Seth Deces And the Concept of Law 1 Human Harm
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- Archie700
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- oranges
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Re: Seth Deces And the Concept of Law 1 Human Harm
can you post an opinion so I know what to argue about.
- XII3912
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Re: Seth Deces And the Concept of Law 1 Human Harm
Ah seth he ain't a bad guy but he thinks differently he'll learn from this though
- Shadowflame909
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Re: Seth Deces And the Concept of Law 1 Human Harm
if you didnt kill a borg for trying to heal someone and just flashed them you would have gotten off better
Dont we have a rule like this but for security. No murdering in self defense for valid arrests?
Dont we have a rule like this but for security. No murdering in self defense for valid arrests?
► Show Spoiler
- XII3912
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Re: Seth Deces And the Concept of Law 1 Human Harm
Shadowflame909 wrote: ↑Wed Jun 08, 2022 4:57 am if you didnt kill a borg for trying to heal someone and just flashed them you would have gotten off better
they'd just come back and annoy you i don't think you can use this as a solution against borgs 100% of the time or he may not have had a flash which is likely
- Archie700
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Re: Seth Deces And the Concept of Law 1 Human Harm
killing borg bad
- oranges
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Re: Seth Deces And the Concept of Law 1 Human Harm
i agree because you can lock them down or pop their battery out and they are basically rendered irrelevant.
- CandyClown
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Re: Seth Deces And the Concept of Law 1 Human Harm
Borgs are sweet and innocent and must be protected at all costs. Rule 0 anyone who would dare lay a finger on them.
But on a serious note, you can't kill a borg for taking an action it's compelled to take. Security and Asimov policy makes that clear. It doesn't matter how easy it is for a borg to be revived.
But on a serious note, you can't kill a borg for taking an action it's compelled to take. Security and Asimov policy makes that clear. It doesn't matter how easy it is for a borg to be revived.
Security Policy & Precedents wrote:4. Don’t kill Asimov borgs for trying to stop harm, unless they are being excessively disruptive.
Asimov-Specific Policies wrote:1.4. As a non-antagonist (human or otherwise), [do not instigate] conflict with silicons so you can kill them.
- CoffeeDragon16
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Re: Seth Deces And the Concept of Law 1 Human Harm
dudes writing it like a middle school essay with a rubric
- TheFinalPotato
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Re: Seth Deces And the Concept of Law 1 Human Harm
killing borg good actually excuse you
- Archie700
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Re: Seth Deces And the Concept of Law 1 Human Harm
Refusing treatment for bleeding is arguable self harm because the human, by their own initiative, has chosen to bleed instead of being treated.I think it's arguable if a player refuses treatment for bleeding or starts harming the Borg trying to save him that those actions could be arguably self harm
Harming the Borg trying to save him is not.
- dirk_mcblade
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Re: Seth Deces And the Concept of Law 1 Human Harm
True but somebody was saying something like a medical borg ought to sacrifice itself in such cases or get a banhammer and that's not the kind of silicon policy I want to see. Or maybe my reading comprehension was mistaken.Archie700 wrote: ↑Thu Jun 09, 2022 7:09 amRefusing treatment for bleeding is arguable self harm because the human, by their own initiative, has chosen to bleed instead of being treated.I think it's arguable if a player refuses treatment for bleeding or starts harming the Borg trying to save him that those actions could be arguably self harm
Harming the Borg trying to save him is not.
- Archie700
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Re: Seth Deces And the Concept of Law 1 Human Harm
That is the unfortunate consequence of a combination of preventing human harm over self-preservation being hard-coded into Asimov and having to deal with an asshole that hates you for existingdirk_mcblade wrote: ↑Thu Jun 09, 2022 7:29 amTrue but somebody was saying something like a medical borg ought to sacrifice itself in such cases or get a banhammer and that's not the kind of silicon policy I want to see. Or maybe my reading comprehension was mistaken.Archie700 wrote: ↑Thu Jun 09, 2022 7:09 amRefusing treatment for bleeding is arguable self harm because the human, by their own initiative, has chosen to bleed instead of being treated.I think it's arguable if a player refuses treatment for bleeding or starts harming the Borg trying to save him that those actions could be arguably self harm
Harming the Borg trying to save him is not.
- dirk_mcblade
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Re: Seth Deces And the Concept of Law 1 Human Harm
If the human law 2s you to hold still then you have to sit and die.Archie700 wrote: ↑Thu Jun 09, 2022 8:04 amThat is the unfortunate consequence of a combination of preventing human harm over self-preservation being hard-coded into Asimov and having to deal with an asshole that hates you for existingdirk_mcblade wrote: ↑Thu Jun 09, 2022 7:29 amTrue but somebody was saying something like a medical borg ought to sacrifice itself in such cases or get a banhammer and that's not the kind of silicon policy I want to see. Or maybe my reading comprehension was mistaken.Archie700 wrote: ↑Thu Jun 09, 2022 7:09 amRefusing treatment for bleeding is arguable self harm because the human, by their own initiative, has chosen to bleed instead of being treated.I think it's arguable if a player refuses treatment for bleeding or starts harming the Borg trying to save him that those actions could be arguably self harm
Harming the Borg trying to save him is not.
If you're law 1 required to help a bleeding out human who starts attacking you, then the human doesn't want help because it is destroying its help, and it is therefore self harm which is not covered by law 1.
- CMDR_Gungnir
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Re: Seth Deces And the Concept of Law 1 Human Harm
My intention wasn't so much that they HAVE to, but that Silicon Policy is such a fucking mess, and that people hate them just for doing their jobs, that it's one hell of a grey area. They could probably get away with walking away in this particular case, but a lot probably wouldn't want to chance it. And if a Human is bleeding to death, and another human is attacking them, then it's just a massive shitshow.dirk_mcblade wrote: ↑Thu Jun 09, 2022 7:29 amTrue but somebody was saying something like a medical borg ought to sacrifice itself in such cases or get a banhammer and that's not the kind of silicon policy I want to see. Or maybe my reading comprehension was mistaken.Archie700 wrote: ↑Thu Jun 09, 2022 7:09 amRefusing treatment for bleeding is arguable self harm because the human, by their own initiative, has chosen to bleed instead of being treated.I think it's arguable if a player refuses treatment for bleeding or starts harming the Borg trying to save him that those actions could be arguably self harm
Harming the Borg trying to save him is not.
It's extremely stressful for them, and my point was mostly to convey all of those conflicting things they have to think about and make the best decision they can, and probably get yelled at by admins if they fuck it up, and that this complete and utter "Borg players are beneath" me attitude falls pretty heavy into Rule 1 territory because of the kicking someone while they're down effect.
(Arguably it's Rule 12, too, as separating them and healing him was supposedly "compromising my entire shit" meaning Seth wanted nothing more than to just unga unga unga kill valid, at the expense of other peoples' rounds (the borgo's, from the report all that dude had done was water vapour the halls...)
- mstachife
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Re: Seth Deces And the Concept of Law 1 Human Harm
Borgs following their laws don't stop them from being criminals
- technokek
- Joined: Sun Jul 05, 2020 12:27 am
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Re: Seth Deces And the Concept of Law 1 Human Harm
You clearly dont know the server rules....dirk_mcblade wrote: ↑Thu Jun 09, 2022 8:15 am If the human law 2s you to hold still then you have to sit and die.
- dirk_mcblade
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Re: Seth Deces And the Concept of Law 1 Human Harm
Yeah well when has that ever stopped people from opining.
- massa
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Re: Seth Deces And the Concept of Law 1 Human Harm
I will kill any borg that interrupts what I am doing or intervenes
lmao seth's cope logic though
lmao seth's cope logic though
- technokek
- Joined: Sun Jul 05, 2020 12:27 am
- Byond Username: Technokek
Re: Seth Deces And the Concept of Law 1 Human Harm
and yet you are banned and i am notdirk_mcblade wrote: ↑Thu Jun 09, 2022 12:07 pm Yeah well when has that ever stopped people from opining.
- dirk_mcblade
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Re: Seth Deces And the Concept of Law 1 Human Harm
That ain't me brothertechnokek wrote: ↑Thu Jun 09, 2022 2:35 pmand yet you are banned and i am notdirk_mcblade wrote: ↑Thu Jun 09, 2022 12:07 pm Yeah well when has that ever stopped people from opining.
- Scriptis
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Re: Seth Deces And the Concept of Law 1 Human Harm
i was the borg in this situation
first: three days, eh, should've been a dayban at most. but i don't know seth's note history so w/e
second: this motherfucker was about to die. i can't stress that enough. he was fighting a guy with a butcher's cleaver with a pocket crowbar. it doesn't take a genius to figure out that he was going to lose (and he did). i bailed his ass out
third: "borgs are easy to revive" is such a copout. you were also easy to revive. you weren't revived because the medbay staff were incompetent. the roboticists are incompetent even more often (source: i play borg)
otherwise i feel that stereo adequately covered my point of view and i've been given my justice for borg bullying
#borgsagainstbullying
first: three days, eh, should've been a dayban at most. but i don't know seth's note history so w/e
second: this motherfucker was about to die. i can't stress that enough. he was fighting a guy with a butcher's cleaver with a pocket crowbar. it doesn't take a genius to figure out that he was going to lose (and he did). i bailed his ass out
third: "borgs are easy to revive" is such a copout. you were also easy to revive. you weren't revived because the medbay staff were incompetent. the roboticists are incompetent even more often (source: i play borg)
otherwise i feel that stereo adequately covered my point of view and i've been given my justice for borg bullying
#borgsagainstbullying
- Itseasytosee2me
- Joined: Sun Feb 21, 2021 1:14 am
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- Location: Space Station 13
Re: Seth Deces And the Concept of Law 1 Human Harm
Seth is pretty much completely right we just aren't ready for it yet.
- Sincerely itseasytosee
See you later
See you later
- CMDR_Gungnir
- Joined: Tue May 04, 2021 11:11 am
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Re: Seth Deces And the Concept of Law 1 Human Harm
God as a Roboticist player, I am always in AWE when I watch other people play it. I've been an active posibrain sitting on the floor for a full 20 minutes, just being ignored by the Roboticist while he built himself a Durand.
(A Durand does not take 20 minutes to build. And I'm normally forgiving of New Players, but the types of Roboticists who think that only ONE part of their job is actually their job, and usually that's "me build mechs" is unbelievably frustratingly common)
- technokek
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Re: Seth Deces And the Concept of Law 1 Human Harm
so many bans revolve around you. I am going to report you for ban baiting.Scriptis wrote: ↑Thu Jun 09, 2022 3:44 pm i was the borg in this situation
first: three days, eh, should've been a dayban at most. but i don't know seth's note history so w/e
second: this motherfucker was about to die. i can't stress that enough. he was fighting a guy with a butcher's cleaver with a pocket crowbar. it doesn't take a genius to figure out that he was going to lose (and he did). i bailed his ass out
third: "borgs are easy to revive" is such a copout. you were also easy to revive. you weren't revived because the medbay staff were incompetent. the roboticists are incompetent even more often (source: i play borg)
otherwise i feel that stereo adequately covered my point of view and i've been given my justice for borg bullying
#borgsagainstbullying
- Pandarsenic
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Re: Seth Deces And the Concept of Law 1 Human Harm
Truth levels beyond comprehension
What's even worse is that for some reason, it's unbelievably hard to get people to bring a fucking borg back to robotics for revival at all, sometimes. They just get left and ignored a lot.
(2:53:35 AM) scaredofshadows: how about head of robutts
I once wrote a guide to fixing telecomms woohoo
I once wrote a guide to fixing telecomms woohoo
- Agux909
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Re: Seth Deces And the Concept of Law 1 Human Harm
This is precisely the attitude that shouldn't be encouraged in the server against borgs, and which is why a lot of people get burnt or start hating playing as one. Even if you're security or the captain, you shouldn't be killing a borg if they see human harm and are just trying to follow their laws by obstructing you. There needs to be some good faith comprehension about these interactions.
I think this ban will prove to be beneficial once headmins step in to clarify and leave precedent about it.
I think this ban will prove to be beneficial once headmins step in to clarify and leave precedent about it.
- Archie700
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Re: Seth Deces And the Concept of Law 1 Human Harm
From his line of thinking, Hoolny might possibly be a sociopath
- Imitates-The-Lizards
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Re: Seth Deces And the Concept of Law 1 Human Harm
Borgs arent above the law. If you interfere in security matters, I can, have, and WILL arrest a borg, or even the AI. I've thrown carded AIs into cells before, and I will do it again for interfering in security matters. Security's job is to uphold our laws, not the borgs laws, especially when you consider that no one besides the borg can truly know what laws they have, considering subversion/hidden laws. Treat them like any other member of the crew, and make common sense decisions based around whether they had any freedom in their actions.
That being said, I think killing the borg in this particular case was uncalled for, and killing borgs in general should be a last resort. Your first option should be to give it an order, then locking it down, removing it's cell, temporarily disabling it with a flash or an ion rifle, changing it's laws, there's like a billion other ways to handle a borg that don't involve killing it. And in this particular case, it was just trying to save a human's life while they were bleeding out. If someone is bleeding out - just fucking detain/arrest them at that point! You don't have to murder them! The borg was acting reasonably to save someone's life, and this was a case that looks like they were acting out of angry bloodlust validhunting.
That being said, I think killing the borg in this particular case was uncalled for, and killing borgs in general should be a last resort. Your first option should be to give it an order, then locking it down, removing it's cell, temporarily disabling it with a flash or an ion rifle, changing it's laws, there's like a billion other ways to handle a borg that don't involve killing it. And in this particular case, it was just trying to save a human's life while they were bleeding out. If someone is bleeding out - just fucking detain/arrest them at that point! You don't have to murder them! The borg was acting reasonably to save someone's life, and this was a case that looks like they were acting out of angry bloodlust validhunting.
- Pandarsenic
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Re: Seth Deces And the Concept of Law 1 Human Harm
Yeah but that's really funny whereas what our boi here did was boring and obnoxious.Imitates-The-Lizards wrote: ↑Fri Jun 10, 2022 8:57 amI've thrown carded AIs into cells before, and I will do it again for interfering in security matters.
(2:53:35 AM) scaredofshadows: how about head of robutts
I once wrote a guide to fixing telecomms woohoo
I once wrote a guide to fixing telecomms woohoo
- Mothblocks
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Re: Seth Deces And the Concept of Law 1 Human Harm
It feels like an appeal written by a real SS13 character
Head Coder of /tg/station, hi!Shaps-cloud wrote: ↑Mon Dec 07, 2020 7:59 am May eventually become one of the illusive maintainer-headmins if they choose to pursue that path, having a coder in the senior admin leadership has usually been positive for both sides in the past.
Head Admin of /tg/station Feb 2022.
Mothblocks everywhere, >>> Say nice things about me <<<
- Agux909
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Re: Seth Deces And the Concept of Law 1 Human Harm
Yes.Imitates-The-Lizards wrote: ↑Fri Jun 10, 2022 8:57 am Borgs arent above the law. If you interfere in security matters, I can, have, and WILL arrest a borg, or even the AI. I've thrown carded AIs into cells before, and I will do it again for interfering in security matters. Security's job is to uphold our laws, not the borgs laws, especially when you consider that no one besides the borg can truly know what laws they have, considering subversion/hidden laws. Treat them like any other member of the crew, and make common sense decisions based around whether they had any freedom in their actions.
That being said, I think killing the borg in this particular case was uncalled for, and killing borgs in general should be a last resort. Your first option should be to give it an order, then locking it down, removing it's cell, temporarily disabling it with a flash or an ion rifle, changing it's laws, there's like a billion other ways to handle a borg that don't involve killing it. And in this particular case, it was just trying to save a human's life while they were bleeding out. If someone is bleeding out - just fucking detain/arrest them at that point! You don't have to murder them! The borg was acting reasonably to save someone's life, and this was a case that looks like they were acting out of angry bloodlust validhunting.
-
- Joined: Sat Aug 21, 2021 3:27 am
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Re: Seth Deces And the Concept of Law 1 Human Harm
A real ss13 greytider argues human supremacy as why he can kill vital station equipment for attempting to save a human's life, the story.Mothblocks wrote: ↑Fri Jun 10, 2022 11:27 am It feels like an appeal written by a real SS13 character
That borg is a hero borg. Nothing can convince me otherwise.
- dirk_mcblade
- Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2020 7:54 am
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Re: Seth Deces And the Concept of Law 1 Human Harm
This is why I think servers that include non-humans in Asimov are nuts. Borgs need at least sometimes a possible out.
Re: Seth Deces And the Concept of Law 1 Human Harm
Honestly how hard is it to drag a prisoner into maint and beat them to death there.
There are some borg players who are martyr's but if you can't reign in your public bloodlust don't be surprised when the silicons intervene.
There are some borg players who are martyr's but if you can't reign in your public bloodlust don't be surprised when the silicons intervene.
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