in this peanut we argue escalation policy again

[kinnebian]

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=33868

[The Wrench]

Certified Manuel moment.

[Fren256]

Hold it guys, we can't discuss this appeal till the round is over

[Vekter]

I'm going to start encouraging other admins to give more severe bans if people demonstrate shitty behavior in tickets.

We're all adults here, there are processes for handling matters where you don't agree with an admin. There is never any justification for shit like this:

Fuck you and your out of touch interpretation. That person should not be playing here.

I'm not going to defend that Drag was also kind of terse with him early in the ticket, though. He didn't need to be like that.

Also server tribalism is the height of cringe.

E: Also also the ban was justified, he was told to get the guy healed (which is required by escalation rules) and he refused.

[dendydoom]

whether it's with a firelock or your fists it warms my heart to know that the one thing unifying us all across the rifts of server culture is murdering someone for taking the toolbelt you wanted

[Drag]

I'm gonna say this once: Vigilante behavior is not welcome or kindly looked upon by the admin team.

[Turbonerd]

I wouldn't call identity theft minor. This entire situation was kinda cringe for all sides in this one.

[dendydoom]

i am hesitant to post this in the actual appeal because it's valid, relevant information but there is nothing in the rules that says stealing an item off the floor is self-antagging. being annoying, yes. behaviour deserving of a smackdown, yes. but not against the rules. even manuel's escalation policy says all that stealing shit does is revoke your right to escalate when the person turns up to slap the piss out of you, and the thief didn't retaliate at all. the appealer has no way of knowing what the thief's IC reason might be, and deciding to retaliate in such an OOCly motivated way (must kill shitter!!!!!!) is poor form for the RP server.

however escalation policy says:

If you are wronged, you are expected to handle the conflict non-lethally whenever possible, escalating in severity as the conflict continues.

so yeah seems like the appellant was the only one in this situation that broke the rules. totally understand being mildly frustrated at the inconvenience of getting your tools yoinked by some bored jerkoff moments after getting blown up but really not something to flip out over, it's just unnecessary.

[Fren256]

Shouldn't have ahelped, admins aren't babysitters. Also yeah Linden is a pain in the ass, but I think critting him was too much. Throwing him below the tracks without tabling would've sufficed.

[Drag]

i am hesitant to post this in the actual appeal because it's valid, relevant information but there is nothing in the rules that says stealing an item off the floor is self-antagging. being annoying, yes. behaviour deserving of a smackdown, yes. but not against the rules. even manuel's escalation policy says all that stealing shit does is revoke your right to escalate when the person turns up to slap the piss out of you, and the thief didn't retaliate at all. the appealer has no way of knowing what the thief's IC reason might be, and deciding to retaliate in such an OOCly motivated way (must kill shitter!!!!!!) is poor form for the RP server.

however escalation policy says:

If you are wronged, you are expected to handle the conflict non-lethally whenever possible, escalating in severity as the conflict continues.

so yeah seems like the appellant was the only one in this situation that broke the rules. totally understand being mildly frustrated at the inconvenience of getting your tools yoinked by some bored jerkoff moments after getting blown up but really not something to flip out over, it's just unnecessary.

That would be fine to put in the appeal, as it directs attention to the relevant policy instead of just being a one-off comment about the situation

[Scriptis]

this guy is always so angry when he's online. he's like that one player from your tf2 6s team in 2013 who sperged out on everyone whenever your team lost

or an average player in your call of duty mw2 xbox live lobby

[Misdoubtful]

How many times do I have to link this video everywhere?

https://youtu.be/m5Ye_dAge-4

[iwishforducks]

people who steal from medical patients deserve nothing less than beheading and being thrown out the airlock what the fuck is this shit

[iwishforducks]

i will say that baal is an extreme hothead and had it coming but like come the fuck on are we really letting escalation policy protect dipshits like that

[Archie700]

Should a person be noted or banned for OOC in IC if they post an appeal before the round ends.
I think they should.

[Drag]

How many times do I have to link this video everywhere?

https://youtu.be/m5Ye_dAge-4

I'm going to start using this every time an escalation case comes up

i will say that baal is an extreme hothead and had it coming but like come the fuck on are we really letting escalation policy protect dipshits like that

If you take an eye for an eye eventually the world will turn blind. People who deserve permas will get them in due time, in the meantime two wrongs don't make any situation right. Otherwise, we'd have worse server culture than we already do.

[Armhulen]

Round is over, first and foremost: I am not interested in lifting this ban.

This is just something I've been seeing often, personally I'm more of a "this is why i'm worried about unbanning you" than a "i've decided i'm not unbanning you" kinda guy. A lotta people need more than one post to reach a conclusion where they have learned they fucked up in some way. I dunno, what do you think guys?

[dendydoom]

i will say that baal is an extreme hothead and had it coming but like come the fuck on are we really letting escalation policy protect dipshits like that

i don't think anyone would disagree it was shithead behaviour on the assistant's part. imo admins could very easily investigate an ahelp on this and ask the assistant to have a better IC reason in future but the problem lies in the fact that the appealer ahelped, went "TOO SLOW I WANT JUSTICE NOW!!!!!!!!!" and then took it into their own hands to beat them to death for an entirely OOC reason thus breaking the rules themselves in the process and removing all goodwill from anyone involved who might want to help their issue. there's a story in here somewhere about someone who tried to have a cake and eat it too. or a toolbelt. something.

at the end of the day there's an issue with low effort borderline rulebreaking LRP behaviour on the MRP server but there's also an issue with trigger happy RP purists who will look for any reason to validate removing people from the round for behaviour they don't like in an entirely OOC way. both are bad.

[Archie700]

Round is over, first and foremost: I am not interested in lifting this ban.

This is just something I've been seeing often, personally I'm more of a "this is why i'm worried about unbanning you" than a "i've decided i'm not unbanning you" kinda guy. A lotta people need more than one post to reach a conclusion where they have learned they fucked up in some way. I dunno, what do you think guys?

Drag basically explained everything that could be explained in one post and response and the player was being unapologetic. Since Baal violated escalation policy by throwing the crit person down the undertram and refusing to pick him up until he got healed, as well as hostility in ahelps when confronted:

He didn't return my stuff, and he wasn't supposed to be stealing my shit to begin with as a non-antag. Fuck you.
muffindrake ➡ thedragmeme

AND further hostility in the appeal:

Why you think you should be unbanned: The admin listed 'being insulting because I didn't receive the outcome I wanted' in the ticket, but the admin did _nothing_ do begin with before deciding to ban me, so what's the deal here? They accuse me of server tribalism since I told them that the player in question belongs on Terry since they were being a self-antagging asshole. This is funny because I still mostly play on Terry, and self-antagging-adjacent behaviour is more expected there to begin with. Also, handing a person that was just griefed by a player that had broken the rules to begin with a punishment is the most dystopian thing you could possibly do at that moment. Insults are warranted since the admin was obviously out of touch.

Most likely Drag concluded: "Not even worth entertaining an unban."

[iwishforducks]

How many times do I have to link this video everywhere?

https://youtu.be/m5Ye_dAge-4

I'm going to start using this every time an escalation case comes up

i will say that baal is an extreme hothead and had it coming but like come the fuck on are we really letting escalation policy protect dipshits like that

If you take an eye for an eye eventually the world will turn blind. People who deserve permas will get them in due time, in the meantime two wrongs don't make any situation right. Otherwise, we'd have worse server culture than we already do.

in my humble fucking opinion, the game is best when players can handle things IC while also OOCly asking the DMs to, you know, double check their work first off but to also speak to the offending player personally and making sure the behavior doesn't repeat- something we shouldn't be expecting our players to do. (and if a player is taking that responsibility PLEASE admin them ASAP.) are you seriously suggesting that if someone is being a dick then we should stop drop and ahelp and stop all in character actions? or should we turn the server into 24/7 deathmatch by being expected to handle all things ICly? these are hypotheticals, because, frankly, your stance on this issue confuses to me several degrees.

"People who deserve permas will get them in due time" - again, see above, but also what kind of complex do you have going inside your head? do you truly believe that people are just... deserving to get permas in due time? if you think someone has poor behavior then you should be pulling them aside and trying to get them to correct their behavior, not waiting for the day you can assblast them. there are people deserving permabans, but if we're going to run a business of "perma in due time" then all hope is lost for this administration. like full stop there.

"Otherwise, we'd have worse server culture than we already do." - im bringing this up only because you brought it up and i think it's a good introspective question: what IS the current server culture you take issue with? refer to paragraph's 1 hypotheticals of "do we ban people for ahelping" or "do we ban people for dealing with things ICly"

also we're all running this on the assumption that baal was in the wrong for beating the shit out of someone for stealing their shit. stealing from medical patients is just kicking puppies that just got shot- they're already down a leg and it's just insult to injury. like... there's a reason they're in medical bay. i also don't think the assistant giving the ID to an engineer was an acceptable action either. the engineer could have been an antagonist and they also have no responsibility for this mess. it's the assistant's responsibility first and foremost to give Baal their ID back, not some random engineer.

[Vekter]

Round is over, first and foremost: I am not interested in lifting this ban.

This is just something I've been seeing often, personally I'm more of a "this is why i'm worried about unbanning you" than a "i've decided i'm not unbanning you" kinda guy. A lotta people need more than one post to reach a conclusion where they have learned they fucked up in some way. I dunno, what do you think guys?

You make a good point. I'll say that I usually only go this hard if I'm convinced there's no real point in unbanning someone, especially if their appeal reads less like "Yes, I made a mistake, I'm sorry" and more like "I DIDN'T BREAK THE RULES FUCK YOU".

[Armhulen]

Round is over, first and foremost: I am not interested in lifting this ban.

This is just something I've been seeing often, personally I'm more of a "this is why i'm worried about unbanning you" than a "i've decided i'm not unbanning you" kinda guy. A lotta people need more than one post to reach a conclusion where they have learned they fucked up in some way. I dunno, what do you think guys?

Drag basically explained everything that could be explained in one post and response and the player was being unapologetic. Since Baal violated escalation policy by throwing the crit person down the undertram and refusing to pick him up until he got healed, as well as hostility in ahelps when confronted:

He didn't return my stuff, and he wasn't supposed to be stealing my shit to begin with as a non-antag. Fuck you.
muffindrake ➡ thedragmeme

AND further hostility in the appeal:

Why you think you should be unbanned: The admin listed 'being insulting because I didn't receive the outcome I wanted' in the ticket, but the admin did _nothing_ do begin with before deciding to ban me, so what's the deal here? They accuse me of server tribalism since I told them that the player in question belongs on Terry since they were being a self-antagging asshole. This is funny because I still mostly play on Terry, and self-antagging-adjacent behaviour is more expected there to begin with. Also, handing a person that was just griefed by a player that had broken the rules to begin with a punishment is the most dystopian thing you could possibly do at that moment. Insults are warranted since the admin was obviously out of touch.

Most likely Drag concluded: "Not even worth entertaining an unban."

For sure, in this case I see the fair reasoning. I only bring it up because it's a general pattern I've noticed.

Round is over, first and foremost: I am not interested in lifting this ban.

This is just something I've been seeing often, personally I'm more of a "this is why i'm worried about unbanning you" than a "i've decided i'm not unbanning you" kinda guy. A lotta people need more than one post to reach a conclusion where they have learned they fucked up in some way. I dunno, what do you think guys?

You make a good point. I'll say that I usually only go this hard if I'm convinced there's no real point in unbanning someone, especially if their appeal reads less like "Yes, I made a mistake, I'm sorry" and more like "I DIDN'T BREAK THE RULES FUCK YOU".

amen to that. give no respect, and don't expect any back

[iwishforducks]

amen to that. give no respect, and don't expect any back

i would be inclined to agree if drag's ticket didn't begin with a threat

Also I will slab you if you do not take that assistant to medbay, as it is part of our escalation policy.

[Archie700]

\
in my humble fucking opinion, the game is best when players can handle things IC while also OOCly asking the DMs to, you know, double check their work first off but to also speak to the offending player personally and making sure the behavior doesn't repeat- something we shouldn't be expecting our players to do. (and if a player is taking that responsibility PLEASE admin them ASAP.) are you seriously suggesting that if someone is being a dick then we should stop drop and ahelp and stop all in character actions? or should we turn the server into 24/7 deathmatch by being expected to handle all things ICly? these are hypotheticals, because, frankly, your stance on this issue confuses to me several degrees.

In my humble bloody opinion, this is the type of ahelp that becomes a nightmare to resolve because now you have to take into account actions before and after the ahelp, which can change the situation drastically.
Calling the teacher in, then beating the troublemaker to critical condition and throwing him out the railing while the teacher is trying to get a sense of what just happened.
And also telling the teacher to fuck off when they tell you to scoop his body up or face punishment which is explicitly in the school rules.

[iwishforducks]

\
in my humble fucking opinion, the game is best when players can handle things IC while also OOCly asking the DMs to, you know, double check their work first off but to also speak to the offending player personally and making sure the behavior doesn't repeat- something we shouldn't be expecting our players to do. (and if a player is taking that responsibility PLEASE admin them ASAP.) are you seriously suggesting that if someone is being a dick then we should stop drop and ahelp and stop all in character actions? or should we turn the server into 24/7 deathmatch by being expected to handle all things ICly? these are hypotheticals, because, frankly, your stance on this issue confuses to me several degrees.

In my humble bloody opinion, this is the type of ahelp that becomes a nightmare to resolve because now you have to take into account actions before and after the ahelp, which can change the system drastically.

they can cry about it if they can't respond to an ahelp in a timely manner. i know it's not very fun to deal with those tickets but there's no way to make this kind of thing easier because the game does not stop if you don't respond to an ahelp immediately. (edit: also to make it clear they did respond to the ahelp within 2 minutes, i am just saying that it's ridiculous to ACTIVELY punish people for taking IC actions after ahelping)

also, for the full history of events:

about 10:02:47 - Linden "loots medical" and steals Baal's toolbelt

Code: Select all

10:02:47	SAY	Gal Paladin/(Egret) "Security, Linden is looting medbay"	(127, 102, 3)	Medbay Treatment Center

10:06:50 - ahelped
10:07:22 - attacked the assistant
10:08:28 - ticket responded to

if you seriously can't deal with a ticket that has no more than 5 minutes of history then ??????????

edit because i was ninja edited:

Calling the teacher in, then beating the troublemaker to critical condition and throwing him out the railing while the teacher is trying to get a sense of what just happened.
And also telling the teacher to fuck off when they tell you to scoop his body up or face punishment which is explicitly in the school rules.

people who steal from medical patients deserve nothing less than beheading and being thrown out the airlock what the fuck is this shit

also there were nukies. lot of people dead. no reason to be stealing from patients and fucking around with people in the medical bay

[Armhulen]

amen to that. give no respect, and don't expect any back

i would be inclined to agree if drag's ticket didn't begin with a threat

Also I will slab you if you do not take that assistant to medbay, as it is part of our escalation policy.

I'm sure it was intended to be more disarming than threatening but yeah that might have just set things off on the wrong foot to begin with.

[sinfulbliss]

Deserved for retaliating (and winning?) IC and yet still deciding to ahelp.

Two wrongs do not make a right, it dosent matter if someone "deserved it". If someone is breaking the rules you let us know then go hands off.

I really, really hate this mentality. If someone is griefing you and breaking rules, you CANNOT retaliate! They broke rules, so now it's an OOC issue, hands off! Fuck that dude. If someone steals my ID and belongings while I'm being revived, they can be killed and chucked into the undertram. That is how an IC conflict works, I'm sorry if you dislike people daring to choose violence over malding in a locker for 20 min ahelping.

Throwing them to the undertram shouldn't matter if they were retrieved 15 seconds later. I don't think it's a coincidence they were banned after saying "hell of an admin right here."

I get there are these psychotic, angry, entitled players in ahelps. But you guys gotta stop letting it get to you and levying anger bans over it. Mute them from ahelping for the round and wash your hands of the situation.

[iwishforducks]

Deserved for retaliating (and winning?) IC and yet still deciding to ahelp.

they ahelped before they beat them up

[sinfulbliss]

Deserved for retaliating (and winning?) IC and yet still deciding to ahelp.

they ahelped before they beat them up

Deserved for ahelping then I guess... The absolute state

[dendydoom]

Throwing them to the undertram shouldn't matter if they were retrieved 15 seconds later. I don't think it's a coincidence they were banned after saying "hell of an admin right here."

i understand the reasoning for this on its own but in this particular instance there's some level of nuance that i feel people are overlooking if we are going by drag's logs posted in the appeal:

1) the thief supposedly threw the toolbelt they stole back at the atmos tech chasing them

2) the thief explained where their ID was while they were being beaten up, not retaliating at all themselves

3) the atmos tech ignored all of this and killed them anyway, already an overescalation, and threw their body into the undertram when medbay was 5 feet behind them

these are not IC reasons for attacking someone. an IC reason would be "i want my things back, so i'm going to beat the person up that took them until they give them back". this is an OOC "this player did a shitter thing and now I have deemed them a shitter and it is my job to destroy shitters and throw them into the undertram". the entire driving force behind their decision to beat someone to death was because

They can go be an asshole on Terry.

imo that sort of thing should not be encouraged. reacting ICly to IC issues by escalating to violence? yes, fine. i can agree to that even when something is currently in the nebulous ahelp void. but becoming the shitter police yourself because you deem the admins too cringe and slow to do what you want so now it falls on you to clean up roleplay town of cringe ass nae nae terry toolbelt thieves? bad form, unnecessary and just as harmful to the RP space as the thief having no real IC reason for theft in the first place.

[Drag]

I decided to take a nap ffs.

To touch on some points:

Most likely Drag concluded: "Not even worth entertaining an unban."

Basically, yes. When your appeal reads with as much hostility as your ticket does I'm not willing to unban someone.

I really, really hate this mentality. If someone is griefing you and breaking rules, you CANNOT retaliate!

Am I wrong for thinking that people who want admins to handle things should step back and let admins handle things? They gave an ahelp and then IMMEDIATELY beat the assistant into crit. What is the point of the admin team if it's just a fucking free for all? I was IN THE MIDDLE of checking antagonist status of everyone involved before responding.

also there were nukies

Nukies spawned AFTER this.

do you truly believe that people are just... deserving to get permas in due time?

That is not what I fucking meant, Ducks, and you know that.

What IS the current server culture you take issue with

I don't like the direction MRP's rules have gone, I tried it and I don't like it. That's just a personal take of mine.

we're all running this on the assumption that baal was in the wrong for beating the shit out of someone for stealing their shit.

I have already stated that them retaliating against the assistant is not the problem, the problem is them lethally retaliating and throwing the assistant into the under tram and fucking off.


I am NOT going to sit and debate with someone who is being hostile when their escalation was just as the escalation they were pointing out. If people don't learn and adapt to the rules they get slapped, simple as. I wouldn't have started the tickets response with a half-baked threat if they didn't open the ticket itself being somewhat hostile. Calling someone a piece of trash is not okay. I would have been more willing to unban them if they just cooled off and approached the appeal with a cooler head and actually reflected on the situation.

Yeah, if you steal from medbay you're a bitch and deserve to be beaten. However, there is a LINE and it was CROSSED. The logs don't show the fact I was typing, had to delete a completely different response, then retype a new thing as I watched the entire thing go down.

[BeeSting12]

realistically the fucker who stole his stuff deserved to be beaten and critted and thrown under the train

however, the rules specifically forbid that unfortunately

appealer was a dumbass for ahelping and then going and then going to break the rules

appealer was also a dumbass for insulting admins and ignoring requests to follow the rules

[iwishforducks]

I decided to take a nap ffs.

To touch on some points:

Most likely Drag concluded: "Not even worth entertaining an unban."

Basically, yes. When your appeal reads with as much hostility as your ticket does I'm not willing to unban someone.

this is like the third ban appeal where you've planted your feet in the ground, crossed your arms, and said that you're not even going to entertain the appeal. like the appeal is not even that hostile. i've heard snails bark louder than that appeal

I really, really hate this mentality. If someone is griefing you and breaking rules, you CANNOT retaliate!

Am I wrong for thinking that people who want admins to handle things should step back and let admins handle things? They gave an ahelp and then IMMEDIATELY beat the assistant into crit. What is the point of the admin team if it's just a fucking free for all? I was IN THE MIDDLE of checking antagonist status of everyone involved before responding.

this is their reasoning:

Shortly before this I ahelped to get an admin to talk to the person since they were obviously self-antagging.

even in baal's dumbass self-righteousness they at least recognize that admins are here to stop future behavior. i don't think baal expected you to kiss the boo boo of stolen items but they probably expect you to, you know, do your job and talk to people.

also there were nukies

Nukies spawned AFTER this.

apologies, but there were some bodies built up in medical i think. i dont know i like skimmed the logs and saw a mention of nukies and several dead people complaining about medical taking too long to revive them

do you truly believe that people are just... deserving to get permas in due time?

That is not what I fucking meant, Ducks, and you know that.

well what DID you mean then

What IS the current server culture you take issue with

I don't like the direction MRP's rules have gone, I tried it and I don't like it. That's just a personal take of mine.

ok. doesnt seem all that relevant. confused as to why you brought this up in the first place, but ok

we're all running this on the assumption that baal was in the wrong for beating the shit out of someone for stealing their shit.

I have already stated that them retaliating against the assistant is not the problem, the problem is them lethally retaliating and throwing the assistant into the under tram and fucking off.

how else could they have retaliated? what are they expected to just... use their non existent stun baton to non-lethally retaliate? considering that they had returned AFTER stealing their toolbelt to then steal their ID again I would 100% consider that self-antagging behavior and thus "act like an antag, get treated like an antag" - throwing a two-time medbay thief below the tram and not caring what happens to him is 100% reasonable. you're saying this as if they took precious steps to round remove the assistant when they simply dumped them into the tram maints below in front of like several people. it's not like they were taking them to a fuck off place to make sure they didn't get revived.

when their escalation was just as the escalation they were pointing out. (more words but i think i've already addressed this with my previous paragraphs/posts and this post is already becoming a tower)

so..... they... escalated? ICly? this seems like escalation. when you steal items the conflict doesn't just magically go away once you walk away. also, again, two-time medbay thief, self-antagging, etc.

[Fren256]

What IS the current server culture you take issue with

I don't like the direction MRP's rules have gone, I tried it and I don't like it. That's just a personal take of mine.

I'm curious about this. Which rules do you not like and why?

[Drag]

What IS the current server culture you take issue with

I don't like the direction MRP's rules have gone, I tried it and I don't like it. That's just a personal take of mine.

I'm curious about this. Which rules do you not like and why?

I personally believe that more roleplay restrictions should be placed to raise the standards of roleplay BEFORE we open the floodgates with more freedoms. On top of that, a lot of things are not clearly defined and should be. This is a tangent of the original p-nut, I can delve more into my thoughts in Discord if you'd like.

[Jackraxxus]

Server would be better if both sides of this were banned.
Also ban Drag for posting in a peanut about a ban they placed thx.

[conrad]

Server would be better if both sides of this were banned.
Also ban Drag for posting in a peanut about a ban they placed thx.

We should ban you as well for suggesting this ban. And me for suggesting this ban.

[datorangebottle]

We should ban me just because.

[Drag]

Server would be better if both sides of this were banned.
Also ban Drag for posting in a peanut about a ban they placed thx.

Banning Jaxx for gatekeeping a p-nut post that I am allowed to post in

[Armhulen]

i've heard snails bark louder than that appeal

WHO IS YOUR GHOST WRITER THESE LINES ARE FIREEE

[saprasam]

the logical conclusion from this discussion is to just kill people who slight you

[Drag]

well what DID you mean then

Players with consistently poor gameplay will inevitably eat a perma because typically there is no effort made to improve. Some players do try and improve, and they don't get banned or the people who have been banned come back with a fresher newer attitude that is healthier for them and the server.

[Timberpoes]

Round is over, first and foremost: I am not interested in lifting this ban.

This is just something I've been seeing often, personally I'm more of a "this is why i'm worried about unbanning you" than a "i've decided i'm not unbanning you" kinda guy. A lotta people need more than one post to reach a conclusion where they have learned they fucked up in some way. I dunno, what do you think guys?

Anecdotally, I think the vast majority of players that instantly request headmin review instead of engaging with the admin tend to do so when the admin flat out denies the appeal with no door to continued conversation.

[kinnebian]

*phew*
another hard day on the peanut fields, time to collect my harvest!

[Muffindrake]

Also I will slab you if you do not take that assistant to medbay, as it is part of our escalation policy.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Bonk-Cheems-Vi ... C92&sr=8-1

You should put this on your desk.

Don't start ahelps with flippant threats if you want respect back.

[Muffindrake]

Should a person be noted or banned for OOC in IC if they post an appeal before the round ends.
I think they should.

Ahelping ahead of time for rulebreakers, which is high latency, or posting an appeal right away so that your unfair ban isn't protracted longer than necessary. Two sides of the same coin. Ahelps are godawful moderation tools.

[conrad]

Double-posted on their own peanut. Oh noes.

[dendydoom]

the logical conclusion from this discussion is to just kill people who slight you

uh oh... this one funny joke post has activated my essaypost instinct... run... RUN...

i live and breathe manuel and unironically some regular players think this way and it's just as concerning to me as shitters who think stealing from injured people in medbay for 0 IC reason constitutes good conflict. the thief absolutely deserved to be told to not do stupid things like that without an IC reason, but imo players shouldn't feel empowered to drop the mindset of RP to dispense OOCly motivated deathmatch justice because they deem the other person a shitter and therefore they don't deserve to live. it sets a godawful standard for dealing with IC conflict and it's entitled behaviour at the root of it all. self-antagging is not "doing a mildly annoying thing that i don't like", there is no coded antag that asks you to be a nuisance and steal someone's toolbelt and throw it at them when they chase you, and it definitely doesn't mean "i get to treat you with utter OOC contempt and murder you because doing a thing i don't like is against the rules".

escalation policy also states:

If a conflict leads to violence and either participant is incapacitated, the standing participant is expected to make an effort to treat the other, unless they have reason to believe the other was an antagonist.

it's utter nonsense to think that because someone took your toolbelt you have a valid reason to seriously suspect them of being an antag. labelling minor shithead behaviour as self-antagging on the same level as a traitor sets a seriously poor precedent if we really expect people to utilize escalation properly. "he took my toolbelt so now he may as well be a nukie to me" is a thinly veiled excuse to OOCly kill someone for OOCly upsetting you in response to an admittedly dumb IC situation. it's extremely lame to go and quote space law of all things in a thread like this, but i'm doing it anyway: pickpocketing/theft carries a 2 minute brig sentence. there is already a precedent set for the existence of this type of IC criminal behaviour. if every minor nuisance IC crime came with an OOC labelling of "self-antagging" then you could kill someone and throw their mangled body into the gutter to rot for just about anything.

i was in this round. there was a fully manned sec team. nukies did not appear until over an hour later. there were multiple valid ways to decide how to deal with the situation that still kept it firmly within the realm of RP, but the appealer decided to take the one where they OOCly murder someone for a slight against them because they clearly wanted to OOCly punish them for their behaviour.

[iwishforducks]

antags have a license to grief, non-antags do not have a license to grief. stealing someone’s shit not once but twice to purposefully fuck with them is very much “act like an antag, get treated like an antag” - you’ll notice that Baal didn’t ahelp until after the second thievery. you’re correct that stealing the toolbelt once doesn’t necessarily constitute antag behavior, it’s the fact that they came around a second time

[Striders13]

Honestly... I like what Linden is doing here. He's being a shitter but he's also accepting the consequences of his actions (he didn't even fight back when lynched!). I think it's a perfect example of a little gremlin that's nice to see once in a while, if only to get the satisfaction of lynching them. I played a round as security with them as assistant, and spent the entire round brigging them over and over again for various crimes. He carefully skirted the line of "too much grief" for it to be enjoyable experience.

As for the ban itself,

► Show Spoiler

lol