an attempt to recreated on earth what exists eternally at a divine level. Hence, why the "normalization" of homosexuality (and not homosexuality as such) is seen as a threat, since it seeks to subvert the norm directly while rendering the entire concept of marriage redundant in the process. I don't need to point out that the the same argument can be applied to the issue of abortion as well.

At this point you may well ask, how does one know that there exist such a cosmic order in the first place? And the answer lies in metaphysical principles, which can only be apprehended by means of this supra-rational faculty which some refer to as "intellection". If you think this explanation is insufficient, your only alternative is relativism, because any rational attempt to explain truths of an absolute order will fall into contradiction. "The Tao that can be named in not the eternal Tao". If you cannot accept that, then the door of l1brulism awaits you.
your reaction to me stating religious arguments were inadmissible was literally to state more religious arguments.

Also I reject every thing you just said on the basis of being blabbering without any form of provided evidence about its basic premisses.
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Re: Supreme Court Ruling.

Post by XSI » #99673

mosquitoman wrote: (...) Needless to say, the real significance of "marriage" in traditional societies has always been that of elevating mere human union (which in itself is rather mundane) to this higher archetype, and that is where the true beauty of the institution lies. Marriage is a sacred rite, not something people just do for the fun of it. That is why homosexuals are to be excluded from it, for there can be nothing "sacred" to something which is contrary to the divine in principle. If marriage is to be nothing other then an empty social custom we might as well scrap the whole thing altogether. And this is precisely what l1bruls want, but see, they now fall back to the fallacy I mentioned before, because in their zeal to show that marriage (as defined traditionally) is merely but a social custom devoid of true meaning they are now locked in the absurd (from their perspective) predicament of having to consider homosexual marriage as a "universal" right.
This guy knows whats up with marriage that is pissing off people about gay marriage. Sadly they're not as annoyed about divorces and people marrying 3+ times, so you know, hypocrisy on their end
CPTANT wrote:Your subjective interpretations about divinity have no meaning to me, for I do not share your belief.

To the law a marriage IS just a legal union of 2 people, your opinions about why it is "so much more" are irrelevant and completely separate from lawmaking.

Why are you trying to apply concepts of god and divinity on a secular state? Those arguments are fallacious by default in matters of law.

There is no argument against this that is not based on religious principles.
And this is the thing society has with it. Loads of people stopped seeing marriage as a religious thing, and more as a social bond and fun ceremony to celebrate being with someone you love(And get tax bonusses and perks for). In fact, a whole lot of people just plain stopped seeing religion as being worthwhile and plenty don't believe in that stuff.
So for the law? Sure, make gay pairings legal for the law, or remove the legal parts of marriage so it is a purely religious thing. But it seems that most people don't give much of a fuck past wanting the law to be equal for everyone(Or so they say at least, there's plenty who only claim it)

Personally I say just detach marriage from all legal systems because just having it in laws discriminates against those who don't marry, and that also solves the whole gay marriage situation.
Last edited by XSI on Sun Jun 28, 2015 2:07 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Supreme Court Ruling.

Post by mosquitoman » #99674

What basic premises? We're talking here about an issue that is metaphysical at its core, so obviously all arguments necessarily have to be metaphysical in nature, or they're irrelevant. I said, nobody's bothered by what's recognized by some country's legal system (unless they're looking only at consequences as if there was no cause). Even the "God hates fags" variety of protesters are deep down bothered by the metaphysical implications, they're just uninformed and don't realize what it is that they're truly opposed to.
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Re: Supreme Court Ruling.

Post by Jacquerel » #99678

There's nothing metaphysical about marriage or being gay, I know you want to insist otherwise but that doesn't make it true.
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Re: Supreme Court Ruling.

Post by mosquitoman » #99682

Can you elaborate why you think that?
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Re: Supreme Court Ruling.

Post by Lumbermancer » #99685

mosquitoman wrote:which is a normalization of which is and should be seen as deviant behaviour
You're clueless. Deviant behaviour is by definition a behaviour that deviates from current societal norms. If societal norms changed, then it is no longer a deviant behaviour.

Instead of building flimsy arguments on false premises, you should yell at clouds or something.
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Re: Supreme Court Ruling.

Post by mosquitoman » #99689

Lumbermancer wrote:
mosquitoman wrote:which is a normalization of which is and should be seen as deviant behaviour
You're clueless. Deviant behaviour is by definition a behaviour that deviates from current societal norms. If societal norms changed, then it is no longer a deviant behaviour.

Instead of building flimsy arguments on false premises, you should yell at clouds or something.
We're talking about objective Truth, not what is acceptable according to the largest number of people at this moment. What you're thinking of is called opinion.
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Re: Supreme Court Ruling.

Post by Jacquerel » #99694

mosquitoman wrote:Can you elaborate why you think that?
Because they're purely human inventions, and not echoed anywhere else. Nothing ties marriage or the experience of categorising attraction back to the function of the universe in any way. They're just social ideas.
mosquitoman wrote:We're talking about objective Truth, not what is acceptable according to the largest number of people at this moment. What you're thinking of is called opinion.
What you're saying is also an opinion. Declaring that your opinion is an objective truth does not actually make that the case, and it's also something literally anyone could do at any time.
You've not bothered backing up any of your ridiculous conspiracy theories with anything approaching fact and when asked just say that we should try and figure it out ourselves, because it's too deep and we probably wouldn't get it.
There's nothing objective about that, it's just an indicator of a lack of actual depth to any of your beliefs.
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Re: Supreme Court Ruling.

Post by DemonFiren » #99702

And here we go. Lock this before it devolves.
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Re: Supreme Court Ruling.

Post by mosquitoman » #99705

Here's Plato (again) on the difference about knowledge (of Truth) and opinion:
Do we admit the existence of opinion?

Undoubtedly.

As being the same with knowledge, or another faculty?

Another faculty.

Then opinion and knowledge have to do with different kinds of matter corresponding to this difference of faculties?

Yes.

And knowledge is relative to being and knows being.
Truth is independent of anything else, being objective and necessary. It doesn't matter if the truth of something was already discovered, or if it's accepted by anyone; it's true nonetheless. What you're trying to say is that I'm just sharing my opinions, which can be neither true nor false, about certain metaphysical principles, but how can I have an opinion on that which is either true or false? You can't have an opinion about gravity; it either exists or doesn't, and it doesn't care if you believe in it or not. So either what I'm saying is true, and I am right, or it is false, and I am wrong. What remains is for you to try to refute what I'm saying on metaphysical grounds, which is no small task.
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Re: Supreme Court Ruling.

Post by DemonFiren » #99709

Bullshit isn't really metaphysical, though, and I'm sure Plato saw gay relationships as normal.
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Re: Supreme Court Ruling.

Post by Wyzack » #99714

The burden of proof is on the claiment, you cannot say that homosexuality is wrong based on a divine objective principal that you assure us exists and then tell us to prove you wrong
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Re: Supreme Court Ruling.

Post by Drynwyn » #99718

i desperately want to believe that Mosquitoman is trolling, but I'm afraid he isn't.
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Re: Supreme Court Ruling.

Post by mosquitoman » #99722

DemonFiren wrote:Bullshit isn't really metaphysical, though, and I'm sure Plato saw gay relationships as normal.
He didn't, at all. Common misconception. I would like to see anything that would even suggest that the issue at hand might not have its root in metaphysics. I shared why I think it does, why don't you?
Wyzack wrote:The burden of proof is on the claiment, you cannot say that homosexuality is wrong based on a divine objective principal that you assure us exists and then tell us to prove you wrong
So for you it's ultimately a question of atheism, isn't it? If it is, you can easily prove me wrong, by either disproving the existence of God completely, or showing that there's no objectivity. But if you say there's no objective truth to be discovered or known, then all that remains are opinions, and they're all equally valid. So whatever you say is as true as anyone else might say about any given subject.
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Re: Supreme Court Ruling.

Post by Jacquerel » #99728

If you knew anything about actual logic and debate mosquito, you'd know that the onus is to prove something, not to prove its negative.
You're the one making the outlandish claim (that marriage is somehow metaphysical), the onus is not on us to prove that you are wrong.
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Re: Supreme Court Ruling.

Post by mosquitoman » #99729

I have thousands of years of religious traditions all over the world that prove that. What do you have?

And indeed, it is on you to prove that it isn't since the whole premise here is that it doesn't matter who marries who and the whole thing is basically a sham. So if it is, why fight so hard to have it as a "universal" right?
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Re: Supreme Court Ruling.

Post by Wyzack » #99732

Now this we can agree on. Attempting to prove god doesn't exist is as absurd as attempting to prove that he does exist. Unless something unprecedented happens nothing will ever give in either direction in that regard.

As to your second point, yes I believe that anyone's opinions are as valid as anyone else's. Hell, even things we think we know for sure by scientific experimentation are only true until something comes along to disprove them.

He issue lies where people's opinions infringe on the freedom of others, and they think they are more correct or more right or drivin by riteous divine purpose. That is when people get oppressed and people start killing other people. I firmly believe that people should be able to gold whatever opinions they want as long as they do not try to push them on other people.

In other news I am quite happy that the quality of discussion has improved significantly
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Re: Supreme Court Ruling.

Post by Drynwyn » #99735

mosquitoman wrote:I have thousands of years of religious traditions all over the world that prove that. What do you have?
Logical fallacy, appeal to tradition. Tradition proves nothing. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_tradition
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Re: Supreme Court Ruling.

Post by Jacquerel » #99736

Religious tradition isn't "proof" of anything. It only proves that people have believed something for years, not that it is true.
They also didn't believe the same thing, so it's not actually proof of that either.
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Re: Supreme Court Ruling.

Post by Steelpoint » #99740

People used to believe for a long time that leaches were a critical method of medical practice, that sniffing herbs could stop germs in the air and that someone drowning was indicative of them not being a witch, that does not mean they are right.

But don't let me stop the popcorn march.
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Re: Supreme Court Ruling.

Post by Jacquerel » #99742

Can anyone prove conclusively that I am not an eleven foot tall, invisible, fire-breathing dragon?
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Re: Supreme Court Ruling.

Post by Steelpoint » #99743

Jacquerel wrote:Can anyone prove conclusively that I am not an eleven foot tall, invisible, fire-breathing dragon?
My feelings say otherwise.
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Re: Supreme Court Ruling.

Post by mosquitoman » #99744

Wyzack wrote: He issue lies where people's opinions infringe on the freedom of others, and they think they are more correct or more right or drivin by riteous divine purpose. That is when people get oppressed and people start killing other people. I firmly believe that people should be able to gold whatever opinions they want as long as they do not try to push them on other people.
This is the problem with moral relativism though, because if everyone's opinion is equal, why even view killing or oppression as wrong? Clearly someone benefits from it somehow, so why not allow it, if morality is subjective?
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mosquitoman wrote:I have thousands of years of religious traditions all over the world that prove that. What do you have?
Logical fallacy, appeal to tradition. Tradition proves nothing. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_tradition
Do you sit with wikipedia's list of logical fallacies open in another tab and try to match what you see to the list? That's no way to have a discussion about anything. Appeal to wikipedia, huh?
Jacquerel wrote:Religious tradition isn't "proof" of anything. It only proves that people have believed something for years, not that it is true.
They also didn't believe the same thing, so it's not actually proof of that either.
They did and it is, what other information do we have about human spirituality? You can use pure and direct intellection, which is another brand of supra-rational faculty, as I mentioned in another post, but clearly no one here is capable of that. You can't use rationalism to prove that which by nature is beyond mere rational knowledge.
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