Metagangs, Snubs, and Exclusion
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- RaveRadbury
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Metagangs, Snubs, and Exclusion
I've heard players claim that they've been excluded or ignored by metagangs and crew, especially on Manuel. I'd like to understand this phenomenon better. Would anyone be willing to share anecdotes of their experience? No fingers have to be pointed (and it would probably be better if names weren't named), but stories of it happening might better establish what the issues are and how they can be addressed.
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- Super Aggro Crag
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- Lacran
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Re: Metagangs, Snubs, and Exclusion
For me its usually groups of 3 or more people that have continual interactions between rounds, they'll pick different departments and then meet somewhere private and ignore their jobs, or pick the same department (medical usually) and just stand there swapping backstory minutiae or asking about other character/friendship specific info. These chats can go on the entire round and these players seem to treat interacting with other players, antagonists or responsibilities regarding their job as some sort of inconvenience they're above.
I've seen a large number of people see the pattern certain players do and try to integrate themselves into the clique but are usually met with rudeness which can even escalate into outright violence. Manuel cliques are almost always very hostile towards newer and inexperienced players.
It can also become very obvious who are in cliques when certain players discover the whiteship, only specific people will be allowed on board and they'll leave pretty quickly together to sit in the ship in the middle of space for the rest of the shift.
I wont say there are any admin specific cliques, because I haven't found any, but I do know admins that 100% are in or on good terms with certain cliques that have exhibited pretty toxic behaviour.
I've seen a large number of people see the pattern certain players do and try to integrate themselves into the clique but are usually met with rudeness which can even escalate into outright violence. Manuel cliques are almost always very hostile towards newer and inexperienced players.
It can also become very obvious who are in cliques when certain players discover the whiteship, only specific people will be allowed on board and they'll leave pretty quickly together to sit in the ship in the middle of space for the rest of the shift.
I wont say there are any admin specific cliques, because I haven't found any, but I do know admins that 100% are in or on good terms with certain cliques that have exhibited pretty toxic behaviour.
- Striders13
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Re: Metagangs, Snubs, and Exclusion
Once, when I played a character I've never played before I tried to hang out with the group of known statics in their maint pillow fort. When I arrived and said hi I was stunshoved and thrown away. These were the same people who are very friendly to me when I play my usual static.
- san7890
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Re: Metagangs, Snubs, and Exclusion
I’ve heard it being “worse” on Manuel but people lose sight of how hard it is to be the odd-one-out or the new guy who doesn’t get all the lingo and vibes from the start. Every social situation ever has been like that. The absolute best thing you can do is see people walk into the same pitfalls you once did (I guarantee you fell into at least one) and try your damndest to teach them and try and make good with them.
Here’s a fast, tangentially related story from Sybil: I was once the HoS, and I was gritting my teeth over not having de-prioritzed that job. However, I heard a voice over common:
I was the only one who did. No other appointments. I’m certain they would have gone SSD or slug around the entire shift wishing they went to another role (since I spoke to them after that), but I was able to catch them before they had such a slip. After a short appointment, hijinx ensued and snowballed into one of my most favorite shifts ever. It was mostly thanks to them.
You don’t have to give every new person a shot (it would be nice if you could), but if you see someone about to fall down a manhole… it would be best for all of us if you caught them before the big tumble. We’re all burnt out pieces of cold, molten steel here- so why not be a kinder person and ensure that those new, fireblooded individuals keep our legacy going. Everyone has that one player who helped them stay in the game and truly got them ingrained into and appreciative of the culture, now wouldn’t you like to be held in the same regards as those who came before you? Maybe even have your own name spoken about as fondly as you speak of your heroes? I know I do.
Here’s a fast, tangentially related story from Sybil: I was once the HoS, and I was gritting my teeth over not having de-prioritzed that job. However, I heard a voice over common:
My heart immediately shattered into one million pieces. I didn’t just feel bad for them, I immediately felt an outgushing of emotion remembering the times that I would sometimes go Psychologist to try out the new job and try and have some kitsch roleplay fun. I remembered all the stories I’ve heard about modern psychologists: that they simply don’t get to do anything. I remembered how I would just give up on the role, swipe some gear, and become a discount doctor. I didn’t get anyone to give me a chance to truly flesh that job out. So, I PDA’d them.Common: Hey crew, PDA me if you want a psychological evaluation!
I was the only one who did. No other appointments. I’m certain they would have gone SSD or slug around the entire shift wishing they went to another role (since I spoke to them after that), but I was able to catch them before they had such a slip. After a short appointment, hijinx ensued and snowballed into one of my most favorite shifts ever. It was mostly thanks to them.
You don’t have to give every new person a shot (it would be nice if you could), but if you see someone about to fall down a manhole… it would be best for all of us if you caught them before the big tumble. We’re all burnt out pieces of cold, molten steel here- so why not be a kinder person and ensure that those new, fireblooded individuals keep our legacy going. Everyone has that one player who helped them stay in the game and truly got them ingrained into and appreciative of the culture, now wouldn’t you like to be held in the same regards as those who came before you? Maybe even have your own name spoken about as fondly as you speak of your heroes? I know I do.
Last edited by san7890 on Sun Jul 24, 2022 7:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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- Tegun
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- CPTANT
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Re: Metagangs, Snubs, and Exclusion
I sincerely don't get why these people don't play on a high RP server instead.
Timberpoes wrote: ↑Tue Feb 14, 2023 3:21 pm The rules exist to create the biggest possible chance of a cool shift of SS13. They don't exist to allow admins to create the most boring interpretation of SS13.
- technokek
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Re: Metagangs, Snubs, and Exclusion
They would be banned for metagaming shrimple as
- sinfulbliss
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Re: Metagangs, Snubs, and Exclusion
I went to Manuel a long time ago when my RP wasn't very good or developed and had a much harder time integrating with the place than I did on Sybil. People were curt and didn't seem friendly, which was surprising since I went in thinking people were overly nice there. I hadn't played Terry much either yet found it significantly easier to get involved in things and (ironically) RP there than on Manuel because of the lax culture.
As counterintuitive as it sounds, the same culture that allows people to get in random battles to the death in the halls while yelling like chimps in broken English also provides new players that know nothing about the game with a very accepting and low bar to enter themselves into things. Call me crazy but a shove-fight is a much more approachable interaction to involve yourself in than a Manuel pillowfort like Striders described.
Everything becomes a function of time though. I remember when I met a player on Sybil we'd just *wave to each other and then continue our separate rounds, now we're friends and have had a lot of funny and entertaining interactions with each other. Over time we just began to recognize each other and this makes interactions much smoother than if you're randomnaming.
It's more about promoting an environment where you won't get negative interactions, so at the very least new players can play the game and have little micro-interactions with people, and over time develop those, than to get bogged down in how to create positive ones (although those are incredibly valuable).
As counterintuitive as it sounds, the same culture that allows people to get in random battles to the death in the halls while yelling like chimps in broken English also provides new players that know nothing about the game with a very accepting and low bar to enter themselves into things. Call me crazy but a shove-fight is a much more approachable interaction to involve yourself in than a Manuel pillowfort like Striders described.
Everything becomes a function of time though. I remember when I met a player on Sybil we'd just *wave to each other and then continue our separate rounds, now we're friends and have had a lot of funny and entertaining interactions with each other. Over time we just began to recognize each other and this makes interactions much smoother than if you're randomnaming.
It's more about promoting an environment where you won't get negative interactions, so at the very least new players can play the game and have little micro-interactions with people, and over time develop those, than to get bogged down in how to create positive ones (although those are incredibly valuable).
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- stewydeadmike
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Re: Metagangs, Snubs, and Exclusion
I think this is important to keep in mind with this conversation since a lot of it implies that LRP servers are less prone to toxic social attitudes when it's more so that they just take on different forms. Like yeah you're probably not gonna get told to get bent by the four people vibing in their maint cafe for 2 hours on LRP but back when I was a new player with 2017 era bagil being my first server I got yelled at a lot for not playing well with like sub 20 hours total. I even remember one round where I rolled geneticist and the other guy saw me and said something like "I'm stuck with YOU? welp. that's it." and then suicided.san7890 wrote: ↑Sun Jul 24, 2022 7:30 am I’ve heard it being “worse” on Manuel but people lose sight of how hard it is to be the odd-one-out or the new guy who doesn’t get all the lingo and vibes from the start. Every social situation ever has been like that. The absolute best thing you can do is see people walk into the same pitfalls you once did (I guarantee you fell into at least one) and try your damndest to teach them and try and make good with them.
I doubt that kind of culture is still around on most of the LRP servers but I just think it's important to not focus solely on manuel. LRP is still a social space like any other.
That said though I haven't really had any experience with being excluded personally by manuel cliques as of late so I can't really comment on that. One thing I've noticed a lot though is that people commonly don't really bother to interact with each other outside of their job/pragmatism or friend group. Like I don't really see people grouping up with their friends and excluding other people all that much as opposed to people who just don't really consider anyone outside of their circle to be in their "possibility space" of interaction if that makes sense.
- kieth4
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Re: Metagangs, Snubs, and Exclusion
san7890 wrote: ↑Sun Jul 24, 2022 7:30 am I’ve heard it being “worse” on Manuel but people lose sight of how hard it is to be the odd-one-out or the new guy who doesn’t get all the lingo and vibes from the start. Every social situation ever has been like that. The absolute best thing you can do is see people walk into the same pitfalls you once did (I guarantee you fell into at least one) and try your damndest to teach them and try and make good with them.
Here’s a fast, tangentially related story from Sybil: I was once the HoS, and I was gritting my teeth over not having de-prioritzed that job. However, I heard a voice over common:
Common: Hey crew, PDA me if you want a psychological evaluation!
This is incredible, considering this is how I made one of my best friends on /tg/ right now. There was a moth psychologist shouting over coms, of course, no one came but then I decided to and it all went uphill from there.
For every tale of a new person wanting to learn and interact well there are tales of many many many new people who are just horrible shitters. I think trying to teach 'new' players sec is a good indicator, sometimes they're genuinely new lovely people but other times they'll be from some downstream and feel that they're epic gamers and try to boss you around with no actual knowledge of the game.
As for the actual exclusion part I think it happens everywhere even IRL, there's now way to avoid it but people feel lrp is a bit more relaxed because metagroups bond over lesser things. e.g mrp might have people bonding over conversations whereas lrp it'll be shit like a huge fight club.
- Timberpoes
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Re: Metagangs, Snubs, and Exclusion
It'll be more obvious on Manuel because of the Manuelcord being what it is, and being as big as it is.
I would bravely propose that many Manuel IC metacliques can be drawn back to people getting along IC, chatting on the Manuelcord, getting along OOC and that's it. They now have friends to play with every shift and that makes the game better and more fun for them.
If players could see the admin chatter channels, every so often they'd probably get the same vibes.
Speaking generally accross all our servers:
I'd say a starting point to look is the admin team. It has its own metacliques and these metacliques form the blueprints of play-by-example to the rest of the playerbase. We have our own version of the Manuelcord inside the admin channels, just with extra exclusivity and our own admin in-jokes. I'd say this take should be non-controversial as admins have been warned in the past for excessive participation in metacliques, but I'm sure it'll ruffle some feathers anyway that I have even suggested such a thing.
It's easy to look outwardly, but I think forming cliques is just a natural progression for some people as they go through their SS13 playtime.
I think what metacliques often do is kill emergent RP, as they are circles of trust. Most conflict is usually consensual or manufactured between them. Outsiders are usually shunned away unless they're incidentally friends of someone in the clique. You only let people into the clique you can trust to make things more fun or interesting for you. Exchanging job benefits to unlock more of the sandbox. And there's of course massive safety in numbers. It's an optimal way to extract fun out of SS13 when you've advanced beyond the broad wonderment of the game and its premise, designed to instill omnipresent paranoia and force isolated people to come together to try and survive each shift's events.
I think it's a community thing. At some point the SS13 formula gets stale depending on your role and what you're looking for in games. But SS13 gets stale on the level of hundreds of hours. With such a massive time investment, people have built up friends and when they're bored of the game they don't want to leave their friends. So they stay and play together. And their core reason for playing SS13 is to play with the friends they've made along the way, which makes it a bit of a metaclique. And I think that's how it develops from players playing SS13, to players playing an SS13 themed chatroom with their friends, enduring the occasional bouts of gameplay and interruptions from random strangers.
I would bravely propose that many Manuel IC metacliques can be drawn back to people getting along IC, chatting on the Manuelcord, getting along OOC and that's it. They now have friends to play with every shift and that makes the game better and more fun for them.
If players could see the admin chatter channels, every so often they'd probably get the same vibes.
Speaking generally accross all our servers:
I'd say a starting point to look is the admin team. It has its own metacliques and these metacliques form the blueprints of play-by-example to the rest of the playerbase. We have our own version of the Manuelcord inside the admin channels, just with extra exclusivity and our own admin in-jokes. I'd say this take should be non-controversial as admins have been warned in the past for excessive participation in metacliques, but I'm sure it'll ruffle some feathers anyway that I have even suggested such a thing.
It's easy to look outwardly, but I think forming cliques is just a natural progression for some people as they go through their SS13 playtime.
I think what metacliques often do is kill emergent RP, as they are circles of trust. Most conflict is usually consensual or manufactured between them. Outsiders are usually shunned away unless they're incidentally friends of someone in the clique. You only let people into the clique you can trust to make things more fun or interesting for you. Exchanging job benefits to unlock more of the sandbox. And there's of course massive safety in numbers. It's an optimal way to extract fun out of SS13 when you've advanced beyond the broad wonderment of the game and its premise, designed to instill omnipresent paranoia and force isolated people to come together to try and survive each shift's events.
I think it's a community thing. At some point the SS13 formula gets stale depending on your role and what you're looking for in games. But SS13 gets stale on the level of hundreds of hours. With such a massive time investment, people have built up friends and when they're bored of the game they don't want to leave their friends. So they stay and play together. And their core reason for playing SS13 is to play with the friends they've made along the way, which makes it a bit of a metaclique. And I think that's how it develops from players playing SS13, to players playing an SS13 themed chatroom with their friends, enduring the occasional bouts of gameplay and interruptions from random strangers.
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- Super Aggro Crag
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- Farquaar
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Re: Metagangs, Snubs, and Exclusion
I figure since I rant plenty about metacliques and metafriendships on this forum, I might as well write a spiel.
The Rant
Incident A
Incident B
Misc Experiences
TL;DR People will use OOC relationships to ignore the wrongdoings of their metafriend or back their metafriend in unjustifiable fights that said metafriend started, regardless of how in the wrong they are. After all, why would I arrest them- we play Rust on the weekends together! My dream would be to make forced randomname as a station trait to help people get used to not playing as a part of a meta-circle but that'll probably result in a staticname revolt.
The Rant
► Show Spoiler
► Show Spoiler
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Last edited by Farquaar on Mon Jul 25, 2022 12:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Metagangs, Snubs, and Exclusion
Fun fact: The paint club was started by painting with Gay Johnson at 3-4am est for like a week straight. I Think metafriends/cliques are fine as long as people are open to welcoming people into their group.
- Kendrickorium
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Re: Metagangs, Snubs, and Exclusion
I think people play on manuel so they dont get murderboned and have no interest in actual rp, there i said it
everyone i know on sybil is pretty friendly with the exception of A FEW UN NAMED PEOPLE THAT LIKE TO PLAY HEAD OF SECURITY
that was also a really good post San, its easy to forget that those psychs asking people if they want evaluations or janitors that want to come in to do some cleaning might be looking for actual interaction with players and arent just doing busy work
i don't know im really tired
everyone i know on sybil is pretty friendly with the exception of A FEW UN NAMED PEOPLE THAT LIKE TO PLAY HEAD OF SECURITY
that was also a really good post San, its easy to forget that those psychs asking people if they want evaluations or janitors that want to come in to do some cleaning might be looking for actual interaction with players and arent just doing busy work
i don't know im really tired
- RaveRadbury
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Re: Metagangs, Snubs, and Exclusion
Was hoping you'd post when I was making the thread, thank.
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- san7890
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Re: Metagangs, Snubs, and Exclusion
I don't like the concept of a random-name station. It's always funny to say that "HA HA YOU'RE SO ATTACHED TO YOUR CHARACTER YOU CAN'T GO ONE SHIFT WITHOUT PLAYING AS YOUR SNOWFLAKE" but it's honestly like... it's not fun. I feel no attachment to the puppet I inhabit from the start of a shift, I'd rather have hijinx happen with my character and then be put into a flesh puppet. I have this whole thought out backstory for my character and how they might interact with any average person, and it's very hard to improv. I like seeing my character, the one I explicitly designed, be in control. Otherwise, I feel very far removed from any potential points. I like being "me". I used to be the mocker I quoted at the start of this post, but then it was actually forced on me and I absolutely hated every second of it. It was so silly. The person who runs the event doesn't get just how bad it is, and to abstract it to a code trait is not good in my personal opinion.
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- Farquaar
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Re: Metagangs, Snubs, and Exclusion
I aim to pleaseRaveRadbury wrote: ↑Mon Jul 25, 2022 2:53 amWas hoping you'd post when I was making the thread, thank.
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Re: Metagangs, Snubs, and Exclusion
My experience with metagangs is players that just hang out together all the time.
I find them most obnoxious when you get them as objectives, since you effectively have to deal with 2+ players. Whenever I see certain players as targets I wonder if I should even bother trying to kill them.
I find them most obnoxious when you get them as objectives, since you effectively have to deal with 2+ players. Whenever I see certain players as targets I wonder if I should even bother trying to kill them.
- Not-Dorsidarf
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Re: Metagangs, Snubs, and Exclusion
Gonna be real this is a completely alien attitude to the game to me. I literally can't understand it whatsoever. It doesn't make sense for me at any level. Do you just play the same single character doing the same things over and over for thousands, tens of thousands of hours? My main static characters from seven years of play are at most a third of my total number of rounds played because I'm always coming up with silly new ideas to play with or amusing clown names. How is one of your spacemans a "you"? to dissociate around when made to play a different-appearance character?san7890 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 25, 2022 3:42 am I don't like the concept of a random-name station. It's always funny to say that "HA HA YOU'RE SO ATTACHED TO YOUR CHARACTER YOU CAN'T GO ONE SHIFT WITHOUT PLAYING AS YOUR SNOWFLAKE" but it's honestly like... it's not fun. I feel no attachment to the puppet I inhabit from the start of a shift, I'd rather have hijinx happen with my character and then be put into a flesh puppet. I have this whole thought out backstory for my character and how they might interact with any average person, and it's very hard to improv. I like seeing my character, the one I explicitly designed, be in control. Otherwise, I feel very far removed from any potential points. I like being "me". I used to be the mocker I quoted at the start of this post, but then it was actually forced on me and I absolutely hated every second of it. It was so silly. The person who runs the event doesn't get just how bad it is, and to abstract it to a code trait is not good in my personal opinion.
kieth4 wrote: infrequently shitting yourself is fine imo
There is a lot of very bizarre nonsense being talked on this forum. I shall now remain silent and logoff until my points are vindicated.
Player who complainted over being killed for looting cap office wrote: ↑Sun Jul 30, 2023 1:33 am Hey there, I'm Virescent, the super evil person who made the stupid appeal and didn't think it through enough. Just came here to say: screech, retards. Screech and writhe like the worms you are. Your pathetic little cries will keep echoing around for a while before quietting down. There is one great outcome from this: I rised up the blood pressure of some of you shitheads and lowered your lifespan. I'm honestly tempted to do this more often just to see you screech and writhe more, but that wouldn't be cool of me. So come on haters, show me some more of your high blood pressure please.
- sinfulbliss
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Re: Metagangs, Snubs, and Exclusion
People who primarily play one character do so because their character takes on a personality and various traits based on how you talk, play, interact, and what sort of things you do. And if you've played one static for a long time it's probably just your natural way of roleplaying.Not-Dorsidarf wrote: ↑Mon Jul 25, 2022 2:39 pmGonna be real this is a completely alien attitude to the game to me. I literally can't understand it whatsoever. It doesn't make sense for me at any level. Do you just play the same single character doing the same things over and over for thousands, tens of thousands of hours? My main static characters from seven years of play are at most a third of my total number of rounds played because I'm always coming up with silly new ideas to play with or amusing clown names. How is one of your spacemans a "you"? to dissociate around when made to play a different-appearance character?san7890 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 25, 2022 3:42 am I don't like the concept of a random-name station. It's always funny to say that "HA HA YOU'RE SO ATTACHED TO YOUR CHARACTER YOU CAN'T GO ONE SHIFT WITHOUT PLAYING AS YOUR SNOWFLAKE" but it's honestly like... it's not fun. I feel no attachment to the puppet I inhabit from the start of a shift, I'd rather have hijinx happen with my character and then be put into a flesh puppet. I have this whole thought out backstory for my character and how they might interact with any average person, and it's very hard to improv. I like seeing my character, the one I explicitly designed, be in control. Otherwise, I feel very far removed from any potential points. I like being "me". I used to be the mocker I quoted at the start of this post, but then it was actually forced on me and I absolutely hated every second of it. It was so silly. The person who runs the event doesn't get just how bad it is, and to abstract it to a code trait is not good in my personal opinion.
Some Super Advanced Roleplayers can create a dozen statics all with their own unique personalities, jobs, backstories, and ways of interacting. But that's certainly not a majority of people, much less on LRP. If that's your jam though more power to you.
No one is completely emotionally detached from the game as they play it. Healthy detachment is good so you don't freak out and get OOCly mad and upset over little misfortunes that befall your character, but I think no one is totally detached or you wouldn't even be having fun. So when you character is happy you are also somewhat happy, when your character is pissed at something someone did maybe you are somewhat pissed at this as well. Over time and after enough experiences you identify with them and have built memories as that character, which become part of that character. To randomname is to delete all that and play the game as some shell you have no attachment to.
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- Stickymayhem
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Re: Metagangs, Snubs, and Exclusion
Genuinely my worst experience with metagangs is on Terry
There is a group, every Terry player knows every member, who basically form a coalition round to round. A pool of about a dozen regulars who team up to do fun things like space or iceland exploration, and also team up whenever a critical mass of them roll compatible antags. The problem is interactions on Terry are so simplified and stripped back that these interactions are hard to distinguish from regular gameplay other than the general trend of bias towards members of the metagang. They give each other access, weaponry, favourable security treatment and roll together in groups of as many as four or five to murderbone the station.
Honestly I tried to gather evidence to disentangle it but it was so wide reaching and across so many rounds we just don't have a mechanism for dealing with it. It's a pattern of behaviour that's heavily biased but not perfectly consistent, and any indication of a potential crackdown (probably including this post) makes the cockroaches scatter for a week or two before the behaviours start to increase again.
There is a group, every Terry player knows every member, who basically form a coalition round to round. A pool of about a dozen regulars who team up to do fun things like space or iceland exploration, and also team up whenever a critical mass of them roll compatible antags. The problem is interactions on Terry are so simplified and stripped back that these interactions are hard to distinguish from regular gameplay other than the general trend of bias towards members of the metagang. They give each other access, weaponry, favourable security treatment and roll together in groups of as many as four or five to murderbone the station.
Honestly I tried to gather evidence to disentangle it but it was so wide reaching and across so many rounds we just don't have a mechanism for dealing with it. It's a pattern of behaviour that's heavily biased but not perfectly consistent, and any indication of a potential crackdown (probably including this post) makes the cockroaches scatter for a week or two before the behaviours start to increase again.
Boris wrote:Sticky is a jackass who has worms where his brain should be, but he also gets exactly what SS13 should be
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Re: Metagangs, Snubs, and Exclusion
I don’t do the same things, and I think that really unfairly paints the situation. As I learn different things about the game or other people, my character changes in response to that. They aren’t truly static to the point they’re locked in time, they’re just the canal I’ve already dug out such that the water can much more easily flow. I’ve spent a while on the canal and using the canal that I don’t switch easily- I have to work a bit on getting used to it.Not-Dorsidarf wrote: ↑Mon Jul 25, 2022 2:39 pm -snip-
Do you just play the same single character doing the same things over and over for thousands, tens of thousands of hours?
I don’t play the same job and do the same gimmick every shift, I switch it up as often as anyone else might. I just “behave” the same way depending on what I want to accomplish that day. It’s not like I’m so attached to it that I’m mournful to see it die, it’s just easier for me to enjoy this Sandbox Roleplaying game that way. I’m comfortable assuming the “skin” of my character, and I don’t want that to be peeled back as I’m shoved into another canal-less character (which happens to look like the ugliest bastard with a shitheaded name). I’m highly resistant to anyone who does not respect my wishes in this matter, as it sorely ruins my personal enjoyment of the game. I would rather not play this game for one month (when I’m not burned out) than to play a singular round where some admin pushes a button because they think it’s “funny”.
I’m perfectly okay with losing the character with normal round progression stuff, I just don’t want to be sliced from the jump.
This is a weird attitude that you probably will not agree with, which is fine. All I ask is that people stay in their own lane regarding this issue. I’ll check my blindspots for your new statics and the random-naming security officer, so please be kind as to not smash into the same 2001 Toyota Corolla I’ve had for a solid while.
Sinful got it right in his reply to you otherwise.
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Re: Metagangs, Snubs, and Exclusion
Your estimate is way off.Stickymayhem wrote: ↑Mon Jul 25, 2022 4:19 pm Genuinely my worst experience with metagangs is on Terry
There is a group, every Terry player knows every member, who basically form a coalition round to round. A pool of about a dozen regulars who team up to do fun things like space or iceland exploration, and also team up whenever a critical mass of them roll compatible antags. The problem is interactions on Terry are so simplified and stripped back that these interactions are hard to distinguish from regular gameplay other than the general trend of bias towards members of the metagang. They give each other access, weaponry, favourable security treatment and roll together in groups of as many as four or five to murderbone the station.
Honestly I tried to gather evidence to disentangle it but it was so wide reaching and across so many rounds we just don't have a mechanism for dealing with it. It's a pattern of behaviour that's heavily biased but not perfectly consistent, and any indication of a potential crackdown (probably including this post) makes the cockroaches scatter for a week or two before the behaviours start to increase again.
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Re: Metagangs, Snubs, and Exclusion
it's not an estimate it's an observationRohen_Tahir wrote: ↑Mon Jul 25, 2022 6:26 pmYour estimate is way off.Stickymayhem wrote: ↑Mon Jul 25, 2022 4:19 pm Genuinely my worst experience with metagangs is on Terry
There is a group, every Terry player knows every member, who basically form a coalition round to round. A pool of about a dozen regulars who team up to do fun things like space or iceland exploration, and also team up whenever a critical mass of them roll compatible antags. The problem is interactions on Terry are so simplified and stripped back that these interactions are hard to distinguish from regular gameplay other than the general trend of bias towards members of the metagang. They give each other access, weaponry, favourable security treatment and roll together in groups of as many as four or five to murderbone the station.
Honestly I tried to gather evidence to disentangle it but it was so wide reaching and across so many rounds we just don't have a mechanism for dealing with it. It's a pattern of behaviour that's heavily biased but not perfectly consistent, and any indication of a potential crackdown (probably including this post) makes the cockroaches scatter for a week or two before the behaviours start to increase again.
Boris wrote:Sticky is a jackass who has worms where his brain should be, but he also gets exactly what SS13 should be
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Re: Metagangs, Snubs, and Exclusion
I mean the dozen (12).Stickymayhem wrote: ↑Mon Jul 25, 2022 6:32 pmit's not an estimate it's an observationRohen_Tahir wrote: ↑Mon Jul 25, 2022 6:26 pmYour estimate is way off.Stickymayhem wrote: ↑Mon Jul 25, 2022 4:19 pm Genuinely my worst experience with metagangs is on Terry
There is a group, every Terry player knows every member, who basically form a coalition round to round. A pool of about a dozen regulars who team up to do fun things like space or iceland exploration, and also team up whenever a critical mass of them roll compatible antags. The problem is interactions on Terry are so simplified and stripped back that these interactions are hard to distinguish from regular gameplay other than the general trend of bias towards members of the metagang. They give each other access, weaponry, favourable security treatment and roll together in groups of as many as four or five to murderbone the station.
Honestly I tried to gather evidence to disentangle it but it was so wide reaching and across so many rounds we just don't have a mechanism for dealing with it. It's a pattern of behaviour that's heavily biased but not perfectly consistent, and any indication of a potential crackdown (probably including this post) makes the cockroaches scatter for a week or two before the behaviours start to increase again.
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Re: Metagangs, Snubs, and Exclusion
I would say there are 6 cores and 6 that get swapped in and out less frequentlyRohen_Tahir wrote: ↑Mon Jul 25, 2022 6:47 pmI mean the dozen (12).Stickymayhem wrote: ↑Mon Jul 25, 2022 6:32 pmit's not an estimate it's an observationRohen_Tahir wrote: ↑Mon Jul 25, 2022 6:26 pmYour estimate is way off.Stickymayhem wrote: ↑Mon Jul 25, 2022 4:19 pm Genuinely my worst experience with metagangs is on Terry
There is a group, every Terry player knows every member, who basically form a coalition round to round. A pool of about a dozen regulars who team up to do fun things like space or iceland exploration, and also team up whenever a critical mass of them roll compatible antags. The problem is interactions on Terry are so simplified and stripped back that these interactions are hard to distinguish from regular gameplay other than the general trend of bias towards members of the metagang. They give each other access, weaponry, favourable security treatment and roll together in groups of as many as four or five to murderbone the station.
Honestly I tried to gather evidence to disentangle it but it was so wide reaching and across so many rounds we just don't have a mechanism for dealing with it. It's a pattern of behaviour that's heavily biased but not perfectly consistent, and any indication of a potential crackdown (probably including this post) makes the cockroaches scatter for a week or two before the behaviours start to increase again.
Boris wrote:Sticky is a jackass who has worms where his brain should be, but he also gets exactly what SS13 should be
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Re: Metagangs, Snubs, and Exclusion
I'd love for you to say the names tbh. I've not seen a murderbone of four people for a very very very long time. I've also not really seen anyone give people preferable sec treatment as more often than not you'll kill your metafriends as you know they won't ahelp.Stickymayhem wrote: ↑Mon Jul 25, 2022 9:06 pmI would say there are 6 cores and 6 that get swapped in and out less frequentlyRohen_Tahir wrote: ↑Mon Jul 25, 2022 6:47 pmI mean the dozen (12).Stickymayhem wrote: ↑Mon Jul 25, 2022 6:32 pmit's not an estimate it's an observationRohen_Tahir wrote: ↑Mon Jul 25, 2022 6:26 pmYour estimate is way off.Stickymayhem wrote: ↑Mon Jul 25, 2022 4:19 pm Genuinely my worst experience with metagangs is on Terry
There is a group, every Terry player knows every member, who basically form a coalition round to round. A pool of about a dozen regulars who team up to do fun things like space or iceland exploration, and also team up whenever a critical mass of them roll compatible antags. The problem is interactions on Terry are so simplified and stripped back that these interactions are hard to distinguish from regular gameplay other than the general trend of bias towards members of the metagang. They give each other access, weaponry, favourable security treatment and roll together in groups of as many as four or five to murderbone the station.
Honestly I tried to gather evidence to disentangle it but it was so wide reaching and across so many rounds we just don't have a mechanism for dealing with it. It's a pattern of behaviour that's heavily biased but not perfectly consistent, and any indication of a potential crackdown (probably including this post) makes the cockroaches scatter for a week or two before the behaviours start to increase again.
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Re: Metagangs, Snubs, and Exclusion
why didn't you slap them for obvious metagaming?Stickymayhem wrote: ↑Mon Jul 25, 2022 4:19 pm Genuinely my worst experience with metagangs is on Terry
There is a group, every Terry player knows every member, who basically form a coalition round to round. A pool of about a dozen regulars who team up to do fun things like space or iceland exploration, and also team up whenever a critical mass of them roll compatible antags. The problem is interactions on Terry are so simplified and stripped back that these interactions are hard to distinguish from regular gameplay other than the general trend of bias towards members of the metagang. They give each other access, weaponry, favourable security treatment and roll together in groups of as many as four or five to murderbone the station.
Honestly I tried to gather evidence to disentangle it but it was so wide reaching and across so many rounds we just don't have a mechanism for dealing with it. It's a pattern of behaviour that's heavily biased but not perfectly consistent, and any indication of a potential crackdown (probably including this post) makes the cockroaches scatter for a week or two before the behaviours start to increase again.
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Re: Metagangs, Snubs, and Exclusion
hey if this all resolved itself magically while i was busy with my new job for the last few months thats good newskieth4 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 25, 2022 9:29 pmI'd love for you to say the names tbh. I've not seen a murderbone of four people for a very very very long time. I've also not really seen anyone give people preferable sec treatment as more often than not you'll kill your metafriends as you know they won't ahelp.Stickymayhem wrote: ↑Mon Jul 25, 2022 9:06 pmI would say there are 6 cores and 6 that get swapped in and out less frequentlyRohen_Tahir wrote: ↑Mon Jul 25, 2022 6:47 pmI mean the dozen (12).Stickymayhem wrote: ↑Mon Jul 25, 2022 6:32 pmit's not an estimate it's an observationRohen_Tahir wrote: ↑Mon Jul 25, 2022 6:26 pmYour estimate is way off.Stickymayhem wrote: ↑Mon Jul 25, 2022 4:19 pm Genuinely my worst experience with metagangs is on Terry
There is a group, every Terry player knows every member, who basically form a coalition round to round. A pool of about a dozen regulars who team up to do fun things like space or iceland exploration, and also team up whenever a critical mass of them roll compatible antags. The problem is interactions on Terry are so simplified and stripped back that these interactions are hard to distinguish from regular gameplay other than the general trend of bias towards members of the metagang. They give each other access, weaponry, favourable security treatment and roll together in groups of as many as four or five to murderbone the station.
Honestly I tried to gather evidence to disentangle it but it was so wide reaching and across so many rounds we just don't have a mechanism for dealing with it. It's a pattern of behaviour that's heavily biased but not perfectly consistent, and any indication of a potential crackdown (probably including this post) makes the cockroaches scatter for a week or two before the behaviours start to increase again.
i literally have a conspiracy wall i was putting together with red string and everything i can probably dig up that had the core people on it
but you already know who im talking about you just disagree with the definition of metagaming im using because its ingratiated itself so heavily into the culture
Boris wrote:Sticky is a jackass who has worms where his brain should be, but he also gets exactly what SS13 should be
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Re: Metagangs, Snubs, and Exclusion
Given Keith4 is arguing with sticky I think I know the Terry metagang Sticky is speaking of.
If i remember correctly at least one would always roll security and then they would form a train/piggyback around the station.
This meant if you rolled any of them as objectives you had to deal with 2+ others at least one of which had a baton.
Yeah.
If i remember correctly at least one would always roll security and then they would form a train/piggyback around the station.
This meant if you rolled any of them as objectives you had to deal with 2+ others at least one of which had a baton.
Yeah.
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Re: Metagangs, Snubs, and Exclusion
I know what you're referring to but if you look at the content of trains they're 99% seccies and anyone else who joins.chocolate_bickie wrote: ↑Mon Jul 25, 2022 10:40 pm Given Keith4 is arguing with sticky I think I know the Terry metagang Sticky is speaking of.
If i remember correctly at least one would always roll security and then they would form a train/piggyback around the station.
This meant if you rolled any of them as objectives you had to deal with 2+ others at least one of which had a baton.
Yeah.
Security making a valid train with security mains and valid hunter mains is I guess departmental metaganging? I dunno, I don't particularly view security hunting people as much of a metagang
As a security officer the worst thing you can do is go alone and people on Terry stuck together to counter this.
Last edited by kieth4 on Mon Jul 25, 2022 11:23 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Metagangs, Snubs, and Exclusion
I honestly don't know what you're talking about, I'm not trying to pretend to be ignorant I'm just not sure I can think of players that fit into your definition. I remember gangs of validhunters and such but I don't know people who teamed up to explore Iceland and shit.Stickymayhem wrote: ↑Mon Jul 25, 2022 10:18 pmhey if this all resolved itself magically while i was busy with my new job for the last few months thats good newskieth4 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 25, 2022 9:29 pmI'd love for you to say the names tbh. I've not seen a murderbone of four people for a very very very long time. I've also not really seen anyone give people preferable sec treatment as more often than not you'll kill your metafriends as you know they won't ahelp.Stickymayhem wrote: ↑Mon Jul 25, 2022 9:06 pmI would say there are 6 cores and 6 that get swapped in and out less frequentlyRohen_Tahir wrote: ↑Mon Jul 25, 2022 6:47 pmI mean the dozen (12).Stickymayhem wrote: ↑Mon Jul 25, 2022 6:32 pmit's not an estimate it's an observationRohen_Tahir wrote: ↑Mon Jul 25, 2022 6:26 pmYour estimate is way off.Stickymayhem wrote: ↑Mon Jul 25, 2022 4:19 pm Genuinely my worst experience with metagangs is on Terry
There is a group, every Terry player knows every member, who basically form a coalition round to round. A pool of about a dozen regulars who team up to do fun things like space or iceland exploration, and also team up whenever a critical mass of them roll compatible antags. The problem is interactions on Terry are so simplified and stripped back that these interactions are hard to distinguish from regular gameplay other than the general trend of bias towards members of the metagang. They give each other access, weaponry, favourable security treatment and roll together in groups of as many as four or five to murderbone the station.
Honestly I tried to gather evidence to disentangle it but it was so wide reaching and across so many rounds we just don't have a mechanism for dealing with it. It's a pattern of behaviour that's heavily biased but not perfectly consistent, and any indication of a potential crackdown (probably including this post) makes the cockroaches scatter for a week or two before the behaviours start to increase again.
i literally have a conspiracy wall i was putting together with red string and everything i can probably dig up that had the core people on it
but you already know who im talking about you just disagree with the definition of metagaming im using because its ingratiated itself so heavily into the culture
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Re: Metagangs, Snubs, and Exclusion
SNIP YOUR QUOTES!!!
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Re: Metagangs, Snubs, and Exclusion
dont read this ip grabber
► Show Spoiler
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Re: Metagangs, Snubs, and Exclusion
If you hang out with your friends you are a METAGAMER and need to be banned from the server ASAPkieth4 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 25, 2022 11:14 pm I know what you're referring to but if you look at the content of trains they're 99% seccies and anyone else who joins.
Security making a valid train with security mains and valid hunter mains is I guess departmental metaganging? I dunno, I don't particularly view security hunting people as much of a metagang
As a security officer the worst thing you can do is go alone and people on Terry stuck together to counter this.
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Re: Metagangs, Snubs, and Exclusion
Kendrickorium wrote: ↑Mon Jul 25, 2022 1:24 am everyone i know on sybil is pretty friendly with the exception of A FEW UN NAMED PEOPLE THAT LIKE TO PLAY HEAD OF SECURITY
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Re: Metagangs, Snubs, and Exclusion
sorry friendly was the wrong thing to say, everyone is pretty friendly, they just need to interact a bit moretoemas wrote: ↑Wed Jul 27, 2022 3:57 pmKendrickorium wrote: ↑Mon Jul 25, 2022 1:24 am everyone i know on sybil is pretty friendly with the exception of A FEW UN NAMED PEOPLE THAT LIKE TO PLAY HEAD OF SECURITY
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Re: Metagangs, Snubs, and Exclusion
I know every character in this photo
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Re: Metagangs, Snubs, and Exclusion
From left to right:
Blacklisted, Discord Permabanned, Clinically Insane, Evaporated, Permabanned, Fulpstation Player, Admin
Truly, the finest Sybil has.
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Re: Metagangs, Snubs, and Exclusion
Having played on so many servers across the years, I can say I've run into metagangs, run into snobs, and run into those ignoring others and curating their experience so that they can maintain THEIR fun, on each and every one.
Is any of that a bad thing? No!
This is a social game with social interactions, that by its very nature invites social nuance, social circles, and even cliques.
That all existing is NO ONES fault, not players faults, not developers faults, not communities faults, and not admins faults.
Its also worth noting that for some people SS13 is more than just a drop in drop out experience at a whim. For them it is a recurring daily experience, a place to build some friendships, experience unique interactions, and be social outlet. That's great, that's admirable, I commend it being able to be that kind of space for many.
Its certainly understandable that some people would WANT to protect those spaces and what they have of course, is it not?
Its a shame when we run into negative social experiences but it would be disingenuous to expect we can provide a positive experience for everyone all the time. People don't HAVE to interact, to be nice, to be inviting, patient, or inclusive.
I can think of servers were I would play security poorly (intentionally) and not fit the mold, and wouldn't be trusted or accepted as a result. It was to be expected in an environment where almost always the same people were a part of the department at the time same set hours of the day.
That being said it isn't worth letting bad experiences with one group taint my overall experience. I'm not going to swear things off forever as I've had one bad meal at a restaurant. A restaurant where I may not have tried all the meals, the chef may be replaced, or even the management could be upended.
There is still space to look for the interactions you are seeking, adapt and change to get the sorts of interactions you would like, and so on. This is a social environment, and sometimes that means adaption, for others it may mean sticking it out with an attitude and 'character' and getting the experiences that come with it.
So lets not label this as being a problem to be solved with buzzwords like metagangs, metacliques, and whatever else. It isn't a problem to be solved, or even one that can be solved. What we can do is look at ourselves individually and the effort we are willing to put in to get the experiences that WE want, and provide the experiences we want to for others if we WANT to. Social nuance will NEVER be a problem.
That isn't to say that extreme behaviors can not be curtailed and rules not be enforced, but the groups and social interactions where some of these unique problems sprout up from are not fundamentally the cause of the problems themselves. Those behaviors to be corrected come from something else.
Is any of that a bad thing? No!
This is a social game with social interactions, that by its very nature invites social nuance, social circles, and even cliques.
That all existing is NO ONES fault, not players faults, not developers faults, not communities faults, and not admins faults.
Its also worth noting that for some people SS13 is more than just a drop in drop out experience at a whim. For them it is a recurring daily experience, a place to build some friendships, experience unique interactions, and be social outlet. That's great, that's admirable, I commend it being able to be that kind of space for many.
Its certainly understandable that some people would WANT to protect those spaces and what they have of course, is it not?
Its a shame when we run into negative social experiences but it would be disingenuous to expect we can provide a positive experience for everyone all the time. People don't HAVE to interact, to be nice, to be inviting, patient, or inclusive.
I can think of servers were I would play security poorly (intentionally) and not fit the mold, and wouldn't be trusted or accepted as a result. It was to be expected in an environment where almost always the same people were a part of the department at the time same set hours of the day.
That being said it isn't worth letting bad experiences with one group taint my overall experience. I'm not going to swear things off forever as I've had one bad meal at a restaurant. A restaurant where I may not have tried all the meals, the chef may be replaced, or even the management could be upended.
There is still space to look for the interactions you are seeking, adapt and change to get the sorts of interactions you would like, and so on. This is a social environment, and sometimes that means adaption, for others it may mean sticking it out with an attitude and 'character' and getting the experiences that come with it.
So lets not label this as being a problem to be solved with buzzwords like metagangs, metacliques, and whatever else. It isn't a problem to be solved, or even one that can be solved. What we can do is look at ourselves individually and the effort we are willing to put in to get the experiences that WE want, and provide the experiences we want to for others if we WANT to. Social nuance will NEVER be a problem.
That isn't to say that extreme behaviors can not be curtailed and rules not be enforced, but the groups and social interactions where some of these unique problems sprout up from are not fundamentally the cause of the problems themselves. Those behaviors to be corrected come from something else.
Hugs
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Re: Metagangs, Snubs, and Exclusion
It sort of sounds like you're just saying that players being excluded or snubbed need to just "adapt" (the RP equivalent of "git gud") until people want to talk to them. It seems to undercut the entire issue being brought up in the topic and chalking it up to inevitability. Is it inevitable for players to be rude to a newcomer because they have an inclination to protect their metacircle? I don't think so. I think you can have friends in the game who you hang out with regularly, while also being accepting to players outside that circle interacting with you.
Curating your experience to become insular so that you can "maintain your fun" goes against the point of the game and what makes it fun for other players. If you need to ignore everybody except a select few people you've decided are "beneficial for your enjoyment," and snub the rest so they don't dare invade your protected circle of enjoyment, I think you're doing something wrong.
It's true people like to hang out with their friends and nothing's wrong with that, but to be so obsessed with maximizing your own fun at the expense of others who just want you to reply to them, isn't a good thing. I also think negative experiences and having your "standard round-to-round meta-enjoyment" compromised is in the end a good part of the game, and adds depth not only to rounds but to your character development.
Spoiler: