/tg/Station 13

Bottom post of the previous page:

oranges wrote: ↑Mon May 01, 2023 12:08 am

BlueMemesauce wrote: ↑Sun Apr 30, 2023 11:24 pm He wrote all of that just to give like a single actual argument. I already said this earlier in this thread, that is not enough of an argument to remove kilo specifically.

Clearly reality disagrees with you

Kendrickorium wrote: ↑Mon May 01, 2023 12:39 am is there some kind of limit on maps we can have in rotation? why not just add birdshot in?

san7890 wrote: ↑Sun Apr 30, 2023 11:54 pm

sinfulbliss wrote: ↑Sun Apr 30, 2023 11:46 pm

san7890 wrote: ↑Sun Apr 30, 2023 9:27 pm

datorangebottle wrote: ↑Sun Apr 30, 2023 8:41 pm I'm current running off of the (pretty logical, imo) assumption that if I try to make changes to the map that conflict with its core design(being a barely functional derelict) they'll just get stopped. I'd rather not waste my time and effort on that.

i hope you understand that if you can prove that the core design is non-functional (probably after a few months) and demonstrate a better solution that it can be pre-empted.

this is such an insanely tedious ask of someone who doesn’t even know how to map to begin with. map changes and “prove” them over several months? how do you even prove something to be “nonfunctional”? it’s not like things are just nonworking, it’s more like the design just lends itself to them breaking often or creating unpleasant game experiences for various reasons (atmos, powergrid, etc), and suggesting a random player make a PR to change the design (if they could even do that to begin with) is completely impractical

this entire game is random players with zero experience (other than general knowledge of how code works, artistic skills - nothing really specific to DM though) trying to make a difference, as such i do not understand your point what-so-ever. they actually realized they cared about something rather than rant about it in peanuts or whatever. it is not impractical or tedious at all because that is how literally everyone who contributes has started or will invariably end up. things will only happen of your volition if you choose to make it happen, that is the universal constant. otherwise you are left in the dust.

PR justification is not some esoteric art either, you just need to show that you have thought about it or understand the game to a point where you understand that something is intuitively wrong and convince a maintainer (and more importantly: everyone else) that you're in the right. if they don't agree they're required to explain why. if your PR gets closed: you can try another way of balancing it, figure out a better way of proving your point to someone else in the future, or just move on with your life. play bloons or scroll twitter or something if you really can't tolerate a map man. the reason why i say "demonstrate impracticality" is because you are expected to defend your PR in some way, and if you start off strong, you'll end up strong. you can read more on this here https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/ ... st-process and here https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/ ... ur-changes

EDIT: I stumbled across this while reading older replies in coding general:





This was a while ago, but this is someone who I have never heard of putting in the time over something they care about and formatting their data to illustrate a point as to why they didn't agree with a PR. people care a lot about these things and are willing to go through tedium to prove a point.

san7890 wrote: ↑Sun Apr 30, 2023 9:27 pm

datorangebottle wrote: ↑Sun Apr 30, 2023 8:41 pm I'm current running off of the (pretty logical, imo) assumption that if I try to make changes to the map that conflict with its core design(being a barely functional derelict) they'll just get stopped. I'd rather not waste my time and effort on that.

i hope you understand that if you can prove that the core design is non-functional (probably after a few months) and demonstrate a better solution that it can be pre-empted. this is an open-source project and people do not retain final authority forever (their opinions will be held into account of course), but if a failing is demonstrated and acted upon i don't see why it should not be merged.

i.e.: northstar not having ruins by design is okay because ruins aren't a core function of the game (and should be de-emphasized). however not having features that you need to complete core functions of the base game in a map can be demonstrated to be a failing and should be acted upon.

Kendrickorium wrote: ↑Mon May 01, 2023 12:39 am is there some kind of limit on maps we can have in rotation? why not just add birdshot in?

Armhulen wrote: ↑Mon May 01, 2023 1:51 am

Kendrickorium wrote: ↑Mon May 01, 2023 12:39 am is there some kind of limit on maps we can have in rotation? why not just add birdshot in?

We do have a maximum amount of maps we can have in rotation because we have to maintain each map in rotation

Kendrickorium wrote: ↑Mon May 01, 2023 12:40 am

oranges wrote: ↑Mon May 01, 2023 12:08 am

BlueMemesauce wrote: ↑Sun Apr 30, 2023 11:24 pm He wrote all of that just to give like a single actual argument. I already said this earlier in this thread, that is not enough of an argument to remove kilo specifically.

Clearly reality disagrees with you

no, his statement doesnt fit your reality, so clearly it's wrong, amirite?

TheFinalPotato wrote: ↑Mon May 01, 2023 2:34 am brother that sentence doesn't make any sense, are you talking about removing maps when they fall behind some versioning system, and then readding them when they're past it again?

RedBaronFlyer wrote: ↑Mon May 01, 2023 7:01 am I feel like one of the few people that absolutely hate multi-z level stuff since it just makes makes maps more tedious to navigate, splits up the playerbase, and constantly leads to shit like on icebox where the blob 95% of the time sets up at atmos/lower science and takes out all the stairs.

Archie700 wrote: ↑Mon May 01, 2023 6:47 am The mapper who used to maintain it is working on a multi-Z version of this anyway.

RedBaronFlyer wrote: ↑Mon May 01, 2023 7:01 am I feel like one of the few people that absolutely hate multi-z level stuff since it just makes makes maps more tedious to navigate, splits up the playerbase, and constantly leads to shit like on icebox where the blob 95% of the time sets up at atmos/lower science and takes out all the stairs.

sinfulbliss wrote: ↑Mon May 01, 2023 8:16 am

Archie700 wrote: ↑Mon May 01, 2023 6:47 am The mapper who used to maintain it is working on a multi-Z version of this anyway.

wait really? what happens when it's done then?

is there a possible world where we have like.. meta/delta/kilo/birdshot/northstar/tram? that would be kind of hilarious

kawoppi wrote: ↑Sun Apr 30, 2023 6:55 pm wait kilo has been around for nearly 3 and a half years?
has it really been that long already

Archie700 wrote: ↑Mon May 01, 2023 9:42 am It's known in mapping-general for a while that Okand is (slowly) working on zKilo.



If you have any questions or suggestions, raise them with her.

EOB wrote:As for why the decision was made to take Birdshot over Kilo, I believe it is better for us to have a map that has room to grow and an active creator

EOB wrote:the map has consistently proven to be problematic for new code additions due to its scale, and it receives little maintenance outside of the bare essentials as a result

sinfulbliss wrote: ↑Mon May 01, 2023 12:23 pm

EOB wrote:As for why the decision was made to take Birdshot over Kilo, I believe it is better for us to have a map that has room to grow and an active creator

EOB wrote:the map has consistently proven to be problematic for new code additions due to its scale, and it receives little maintenance outside of the bare essentials as a result

Is there something I'm missing here... Okand said he'd be free to add the new things that needed to be added.

It's like downgrading from 1080p to 360p because 360p has "room to grow."

MMMiracles wrote: ↑Mon May 01, 2023 1:54 pm

sinfulbliss wrote: ↑Mon May 01, 2023 12:23 pm

EOB wrote:As for why the decision was made to take Birdshot over Kilo, I believe it is better for us to have a map that has room to grow and an active creator

EOB wrote:the map has consistently proven to be problematic for new code additions due to its scale, and it receives little maintenance outside of the bare essentials as a result

Is there something I'm missing here... Okand said he'd be free to add the new things that needed to be added.

It's like downgrading from 1080p to 360p because 360p has "room to grow."

seems pretty explicit they meant "let old kilo die while i work on the multi-z version in my free time"

sinfulbliss wrote: ↑Mon May 01, 2023 1:57 pm

MMMiracles wrote: ↑Mon May 01, 2023 1:54 pm

sinfulbliss wrote: ↑Mon May 01, 2023 12:23 pm

EOB wrote:As for why the decision was made to take Birdshot over Kilo, I believe it is better for us to have a map that has room to grow and an active creator

EOB wrote:the map has consistently proven to be problematic for new code additions due to its scale, and it receives little maintenance outside of the bare essentials as a result

Is there something I'm missing here... Okand said he'd be free to add the new things that needed to be added.

It's like downgrading from 1080p to 360p because 360p has "room to grow."

seems pretty explicit they meant "let old kilo die while i work on the multi-z version in my free time"

what map will multi Z kilo replace hmmmmmmm?

MMMiracles wrote: ↑Mon May 01, 2023 1:54 pm

sinfulbliss wrote: ↑Mon May 01, 2023 12:23 pm

EOB wrote:As for why the decision was made to take Birdshot over Kilo, I believe it is better for us to have a map that has room to grow and an active creator

EOB wrote:the map has consistently proven to be problematic for new code additions due to its scale, and it receives little maintenance outside of the bare essentials as a result

Is there something I'm missing here... Okand said he'd be free to add the new things that needed to be added.

It's like downgrading from 1080p to 360p because 360p has "room to grow."

seems pretty explicit they meant "let old kilo die while i work on the multi-z version in my free time"

sinfulbliss wrote: ↑Mon May 01, 2023 1:57 pm

MMMiracles wrote: ↑Mon May 01, 2023 1:54 pm

sinfulbliss wrote: ↑Mon May 01, 2023 12:23 pm

EOB wrote:As for why the decision was made to take Birdshot over Kilo, I believe it is better for us to have a map that has room to grow and an active creator

EOB wrote:the map has consistently proven to be problematic for new code additions due to its scale, and it receives little maintenance outside of the bare essentials as a result

Is there something I'm missing here... Okand said he'd be free to add the new things that needed to be added.

It's like downgrading from 1080p to 360p because 360p has "room to grow."

seems pretty explicit they meant "let old kilo die while i work on the multi-z version in my free time"

what map will multi Z kilo replace hmmmmmmm?

sinfulbliss wrote: ↑Sun Apr 30, 2023 4:50 pm ...because it doesn't have an atmos-to-SM pipe...

Thunder11 wrote: ↑Tue May 02, 2023 3:18 pm

sinfulbliss wrote: ↑Sun Apr 30, 2023 4:50 pm ...because it doesn't have an atmos-to-SM pipe...

Dw I got u fam https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/75091