sinful peanut gallery

[Archie700]

viewtopic.php?t=30877&view=unread#unread
local assistant plays stupid games, wins stupid prizes

[CoffeeDragon16]

sinfuls appeals are the worst to deal with. i respect having a video though its very helpful

[Pandarsenic]

I thought you can only appeal notes that are inaccurate, not notes that you just don't like

[CMDR_Gungnir]

I'm kind of impressed by how hard he's rules lawyering. I feel like it should be obvious that the intent of the policy is "Once the conflict is over, it has to escalate again".

Like, the fight's over. You have to put at least SOME mild effort into building back up to the fight, otherwise you could just ambush someone in the halls because they did something to you earlier.

[Archie700]

I'm kind of impressed by how hard he's rules lawyering. I feel like it should be obvious that the intent of the policy is "Once the conflict is over, it has to escalate again".

Like, the fight's over. You have to put at least SOME mild effort into building back up to the fight, otherwise you could just ambush someone in the halls because they did something to you earlier.

Ah, but you see, he didn't KILL the person, he only crit him! So everything they did to de-escalate doesn't matter because the fight is still going on!

[CoffeeDragon16]

I thought you can only appeal notes that are inaccurate, not notes that you just don't like

if u disagree with it that probably means you think its factually inaccurate too

[CMDR_Gungnir]

I'm kind of impressed by how hard he's rules lawyering. I feel like it should be obvious that the intent of the policy is "Once the conflict is over, it has to escalate again".

Like, the fight's over. You have to put at least SOME mild effort into building back up to the fight, otherwise you could just ambush someone in the halls because they did something to you earlier.

Ah, but you see, he didn't KILL the person, he only crit him! So everything they did to de-escalate doesn't matter because the fight is still going on!

brb ambushing the CMO in the halls because he accidentally scalpel'd me instead of surgery because I had a hat on

[Archie700]

sinfuls appeals are the worst to deal with. i respect having a video though its very helpful

In this case it helped us see how he was totally in the wrong

[Vekter]

Hot take but can we just get rid of note appeals? 9 out of 10 fail because they can't prove that the note's not factual and it just ends in the note being slightly modified.

Also anyone arguing that "them" is always plural when singular they/them exists is automatically arguing in bad faith, fuck off.

[wubli]

Hot take but can we just get rid of note appeals? 9 out of 10 fail because they can't prove that the note's not factual and it just ends in the note being slightly modified.

Also anyone arguing that "them" is always plural when singular they/them exists is automatically arguing in bad faith, fuck off.

[deleted comment]

Calling someone a degenerate is a real bruh moment

[iamgoofball]

Hot take but can we just get rid of note appeals? 9 out of 10 fail because they can't prove that the note's not factual and it just ends in the note being slightly modified.

Also anyone arguing that "them" is always plural when singular they/them exists is automatically arguing in bad faith, fuck off.

i disagree
sometimes bad notes do happen and people have a right to object to marks placed against their accounts by admins

also, then we can't laugh at morons like sinfulbliss who literally post video evidence of them being a greytiding shithead while going "WOW WHAT DID I DO WRONG???"

[Super Aggro Crag]

Hot take but can we just get rid of note appeals? 9 out of 10 fail because they can't prove that the note's not factual and it just ends in the note being slightly modified.

Also anyone arguing that "them" is always plural when singular they/them exists is automatically arguing in bad faith, fuck off.

[removed comment]

Calling someone a degenerate is a real bruh moment

Would you have preferred i called you chud, you putrid simpering blubberfuck?

Even fucking goofball is being more right than you on this matter in particular. Christ.

[BONERMASTER]

People skills get you further than a flash does. Sinful, you fucking around with the locker and then pulling out the flash to drop the engineer, completely out of the blue, was the worst way to ask for insulated gloves, peacefully at least.
Rather than reviewing the rules and policy of the game, I would recommend reviewing your own conduct ingame. A good way to start that is to ask yourself how you, as the opposing party, would have handled that situation.

That's also a good tip for lawyering in general. You are more convicning if you arguments tackle the fundamental view and understanding of a concept, rather than the placement and spelling of a few words in a rulebook.


With lawful regards
-BONERMASTER

[sinfulbliss]

People skills get you further than a flash does. Sinful, you fucking around with the locker and then pulling out the flash to drop the engineer, completely out of the blue, was the worst way to ask for insulated gloves, peacefully at least.
Rather than reviewing the rules and policy of the game, I would recommend reviewing your own conduct ingame. A good way to start that is to ask yourself how you, as the opposing party, would have handled that situation.

That's also a good tip for lawyering in general. You are more convicning if you arguments tackle the fundamental view and understanding of a concept, rather than the placement and spelling of a few words in a rulebook.


With lawful regards
-BONERMASTER

The only part of my behavior I somewhat regret, was flashing him out of the blue. I should have just dragged the locker to maint or something instead. But even this was not something noteworthy, flashing someone a few times is an IC issue.

It's not about placement and spelling. It's about when you are allowed to retaliate in response to being attacked. Previously you could retaliate up and until you were killed and revived. I was only crit, so I was allowed to retaliate. Now the policy is amended so you can retaliate up and until you are incapacitated and treated. This isn't rule-lawyering, it's a completely different policy in practice.

[CMDR_Gungnir]

People skills get you further than a flash does. Sinful, you fucking around with the locker and then pulling out the flash to drop the engineer, completely out of the blue, was the worst way to ask for insulated gloves, peacefully at least.
Rather than reviewing the rules and policy of the game, I would recommend reviewing your own conduct ingame. A good way to start that is to ask yourself how you, as the opposing party, would have handled that situation.

That's also a good tip for lawyering in general. You are more convicning if you arguments tackle the fundamental view and understanding of a concept, rather than the placement and spelling of a few words in a rulebook.


With lawful regards
-BONERMASTER

The only part of my behavior I somewhat regret, was flashing him out of the blue. I should have just dragged the locker to maint or something instead. But even this was not something noteworthy, flashing someone a few times is an IC issue.

It's not about placement and spelling. It's about when you are allowed to retaliate in response to being attacked. Previously you could retaliate up and until you were killed and revived. I was only crit, so I was allowed to retaliate. Now the policy is amended so you can retaliate up and until you are incapacitated and treated. This isn't rule-lawyering, it's a completely different policy in practice.

It strikes me as the difference between RAW and RAI. The spirit of the rule is very clearly that once the fight is over, the fight is over, and it has to be worked towards again (unless you have reason to believe they're an antag). The wording may be "killed" and "revived", but what real significance do they have that simply being crit/brought out of crit doesn't? It's not like most players actually pretend to care about death. If the policy wasn't that once you get revived the fight's over, you'd probably just go straight back, right?

[Kendrickorium]

Hot take but can we just get rid of note appeals? 9 out of 10 fail because they can't prove that the note's not factual and it just ends in the note being slightly modified.

Also anyone arguing that "them" is always plural when singular they/them exists is automatically arguing in bad faith, fuck off.

digg has rotted your brain.

[Rohen_Tahir]

Sinfulbliss moment

[TheFinalPotato]

I hate players

[cacogen]

Yeah those engineers should've recognised that what he was doing didn't matter and not made a big thing of it

[wubli]

Previously you could retaliate up and until you were killed and revived. I was only crit, so I was allowed to retaliate. Now the policy is amended so you can retaliate up and until you are incapacitated and treated. This isn't rule-lawyering, it's a completely different policy in practice.

you do know that not being killed, but instead just being critted, is a good thing, right? and instead of taking it as deescalation you chose to go over the policy and said "well they didn't do this arguably worse thing. which means i'm OK to retaliate against them". can you call this acting in good faith?

[Farquaar]

This appeal gives me a headache just reading it.

Hot take but can we just get rid of note appeals? 9 out of 10 fail because they can't prove that the note's not factual and it just ends in the note being slightly modified.

Also mega digg janny energy

[iamgoofball]

It's not about placement and spelling. It's about when you are allowed to retaliate in response to being attacked. Previously you could retaliate up and until you were killed and revived. I was only crit, so I was allowed to retaliate. Now the policy is amended so you can retaliate up and until you are incapacitated and treated. This isn't rule-lawyering, it's a completely different policy in practice.

hey i cant call you a fucking dipshit moron in the actual ban appeal (i have to use facts and evidence to do so there), but let me reiterate here


new escalation policy still says you get fucking chewed out by an admin because it doesn't matter what happens in the conflict, if it ends up violent and the source cause is stupid(ie. "me want insuls"), it's the person who fucking started it's fault

and you started it by trying to steal the engineer's ID you fucking moron

learn to fucking use your words to ask for things next time

try pressing T to use the Say verb hotkey

[iamgoofball]

"BRO IT WAS SELF DEFENSE BRO"


from your stupid video

[Archie700]

So let me go and sum up the video because honestly I'm bored about this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AGb0VIfJfVY
You decided to go and loot the engineer of his ID (?) because he didn't respond to you the first time you asked.
Then, after he shoves you and and tries to take it away from you, you decide to do a tug of war with him. He askes you to stop, at which point you say "just one pair", and he says you "already ave a apair", at which point you decide the smart idea was to flash him (??).
You fail to clarify anything and chase after him as he flees to engineering, at which point the CE and janitor join in the fight against you and see you have a flash (as assistant). You shovefight with them for a while, and then the janitor resorts to a beartrap to slow you down because you were moving around so much in engineering. You decide to attack him with a welder(???).
At this point, the engineer sees you're attacking the janitor and goes to combat intent himself, deciding to help the janitor. Escalating to harm by this point, you end up attacking people with a toolbox (the janitor and the engineer) and another engineer goes in to shove you. You are brought into crit, but not killed, and it seems they decided to spare killing you in favor of having the other engineer bring you to medbay, while not reporting to security, but stripping you of your flash, toolbelt and cuffs (which is to be fair, fitting). Note that you were just kicked out.
Now we go to 5 minutes later.
You somehow acquired a stunbaton and some metal rods and glass shards for spears (????) and decide to come back to engineering to take revenge on the engineer for having the audacity to crit you instead of killing you. He goes and hides himself and says you are breaking escalation policy (side note: some OOC in IC), he tries to escape, but you break through and start attacking him to hardcrit (?????). A plasmaman paramedic walks by and tells you to stop, but you continue. You decide to fireman carry (fine), but then see the CE, who rightfully concludes that you did wrong and tried to flash you, you decide to stun baton him twice in retaliation (??????) and then proceed to loot the guy of his toolbelt, PDA and gloves (???????) and try to exit. At this point, the CE has enough and flashes you down, then kills you. Realizing that you're more trouble than you're worth, the engineer, who nearly got robbed and critted, decides that you shouldn't be revived and throws you to the SM. The CE does raise a question, but doesn't actually do anything, neither did any of the other people who came in.

Did you, at any point, think through how you could avert this getting worse?

EDIT: Something that came in my mind, you said it yourself that only upon death and revival could the fight be de-escalated. Yet, you left the guy alive to be treated by the paramedic. By your own words, he should continue the conflict, because it never stops unless someone dies.

[massa]

also, then we can't laugh at morons like sinfulbliss who literally post video evidence of them being a greytiding shithead while going "WOW WHAT DID I DO WRONG???"

Yeah he' broke into' engineering and flashed a guy 3 times (after asking politely many times), whatever. He didn't hurt them afterwards and stopped, and kept asking politely. I'll kill someone who walks towards me with a flash sure, but not if they flash me then do nothing at all. But you seriously think he's being a tiding shithead? He asked politely numerous times (pleases and sirs in point), asked for de-escalation too, many "cease"'s as he actively and deliberately avoided conflict. What he did was basically a shove, then stopped, and tried to correct course.

It was only after he was threatened with the opening of a plasma canister, the brandishing of a charging telescoping baton, and then being bear trapped and physically assaulted by a janitor by 3 different people shoving and very clearly being aggressive with him. A janitor who was in Engineering, why? Killing and attacking someone he had no reason to be in conflict with? The engineers, sure. That janitor escalated harder than Axle or the Engineers did, against Axle. Everything Axle did before that was mostly normal SS13 shenanigans. He only used lethal force after a jannie, looking for trouble, not in his department, bear trapped him.

Now the policy is amended so you can retaliate up and until you are incapacitated and treated. This isn't rule-lawyering, it's a completely different policy in practice.

I'm not sure how much gasoline-cut crack cocaine you need to be boofing to think that this rule will be ever practiced seriously as an admin. The only way something gets 'reset' is if the round ends or I get taken to medbay and I instigated. If some rat actually pushes me to the point I kill them/felt the need to kill them (as a non-antag) in my department, as a human OOC, and IC, I have literally 0 reason to do anything for the person who forced my hand to that point. Why would I bring someone to medbay if they behaved in a manner that actually forced me to kill them? Also, I should probably read all the details, but if you get killed and dragged out of maint by a paramedic and revived, no fucking way in hell is has the conflict cooled down at all.

[cacogen]

Greytide is a code problem and the only solution is to give these people something to do that they will actually do.

Add departmental assistants and assign them to crewmembers who opt into it and make them like golems where they're slaves who have to follow orders unquestioningly.

Alternatively: assistant killswitches.

You could also make assistants into drones. But drone is tedious shit since they got rid of the duffelbag and you can no longer carry things. Don't do this.

Alternatively: In Time assistants. The assistants are going to die of time poisoning. But if the crew give them time, it will stave off the time disease by that amount of time. So they must perform for the crew to continue having time. If time runs out, they get droppodded into a retirement home/slaughterhouse/organ harvesting ring/farm upstate to live out the rest of their time. But the key is that the currency keeping them on the station is also valuable to the people allotted it so they aren't just dumping it on assistants they like to keep them from being deported. The only problem with making it money to pay for periodic NT extortion is that the credit is so fucking weak. Like 2k is more than enough to sustain the average person their entire round. You don't want or need to spend more than that. There's cargo private orders in the want category but they don't get used often. I don't think they're visible or worthwhile enough. You make it stuff people actually value like a single 250k pulse rifle or a 25k bag of holding and people will start hoarding their wealth.

Alternatively: Assistant summon button. You press it and the Assistant is fucked off right to you. What good is a pair of gloves if you are now in a cell?

[Super Aggro Crag]

i once suggested a pest control Pr that added a bunch of annoying things in maint to give the assistants something to kill because they'd get in the way of their maint loot.

[mindstormy]

Video was a great touch. Made it much easier to place the blame on themselves and get the appeal denied.

[Qbmax32]

most sane assistant player

[Qbmax32]

also, then we can't laugh at morons like sinfulbliss who literally post video evidence of them being a greytiding shithead while going "WOW WHAT DID I DO WRONG???"

Yeah he' broke into' engineering and flashed a guy 3 times (after asking politely many times), whatever. He didn't hurt them afterwards and stopped, and kept asking politely. I'll kill someone who walks towards me with a flash sure, but not if they flash me then do nothing at all. But you seriously think he's being a tiding shithead? He asked politely numerous times (pleases and sirs in point), asked for de-escalation too, many "cease"'s as he actively and deliberately avoided conflict. What he did was basically a shove, then stopped, and tried to correct course.

It was only after he was threatened with the opening of a plasma canister, the brandishing of a charging telescoping baton, and then being bear trapped and physically assaulted by a janitor by 3 different people shoving and very clearly being aggressive with him. A janitor who was in Engineering, why? Killing and attacking someone he had no reason to be in conflict with? The engineers, sure. That janitor escalated harder than Axle or the Engineers did, against Axle. Everything Axle did before that was mostly normal SS13 shenanigans. He only used lethal force after a jannie, looking for trouble, not in his department, bear trapped him.

Now the policy is amended so you can retaliate up and until you are incapacitated and treated. This isn't rule-lawyering, it's a completely different policy in practice.

I'm not sure how much gasoline-cut crack cocaine you need to be boofing to think that this rule will be ever practiced seriously as an admin. The only way something gets 'reset' is if the round ends or I get taken to medbay and I instigated. If some rat actually pushes me to the point I kill them/felt the need to kill them (as a non-antag) in my department, as a human OOC, and IC, I have literally 0 reason to do anything for the person who forced my hand to that point. Why would I bring someone to medbay if they behaved in a manner that actually forced me to kill them? Also, I should probably read all the details, but if you get killed and dragged out of maint by a paramedic and revived, no fucking way in hell is has the conflict cooled down at all.

tldr btw no one cares + you play assistant

[Qbmax32]

im triple posting

[Super Aggro Crag]

^^^ ban this sick filth ^^^

[massa]

you play assistant

we are the blood that flows in the veins of this server

[Vekter]

Hot take but can we just get rid of note appeals? 9 out of 10 fail because they can't prove that the note's not factual and it just ends in the note being slightly modified.

Also anyone arguing that "them" is always plural when singular they/them exists is automatically arguing in bad faith, fuck off.

[removed comment]

Calling someone a degenerate is a real bruh moment

Would you have preferred i called you chud, you putrid simpering blubberfuck?

I actually find that more offensive given how lefty I am. Cut down on the salt a bit, it's bad for your heart.

[NoxVS]

People skills get you further than a flash does. Sinful, you fucking around with the locker and then pulling out the flash to drop the engineer, completely out of the blue, was the worst way to ask for insulated gloves, peacefully at least.
Rather than reviewing the rules and policy of the game, I would recommend reviewing your own conduct ingame. A good way to start that is to ask yourself how you, as the opposing party, would have handled that situation.

That's also a good tip for lawyering in general. You are more convicning if you arguments tackle the fundamental view and understanding of a concept, rather than the placement and spelling of a few words in a rulebook.


With lawful regards
-BONERMASTER

The only part of my behavior I somewhat regret, was flashing him out of the blue. I should have just dragged the locker to maint or something instead. But even this was not something noteworthy, flashing someone a few times is an IC issue.

It's not about placement and spelling. It's about when you are allowed to retaliate in response to being attacked. Previously you could retaliate up and until you were killed and revived. I was only crit, so I was allowed to retaliate. Now the policy is amended so you can retaliate up and until you are incapacitated and treated. This isn't rule-lawyering, it's a completely different policy in practice.

Get out of your own peanut you clown

[Cobby]

the only part of my behavior i somewhat regret is not taking the rules even more literally and saying that because I, the person playing the video game, is still alive and not killed I can therefore return to combat.

[Farquaar]

the only part of my behavior i somewhat regret is not taking the rules even more literally and saying that because I, the person playing the video game, is still alive and not killed I can therefore return to combat.

Unless you drive over to my house and personally escort me to the hospital, you've violated escalation policy.

[Cobby]

the only part of my behavior i somewhat regret is not taking the rules even more literally and saying that because I, the person playing the video game, is still alive and not killed I can therefore return to combat.

Unless you drive over to my house and personally escort me to the hospital, you've violated escalation policy.

you're in IRL crit so you could come back I have to kill you hopefully god didnt remove cloning

[Farquaar]

the only part of my behavior i somewhat regret is not taking the rules even more literally and saying that because I, the person playing the video game, is still alive and not killed I can therefore return to combat.

Unless you drive over to my house and personally escort me to the hospital, you've violated escalation policy.

you're in IRL crit so you could come back I have to kill you hopefully god didnt remove cloning

Just inject my blood into the rhubarb plant I've got in the backyard. I'll be fine.

[Cobby]

i harvested before you crossed over rip.

can you tell me who the antags are?

[Boot]

snip

I was called over to clean because the engineering team o2 suicided shift start. That's why you can see all of the organs stacked on the table. I was a pacifist and bear trapping was the only way I saw to help take down what I assumed was a revhead.

[Super Aggro Crag]

Hot take but can we just get rid of note appeals? 9 out of 10 fail because they can't prove that the note's not factual and it just ends in the note being slightly modified.

Also anyone arguing that "them" is always plural when singular they/them exists is automatically arguing in bad faith, fuck off.

[removed comment]

Calling someone a degenerate is a real bruh moment

Would you have preferred i called you chud, you putrid simpering blubberfuck?

I actually find that more offensive given how lefty I am. Cut down on the salt a bit, it's bad for your heart.

go get boosted you fucking nazi

[massa]

snip

I was called over to clean because the engineering team o2 suicided shift start. That's why you can see all of the organs stacked on the table. I was a pacifist and bear trapping was the only way I saw to help take down what I assumed was a revhead.

Why would you assume the revhead would continue to be attacked by a converted rev? For 2 minutes?

Pacifist or not, a bear trap is a violent action that cripples and bleeds. Then, the ONE person the alleged revhead flashed comes back and starts battering him, and you make sure to join in on it (you continued pushing), AFTER you, yourself, had been flashed, and not been converted, eliminating suspicion that he was a revhead, with the engineer you thought he just converted to aid his cause doing the heavy lifting of toolboxing his 2d skull. I guess at this point it was just a fight and those get messy. I don't think you were very much in the wrong at all, though. I get how it played it out, it was a fast series of confusing events, and you did get flashed towards where he got critted.

This shit is an IC issue tbh.

[oranges]

vekter is the most authoritarian admin

[Super Aggro Crag]

vekter is the most authoritarian admin

No oranges you dont get it if we dont give him and others like more power without oversight we might use our damnable tolerance and liberties to bring about a totalitarian fascist staff.

[TheFinalPotato]

Greytide is a code problem and the only solution is to give these people something to do that they will actually do.

People who greytide tend to have seen most of the game, and reached a state of boredom with the mechanics. Don't think giving them more to do would help, if they wanted something to do they'd be playing captain or sec.
Seems like an admin issue to me, and it seems like the admin solution is working.

[GamerAndYeahMick]

Hot take but can we just get rid of note appeals? 9 out of 10 fail because they can't prove that the note's not factual and it just ends in the note being slightly modified.

Also anyone arguing that "them" is always plural when singular they/them exists is automatically arguing in bad faith, fuck off.

i've seen some absolute what moment notes before so this would be a bad idea

[Archie700]

snip

I was called over to clean because the engineering team o2 suicided shift start. That's why you can see all of the organs stacked on the table. I was a pacifist and bear trapping was the only way I saw to help take down what I assumed was a revhead.

Why would you assume the revhead would continue to be attacked by a converted rev? For 2 minutes?

Pacifist or not, a bear trap is a violent action that cripples and bleeds. Then, the ONE person the alleged revhead flashed comes back and starts battering him, and you make sure to join in on it (you continued pushing), AFTER you, yourself, had been flashed, and not been converted, eliminating suspicion that he was a revhead, with the engineer you thought he just converted to aid his cause doing the heavy lifting of toolboxing his 2d skull. I guess at this point it was just a fight and those get messy. I don't think you were very much in the wrong at all, though. I get how it played it out, it was a fast series of confusing events, and you did get flashed towards where he got critted.

This shit is an IC issue tbh.

The original fight was started because Axle decided, somehow, to take the ID due to non-response and it escalated from there because to the CE and janitor, it looked like Axle was being greytider shit and it went on for long enough that eventually harmful methods had to be employed to stop him.
That was fine.
Critting the engineer later wasn't.

[iwishforducks]

lol

[Qbmax32]

Hot take but can we just get rid of note appeals? 9 out of 10 fail because they can't prove that the note's not factual and it just ends in the note being slightly modified.

Also anyone arguing that "them" is always plural when singular they/them exists is automatically arguing in bad faith, fuck off.

this is goofy btw notes are a punishment/bad thing and making them unappealable would be cringe