Polcon Wars: Return of the Somepan

[ekaterina]

The next case on the docket...
Somepan v. tgstation, III
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=36420

me saying that misoginy in men's right movements is more damaging to society as a whole than misandry in women's right movements/feminism because misoginy in men's right movements seeks to reverse societal advancements done by feminism while misandry in women's right movements/feminist circles is most often directed at the historical oppression of men on women.

bruh?? These are two whole different standards you're applying to each to determine which is more damaging. You're judging the first on its effects but the second on its causes. The argument fundamentally makes no sense.

[DaBoss]

this fucking argument again jesus christ can this person not calm the fuck down

[gameaddict07]

They got kicked out of hell and are DESPERATE to claw their way back in.

[ekaterina]

They got kicked out of hell and are DESPERATE to claw their way back in.

Somepan gripped the bars and yammered "LET ME IN"...

[Omega_DarkPotato]

somepan desperately needs to learn how to be concise in their argumentation, and how to give up a pointless argument

[britgrenadier1]

This is like those “What would you do if you won a million dollars” things where the response from the winner is “One million on black and let it spin.”

[bingusdingus]

I just can't wrap my head around what they want to prove. Learn to just accept that someone has a different opinion than you do and move on. Nobody should put in this much effort to win an argument on the Internet. There is literally nothing to gain. I can only say that a ban is genuinely good for them because it is something they obviously have been obsessive over and nobody should encourage that kind of behavior. Everyone involved should just chill the fuck out and stop trying to win an argument that doesn't matter. This is a silly atmospherics simulator that people use to roleplay life on a space station, the fuck does your argument have to do with any of that. Fuck people for bringing politics into it in general.

[Jacquerel]

surely this time the stove won't hurt me

[Vekter]

I would think that the fact that you just outright do NOT get along with the man in the room with the gun would make you not want to be in the room, yet here we are

[iansdoor]

surely this time the stove won't hurt me

This game is called "is the stove hot?" and you place your hand dead on the spiral with your palm facing down.

[Timonk]

me saying that misoginy in men's right movements is more damaging to society as a whole than misandry in women's right movements/feminism because misoginy in men's right movements seeks to reverse societal advancements done by feminism while misandry in women's right movements/feminist circles is most often directed at the historical oppression of men on women.

I don't get it
You are applying different standards on the same issue because one side is male.
Misandry and Misogyny are in their very core, the same issue. Misandrists want to be in Power, while Misogynists want to do the same. Misogynists want to reverse the power roles while Misogynists want to reinforce their positions. Both of them want to reverse gender equality progress, not just Misogynists. It has no use to say one is worse than the other because of historical context, except to divide further.


For some reason, having to reread this argument every so often makes me very uncomfortable. I don't have synesthesia, but every time I read this argument, I can't help but imagine a deep, angry red. I feel like this argument comes from a place of trying to prove a point and a hate for MSO rather than a objective debate of this issue.

[Timonk]

I get why you would want to be back in polcon. I am banned from there myself. But being banned for the last 9 months helped me immensely with socializing IRL because I actually engaged with my uni discord instead of having polcon permanently opened on my second monitor.

[Omega_DarkPotato]

holy shit timonk won
this makes me very happy to hear im glad for you

[Lacran]

I love stupid arguments but polcon is beyond me

[The Wrench]

Snip

I like this take up until that last paragraph, the quote from Somepan (Amelia) is a bit misguided and kinda “x bigotry = Power +Privilege” as I’ve got no doubt in my mind some of the extreme gender critical radical misandrists would want to use the same power structures of oppression that historically have been used against women.

Amelia has her heart in the right place and so does our supreme host and benefactor.

[BONERMASTER]

national socialist

With scientific regards
-BONERMASTER

[Timonk]

holy shit timonk won
this makes me very happy to hear im glad for you

thank you.
instead, i now open polcon every hour to check for new messages.

[Constellado]

Didn't they just put an appeal about this like

Three weeks ago or something?

Keep them out of there holy shit.

[ekaterina]

Didn't they just put an appeal about this like

Three weeks ago or something?

Keep them out of there holy shit.

Early May (old news): viewtopic.php?f=34&t=36111
Late June I (first recent appeal): viewtopic.php?f=34&t=36310
Late June II (second recent appeal): viewtopic.php?f=34&t=36318
Mid July (current, third recent appeal): viewtopic.php?f=7&t=36420&p=733855#p733855

[Lacran]

Okay, somepan is a dumbass but MSO definitely comes across as a pearl clutching bozo here

[ekaterina]

Okay, somepan is a dumbass but MSO definitely comes across as a pearl clutching bozo here

Only if you look at it from a perspective by which discrimination against men has been normalised, which is the source of the issue to begin with. MSO is correct.

if you walked into a discussion in a pro-equality space about pop culture casting firefighters as male as sexist towards women and pointed to stats about what gender are firefighters you'd find yourself very quickly no longer welcomed in that discussion.

In this hypothetical scenario, excluding someone from a discussion for simply pointing to statistics, without any argument attached, sounds like hiding from the truth just because it's inconvenient.

[MrStonedOne]

Okay, somepan is a dumbass but MSO definitely comes across as a pearl clutching bozo here

I look at men and the way society treats men the way feminism does for women.

The fact you were raised to think boys and men deserved less compassion than girls and women is part of the problem, not an excuse for it.

anywho i started a tumblr, for more reading on the topic check out https://www.tumblr.com/blog/abearinthewoods

[Jacquerel]

If you think about it MSO is really doing Somepan a big favour by rehosting the polcon discussion they could be having in Discord in the polcon channel ban appeal thread instead

[ekaterina]

Somepan's new post opens up in a way that is so wrong - deranged, even - I don't even know where to begin in addressing it.

Reverting progress is not the only way to cause harm. Impeding men from correcting existing anti-male inequalities is harm in and of itself (and vice-versa).
And MRAs, a tiny group with little influence relative to the leviathan that is modern feminism, are somehow going to revert women's right to vote? Laughable.
Misandry is directed at what "men have been"? Misandry is directed at, and harmful to, men, period.

Holy fuck, it gets even worse, as she mounts a defence of anti-semitism.

Women feel unsafe around men

Gee, I wonder why. Perhaps the decades of "radical feminist" fearmongering campaigns?

This is ultimatly a ban that only exists because you disagree with me, and you're the host

He "disagrees" in the sense with which one disagrees with bigotry. Yeah, strictly speaking it is disagreement, but not between two equally valid positions, let's not pretend it is legitimate to claim misandry is not as bad as misogyny.

[Lacran]

Jesus Christ ekat please shut the fuck up

[ekaterina]

Jesus Christ ekat please shut the fuck up

You are part of the problem.

[Lacran]

The main problem is treating one issue like it's super important and hand waving another under the guise of fairness and equality. Which is what you're all doing in this argument.

There's merit to be found in both arguments, but you both argue like total fucking bozos as if sexism exists inside a vacuum but only for your specific gender.

Somepan is being a bigot and attempting to use victimhood to justify it. While you and MSO attempt to use victimhood to obfuscate victimhood.

[ekaterina]

only for your specific gender

You made assumptions about my gender that fit your narrative. How dare Ekaterina take a stance against misandry?! She must be a man!

[Lacran]

only for your specific gender

You made assumptions about my gender that fit your narrative. How dare Ekaterina take a stance against misandry?! She must be a man!

Nah, I've always assumed you were a guy. If you're a woman then mea culpa

[ekaterina]

I've always assumed you were a guy

You're not the only one and frankly it confuses me. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ekaterina

[Constellado]

This proves that you cannot guess gender based on personality online.
I learned this a while back.

A person that acts feminine can easily be a man and a person that acts masculine can easily be a lady. And I noticed it's so common that I believe there shouldn't be any gender assigned personality traits.

[Itseasytosee2me]

I've always assumed you were a guy

You're not the only one and frankly it confuses me. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ekaterina

I always saw you as some kind of genderless blob frankly

[MrStonedOne]

Its always funny to me how uncomfortable attacking misandry makes people that they feel the need to frantically reach out for some attack on the person fighting misandry as if they are drowning and its a life line for the uncomfortable feelings they are feeling.

[Itseasytosee2me]

Misandry exists where I live, and I've defilement been on the receiving end of, and one of my trans-masc friends has felt it personally too is that is surprising to anyone. However, that misandry isn't often rooted in any of the corporate and governmental systems that we have in place, and when I'm the victim of it I usually have a large bed of support to fall back on from friends and family, which is not as common as with misogyny at least where I live. I do think that both hating men and hating women should be much more stigmatized then they are now.

[Lacran]

Its always funny to me how uncomfortable attacking misandry makes people that they feel the need to frantically reach out for some attack on the person fighting misandry as if they are drowning and its a life line for the uncomfortable feelings they are feeling.

The issue isn't that you're attacking misandry, it's that you do it in an Incredibly cringe way.

Misandry is real, it is damaging, it should be combated. But holy shit do you do a terrible job at it.

You aren't making people uncomfortable because you're revealing some esoteric truth their psyche has repressed. You're making people uncomfortable because your paragraphs of stereotypical MRA talking points seem completely unnecessary to actually resolving the ban, and is more so an opportunity for you to soapbox a topic you're a self proclaimed expert on to a captive audience of the person trying to get unbanned. That's incredibly fucking lame.

Having you an ekat championing for my rights makes me fundamentally uncomfortable. I'm assuming as uncomfortable as most women feel having somepan in their corner shitting on men's issues.

[ekaterina]

You aren't making people uncomfortable because you're revealing some esoteric truth their psyche has repressed. You're making people uncomfortable because your paragraphs of stereotypical MRA talking points seem completely unnecessary to actually resolving the ban, and is more so an opportunity for you to soapbox a topic you're a self proclaimed expert on to a captive audience of the person trying to get unbanned. That's incredibly fucking lame.

Would you rather he went "even now, you're still being a bigot. this appeal is denied" and left it at that, rather than trying to get Somepan to understand, like he's doing?

[TheRex9001]

Sidenote, why are there so many retired admins in polcon?

[Lacran]

You aren't making people uncomfortable because you're revealing some esoteric truth their psyche has repressed. You're making people uncomfortable because your paragraphs of stereotypical MRA talking points seem completely unnecessary to actually resolving the ban, and is more so an opportunity for you to soapbox a topic you're a self proclaimed expert on to a captive audience of the person trying to get unbanned. That's incredibly fucking lame.

Would you rather he went "even now, you're still being a bigot. this appeal is denied" and left it at that, rather than trying to get Somepan to understand, like he's doing?

I think a long winded, very pointless rehash of the arguments that got them banned isn't going to get somepan to understand.

Somepan doesn't need to not be a bigot, somepan just needs to not express bigotry. They're not on trial for a thought crime.

[datorangebottle]

Somepan has been banned from polcon how many times now? 3?
I think at this point they've proven incapable of not expressing bigotry and should just stay gone.

[TheRex9001]

At this point Im starting to wonder why MSO is even responding with these lengthy messages, I suppose they like to argue about this subject (fair enough) but somepan has been banned from polcon (for the exact same thing) so much it honestly might just be time to not let them be in there for a good while. These appeals feel less so like appeals and more like them just writing polcon arguements.

[MrStonedOne]

the subject matter and how i view it has to do with why i view their actions as bigoted (and also as breaking of discord rules) and i'm an old school admin were it was drilled into us that we should make a good faith effort to help the appellant understand *why* they are banned so long as they are making a good faith effort in return.

it took until now for me to see enough in one appeal to think they are not making a good faith effort in return.

I honestly hoped that if they could just see the issues how i see it, they would understand why they got banned and stop doing those things. I was wrong.

[Lacran]

the subject matter and how i view it has to do with why i view their actions as bigoted (and also as breaking of discord rules) and i'm an old school admin were it was drilled into us that we should make a good faith effort to help the appellant understand *why* they are banned so long as they are making a good faith effort in return.

it took until now for me to see enough in one appeal to think they are not making a good faith effort in return.

I honestly hoped that if they could just see the issues how i see it, they would understand why they got banned and stop doing those things. I was wrong.

No, I think it was more this issue personally resonated with you and you used the appeal as a personal outlet for it.

I don't think you dealt with the appeal professionally, or even effectively.

Your goal was to get this person to validate your position, it wasn't to get this person compliant with the rules. If it was then 90% of the points you were raising were totally irrelevant.

I can understand the argument that if this person saw things how you did, they wouldn't express bigotry. That's a terrible philosophy to be applying in practice if you actually take a second to look at somepans history and what they were saying, which I don't think you prioritised over your own soapboxxing.

[ekaterina]

Your goal was to get this person to validate your position, it wasn't to get this person compliant with the rules.

Would the first not achieve the second, even if it is not the only way to do so?

I think it was more this issue personally resonated with you and you used the appeal as a personal outlet for it.

He said many things that needed to be said about Somepan's bigotry, and they are now public and visible to all. This is good.
Judicial processes are, in part, a show. MSO demonstrates to onlookers what is OK and what isn't by delving into detail as he did.
I don't get why you're seemingly upset that he exceeded the bare minimum that would be needed to address the specific facts of the case.

[Lacran]

Your goal was to get this person to validate your position, it wasn't to get this person compliant with the rules.

Would the first not achieve the second, even if it is not the only way to do so?

Yeah, getting someone who fundamentally and consistently disagrees with you, to agree with you, would hypothetically stop them from breaking that rule.

I'm sure there's rules here ekat that you personally disagree with. Do you think banning you and then trying to get you to agree that those rules are good is an effective to make you compliant? Vs just getting you to acknowledge compliance isn't optional and something you need to agree to do regardless of your own biases.

It's self absorbed to try to get people to think how you think as a prerequisite for re-entry. Acquiescence is really all that is required, and if that's unlikely, then reject the appeal.

This wasn't the somepan show, this was the MSO show.

[ekaterina]

I'm sure there's rules here ekat that you personally disagree with. Do you think banning you and then trying to get you to agree that those rules are good is an effective to make you compliant?

If the attempt at persuasion actually persuades me, yes. Otherwise, obviously no.

Acquiescence is really all that is required

Which Somepan hasn't done. She continued to espouse misandry.

[Jacquerel]

I don't think you dealt with the appeal professionally, or even effectively.

I agree only in that it was folly to drag this on across three or four topics when the first one should probably have sufficed to know there wasn't going to be any particular change in outcome
what's even the point of entertaining unbanning somepan when she'll get re-banned within a week?

[Lacran]

I think you are reading like half of what I actually say, scanning for a possible gotcha, before you read anything else.

If MSO thought somepan would be receptive to this approach, that's a fundamental failure of judgement.

If MSO thought somepan would be receptive to their style an scope of argumentation, that's a fundamental failure of judgement.

So either, MSO who's done adminning for a long time, forgot the basics of adminning like player history, player bias and general player attitude in how they chose their approach to this appeal, or they just ignored those in favour of what they wanted to do. Which was argue about MRA, something they are clearly emotionally invested in.

Like I can understand the justifications for trying to convince a person, but to think it would be a good idea here would basically require you to have no ability to evaluate a person and their perspective, or simply no desire to.

[Itseasytosee2me]

I believe them when they both say they are genuinely trying to sway eachothers minds. Seems they are both quite passionate about things. Perhaps this is one of those rivals to friendship archs I hear so much about?

[Blacklist897]

Still a better a polcon argument then goofball and israel

[ekaterina]

Somepan has been graced with a HEADMIN REVIEW.