terranaut wrote:
Why do you think it is this way? Are other projects the same, or is this a /tg/ only issue? I keep hearing "fuck coders" even from friends who haven't been involved in any way with /tg/ for several years. When they think back to their time on /tg/, this is the response I get. I don't feel like this was an issue remotely as strongly when we were on TGMC. I might just be wrong but in my impression, aside from a few outliers, people were much more chill. Is it because the project was smaller and everybody was more involved with each other? Because nobody preached this whole "the seperation of codebase and administration is absolute" nonsense?
I can't speak for TGMC, but as someone who works professionally on games--no, this is not a /tg/ only issue. A belief that there is a disconnect between developers and players is something that is extremely common in games as a whole. In fact, it's very much not uncommon to hear game designers openly talk about players "not knowing what they want". It's true, in a sense, though the wording of that is of course fairly hostile.
Player feedback
is important, but not in the sense that you might think. Players know what problems they have--if swaths of people say "the shotgun isn't fun to use", then they're right. However, where it starts to break down is with regards to
solutions. If players say "the shotgun isn't fun to use, it doesn't do enough damage"--the implicit (and sometimes explicit) suggestion there is "make the shotgun do more damage". Suggestions like this are pretty much always thought up by designers first, but pushed away for more complex reason. For example, maybe your analytics show the shotgun does more damage than anything else, so that's obviously not the right answer.
Furthermore, a lot of controversial changes are made because developers think it will contribute to the overall health of the game. The cloning removal was despised when it came out, but over time medical doctor is now one of the most developed jobs on the station, and has THE most players aside from Assistant.
Nothing I said in the above is specific to SS13. What might make it feel different is because in games
in general, you have a faceless company/studio that produces it. In SS13, and in my opinion--
especially on /tg/, every coder who works on any controversial feature has a face directly attached to them. A voice. A voice that, after being surrounded by hostile players and worse, other hostile developers, eventually gets sick of it and realizes that blatantly saying "I don't care what you think" doesn't actually have any consequences at the time. Compound that with the fact that professional game designers tend to be taught, or learn through example, some basic strategies on how to talk to communities, etc (or of course, have a pay check relying on it!).
terranaut wrote:
Most importantly, what can be done to get rid of this absolutely mindstaggering resentment players seem to have for coders? Of course you're not wrong, some people are just gonna complain and whine no matter what. What about valid complaints? I made a snarky comment somewhere, I think in the deleted quote chain, asking if the new ui still randomly dies and crashes, forcing you to restart the game (and sit through the 30 second wait if you're not a byond member). That's terrible for any number of reasons for all kinds of people interacting with the server in any capacity. I don't recall how long ago it was added nor do I really care how long exactly it has been, but we're talking about years. Why is this ok?
As I said before--I believe this resentment from both sides comes from a cycle of players react hostile to developers -> developers react hostile back to players (because there is no obvious consequence) -> players react even more hostile to developers -> developers react even more hostile to players, etc. The answer to this is one that would very likely never actually hit a server like /tg/--actual hard enforcement of rules against toxicity on
both ends. I think everyone would say they don't want this because it's a dramatic shift of culture (and would feel like censorship to some), but it's reasonably the only way to get both sides to stop hurling shit at each other.
terranaut wrote:
Why wasn't whatever broke it reverted (or if it was the original PR, why wasn't that reverted until it was fixed)? Why do coders, in turn, get pikachu faced when players end up thinking all coders are assholes when you get called an entitled pissbaby for bringing stuff like this up or salting in deadchat because you died in the random 30 second timeout you're forced to sit through occasionally, or any other number of existing problems?
I don't have any comments about UI, but no coder is surprised when shit is flung at them, that's why shit gets flung back. If anything, it's the exact same feeling players feel--exhaustion. Players are exhausted when they feel like they are not listened to, that the game is being dumbed down and made less fun, that their favorite features are being removed, and whatnot. Coders are exhausted because it feels like nothing they do gets anything but abuse hurled at them, that they can't make any changes they feel are beneficial to the health of the game if they are controversial, etc. We're all humans in the end!
As per the whole drama--I don't have any interesting thoughts. Personally, I don't care that much about the power dynamics of a host leading coderbus--MSO is a smart person, treats adminbus well, and in practice already has a pretty large say on what happens (it's why slips were fixed as quickly as they were). I simply care that the person who wants to lead us is someone who constantly gets frustrated and ends up ruining morale on the coderbus side, which will only exacerbate problems of hostility between coders and players. Like that one comic I can never find of a husband screaming at his wife, the wife then screaming at her kid, and the kid screaming at their pet. Oh, I'm also a tad annoyed that I can't run playtests as easily anymore or update the servers.