NEW RULE 12 OFFICIAL PLAYER REACTION THREAD !!LIVE!!

[RaveRadbury]

After a lot of deliberation, we have come up with a new rule in response to this thread.

Rule 12: This is a sandbox roleplaying game
The purpose of the game is to have fun roleplaying. Play-to-win gameplay that ruins the purpose of the game at the expense of others is against the rules.

Rule 12 Precedents

• Playing-to-win is to focus exclusively on a competitive victory condition, such as killing all antagonists. It is not empowering yourself to achieve personal goals, or taking measures to survive the shift
• Taking a few items beyond what you need to do your job is usually fine, especially if they're not needed by anyone else. Examples of okay items to take include taking a medkit from the public Medbay lobby or the insulated gloves from tech storage. Hoarding lots of station resources for poor reasons may break this rule and be handled administratively.
• Genuine conflict with other players does not ruin the purpose of the game. Player conflicts will continue to be administrated in line with Escalation Rules.

Headmin Votes:
RaveRadbury: Agree
Dragomagol: Agree
NamelessFairy: Agree - During the community meeting some of you may remember that I was opposed to rule 3 when it was brought up. To be clear I agree with some of the objectives set out by it but not the initial rule as a whole and I have over the past few weeks been working with my fellow headmins to change the rule into something that I think will still accomplish most of what it set out to accomplish while also making it something that I think will be more widely accepted.

[Boot]

Rave trying to ruin the game one more time before they lose power.

[RaveRadbury]

Rave trying to ruin the game one more time before they lose power.

Buddy I got five more days, is there anything else I can do for you?

[sinfulbliss]

Playing-to-win is to focus exclusively on a competitive victory condition, such as killing all antagonists.

If security kills the antagonists, is that playing to win, or are they exempt from this rule?

Genuine conflict with other players does not ruin the purpose of the game. Player conflicts will continue to be administrated in line with Escalation Rules.

This is a sort of odd one. What does it add to the rule?

[Super Aggro Crag]

don't worry maybe the manuelmin head triumvirate will overturn it in 6 days :^)

[Stickymayhem]

tgstation is dead

[san7890]

[YBS]

No Valids??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

[iamgoofball]

based

[wesoda25]

Neat, although I admittedly can’t quite wrap my head around it all. Whats the headmins team vision for a future tg where this rule is well established?

[tjatpbnj]

Neat

[sinfulbliss]

Neat, although I admittedly can’t quite wrap my head around it all. Whats the headmins team vision for a future tg where this rule is well established?

this is what I want to know. what admins are deciding about rule 12 enforcement amongst themselves should be transparent.

[NoxVS]

tgstation is dead

long live tgstation

[Vekter]

Neat, although I admittedly can’t quite wrap my head around it all. Whats the headmins team vision for a future tg where this rule is well established?

this is what I want to know. what admins are deciding about rule 12 enforcement amongst themselves should be transparent.

From what I understand, the basic idea is "if you spend most of your time most rounds doing nothing but hunting valids, we're going to have a talk".

[Shadowflame909]

i want more content centered around da rules

what am i gonna use my state of the art lavaland gamer gear on except for valids??? hello???

[TheFinalPotato]

Are you sure you want that question answered

[Vekter]

I also wanna clarify that "picking up random shit that might be helpful" isn't covered under this rule, and neither is beating the piss out of an antag who's trying to hurt you/others. It's when you make hunting antags your only purpose that it starts to stray into rule 12 territory.

I'm also very certain this is not the kind of thing that will get you banned for it happening once or twice.

[Fikou]

[datorangebottle]

From what I understand, the basic idea is "if you spend most of your time most rounds doing nothing but hunting valids, we're going to have a talk".

secoff mains BTFO

[Rohen_Tahir]

[sinfulbliss]

It's when you make hunting antags your only purpose that it starts to stray into rule 12 territory.

is this treated equally for sec and validhunters alike? sec's main job on LRP is to hunt/stop antags. detective's job is quite literally to find evidence of antag activity to give to sec to then hunt them.
i would expect hunting antags as sec is allowed but how they're treated should be proportional to their offenses instead of validing them for existing. the rule is very unclear about this though

[Vekter]

It's when you make hunting antags your only purpose that it starts to stray into rule 12 territory.

is this treated equally for sec and validhunters alike? sec's main job on LRP is to hunt/stop antags. detective's job is quite literally to find evidence of antag activity to give to sec to then hunt them.
i would expect hunting antags as sec is allowed but how they're treated should be proportional to their offenses instead of validing them for existing. the rule is very unclear about this though

Sec's main job on LRP is to keep the peace, not just hunt antags. That being said, in my opinion, the rule's not intended to punish people who play Sec with the purpose of stopping antags. The only instance where I can imagine this would be an issue would be a Sec player taking a bunch of random shit from other departments to help them get antags.

[Farquaar]

I guess as long as the new rule is only used to ban serial offenders who are toeing the line for a rule 1 ban, it's fine. I hope we don't see dumb stuff like clowns getting bwoinked for grabbing toolbelts. The Headmins should clamp down on that sort of banbotting if they see it.

[Alphanerdd]

valid hunters mad long live the headmins

[sinfulbliss]

Sec's main job on LRP is to keep the peace, not just hunt antags.

I respect this view but disagree with it for LRP. Usually it's more sensible to focus on finding the big fish (antags), since they're the ones that'll really be causing the greatest disturbance in the peace, rather than intervene in squabbles. New escalation policy seems to reinforce this playstyle for sec as well - if someone is actually being wronged in a squabble, they can ahelp. If their conflict was valid, and this is just my opinion, sec should let them handle it amongst themselves.

That being said, in my opinion, the rule's not intended to punish people who play Sec with the purpose of stopping antags. The only instance where I can imagine this would be an issue would be a Sec player taking a bunch of random shit from other departments to help them get antags.

This is understandable. It would be nice to hear the headmins confirm that's how it should be treated, though. I've heard Tattle for instance say that steamrolling antags as sec would be a rule 12 violation, whereas a back-and-forth wouldn't. That seems to punish sec players for being good at their jobs (I'm not sure what was meant by steamrolling though).

[Epicgamer545]

Validhunters are dead, and we killed them.

Anyway, in seriousness and my personal option, this rule ain’t so bad. I think this is a good step to making /TG/ just a little more fair. I just don’t want any admins banning someone for getting an toolbelt (that was confirmed in the posts above, so I have good feelings that this rule won’t be abused). I always thought the non-RP servers were more chaotic than MRP, and this rule completely changes everything. Let’s see what happens, then???

[Vekter]

Sec's main job on LRP is to keep the peace, not just hunt antags.

I respect this view but disagree with it for LRP. Usually it's more sensible to focus on finding the big fish (antags), since they're the ones that'll really be causing the greatest disturbance in the peace, rather than intervene in squabbles. New escalation policy seems to reinforce this playstyle for sec as well - if someone is actually being wronged in a squabble, they can ahelp. If their conflict was valid, and this is just my opinion, sec should let them handle it amongst themselves.

With all due respect, it's not our job to be handling every little IC squabble that happens. Sec's job is to catch criminals and punish them, and that includes everything from simple vandalism to attempted murder. If you're just playing sec solely to catch antags, I'd rather you play another role.

[Bawhoppennn]

Cool I guess. Hope it doesn't get taken too far, though I expect it won't really be used much more than rule 1 in practice.

[sinfulbliss]

Sec's job is to catch criminals and punish them, and that includes everything from simple vandalism to attempted murder. If you're just playing sec solely to catch antags, I'd rather you play another role.

Only an absolute psychopath would arrest people for simple vandalism on LRP. There is simply no chance you could arrest every single person that commits a minor crime, and even if you could, you'd be putting half the station in gulag. Getting bogged down with shovefights and shittery in the hallways while a cult is slowly growing its base unknown in maint is a pretty terrible way to play security. Nothing makes antag easier than when sec is on a 20 minute chase after 3 nonantag assistants for hacking into medbay.

Obviously major nonantag crimes like hacking into bridge, brig, possession of restricted items etc. should still be handled. But that's only because all these things pose a legitimate threat.

[Rohen_Tahir]

Sec's job is to catch criminals and punish them, and that includes everything from simple vandalism to attempted murder. If you're just playing sec solely to catch antags, I'd rather you play another role.

Only an absolute psychopath would arrest people for simple vandalism on LRP. There is simply no chance you could arrest every single person that commits a minor crime, and even if you could, you'd be putting half the station in gulag. Getting bogged down with shovefights and shittery in the hallways while a cult is slowly growing its base unknown in maint is a pretty terrible way to play security. Nothing makes antag easier than when sec is on a 20 minute chase after 3 nonantag assistants for hacking into medbay.

Obviously major nonantag crimes like hacking into bridge, brig, possession of restricted items etc. should still be handled. But that's only because all these things pose a legitimate threat.

Are sure your real life skull shape is within norm and indentation-free?

[sinfulbliss]

Sec's job is to catch criminals and punish them, and that includes everything from simple vandalism to attempted murder. If you're just playing sec solely to catch antags, I'd rather you play another role.

Only an absolute psychopath would arrest people for simple vandalism on LRP. There is simply no chance you could arrest every single person that commits a minor crime, and even if you could, you'd be putting half the station in gulag. Getting bogged down with shovefights and shittery in the hallways while a cult is slowly growing its base unknown in maint is a pretty terrible way to play security. Nothing makes antag easier than when sec is on a 20 minute chase after 3 nonantag assistants for hacking into medbay.

Obviously major nonantag crimes like hacking into bridge, brig, possession of restricted items etc. should still be handled. But that's only because all these things pose a legitimate threat.

Are sure your real life skull shape is within norm and indentation-free?

you're a virgin + L + ratio

[tjatpbnj]

Only an absolute psychopath would arrest people for simple vandalism on LRP. There is simply no chance you could arrest every single person that commits a minor crime, and even if you could, you'd be putting half the station in gulag. Getting bogged down with shovefights and shittery in the hallways while a cult is slowly growing its base unknown in maint is a pretty terrible way to play security. Nothing makes antag easier than when sec is on a 20 minute chase after 3 nonantag assistants for hacking into medbay.

Obviously major nonantag crimes like hacking into bridge, brig, possession of restricted items etc. should still be handled. But that's only because all these things pose a legitimate threat.

Sec's job is to deal with criminals. If you don't deal with thieves/vandals or the like of them, instead trying to find antags (who may not even exist), then you are ignoring your job in favor of validhunting.

Catching antags isn't your only job. If this cult base is truly growing unknown in maint, then why should you care at all? You have no clue it exists, and those assistants that broke into engi to steal insulated gloves also need to be punished.

[Vekter]

Only an absolute psychopath would arrest people for simple vandalism on LRP. There is simply no chance you could arrest every single person that commits a minor crime, and even if you could, you'd be putting half the station in gulag. Getting bogged down with shovefights and shittery in the hallways while a cult is slowly growing its base unknown in maint is a pretty terrible way to play security. Nothing makes antag easier than when sec is on a 20 minute chase after 3 nonantag assistants for hacking into medbay.

Obviously major nonantag crimes like hacking into bridge, brig, possession of restricted items etc. should still be handled. But that's only because all these things pose a legitimate threat.

I got nothin'. There's absolutely nothing I can say to this that isn't going to be insulting.

I guess all I can say is, as someone who's been playing on and off for about ten years, you're about as wrong as anyone's ever been.

[sinfulbliss]

Catching antags isn't your only job. If this cult base is truly growing unknown in maint, then why should you care at all? You have no clue it exists, and those assistants that broke into engi to steal insulated gloves also need to be punished.

I should care because, yknow, by the time you find out they'll have haloes and the station will be sacrificed to an eldritch god and go up in flames? Why in the fuck would you pussyfoot around with an assistant stealing insuls? You get the engi his insuls back, flush the tider down disposals, then move on to things that actually matter.

I guess all I can say is, as someone who's been playing on and off for about ten years, you're about as wrong as anyone's ever been.

As someone who has like 1200 security hours ((would not recommend btw)) I suggest you just play like a few rounds of security on an LRP server and attempt to do what you're suggesting. I promise it will not go well.

[Farquaar]

Only an absolute psychopath would arrest people for simple vandalism on LRP.

Tbh one of my fondest Sybil memories was being a detective and finding out who spraypainted “clown rules sec sux” (or something like that) in the sec hallway. It was the chaplain framing the clown, but I think he intended to get caught (he left his spraycan behind) and it made the round extra fun for a newbie detective.

[tjatpbnj]

Catching antags isn't your only job. If this cult base is truly growing unknown in maint, then why should you care at all? You have no clue it exists, and those assistants that broke into engi to steal insulated gloves also need to be punished.

I should care because, yknow, by the time you find out they'll have haloes and the station will be sacrificed to an eldritch god and go up in flames? Why in the fuck would you pussyfoot around with an assistant stealing insuls? You get the engi his insuls back, flush the tider down disposals, then move on to things that actually matter.

You would arrest the assistant first because you don't even know if there's a blood cult. Why would you prioritize looking for antags over punishing actual crimes, if you don't know those antags exist?

In a round where the antags aren't so significant, like a traitor round, validhunting like this is even less justified. Dealing with petty criminals should be higher on the priority list than looking for antags whose locations and identities you may not even know. Medical doctors don't look for corpses when there are people in medbay asking to be healed.

[Rohen_Tahir]

Sec's job is to catch criminals and punish them, and that includes everything from simple vandalism to attempted murder. If you're just playing sec solely to catch antags, I'd rather you play another role.

Only an absolute psychopath would arrest people for simple vandalism on LRP. There is simply no chance you could arrest every single person that commits a minor crime, and even if you could, you'd be putting half the station in gulag. Getting bogged down with shovefights and shittery in the hallways while a cult is slowly growing its base unknown in maint is a pretty terrible way to play security. Nothing makes antag easier than when sec is on a 20 minute chase after 3 nonantag assistants for hacking into medbay.

Obviously major nonantag crimes like hacking into bridge, brig, possession of restricted items etc. should still be handled. But that's only because all these things pose a legitimate threat.

Are sure your real life skull shape is within norm and indentation-free?

you're a virgin + L + ratio

source?

[Vekter]

Only an absolute psychopath would arrest people for simple vandalism on LRP.

Tbh one of my fondest Sybil memories was being a detective and finding out who spraypainted “clown rules sec sux” (or something like that) in the sec hallway. It was the chaplain framing the clown, but I think he intended to get caught (he left his spraycan behind) and it made the round extra fun for a newbie detective.

This is what so many newer players miss out on. You're so convinced that this is some AMOGUS social deduction game that you're more worried about winning than just having fun and enjoying the roleplay.

As someone who has like 1200 security hours ((would not recommend btw)) I suggest you just play like a few rounds of security on an LRP server and attempt to do what you're suggesting. I promise it will not go well.

1) Why the fuck do you have 1200 hours in a role you don't enjoy
2) It's okay but I mostly play sec on MRP because it's an easier job there due to the rules. From what I understand, the headmins are hoping rule 12 will help alleviate this on LRP as well.

[iamgoofball]

you'd be putting half the station in gulag

good

[sinfulbliss]

1) Why the fuck do you have 1200 hours in a role you don't enjoy
2) It's okay but I mostly play sec on MRP because it's an easier job there due to the rules. From what I understand, the headmins are hoping rule 12 will help alleviate this on LRP as well.

If you mostly play sec on MRP it’s a totally different job there, in my experience. Arresting for petty crimes and following spacelaw closer makes sense there. Also I love sec I’m just joshin.

Dealing with petty criminals should be higher on the priority list than looking for antags whose locations and identities you may not even know. Medical doctors don't look for corpses when there are people in medbay asking to be healed.

It’s more like, a med doctor ignoring a patient who came to medbay with minor bruising to go look for possible dead guys in maint. Also imagine there’s a command report that says how chaotic the shift will be. If it’s impending doom there’s no way I’m going to chase a tider for 10 min and process him for another 5 for insul theft. A fourth of the shift for that?

[blackdav123]

Playing-to-win is to focus exclusively on a competitive victory condition, such as killing all antagonists.

If security kills the antagonists, is that playing to win, or are they exempt from this rule?

Security should not be playing to "kill valid". It is their job to deal with and neutralize threats, but not to ensure nothing happens for the rest of the shift because every antag was executed on the spot the instant they are caught hacking a door. Perma is great because people can escape and continue to add to the round.

[tjatpbnj]

It’s more like, a med doctor ignoring a patient who came to medbay with minor bruising to go look for possible dead guys in maint. Also imagine there’s a command report that says how chaotic the shift will be. If it’s impending doom there’s no way I’m going to chase a tider for 10 min and process him for another 5 for insul theft. A fourth of the shift for that?

The command report is basically meaningless. It doesn't tell you how busy a shift will be.

Why should you ignore someone committing a crime just because you think there will be valids to go after instead, if you wait? It's your ONLY job. If you don't want to arrest criminals, why are you playing sec?

[YBS]

I love this take on sec so as a semi-sec main who's had to wrangle on LRP I am happy to chime in.

As a solo officer twiddling your baton, you have to pick your battles when things go tits up high chaos.

Great example, I do one lap around the metaloop. I see three things.
>Someone psychically throwing a spear into a naked corpse.
>Someone dragging a body who is not medical, southbound maybe
>Someone staring at a command door with an open latch, obviously breaking in

I'll probably choose the breakin, report the psychic spear along the way and more or less hope the corpsedrag was a legitimate medical pull. I agree you can't catch everybody, and I've been there where you're suddenly in a 1v2/3/4 with shitlers tiding over a broken window.

That window situation is another good hypothetical. You can't make a magic crowd arrest, so you pop back, set them all to wanted and get backup or arm up to pick them up one by one. I think you have to enjoy the hunt and be smarter than just brawling to make multiple small arrests work on LRP. Then when you're dragging them and they go "bro lmao ratio that was forever ago" you can say "True, but the law remembers." And give them the vandalism, plus rioting, plus assault, plus evading arrest.

I've been to a point where it is so high chaos that I am basically giving everyone who resists a free ride to go slap dirt at the funny farm. Sure, you might get bwoinked when one of them cries. However, every admin I've ever interacted with about it has been pleasant and understanding once I explain that I am in the grey tide rapids and I am using my stun baton as a paddle. If that's enough to make you give up and go scouring for antag you might want to hang up the red hat and relax for awhile.

[Archie700]

I sure love getting killed just for stealing the advanced boots and wearing them. (Not even putting a bug, just wearing)

[Tearling]

1) Why the fuck do you have 1200 hours in a role you don't enjoy

Vekter hasn't had the displeasure of talking to a league of legends or dead by daylight player before, clearly.

[Indie-ana Jones]

I figured this was already under the Golden Rule. I don't like this rule solely because it feels redundant.

[CMDR_Gungnir]

Catching antags isn't your only job. If this cult base is truly growing unknown in maint, then why should you care at all? You have no clue it exists, and those assistants that broke into engi to steal insulated gloves also need to be punished.

I should care because, yknow, by the time you find out they'll have haloes and the station will be sacrificed to an eldritch god and go up in flames? Why in the fuck would you pussyfoot around with an assistant stealing insuls? You get the engi his insuls back, flush the tider down disposals, then move on to things that actually matter.

But you said it's growing unknown. You don't know there's a cult. So why ignore everything else, you don't KNOW that there's anything bigger.

[Rohen_Tahir]

Catching antags isn't your only job. If this cult base is truly growing unknown in maint, then why should you care at all? You have no clue it exists, and those assistants that broke into engi to steal insulated gloves also need to be punished.

I should care because, yknow, by the time you find out they'll have haloes and the station will be sacrificed to an eldritch god and go up in flames? Why in the fuck would you pussyfoot around with an assistant stealing insuls? You get the engi his insuls back, flush the tider down disposals, then move on to things that actually matter.

I guess all I can say is, as someone who's been playing on and off for about ten years, you're about as wrong as anyone's ever been.

As someone who has like 1200 security hours ((would not recommend btw)) I suggest you just play like a few rounds of security on an LRP server and attempt to do what you're suggesting. I promise it will not go well.

It won't go well but for reasons completely unrelated to undicovered cult with halos in maint.

[nianjiilical]

i highly doubt the admins are going to ban sec for doing their job

this is more going to be used for people who consistently powergame so hard they become genuinely unpleasant to play with, not people who just grab cable cuffs and a flash just in case they need to defend themselves

[Omega_DarkPotato]

I figured this was already under the Golden Rule. I don't like this rule solely because it feels redundant.

It sets an expectation, and gives us admins something else to point to aside from r1.
rule 11 is redundant because not being a bigot kind of falls under not being a dick, however I would find it hard to argue that rule 11's implementation hasn't helped clean up the servers and discord.

Yes, it might be "redundant" in that we have a rule to already deal with this, but it's something to point to and something admins can and probably will use when previously applying rule 1 would be difficult to sustain. Rule 1 bans are a bitch.