Terry Admin Seethes Over Successful Cult Recruitment Campaign

[Kendrickorium]

Bottom post of the previous page:

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=34955

[kieth4]

post them sir

So, here's the appealer's portrayal

I, the research director, was taking part in a raid on the ritual site of the cult. We were seemingly winning, and I along with a mediborg stayed to get a deepcrit cultist to brig for deconversion. Suddenly, a wraith rushes out of captain's office (where the ritual was taking place) and hurt as I am I get put into crit. When I get up, I am surrounded by a strike squad of fully armed and armored cultists and constructs, and as I see absolutely no chance of survival otherwise, I surrender. The cultists prepare an offering circle beneath me, and as it flashes red I am instantly gibbed by Thunder

When looking at the logs, you see this

Spoiler:

[2023-09-17 15:12:18.184] ATTACK: Maxipat/(Shade of Mei Fumiwara) attacked Annihilite/(Hans Heisenberg) (NEWHP: 100) (Command Hallway (104,126,2))
[2023-09-17 15:12:31.937] ATTACK: Crayno/(Nyla Harrow) shot Annihilite/(Hans Heisenberg) with the laser (NEWHP: 91) (Command Hallway (117,126,2))
[2023-09-17 15:12:39.307] ATTACK: MiniMeatwad/(Rebecca Gettemy) used a cult spell on Annihilite/(Hans Heisenberg) with Stun (NEWHP: 66) (Command Hallway (119,127,2))
[2023-09-17 15:12:44.240] ATTACK: MiniMeatwad/(Rebecca Gettemy) attacked Annihilite/(Hans Heisenberg) with eldritch longsword (COMBAT MODE: 0) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 36) (Captain's Quarters (117,128,2))
[2023-09-17 15:12:57.748] ATTACK: Crayno/(Nyla Harrow) stun attacked Annihilite/(Hans Heisenberg) with the stun baton (NEWHP: 36) (Captain's Quarters (117,128,2))
[2023-09-17 15:12:57.752] ATTACK: Crayno/(Nyla Harrow) attacked Annihilite/(Hans Heisenberg) with stun baton (COMBAT MODE: 0) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 26) (Captain's Quarters (117,128,2))

So, for a minute they generally get wailed on by cult, and fall to 26 hp, then being healed by a borg. They never fell into crit.

[2023-09-17 15:13:32.615] ATTACK: Psyduckxoxo/(P.A.L. 9000) transferred reagents (/datum/reagent/medicine/c2/libital (5u, 0.75 purity)) from to Annihilite/(Hans Heisenberg) (NEWHP: 26) (Bridge (113,129,2))
More healing logs...
[2023-09-17 15:13:36.367] ATTACK: Annihilite/(Hans Heisenberg) temp shocked for 30 seconds [Captain's Quarters] (Bridge (114,129,2))
[2023-09-17 15:13:36.391] ATTACK: [Captain's Quarters] electrocuted Annihilite/(Hans Heisenberg) (NEWHP: 6.9) (Captain's Quarters (115,130,2))
More healing logs...

They shock themselves on Captain's door. Still not in crit.
After this, there is another scuffle with cultists

[2023-09-17 15:13:57.313] ATTACK: Tqkres/(Firar Baba) stun attacked Annihilite/(Hans Heisenberg) with the telescopic baton (NEWHP: 37.9) (Captain's Quarters (115,130,2))
(Notice the 37 health from the heals)
Ton of logs about the borg flashing people...
[2023-09-17 15:14:47.107] ATTACK: Annihilite/(Hans Heisenberg) stun attacked LoonLaer/(Ivan Pavlovich) with the telescopic baton (NEWHP: -10.1) (Gateway (116,124,2))
[2023-09-17 15:14:47.987] ATTACK: Annihilite/(Hans Heisenberg) attacked LoonLaer/(Ivan Pavlovich) with telescopic baton (COMBAT MODE: 1) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: -15.1) (Gateway (116,124,2))
Cuff, strip and attack logs of this guy, up to
[2023-09-17 15:16:30.102] ATTACK: Annihilite/(Hans Heisenberg) has stripped LoonLaer/(Ivan Pavlovich) of the breath mask. (Command Hallway (114,127,2))

You have now spent 3 minutes dicking around in the cult infested command area, all of this time you can run away.

[2023-09-17 15:16:35.265] ATTACK: SirNooben/(Wraith (829)) attacked Annihilite/(Hans Heisenberg) (NEWHP: 100) (Command Hallway (104,127,2))

Here is the wraith referred to in the appeal. The RD is now at 100% health from the borg's healing.

[2023-09-17 15:16:36.079] ATTACK: Annihilite/(Hans Heisenberg) grabbed LoonLaer/(Ivan Pavlovich) aggressive grab (NEWHP: -79.7) (Command Hallway (101,127,2))
[2023-09-17 15:16:36.127] ATTACK: SirNooben/(Wraith (829)) attacked Annihilite/(Hans Heisenberg) (NEWHP: 85) (Command Hallway (102,127,2))
[2023-09-17 15:16:36.962] ATTACK: Annihilite/(Hans Heisenberg) thrown LoonLaer/(Ivan Pavlovich) grab from tile in Command Hallway (99,127,2) towards tile at Command Hallway (103,126,2) (NEWHP: -79.7) (Command Hallway (99,127,2))
[2023-09-17 15:16:36.964] ATTACK: Annihilite/(Hans Heisenberg) has thrown Ivan Pavlovich (Command Hallway (99,127,2))
[2023-09-17 15:16:37.360] ATTACK: SirNooben/(Wraith (829)) attacked Annihilite/(Hans Heisenberg) (NEWHP: 70) (Command Hallway (98,127,2))
[2023-09-17 15:16:41.710] ATTACK: SirNooben/(Wraith (829)) attacked Annihilite/(Hans Heisenberg) (NEWHP: 55) (Command Hallway (111,127,2))

At this point, the wraith starts a fight with the borg and stops caring about the RD for a while. The RD has never entered crit like he claims. As far as I see they could have ran away while the borg scuffle happened. I don't see any logs of anything that would knock them out either.
Then, 20 seconds later...

[2023-09-17 15:17:03.521] GAME-SAY: Annihilite/(Hans Heisenberg) "i surrender" (Command Hallway (120,126,2))
[2023-09-17 15:17:04.054] ATTACK: SirNooben/(Wraith (829)) attacked Annihilite/(Hans Heisenberg) (NEWHP: 35) (Command Hallway (120,127,2))
[2023-09-17 15:17:06.701] GAME-EMOTE: Annihilite/(Hans Heisenberg) puts his hands on his head and falls to the ground, he surrenders! (Command Hallway (120,126,2))

The RD surrenders and 30 seconds later gets converted

I think that as the RD that hangs around in the cult infested area for 5 minutes for the purpose of fucking with cultists you don't have the excuse of fear RP to surrender instead of trying to run away.

I mean, they're fighting for a bit then he surrenders. It's possible he hit a wall and just thought that like; "hey I can't win anymore no point in fighting" so they gave up. There was some previous attempt made and it did seem kinda goodish faith (subjective)

Their perspective is a bit skewed sure- (I think this could be due to like, just how hectic the sitch was and them misremembering I know for certain that I misremember like, only a few bits of a situation and neglect others but in a genuine accident as my brain latches on the action important stuff and it all merges)

but that's just my 2 cents.

[datorangebottle]

This administrative action sucks.
Enforcing rules as written over rules as intended is what leads to a player perception of admins as 'banbots'.
The note is not factually correct: it deliberately leaves out that there was an extended fight beforehand. This makes it look like the player just ran up to some cultists and laid down, when factually he fought them for a while and *surrender ed so he wouldn't die.
It is unreasonably harsh: it completely disregards any nuance the situation has and leaves a factually incorrect blemish on the player's record for other admins to see and take at face value.
As a final point, he gibbed the player and removed them from the round entirely because they dared try to contribute to a story as opposed to just ungaing and smashing their face against the cultists' swords.
0/10, please send Thunder back to admin training school until he learns that this is a game first and a rule-following simulator second.

[Imitates-The-Lizards]

that's not what i would do i'd just die trying to kill them :p

Literal NRP behavior.

The appealer is right, just because they roleplay self-preservation instincts, but you, a head admin, treat your character as a game character instead of a roleplay character, does not they're in the wrong here.

[Fikou]

I mean, they're fighting for a bit then he surrenders. It's possible he hit a wall and just thought that like; "hey I can't win anymore no point in fighting" so they gave up. There was some previous attempt made and it did seem kinda goodish faith (subjective)

Their perspective is a bit skewed sure- (I think this could be due to like, just how hectic the sitch was and them misremembering I know for certain that I misremember like, only a few bits of a situation and neglect others but in a genuine accident as my brain latches on the action important stuff and it all merges)

but that's just my 2 cents.

It's difficult to see good faith in an appeal when it contains wrong information- When you come to the forums you're expected to have already gathered up the view of the situation to present the best case for the admin and the rest of the team, who probably hasn't even seen the situation.
In contrast in this appeal you have a guy talking about stuff that didn't happen and doesn't really explain anything, like why he just stood there in command hallway for 20 seconds not doing anything before surrendering randomly.

Literal NRP behavior.

The appealer is right, just because they roleplay self-preservation instincts, but you, a head admin, treat your character as a game character instead of a roleplay character, does not they're in the wrong here.

cool jab bro?

[Imitates-The-Lizards]

Literal NRP behavior.

The appealer is right, just because they roleplay self-preservation instincts, but you, a head admin, treat your character as a game character instead of a roleplay character, does not they're in the wrong here.

cool jab bro?

Not a jab, my comment was in no way meant to be insulting or jabbing. But the behavior you're describing is literally and unironically NRP "playing the game as a game" (As opposed to playing it as an RP sandbox) behavior.

Unless you play your character as a religious martyr who will die to fight off evil, a paragon of truth and justice who will not rest until the cult of Nar'sie is wiped off the station. Which I doubt.

[kieth4]

I mean, they're fighting for a bit then he surrenders. It's possible he hit a wall and just thought that like; "hey I can't win anymore no point in fighting" so they gave up. There was some previous attempt made and it did seem kinda goodish faith (subjective)

Their perspective is a bit skewed sure- (I think this could be due to like, just how hectic the sitch was and them misremembering I know for certain that I misremember like, only a few bits of a situation and neglect others but in a genuine accident as my brain latches on the action important stuff and it all merges)

but that's just my 2 cents.

It's difficult to see good faith in an appeal when it contains wrong information- When you come to the forums you're expected to have already gathered up the view of the situation to present the best case for the admin and the rest of the team, who probably hasn't even seen the situation.
In contrast in this appeal you have a guy talking about stuff that didn't happen and doesn't really explain anything, like why he just stood there in command hallway for 20 seconds not doing anything before surrendering randomly.

Literal NRP behavior.

The appealer is right, just because they roleplay self-preservation instincts, but you, a head admin, treat your character as a game character instead of a roleplay character, does not they're in the wrong here.

cool jab bro?

I think it's very easy to say something like that as an admin kinda. A player probably won't know how to log dive outside of scrubby and will just go 99% of his memory. I see forums as a place to pick something apart (and get this done by everyone) as opposed to like having to get all the info right. They're very obtuse and the systems to get the correct info are even worse rlly

[Fikou]

Literal NRP behavior.

The appealer is right, just because they roleplay self-preservation instincts, but you, a head admin, treat your character as a game character instead of a roleplay character, does not they're in the wrong here.

cool jab bro?

Not a jab, my comment was in no way meant to be insulting or jabbing. But the behavior you're describing is literally and unironically NRP "playing the game as a game" behavior.

Unless you play your character as a religious martyr who will die to fight off evil, a paragon of truth and justice who will not rest until the cult of Nar'sie is wiped off the station. Which I doubt.

You're saying that I think they are in the wrong because that's not what I'd do, which is a total misconstruction of my point, to the point where it feels malicious.
Obviously there are cases where surrendering is fine. If you're a doctor that gets jumped in science by cultists with no way out, that sounds like a great way to not die.
I don't think this is one of these cases.
Saying "roleplay self-preservation instincts" doesn't really make much sense when:
a) The guy was hanging around the murder cult (in command hallway/bridge/caps office/gateway, where the cult stuff was happening) for 5 minutes and from what I see in the logs, had every chance to preserve their life by running away.
b) You imagine the only way to roleplay as an emotionally stable human from current year. It's 2560, I'm someone in a giant vastness of space who sold their soul to Nanotrasen, was trained to live on a station on the frontier filled with risk and had their emotions and fear of death numbed by the existence of technology like cloning. Why not get some adrenaline and protect the corpo providing for me (oh, and stop a cult trying to summon a literal eldritch god) if it doesn't matter either way? (AGAIN. FOR WHOEVER DECIDES TO USE THIS OUT OF CONTEXT TO BE A SHITHEAD. NOT WHAT THE APPEALER NEEDS TO DO. NOT WHAT IM SAYING THE APPEALER EVEN SHOULD DO.)

[kayozz]

Don't let the rules get in the way of a good story.

Exactly this. No more needs to be said. Not every player is John Wick.
Why punish the John Lennon?

[Imitates-The-Lizards]

Literal NRP behavior.

The appealer is right, just because they roleplay self-preservation instincts, but you, a head admin, treat your character as a game character instead of a roleplay character, does not they're in the wrong here.

cool jab bro?

Not a jab, my comment was in no way meant to be insulting or jabbing. But the behavior you're describing is literally and unironically NRP "playing the game as a game" behavior.

Unless you play your character as a religious martyr who will die to fight off evil, a paragon of truth and justice who will not rest until the cult of Nar'sie is wiped off the station. Which I doubt.

You're saying that I think they are in the wrong because that's not what I'd do, which is a total misconstruction of my point, to the point where it feels malicious.
Obviously there are cases where surrendering is fine. If you're a doctor that gets jumped in science by cultists with no way out, that sounds like a great way to not die.
I don't think this is one of these cases.
Saying "roleplay self-preservation instincts" doesn't really make much sense when:
a) The guy was hanging around the murder cult (in command hallway/bridge/caps office/gateway, where the cult stuff was happening) for 5 minutes and from what I see in the logs, had every chance to preserve their life by running away.
b) You imagine the only way to roleplay as an emotionally stable human from current year. It's 2560, I'm someone in a giant vastness of space who sold their soul to Nanotrasen, was trained to live on a station on the frontier filled with risk and had their emotions and fear of death numbed by the existence of technology like cloning. Why not get some adrenaline and protect the corpo providing for me (oh, and stop a cult trying to summon a literal eldritch god) if it doesn't matter either way?

Do you think he fought the cult just to provide a cover story to the admin team, then? Like "Oh, I want to be cult, but I can't just surrender right away or I'll get banned. I'll put up a token fight first, so that way it's up in the air."?

[Fikou]

Do you think he fought the cult just to provide a cover story to the admin team, then? Like "Oh, I want to be cult, but I can't just surrender right away or I'll get banned. I'll put up a token fight first, so that way it's up in the air."?

I'm not sure- This is why I'd rather they not put wrong info in their appeal to remove all uncertainty.

[Imitates-The-Lizards]

Do you think he fought the cult just to provide a cover story to the admin team, then? Like "Oh, I want to be cult, but I can't just surrender right away or I'll get banned. I'll put up a token fight first, so that way it's up in the air."?

I'm not sure- This is why I'd rather they not put wrong info in their appeal to remove all uncertainty.

Okay. That's fair.

[conrad]

This is such an ungodly level of skill issue it smells way too bad.

With the logs, I'm torn. On one side it would've been an antag ban if there wasn't a suspicion of just playing bad. They're not a new player and are supposed to know better. On the other, maybe there actually was a story there? 'cos from what the logs say they were circling around the cult base like a fly around shit and doing nothing productive rather than bait.

[kayozz]

20 seconds not doing anything before surrendering randomly.

So that'd be what? Two minutes on Manuel or what?

[kayozz]

This is such an ungodly level of skill issue it smells way too bad.

With the logs, I'm torn. On one side it would've been an antag ban if there wasn't a suspicion of just playing bad. They're not a new player and are supposed to know better. On the other, maybe there actually was a story there? 'cos from what the logs say they were circling around the cult base like a fly around shit and doing nothing productive rather than bait.

There's the slight chance said player doesn't know how to play or hasn't played cult. A bunch of people arrive with dripping scythes. Submit or die. Die means sharded or some fuckery. Submit means RD gets a new life as whatever the fuck is going on.
Submits.
*** Permabanned ***

RIP integrity and discretion of any degree of rp level on LRP server.

[TheBibleMelts]

i don't like that the precedent cited for this note had very little to do beyond the face value wording of it, as opposed to the spirit of why the ruling was made.

i don't like that the player was gibbed.

i don't like the message this sends to people who might prefer to roleplay out a surrender in future instances of something like this playing out.

[TheBibleMelts]

but i still don't entirely disagree with leaving a note as precedent for this sort of thing possibly becoming a pattern for somebody, worded to include more context of the situation.

yeah i'm doubleposting, what are you going to do about it.

[dendydoom]

i thought i had a cold but i actually have covid so my brain is sizzling in a frying pan rn and i'm not the most lucid i've ever been so i just wanna say i get that people are pissed at what they perceive as unfair treatment but calling for admins to be deadminned or demoted or whatever over a shonky call will just make the culture worse. regardless of what the outcome of this is, enforcing a culture where admins must make 100% the correct calls at all times or get sent back down to the mines or even worse booted off the team entirely will just make everyone stand their ground even more fiercely. we should be aiming to have productive discussion to find the truth of the matter and ensure that we navigate to a satisfying conclusion that is good for the game and its community, not sharpen our pitchforks and put their estate to the torch. just like ppl think the player should be able to throw up their hands and say "woops i surrender, i fucked up" the same should be done for admins who just made a weird ruling in a video game.

that being said i still gotta say my post was for my own line of reasoning in a vacuum for an imaginary similar scenario without having pored over the logs and interviewed the culprits. i am too sick to do that please feel sorry for me...

[conrad]

This is such an ungodly level of skill issue it smells way too bad.

With the logs, I'm torn. On one side it would've been an antag ban if there wasn't a suspicion of just playing bad. They're not a new player and are supposed to know better. On the other, maybe there actually was a story there? 'cos from what the logs say they were circling around the cult base like a fly around shit and doing nothing productive rather than bait.

There's the slight chance said player doesn't know how to play or hasn't played cult. A bunch of people arrive with dripping scythes. Submit or die. Die means sharded or some fuckery. Submit means RD gets a new life as whatever the fuck is going on.
Submits.
*** Permabanned ***

RIP integrity and discretion of any degree of rp level on LRP server.

I am the number one paraolympic soapboxing gold medalist of "The hours don't matter" and even I feel like "2000 hours" is not compatible with "not knowing now to play"

[conrad]

but i still don't entirely disagree with leaving a note as precedent for this sort of thing possibly becoming a pattern for somebody, worded to include more context of the situation.

yeah i'm doubleposting, what are you going to do about it.

I'll doublepost responding to you. Nerd.

[Fikou]

*** Permabanned ***

it's a note calm down

i don't like that the precedent cited for this note had very little to do beyond the face value wording of it, as opposed to the spirit of why the ruling was made.

i don't like that the player was gibbed.

i don't like the message this sends to people who might prefer to roleplay out a surrender in future instances of something like this playing out.

yeah

[GPeckman]

but i still don't entirely disagree with leaving a note as precedent for this sort of thing possibly becoming a pattern for somebody, worded to include more context of the situation.

yeah i'm doubleposting, what are you going to do about it.

The "it's just a note in case this becomes a pattern" argument would be a lot stronger if not for the gibbing. The gibbing sends a very different and very unambiguous message about this whole situation.

[conrad]

but i still don't entirely disagree with leaving a note as precedent for this sort of thing possibly becoming a pattern for somebody, worded to include more context of the situation.

yeah i'm doubleposting, what are you going to do about it.

The "it's just a note in case this becomes a pattern" argument would be a lot stronger if not for the gibbing. The gibbing sends a very different and very unambiguous message about this whole situation.

What message is that?

[GPeckman]

but i still don't entirely disagree with leaving a note as precedent for this sort of thing possibly becoming a pattern for somebody, worded to include more context of the situation.

yeah i'm doubleposting, what are you going to do about it.

The "it's just a note in case this becomes a pattern" argument would be a lot stronger if not for the gibbing. The gibbing sends a very different and very unambiguous message about this whole situation.

What message is that?

Something like "you did something wrong, I'm gibbing you as punishment." Which is completely at odds with the whole "this note is just being placed in case you toe the line with willing conversion in the future."

You can argue that a note isn't really a punishment, but it's far harder to argue the same for the gibbing.

Edit: To illustrate my point, here's a quote from the recent Empress Maia ban appeal:

i'd even knotted your shoes when you ignored this warning PM, which marked my third attempt to try and get you to back off before spoiling this for everybody.

Code: Select all

[2023-09-15 22:31:06.617] GAME-COMPAT: ADMIN: TheBibleMelts/(Roach) punished EmpressMaia/(Chris Mclean) with Knot Shoes.

after untying your shoes, during which time you were alone and in a maintenance hallway with nobody aggressing you, you sought out and continued the conflict.

We're clearly supposed to interpret even something as minor as a knotted shoelaces smite as an admin saying "hey, knock it off." If that's the message something that minor is supposed to send, what kind of message do you think a gib smite is sending?

[Kendrickorium]

then run (or dont pretend to be korol konets for 5 minutes in a gamer zone to then back away)

"dumb stuff i wrote"

[Kendrickorium]

then run (or dont pretend to be korol konets for 5 minutes in a gamer zone to then back away)

more dumb stuff i wrote

okay i just looked it up and this guy has fucking 4000 instances.

yeah, i would probably go by the logs and that he was dicking round waiting to be converted

[Timonk]

Why are we arguing about how a character should act when every character is unique

[iwishforducks]

post them sir

So, here's the appealer's portrayal

I, the research director, was taking part in a raid on the ritual site of the cult. We were seemingly winning, and I along with a mediborg stayed to get a deepcrit cultist to brig for deconversion. Suddenly, a wraith rushes out of captain's office (where the ritual was taking place) and hurt as I am I get put into crit. When I get up, I am surrounded by a strike squad of fully armed and armored cultists and constructs, and as I see absolutely no chance of survival otherwise, I surrender. The cultists prepare an offering circle beneath me, and as it flashes red I am instantly gibbed by Thunder

When looking at the logs, you see this

Spoiler:

[2023-09-17 15:12:18.184] ATTACK: Maxipat/(Shade of Mei Fumiwara) attacked Annihilite/(Hans Heisenberg) (NEWHP: 100) (Command Hallway (104,126,2))
[2023-09-17 15:12:31.937] ATTACK: Crayno/(Nyla Harrow) shot Annihilite/(Hans Heisenberg) with the laser (NEWHP: 91) (Command Hallway (117,126,2))
[2023-09-17 15:12:39.307] ATTACK: MiniMeatwad/(Rebecca Gettemy) used a cult spell on Annihilite/(Hans Heisenberg) with Stun (NEWHP: 66) (Command Hallway (119,127,2))
[2023-09-17 15:12:44.240] ATTACK: MiniMeatwad/(Rebecca Gettemy) attacked Annihilite/(Hans Heisenberg) with eldritch longsword (COMBAT MODE: 0) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 36) (Captain's Quarters (117,128,2))
[2023-09-17 15:12:57.748] ATTACK: Crayno/(Nyla Harrow) stun attacked Annihilite/(Hans Heisenberg) with the stun baton (NEWHP: 36) (Captain's Quarters (117,128,2))
[2023-09-17 15:12:57.752] ATTACK: Crayno/(Nyla Harrow) attacked Annihilite/(Hans Heisenberg) with stun baton (COMBAT MODE: 0) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 26) (Captain's Quarters (117,128,2))

So, for a minute they generally get wailed on by cult, and fall to 26 hp, then being healed by a borg. They never fell into crit.

[2023-09-17 15:13:32.615] ATTACK: Psyduckxoxo/(P.A.L. 9000) transferred reagents (/datum/reagent/medicine/c2/libital (5u, 0.75 purity)) from to Annihilite/(Hans Heisenberg) (NEWHP: 26) (Bridge (113,129,2))
More healing logs...
[2023-09-17 15:13:36.367] ATTACK: Annihilite/(Hans Heisenberg) temp shocked for 30 seconds [Captain's Quarters] (Bridge (114,129,2))
[2023-09-17 15:13:36.391] ATTACK: [Captain's Quarters] electrocuted Annihilite/(Hans Heisenberg) (NEWHP: 6.9) (Captain's Quarters (115,130,2))
More healing logs...

They shock themselves on Captain's door. Still not in crit.
After this, there is another scuffle with cultists

[2023-09-17 15:13:57.313] ATTACK: Tqkres/(Firar Baba) stun attacked Annihilite/(Hans Heisenberg) with the telescopic baton (NEWHP: 37.9) (Captain's Quarters (115,130,2))
(Notice the 37 health from the heals)
Ton of logs about the borg flashing people...
[2023-09-17 15:14:47.107] ATTACK: Annihilite/(Hans Heisenberg) stun attacked LoonLaer/(Ivan Pavlovich) with the telescopic baton (NEWHP: -10.1) (Gateway (116,124,2))
[2023-09-17 15:14:47.987] ATTACK: Annihilite/(Hans Heisenberg) attacked LoonLaer/(Ivan Pavlovich) with telescopic baton (COMBAT MODE: 1) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: -15.1) (Gateway (116,124,2))
Cuff, strip and attack logs of this guy, up to
[2023-09-17 15:16:30.102] ATTACK: Annihilite/(Hans Heisenberg) has stripped LoonLaer/(Ivan Pavlovich) of the breath mask. (Command Hallway (114,127,2))

You have now spent 3 minutes dicking around in the cult infested command area, all of this time you can run away.

[2023-09-17 15:16:35.265] ATTACK: SirNooben/(Wraith (829)) attacked Annihilite/(Hans Heisenberg) (NEWHP: 100) (Command Hallway (104,127,2))

Here is the wraith referred to in the appeal. The RD is now at 100% health from the borg's healing.

[2023-09-17 15:16:36.079] ATTACK: Annihilite/(Hans Heisenberg) grabbed LoonLaer/(Ivan Pavlovich) aggressive grab (NEWHP: -79.7) (Command Hallway (101,127,2))
[2023-09-17 15:16:36.127] ATTACK: SirNooben/(Wraith (829)) attacked Annihilite/(Hans Heisenberg) (NEWHP: 85) (Command Hallway (102,127,2))
[2023-09-17 15:16:36.962] ATTACK: Annihilite/(Hans Heisenberg) thrown LoonLaer/(Ivan Pavlovich) grab from tile in Command Hallway (99,127,2) towards tile at Command Hallway (103,126,2) (NEWHP: -79.7) (Command Hallway (99,127,2))
[2023-09-17 15:16:36.964] ATTACK: Annihilite/(Hans Heisenberg) has thrown Ivan Pavlovich (Command Hallway (99,127,2))
[2023-09-17 15:16:37.360] ATTACK: SirNooben/(Wraith (829)) attacked Annihilite/(Hans Heisenberg) (NEWHP: 70) (Command Hallway (98,127,2))
[2023-09-17 15:16:41.710] ATTACK: SirNooben/(Wraith (829)) attacked Annihilite/(Hans Heisenberg) (NEWHP: 55) (Command Hallway (111,127,2))

At this point, the wraith starts a fight with the borg and stops caring about the RD for a while. The RD has never entered crit like he claims. As far as I see they could have ran away while the borg scuffle happened. I don't see any logs of anything that would knock them out either.
Then, 20 seconds later...

[2023-09-17 15:17:03.521] GAME-SAY: Annihilite/(Hans Heisenberg) "i surrender" (Command Hallway (120,126,2))
[2023-09-17 15:17:04.054] ATTACK: SirNooben/(Wraith (829)) attacked Annihilite/(Hans Heisenberg) (NEWHP: 35) (Command Hallway (120,127,2))
[2023-09-17 15:17:06.701] GAME-EMOTE: Annihilite/(Hans Heisenberg) puts his hands on his head and falls to the ground, he surrenders! (Command Hallway (120,126,2))

The RD surrenders and 30 seconds later gets converted

I think that as the RD that hangs around in the cult infested area for 5 minutes for the purpose of fucking with cultists you don't have the excuse of fear RP to surrender instead of trying to run away.

btw it appears logs are broken and record health BEFORE they deal damage because why the fuck did he get hammered by a wraith and have a newhp of 100

[Constellado]

I really dont think the logs are lying, especially after the observation that the combat logs's health doesnt seem to match up.

I really don't like this note. If I got surrounded and I had no other option, I would surrender as well.
I do not think he intentially lied about not being put in crit, either. Maybe something else happened that knocked him down?

Wait, he mentions a ritual site.
The cult was already in the final stages. If he really did want to get converted, he would have done that aages ago.

Lets see where this appeal goes.

[kieth4]

Admin just set the note to expire in 3 months and we're all happy

[datorangebottle]

Admin just set the note to expire in 3 months and we're all happy

Not really, no. It's still factually incorrect and harsh.

[kieth4]

Admin just set the note to expire in 3 months and we're all happy

Not really, no. It's still factually incorrect and harsh.

Let me teach you about the art of the deal kiddo, also known as compromise.

Do I agree with this note/admins actions? Nope.

However, there is value in realising hey, this appeal has some issues that may make it hard for the headmins to just go noob note lift.

So then you look for the next best thing- an expiring note for 3 months in these circumstances works. It gets the issue across (whilst kinda going it's a grey area so just don't do it again like this.) But as it was such a grey area it vanishes in 3 months so the appealer just needs to make new habits in that period really.

Your goal should be to resolve this whilst factoring in all issues. Was the appeal slightly problematic? Yes. Fikou has expressed that this raises doubts for him so then you go alright- TBM kinda doesn't like this what could they potentially agree on? And then you come to your conclusion.

Being set in your ways is a surefire way to end up with nobody happy, and our goal is to get the best outcome for the player.

[conrad]

Kieth4 essayposting while punching himself in the stomach trying to knock the GM inside him unconscious.

[Timberpoes]

A lesson I learned during my time as an admin is that some bans or notes end up being pointless because to include the full context and nuance is almost like the thing negating its own purpose.

It looks - and I haven't read the logs but I have listened to other people that have - like the player put in some effort to roleplay and an overly strict interpretation of certain rules led to them being punished for this due to [reasons].

But the message being sent here isn't [don't do a thing]. It's don't roleplay. Don't use your words. Fight to the death no matter what because the rules demand it.

When the message seems counter to the purpose of the game - roleplay fun, perhaps we might consider reversing it. We should be sending a louder message that roleplay is king and we should never let the rules get in the way of a good story on any server.

Because this is ultimately what makes our game so damn unique.

[conrad]

So the secret to willingly getting converted is to hit *surrender 'cos that's RP and you can't get banned if you did RP.

[Dax Dupont]

So the secret to willingly getting converted is to hit *surrender 'cos that's RP and you can't get banned if you did RP.

Sure, if you want to strip out all the nuance.
Now the following isn't necessarily specific to this but:
We're not supposed to always enforce the rules to the letter, we have to make our own judgements on what is good for the game and the community and what isn't.
The game needs to be fun, not just a bunch of mechanics and a meat grinder that burns out it's players and stifles creativity like it's like it's some facsimile of Terry Gilliam's Brasil.
This does mean it's sometimes inconsistent but with a game like ss13 you can't really codify every single scenario. However, that's why we have the appeal system.

This specific case, I don't know. It feels genuine, and it's hard to place yourself into the mindset of others. It's not just what's in the logs but how hopeless you feel as a player in that situation. Everyone reacts differently to different input.

Honestly I would've given the player the benefit of the doubt since it seems at least plausible and it has little impact on the round or players. Even the gibbing seems off for it.

[CMDR_Gungnir]

So the secret to willingly getting converted is to hit *surrender 'cos that's RP and you can't get banned if you did RP.

I don't think such a reductionist approach is necessarily helpful.

When Cults happen, it tends to be an "All hands on deck" thing. Everyone groups up with the people they know aren't cultist fucks and goes to fight. And that's what he did. From my memory (I read the Logs and Appeal once a while ago) they cleared out the base. Everyone's like "oh he just kinda stuck around doing nothing" but I don't think that's necessarily wrong. If someone comes back to the base, it's probably alone, then he can kill them too. And what are the chances that they're going to come back en masse?

But then a Wraith shows up. Something unexpected, and he ends up injured. Then he sees himself at massive damage slowdown, and two hits away from crit. And there are Multiple Cultists (If my memory of the Appeal Thread is correct, but even if there aren't, it's reasonable.)

His options are fight and die like a dog, or surrender like a coward and live. In that case, hitting that *surrender verb is reasonable.

I don't think anyone's saying that the rule is bad and we should be letting people willingly get converted. Just that this doesn't seem like one of those cases.

[conrad]

Saying that he RP'd when the entirety of RP that happened was circulating the cultist base for 5 minutes, getting in a fight and surrending is, by itself, reductionist, and wilfully ignoring the logs. There isn't any nuance unless you start to conjecture intention when there's evidence of how they behaved.

In other words, you're spinning yarn from a single cottonball.

Seriously read the logs. People asked for it, Fikou shared them and now y'all ignoring it.

[kieth4]

Mechanical rp is as valid as like, typing 800000 words.

His actions in fighting and running away offer contribution to the story too.

[TheLoLSwat]

even if this guy didnt mind joining the cult OOCly, he still provided conflict and surrendered after not dying in a way that doesnt really break immersion. The cult also was winning at this point i think. Live and let live.

[conrad]

Mechanical rp is as valid as like, typing 800000 words.

His actions in fighting and running away offer contribution to the story too.

Yeah, this what I mean.

Say "i surrender", *surrender and you're free of willing conversion bans.

[Not-Dorsidarf]

Conrad you're acting like one of those players who respond to rulings against them that "SO THAT MEANS I CAN [x] when [Y] huh??? IM GONNA GO DO THAT AND TELL THE ADMIN YOU SAID SO"

[conrad]

Conrad you're acting like one of those players who respond to rulings against them that "SO THAT MEANS I CAN [x] when [Y] huh??? IM GONNA GO DO THAT AND TELL THE ADMIN YOU SAID SO"

If you think that's what I mean by what I said I don't think we can be friends. I'm taking what's being said at face value. My opinion on this is that it warrants a note and not an antag ban for the sole purpose that there isn't 100% certainty that they were in fact being willingly converted.

[iwishforducks]

roleplay is when man say word. it become even more roleplay when msn say more word

[Not-Dorsidarf]

Conrad you're acting like one of those players who respond to rulings against them that "SO THAT MEANS I CAN [x] when [Y] huh??? IM GONNA GO DO THAT AND TELL THE ADMIN YOU SAID SO"

If you think that's what I mean by what I said I don't think we can be friends.

[Archie700]

Can we not start an argument over what the logs say when it could be interpreted either way by both sides

[Timberpoes]

I feel at some point the forest got lost behind all these trees in this thread.

The rules are merely a vessel to maximise the opportunities for SS13 moments and SS13 stories within a given RP level. They are not the be-all and end-all, and if taken too literally or applied too rigidly they can very rapidly degrade roleplay by causing a focus on gameplay and mechanics over roleplay and stories.

I always strongly resist when this happens. My RP rule rewrite focused on roleplay and stories. My silipol rewrite focused on the freedom to create more and more interesting or varied stories and allow AIs to express themselves for more SS13 moments. Roleplay is the beating heart of SS13. Stories and moments are the soul. I dislike when the rules are applied to restrict these opportunities too hard.

Headmins also have peanut exemptions in appeals precisely to allow them to post logs, challenge the player and attempt to ascertain both the objective truth as they logs say, and the subjective truth as the player believed or understood it. They can then more accurately assess how plausible the player's subjective take is.

So I'd suggest Fikou or one of the other headmins that cares post the previously mentioned logs and associated commentary in the appeal. They serve little practical purpose being buried in the peanut except to peanut on them. Which isn't the best way to get an objectively sound outcome.

Worst case scenario the player doesn't give enough of a shit to respond to it and then you can basically go "whelp, we tried!" and go from there on the assumption they didn't respond because they had no reasonable explanation for the highlighted issues.

[Timberpoes]

Doublepost as a reminder that the logs only give half the story. They lack crucial context, nuance and explanation. It's why admin investigations place an emphasis on talking to people. Players' words give their logs meaning.

Put the two together to get a full story.

I'm not headmin anymore so I no longer have to do this. I can instead throw all the peanuts I spent 6 months collecting.

And my horse is super high. So I can throw them really far and they really sting if they hit. Leave a right mark.

Also my horse is stood on the tip of the top of the ivory tower.

[dendydoom]

my primary concern is the takeaway that happens when these sorts of rulings are made. maybe through the logs a good argument can be made for the conversion being misrepresented in the appeal, maybe the player has a history of bad faith play around willing conversions, who knows? i sure don't. but when players see this they will assume that nuance of this nature around conversion antags isn't allowed and that there is only 1 acceptable course of action with only 1 acceptable outcome to the situation because that's how they see it being enforced.

to me that's not a good fit for the game. like timber said, if there is tangible evidence to address the reasoning behind this note, then i hope it appears in the appeal thread itself. otherwise people will just assume the most basic interpretation, which is that in every situation they must fight or die against cultists, otherwise they will be punished by admins.

even on manuel people will group up to fight a cult or revs because they are a stationwide threat. to me antagonists are supposed to be the catalyst for the story of a round. if we cannot roleplay with them and have these story driven moments with them that make way for nuance and special cases, then why even have them? it truly just turns the round into a rigidly codified team deathmatch, which is a story that's entertaining a handful of times before you're sick to the back teeth of seeing it.

[Jacquerel]

if you read the logs the evidence is damning

[datorangebottle]

Admin just set the note to expire in 3 months and we're all happy

Not really, no. It's still factually incorrect and harsh.

Let me teach you about the art of the deal kiddo, also known as compromise.

Do I agree with this note/admins actions? Nope.

However, there is value in realising hey, this appeal has some issues that may make it hard for the headmins to just go noob note lift.

So then you look for the next best thing- an expiring note for 3 months in these circumstances works. It gets the issue across (whilst kinda going it's a grey area so just don't do it again like this.) But as it was such a grey area it vanishes in 3 months so the appealer just needs to make new habits in that period really.

Your goal should be to resolve this whilst factoring in all issues. Was the appeal slightly problematic? Yes. Fikou has expressed that this raises doubts for him so then you go alright- TBM kinda doesn't like this what could they potentially agree on? And then you come to your conclusion.

Being set in your ways is a surefire way to end up with nobody happy, and our goal is to get the best outcome for the player.

It took me a while to respond because I wanted to get some sleep beforehand, to make sure this post wasn't some weird thing I imagined. This is perhaps the weirdest take I've seen in a peanut thread, and it's combined with an obnoxiously condescending tone.
A compromise here would set an extremely worrying precedent- that this is a valid enforcement of the rules. That admins are allowed to action people for surrendering mid-fight to a conversion antag.
A compromise here also leaves a player punished who shouldn't have been, and that compromise still leaves in a risk of another admin using a wrongly placed, badly worded note against them.
A weak, lukewarm compromise is only going to make the banning admin happy, because they don't have to spend time and effort on it anymore.

[kieth4]

Admin just set the note to expire in 3 months and we're all happy

Not really, no. It's still factually incorrect and harsh.

Let me teach you about the art of the deal kiddo, also known as compromise.

Do I agree with this note/admins actions? Nope.

However, there is value in realising hey, this appeal has some issues that may make it hard for the headmins to just go noob note lift.

So then you look for the next best thing- an expiring note for 3 months in these circumstances works. It gets the issue across (whilst kinda going it's a grey area so just don't do it again like this.) But as it was such a grey area it vanishes in 3 months so the appealer just needs to make new habits in that period really.

Your goal should be to resolve this whilst factoring in all issues. Was the appeal slightly problematic? Yes. Fikou has expressed that this raises doubts for him so then you go alright- TBM kinda doesn't like this what could they potentially agree on? And then you come to your conclusion.

Being set in your ways is a surefire way to end up with nobody happy, and our goal is to get the best outcome for the player.

It took me a while to respond because I wanted to get some sleep beforehand, to make sure this post wasn't some weird thing I imagined. This is perhaps the weirdest take I've seen in a peanut thread, and it's combined with an obnoxiously condescending tone.
A compromise here would set an extremely worrying precedent- that this is a valid enforcement of the rules. That admins are allowed to action people for surrendering mid-fight to a conversion antag.
A compromise here also leaves a player punished who shouldn't have been, and that compromise still leaves in a risk of another admin using a wrongly placed, badly worded note against them.
A weak, lukewarm compromise is only going to make the banning admin happy, because they don't have to spend time and effort on it anymore.

If you don't want to compromise you're not going to get anywhere bro idk what else to say. There is very clearly enough doubt to go this isn't shrimply a clear cut case. So you've gotta work around it to get the best result.

I am very against this note but I also respect that the appeal + logs are enough for some people to be suspect.

which is cool but then I feel like you've gotta find the next best solution right