Bottom post of the previous page:
Weirdest Ban Appeal I've ever seen, also what a harsh admin jeez bro. Sybil moment.viewtopic.php?f=7&t=31566
I saw this i just HAD to make a peanut of it
Bottom post of the previous page:
Weirdest Ban Appeal I've ever seen, also what a harsh admin jeez bro. Sybil moment.Just turn off the computer so they can't cyberbully you anymore
Correction: You cannot start a complaint where the subject is the admin's banning conduct (meaning you are not documenting a genuine pattern of targeting/etc), unless your appeal is successful.NecromancerAnne wrote: ↑Tue May 03, 2022 2:10 am I think this stems from "if you appealed a ban/note you can't use that as the subject of a complaint" even if that would mean accumulating bans is the safer option so you can make a complaint about it if you think you're being unfairly treated. This whole thing needs re-evaluation.
Head Coder of /tg/station, hi!Shaps-cloud wrote: ↑Mon Dec 07, 2020 7:59 am May eventually become one of the illusive maintainer-headmins if they choose to pursue that path, having a coder in the senior admin leadership has usually been positive for both sides in the past.
There's also a total lack of way to raise complaints with an admin's in-game behaviour, too. Unless it's egregious enough to warrant a Note or Ban (which the standards of which are probably going to be a little bit higher, because placing such against another admin probably seems incredibly daunting, especially due to the scrutiny that then puts on them) there's pretty much nothing you can do, even though admins should be held to a higher standard, and be the example of Good Behaviour. I've been a little tempted to make a policy thread suggesting we allow that in admin complaints (the rules specifically say they're only for Moderation and Administrative Abuse), but I see it being shut down instantly with "Do you really think people won't abuse it".NecromancerAnne wrote: ↑Tue May 03, 2022 2:10 am Actually one thing I will say on the parting words of the appeal. I actually think the whole admin ban appeal/admin complaint system is fucking flawed as hell. Know that if this was separated into an appeal AND a complaint on separate cases of misconduct this might have been potentially dismissed, because that kind of behaviour was usually derided behind the scenes. It was seen as being a complainer over the ban. It's not an intuitive process either, since a systematic targeting from an admin like this would probably mean that any administrative action from them would potentially be connected to the subject of the appeal.
I think this stems from "if you appealed a ban/note you can't use that as the subject of a complaint" even if that would mean accumulating bans is the safer option so you can make a complaint about it if you think you're being unfairly treated. This whole thing needs re-evaluation.
I don’t think Tyler ever developed object permanence based on that tweetMisdoubtful wrote: ↑Tue May 03, 2022 5:33 amJust turn off the computer so they can't cyberbully you anymore
What exactly do you have in mind that you would want to report on?CMDR_Gungnir wrote: ↑Tue May 03, 2022 7:21 amThere's also a total lack of way to raise complaints with an admin's in-game behaviour, too. Unless it's egregious enough to warrant a Note or Ban (which the standards of which are probably going to be a little bit higher, because placing such against another admin probably seems incredibly daunting, especially due to the scrutiny that then puts on them) there's pretty much nothing you can do, even though admins should be held to a higher standard, and be the example of Good Behaviour. I've been a little tempted to make a policy thread suggesting we allow that in admin complaints (the rules specifically say they're only for Moderation and Administrative Abuse), but I see it being shut down instantly with "Do you really think people won't abuse it".NecromancerAnne wrote: ↑Tue May 03, 2022 2:10 am Actually one thing I will say on the parting words of the appeal. I actually think the whole admin ban appeal/admin complaint system is fucking flawed as hell. Know that if this was separated into an appeal AND a complaint on separate cases of misconduct this might have been potentially dismissed, because that kind of behaviour was usually derided behind the scenes. It was seen as being a complainer over the ban. It's not an intuitive process either, since a systematic targeting from an admin like this would probably mean that any administrative action from them would potentially be connected to the subject of the appeal.
I think this stems from "if you appealed a ban/note you can't use that as the subject of a complaint" even if that would mean accumulating bans is the safer option so you can make a complaint about it if you think you're being unfairly treated. This whole thing needs re-evaluation.
Head Coder of /tg/station, hi!Shaps-cloud wrote: ↑Mon Dec 07, 2020 7:59 am May eventually become one of the illusive maintainer-headmins if they choose to pursue that path, having a coder in the senior admin leadership has usually been positive for both sides in the past.
I don't think Player Hub is exactly the place to recount the story, but maybe an admin's been toeing the line, maybe they actually are stepping over the rules but the admins involved don't want to deal with the situation because of the politics involved in noting/banning another admin. Perhaps there's a pattern in their admin conduct that's not particularly ideal, but their in-game conduct furthers that pattern. Having the ability to bring those behaviours to light would benefit. It'd still be up to the Headmins whether or not to do anything, and it'd still have to have a rather strict "Don't abuse this" clause, because I can see and agree a lot of people going "I don't like this admin they banned me, so I'm going to admin-complaint them for forgetting to put a timer on my brig cell during Rev-Blob-Wizard-Ops", but I think it'd be good for people to have a way to raise concerns. Maybe make it like Admin Applications where it can't be seen by most. People should be able to say "Hey, I'm a little bit concerned about this" and get it at least SOME attention, without having to just DM a Headmin and go "Hey can I talk about this?" especially for logging purposes, and avoiding potential Headmin Shopping (same reason you can't DM a specific admin and ask them to hop on and help with a ticket).Mothblocks wrote: ↑Tue May 03, 2022 7:25 amWhat exactly do you have in mind that you would want to report on?CMDR_Gungnir wrote: ↑Tue May 03, 2022 7:21 amThere's also a total lack of way to raise complaints with an admin's in-game behaviour, too. Unless it's egregious enough to warrant a Note or Ban (which the standards of which are probably going to be a little bit higher, because placing such against another admin probably seems incredibly daunting, especially due to the scrutiny that then puts on them) there's pretty much nothing you can do, even though admins should be held to a higher standard, and be the example of Good Behaviour. I've been a little tempted to make a policy thread suggesting we allow that in admin complaints (the rules specifically say they're only for Moderation and Administrative Abuse), but I see it being shut down instantly with "Do you really think people won't abuse it".NecromancerAnne wrote: ↑Tue May 03, 2022 2:10 am Actually one thing I will say on the parting words of the appeal. I actually think the whole admin ban appeal/admin complaint system is fucking flawed as hell. Know that if this was separated into an appeal AND a complaint on separate cases of misconduct this might have been potentially dismissed, because that kind of behaviour was usually derided behind the scenes. It was seen as being a complainer over the ban. It's not an intuitive process either, since a systematic targeting from an admin like this would probably mean that any administrative action from them would potentially be connected to the subject of the appeal.
I think this stems from "if you appealed a ban/note you can't use that as the subject of a complaint" even if that would mean accumulating bans is the safer option so you can make a complaint about it if you think you're being unfairly treated. This whole thing needs re-evaluation.
See I think you've got a good enough and actionable grasp on things, but what I was talking about was the impression I myself drew from the rule, and I feel like was enforced in previous terms. It's maybe equally confusing to players.Mothblocks wrote: ↑Tue May 03, 2022 7:16 am Correction: You cannot start a complaint where the subject is the admin's banning conduct (meaning you are not documenting a genuine pattern of targeting/etc), unless your appeal is successful.
One reading seems to prevent any complaints about conduct after an appeal has taken place but denied, if the subject was including banning conduct (which I think misconduct is included often in appeals). If someone did want to come back and highlight that there was a pattern of behaviour that was inclusive of the appealed ban as the catalyst, like this appeal was, then that could be closed as one interpretation. This means players could unwittingly lock themselves off from highlighting with patterned behaviour by making an appeal, or try and make an appeal later and attempt a complaint but also be burdened with a ban for the duration of a complaint, which tends to take longer to reconcile.MSO wrote:Alright, this is getting old, so im gonna end it once and for all.
New host ruling: Admin's banning conduct can not be the subject of an admin complaint. That is what appeals are for, and the appeal leading to the ban being overturn is the minimum bar required before a complaint can be filed that references the ban conduct.
Head Coder of /tg/station, hi!Shaps-cloud wrote: ↑Mon Dec 07, 2020 7:59 am May eventually become one of the illusive maintainer-headmins if they choose to pursue that path, having a coder in the senior admin leadership has usually been positive for both sides in the past.
Head Coder of /tg/station, hi!Shaps-cloud wrote: ↑Mon Dec 07, 2020 7:59 am May eventually become one of the illusive maintainer-headmins if they choose to pursue that path, having a coder in the senior admin leadership has usually been positive for both sides in the past.
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