VIVA LA… Supermatter?

[sinfulbliss]

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=34405

And then God said, “station power > killing the heads of staff”

[The Wrench]

The antagonist flow chart and its consequences have been a disaster for the station

[BlueMemesauce]

still don't understand why everyone was against the removal of assembly bombs

[Itseasytosee2me]

I hate to be the guy who advocates against multi-antag shenanigan's, but It would probably be alot better if conversion antags couldn't convert solo antagonists.
Doesn't have to be in a lame way either! We have the cult-heretic interaction that's pretty neat. I think we could have similar setups for other conversions, maybe heretic/traitors/changelings fake being reved, but after 10 minutes or until they attack a revolutionary they lose the R above their name? Maybe traitors automatically get promoted to headrevs and loose their traitor status but keep their uplink? Maybe these get converted into a fun 3rd type of antag? Changeling getting infused with unholy power on sacrifice and becoming something else?

Being two antags at once is !!FUN!! and I understand the appeal, so improve and don't remove, and instead make something special and unique happen when something special happens.

[Turbonerd]

still don't understand why everyone was against the removal of assembly bombs

It was a salt PR, and it's fun blowing up people with bombs. There is a meta trend with them right now, and maybe it is annoying seeing them every round. But with all meta trends, it will die down in time to be more reasonable, just like how singlecaps died down even though there are still multiple recipes for them. Not a reason to remove or "balance" something.

[BlueMemesauce]

the pr was made 3 months ago but it's clearly still a problem. you should not be able to have 10 bombs in your backpack that all can crit the CE in his hardsuit from 3 tiles away.
"its just an over 3 month long trend, just wait one more month then the mass producible bomb will somehow suddenly stop being used for some reason"
singlecaps stopped being used because its against the rules to blow up the entire station over and over, that's their main purpose since they aren't as good at killing specific people since they're harder to use in a fight. while assembly bombs can be mass produced at the sighting of a loud antagonist and can just be thrown at people and targeted very precisely. they aren't comparable, assembly bombs are much more op in actual fights.

[blackdav123]

i had a guy throw four assembly bombs at me while I was a space dragon and when the fourth one finally hit I was instantly gibbed

that mfer had 6 more if he kept missing!!

[Turbonerd]

the pr was made 3 months ago but it's clearly still a problem. you should not be able to have 10 bombs in your backpack that all can crit the CE in his hardsuit from 3 tiles away.
"its just an over 3 month long trend, just wait one more month then the mass producible bomb will somehow suddenly stop being used for some reason"
singlecaps stopped being used because its against the rules to blow up the entire station over and over, that's their main purpose since they aren't as good at killing specific people since they're harder to use in a fight. while assembly bombs can be mass produced at the sighting of a loud antagonist and can just be thrown at people and targeted very precisely. they aren't comparable, assembly bombs are much more op in actual fights.

Just ahelp it lol.

[conrad]

SHE WILL DUST YOU DEAD
Viva la Supermatter
SHARDS ARE DEVIL YELLOW
Viva la Supermatter

[Kendrickorium]

I hate to be the guy who advocates against multi-antag shenanigan's, but It would probably be alot better if conversion antags couldn't convert solo antagonists.
Doesn't have to be in a lame way either! We have the cult-heretic interaction that's pretty neat. I think we could have similar setups for other conversions, maybe heretic/traitors/changelings fake being reved, but after 10 minutes or until they attack a revolutionary they lose the R above their name? Maybe traitors automatically get promoted to headrevs and loose their traitor status but keep their uplink? Maybe these get converted into a fun 3rd type of antag? Changeling getting infused with unholy power on sacrifice and becoming something else?

Being two antags at once is !!FUN!! and I understand the appeal, so improve and don't remove, and instead make something special and unique happen when something special happens.

all these good ideas

[iain0]

Like the thread title.

The IC conversion as brainwashing is presumably absolute, does that extend to OOC?

Also, mixing antags in with revs generally I feel misses some of the key of the revs game mode which is a "pitchforks" and other basic equipment riot to the death ultimately, even just having antags exist taints the crew sided pool into being of questionable loyalty (since they lack the 'team' of the revolution side), not to mention their special abilities ending up playing largely for the revs (unless literal head of staff antag). Then again, not the biggest fan of revs over all.

[dendydoom]

my thoughts on multitags have always been that they should be free to pursue their other objectives as long as 1) it doesn't actively harm their own team efforts and 2) isn't being done at a time when they could actively be helping their team, ie, ignoring a fight breaking out in front of them to steal the nuke core or whatever. the idea that you must absolutely not do your lower-tier directives at all even when it would harm no one and not impede your team feels a little weird.

imo rev's objectives are to kill heads and convert nonheads, not make the station uninhabitable because ultimately they want to wrest control of the station, not destroy it. the caveat to this is, as always, strong IC reasoning trumps all. if command are somehow dependent on the engine to power some sort of megashield around the bridge then obviously blowing up the engine to get them is fine because you can directly connect its use to your objectives, but this is an insane scenario that only exists in my imagination. bombing the engine because power is useful to the enemy is the same sort of reasoning as plasmaflooding the entire station because your enemy breathes air.

also, i may be misinterpreting the appeal OP, but responding to the CE sabotaging the engine by blowing that same engine up in a much more destructive way is a line of reasoning that leaves me in awe.

[sinfulbliss]

i think the multitag discussion is irrelevant since it’s more important whether it’s justified for a rev to destroy power in pursuit of a head

i would say it is but that’s just me

[conrad]

I agree with the fact that the multitag discussion isn't really relevant. When you're part of a team antag, it takes precedence over solo antag objectives. Them being a heretic is dead in the water after a headrev flashed them.

However, looking at this from the sole prism of a rev, I feel you could very easily justify detonating engineering after the CE threatened to do a singulo/tesloose. The IC reasoning exists there; the revolutionary doesn't have to be competent. He's not harming his team doing that (gameplay wise, since we're talking about the rules); You can live without power, and you're harming the enemy just as much. Plus, you get to avoid a catastrophe, and kill a head. Win win.

It's LRP, you don't have to have a narrative behind the revolution. The IC justification is there, and the story will be that the revolution (assuming it won, I didn't check) will have ousted Nanotrasen and then left to die on an engine-less, dark, cold space station.

Assuming solars don't exi-oh wait, they do.

I disagree with this note.

EDIT: Oh yeah, I forgot to comment on this.

also, i may be misinterpreting the appeal OP, but responding to the CE sabotaging the engine by blowing that same engine up in a much more destructive way is a line of reasoning that leaves me in awe.

Delaminating the SM is way, way less destructive than unleashing a singulary or letting out a tesla that will just go door to door collecting crew members and killing them.

[ekaterina]

Conrad is the voice of reason! The world has gone mad. Will I see pigs flying if I look outside?

[dendydoom]

EDIT: Oh yeah, I forgot to comment on this.

also, i may be misinterpreting the appeal OP, but responding to the CE sabotaging the engine by blowing that same engine up in a much more destructive way is a line of reasoning that leaves me in awe.

Delaminating the SM is way, way less destructive than unleashing a singulary or letting out a tesla that will just go door to door collecting crew members and killing them.

it's very likely that i'm interpreting the OP's story wrong. there are phrases in the story which confused me:

(they were gonna try to contain a singulo/tesla with the main supermatter which will also produce no power though that doesn't excuse the actions)

contain? did they mean create? this would make much more sense with what you're implying.

still was gonna turn the main SM into a tesla/singularity which would produce zero power its a popular trend of engineering to do this

same with this, was the CE trying to sabotage the engine with the intention of making it produce 0 power or were they explicitly threatening to tesla/singuloose?

without checking the logs of the round myself and finding out what evidence they used to deduce that the CE was intending to do this (i'm lazy and shall not be doing this (´・ω・`)) it's very hard to give my own judgement on it, so i stuck to giving my comfortable shitposty commentary from the spectator's stand. it's a bit weird that the CE would think it was cool to respond to revs by creating a tesla/singuloose so i was apprehensive to make that assumption, but i also don't play lrp so i don't know how cool you crazy motherfuckers are with stuff like that.

though if you're correct in your interpretation then yeah, i would agree that blowing the engine up is ultimately better than tesla/singuloose. there would be better ways to go about it (why bomb it at all?) but in the heat of the moment i try not to judge too harshly about what insane schemes someone comes up with. if the CE wasn't trying to do that, then bombing the engine seems counterproductive to the ultimate goal of the revolution. if the CE was holed up in such a way that it's extremely difficult to get to them so they resorted to a bomb, then i could also understand that line of reasoning. there are too many missing details to give my official thoughts on whether it was truly a reasonable choice of action or whether it was just someone with a bomb who wanted to see a big boom so used an easy opportunity.

[Ezel]

The CE has been planning it before Revs even were known/existed (since revs always have a little delay roundstart before getting the auctall antag status) if they used a shard for this then it would be more reasonable then using the main supermatter

This was on LRP and i dont know why the bombing the engine room is so big of a issue just only a few piping got destroyed sure you could argue theres 4 giant holes for this but stuff like this is easily fixable (IF we use smart foam for its intended function and not some escape/combat tool) then those holes are easily sealed piping is easily fixed SM would be easily stabilized with a little help from the atmos area i don't think the SM delimination start is a issue when it comes to the power arguement since theres 3 smesses filled with power + the solars(with its own smess) still producing power it isn't like the situation is unsalvagable it easily could be fixed and was fixed

Like i don't even care about the note i just want more perspective views then just my own because i think its just a little silly for what was on a LRP server if it was on MRP it would make sense

[kinnebian]

The CE has been planning it before Revs even were known/existed (since revs always have a little delay roundstart before getting the auctall antag status) if they used a shard for this then it would be more reasonable then using the main supermatter

This was on LRP and i dont know why the bombing the engine room is so big of a issue just only a few piping got destroyed sure you could argue theres 4 giant holes for this but stuff like this is easily fixable (IF we use smart foam for its intended function and not some escape/combat tool) then those holes are easily sealed piping is easily fixed SM would be easily stabilized with a little help from the atmos area i don't think the SM delimination start is a issue when it comes to the power arguement since theres 3 smesses filled with power + the solars(with its own smess) still producing power it isn't like the situation is unsalvagable it easily could be fixed and was fixed

Like i don't even care about the note i just want more perspective views then just my own because i think its just a little silly for what was on a LRP server if it was on MRP it would make sense

is punctuation outlawed or something where you live

[conrad]

EDIT: Oh yeah, I forgot to comment on this.

also, i may be misinterpreting the appeal OP, but responding to the CE sabotaging the engine by blowing that same engine up in a much more destructive way is a line of reasoning that leaves me in awe.

Delaminating the SM is way, way less destructive than unleashing a singulary or letting out a tesla that will just go door to door collecting crew members and killing them.

it's very likely that i'm interpreting the OP's story wrong. there are phrases in the story which confused me:

(they were gonna try to contain a singulo/tesla with the main supermatter which will also produce no power though that doesn't excuse the actions)

contain? did they mean create? this would make much more sense with what you're implying.

still was gonna turn the main SM into a tesla/singularity which would produce zero power its a popular trend of engineering to do this

same with this, was the CE trying to sabotage the engine with the intention of making it produce 0 power or were they explicitly threatening to tesla/singuloose?

without checking the logs of the round myself and finding out what evidence they used to deduce that the CE was intending to do this (i'm lazy and shall not be doing this (´・ω・`)) it's very hard to give my own judgement on it, so i stuck to giving my comfortable shitposty commentary from the spectator's stand. it's a bit weird that the CE would think it was cool to respond to revs by creating a tesla/singuloose so i was apprehensive to make that assumption, but i also don't play lrp so i don't know how cool you crazy motherfuckers are with stuff like that.

though if you're correct in your interpretation then yeah, i would agree that blowing the engine up is ultimately better than tesla/singuloose. there would be better ways to go about it (why bomb it at all?) but in the heat of the moment i try not to judge too harshly about what insane schemes someone comes up with. if the CE wasn't trying to do that, then bombing the engine seems counterproductive to the ultimate goal of the revolution. if the CE was holed up in such a way that it's extremely difficult to get to them so they resorted to a bomb, then i could also understand that line of reasoning. there are too many missing details to give my official thoughts on whether it was truly a reasonable choice of action or whether it was just someone with a bomb who wanted to see a big boom so used an easy opportunity.

So like, in the last 8 months of my return from exile, I've not seen or heard of someone succesfully containing a singulo or a tesla. That's without considering revs in the equation. It's very safe to assume a CE doing this is gonna doom the station. Even before I stopped playing five years ago, almost every round with a singulo engine (my beloved) resulted in people making BoH's to try and kill it after it inevitably got loose.

There was this round on Manuel recently (I think last month?) where I got bwoinked 'cos I fullstripped the acting captain (a QM) as HoP, took their spare, bucklecuffed them to a chair and called them names. Apparently I was being "HoPcurity" and not sticking to my lane. Except the QM joked about building the BSA on the bridge. This being MRP, and the QM being acting captain, I took that seriously. What the appealant did was to take the singulo threat seriously.

People, especially admins, need to remember that sharding a new engine is very easy. People on Terry not doing it is no excuse for treating the SM like the holy grail.

All that being said, I would've noted the guy myself if they weren't revs. There are other ways to solve this particular conflict besides sabotaging a department if you're not an antag. Being revs and having the rules bound obligation to protect your team mates, dude was justified IMO.

is punctuation outlawed or something where you live

THAT WAS SO FUCKING UNNECESSARY AHAHAHAHAHAHA jfc Kinneb

Conrad is the voice of reason! The world has gone mad. Will I see pigs flying if I look outside?

I am rarely wrong.

[Kendrickorium]

bring back gangs

[conrad]

Thanks Kendrick, now I don't have to doublepost.

Like i don't even care about the note i just want more perspective views then just my own because i think its just a little silly for what was on a LRP server if it was on MRP it would make sense

Frankly, I'd hesitate to act upon this on MRP if there were no non-mindshielded casualties, barring some rule 7 fuckery. (i.e.: if it was done in good faith or bad faith)

[ekaterina]

All that being said, I would've noted the guy myself if they weren't revs.

... what? He got noted precisely because he'd been turned into a rev beforehand. Otherwise, it would've just been a solo antag doing solo antag things.

(I'm not saying this note makes sense, of course it doesn't - he didn't hinder his team and, per rule 4, "[t]eam antagonists can do whatever they want as per lone antagonists, as long as it doesn’t harm their team")

[conrad]

All that being said, I would've noted the guy myself if they weren't revs.

... what? He got noted precisely because he'd been turned into a rev beforehand. Otherwise, it would've just been a solo antag doing solo antag things.

(I'm not saying this note makes sense, of course it doesn't - he didn't hinder his team and, per rule 4, "[t]eam antagonists can do whatever they want as per lone antagonists, as long as it doesn’t harm their team")

Oh, right, I forget you choose to be confused and angry at admins rather than approaching a broader interpretation.

I meant if this was done by a non-antag.

[Itseasytosee2me]

-snip-

all these good ideas

Glad you think so, been floating the idea around and most people (maintainers included) seem to think there is some sanctity in players being multi-antag.