Jacquerel wrote: ↑Fri Oct 06, 2023 2:02 pm
There is no crew win condition and hasn't been since we removed "the round ends as soon as a wizard dies" (which we removed because it sucks). Even if every antagonist loses (and even in scenario here the game congratulates the crew for outsmarting a team of cultists or operatives), the game ends with the crew abandoning their post anyway, not in victory.
That doesn't make you "playthings" because everyone enters the game already knowing that this is a crisis simulator and that is the basic gameplay framing.
The crew don't and
can't win, they just survive for a while. That has been the game everyone has played for over a decade, including you.
Any scenario where the game ends because the crew whips around and says "uhhh we're all bored and want to start over how about we all RP just quitting our jobs for no reason" is a failure of the game design (or admins not making something happen). Preferably it happens because of the act of someone who is playing the game.
The point is that there is a difference between "The Crew lives on a crisis station, and their endgoal is simply to Survive the threats that happen around them" is different than "The entire point of playing Crew is that you are going to lose". They're similar, certainly, the former does acknowledge the latter, but it frames it differently. The former gives the Crew agency, and treats them like a part of the story, the latter just says "Your job is to fall over and die so that John Traitor can get a new gun" and treats them like plot devices at best.
I also don't agree that the "Me bored, shuttle call?" is inherently a failure of game design. Certainly, it can be. But not always. It's good to have quieter rounds, too. Rounds where the crew faced opposition and threats, but managed to survive make those rounds where they get their shit pushed in extra hard have extra oomph. It gives them meaning and it makes them have impact. They're much more exciting and interesting when it's not an Every Round thing. Much like "Me bored, shuttle call?" shouldn't be every round.
And it's also MUCH better if those happen because of what the traitors are doing, and not because the game just says "ok its time". What's the more interesting scenario? "The station is in massive disrepair and large swathes of the crew are dead. The shuttle is called, and what few battered and broken survivors are left limp aboard and survive to see another day." vs "Things were relatively quiet. All of a sudden a Battlecruiser arrived. Everyone died."
Final Objectives aren't a healthy way to handle it. At worst, they inspire tots to be literally "People thought this was a greenshift" levels of stealthy so that they can safely get their Final Obj and win, and at best they...do something the tots could have done anyway (end the round).
Their very existence ruins Sec's ability to RP. In the past, I loved releasing antags because it was more fun for everyone. They got more time to do Antag Things, and Sec had more things they could actually do, and it allowed the story of the round to go and continue. Now, releasing antags only makes it more fun for the antag player.
Their very existence ALSO ruins gimmicks. People in this thread have tried to argue against that, "Umm, you can still DO your gimmicks with Prog Tot" but ignoring the fact that Rep Locks On Gear Stifle That ("Martial Artist Dueling Sect Chaplain" is a fun and reliable gimmick to break out from time to time, and Scarp is Rep Locked) by forcing you to Do Things That Mark You As An Antag or Wait Out Half The Round Doing Nothing, there's also the repercussions of the above point. Security's left scratching their heads, and wondering "Is this guy just doing a gimmick, or is he going to be a round-ender?" After all, maybe that Chaplain just SEEMS like he's doing the Martial Artist Dueling Sect Chaplain gimmick, but he's actually stealthing his objectives to get his battlecruiser.
And the only, ONLY thing you've said that could vaguely justify them is "It's good for Player Actions to be why the round ends, instead of people being bored" which...y'know. Already happened before every single antag in the game was made into a round-ender.